Well, it's official, no more Pledge of Allegiance in public schools
thanks to a Californian atheist. I figured it was just a matter of time.
It seems so odd that something that we did every day in elementary
school for the first 3 or 4 grades is now illegal.

Oh well...

TG

http://forums.simcentral.net/archive/index.php/t-29172.html

That was done back in june. . . ?

Well, we said it all through high school. The last time I went to my daughters school for a morning program, we all said the pledge of allegiance. Believe what you want, but don't take away from the rest of us. If they can't say it in school, maybe they could put flags on the outside of the school bus so kids could say it just before they get on "school property," either that or when they get there maybe they can sign it...

It just popped up on HNN and I didn't know it was old news!

Still behind the curve, <sigh>

I haven’t said it in school since I was like 9 (that’s 4th grade for ya)... And honestly I didn’t and don’t miss it all that much.

It’s not a big deal to me one-way or the other.
Must be because I was raised by an atheist and it has the word god in it

I dont believe in God and I think its important to keep God in the pledge becuase thats our history. religion was an important part of forming our country

The pledge was to the flag and country originally, under God was added at a later date. Most countries have some sort of pledge of allegiance to their country. It is supposed to promote patriostism. I have seen better foreign patriots abroad that I have seen here in our own country. That is a true shame.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 09-14-2005).]

"In God We Trust" on money will be next.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: "In God We Trust" on money will be next.

Yes and all our money says In God We Trust and I bet that bastard don't throw his money away.
Don

quote Originally posted by richfiero: I dont believe in God and I think its important to keep God in the pledge becuase thats our history. religion was an important part of forming our country

Here here. I wonder how many atheists fought in the revolutionary war? I mean now are they going to be modifying the constitution and the decleration of Independance because it says god?

..... now all we have to avoid is giving the president some whiteout, he'll either use it or eat it. either way its bad.

I think they should just change the pledge back to it's original form.

GL

Where does the Constitution say god in it?

The " under god" part was added during the communist witch hunt, it's NOT part of the original pledge.

The Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist Minister that did NOT use under god, that was forced in there by the Knights of Columbus in 1954.

He was also a Socialist.... or as the right wingers would call him... a commie :-) Also was forced out of his church for his views

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html

Red Skelton (wondering if I should be scopes checking this...) had something to say about the pledge and maybe a warning of what just happened...

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

Get God out of the pledge and restore it to it's intended meaning.

http://www.restorethepledge.com/

Keep it as is regardless of the fact that it was changed to promote a religon.

http://www.keepthepledge.com/

quote Originally posted by Tugboat: I think they should just change the pledge back to it's original form. GL

yep! "under God" wasn't added until 195x

In FACT, the words "in god we trust" were added to paper money around that time as well. Before it had been "E pluribus Unum"...

An interesting bit of trivia, the "under God" pledge alteration was proposed in bill format by a democrat.

Say it in your house before you go to school, but don't bring it there. I remember someone got detention back when I was in highschool because he didn't want to stand for Oh Canada.. thats all fine and dandy.I'm sure he was just trying to stir **** up, but if I don't want to say the pledge in your schools, do I have to?

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: Here here. I wonder how many atheists fought in the revolutionary war? I mean now are they going to be modifying the constitution and the decleration of Independance because it says god? ..... now all we have to avoid is giving the president some whiteout, he'll either use it or eat it. either way its bad.

God in the Constitution? Not in there bud

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

God in the Declaration? Not there either... does mention a Creator once though.

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

You should read up on the people who were major players in writing and getting these documents in place. Two things they feared seem to have been religons and banks. Franklin's brother had been imprisoned for disagreeing with views of the Puritan Church and Ben was almost tithed to the church as a child. He escaped being an indentured servant to his brother by running away to PA. Jefferson and Franklin understood the danger of banks and religons that held power. There is a lot of meaning behind those documents and the claims that our founders are christians isn't cut from whole cloth. Franklin knew how to play the game though, and was a member and donor to ALL of the congregations in Pennsylvania, He had a private pew in one church he never actually attended, and was a major donor for building the local synagogue. But he didn't trust any of them to have a hand in the government. He saw that danger amongst many others. Most forget that most of the Constitution is there to put shackles on the federal government to avoid much of what it has become. It's dangerous to mess with it, an amazing document that has been shredded of meaning over the last century, with the worst damage in the last couple of decades.

Also remember what the pledge was written for... a specific celebration that got turned into a requirement by the government.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Also remember what the pledge was written for... a specific celebration that got turned into a requirement by the government.

I believe in God but of my own free will. I really have no problem with it not being in the pledge. At least not as much of a problem with having to cite the pledge. "The Land Of The Free" forcing you to say something you might not believe in.

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: Where does the Constitution say god in it?

I didn't mean that it actually had it in it, I am not sure, I just view it as there is no ground to stand on to change something your not being forced to say in the first place.... I am just recently out of highschool and I don't remember anyone forcing the atheists to say the pledge under threat of suspension. Even in our student handbook for all four years of highschool it said the pledge was optional.

So it was just a hypothetical.... sorry

I posted this in another thread, but it seemed appropriate here, too...

Well, after reading some of the ruling, I have to agree with it. I personally have no problem whatsoever with "under God" being in the pledge, but the words were added, so that schoolchildren every day would pledge their faith in God.

"when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."" source: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/

Congress ammended the pledge, and President Eisenhower signed it into law. That pretty clearly violates Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

The only arguing point is, does the mention of "God" endorse a religion? You cannot argue that Congress passed a law making the change to the pledge. So, is that change an endorsement of a religion? I would have to say at the very least, it endorses a monotheistic religion, if not one specific denomination.

I know it's a touchy subject, and like I said, it doesn't bother me that it's in there. I say "Under God" when I recite the pledge, but if we're going to go by the letter of the Constitution, I think the 9th Circuit Court may be right on this one.

And yes, that does open a can of worms about "In God We Trust" on our money; saying "So help me God" in an oath of office, etc. There are many references to God in our government. But, how many of them were mandated by Congress and signed into law by the President?

I don't see why people get offended when God is mentioned. If you don't believe thats fine, but why go and take it away from everyone else. I'm not American, but I dont think the pledge of allegiance has any adverse effects on people. It seems to promote patriotism. I wish there was something like that in Canadian schools. I dont want to sound like I'm bashing a certain group of people, but there have been plenty of times where I've heard kids in school say things like, "I hate Canada, this place sucks" and blah blah blah. 90% of the time they were kids who immigrated here and it pissed me off to no end. You're entitled to your opinion but if you don't like this country, go back to where you came from where it might be war torn, where you might be border line poor, unemployed, or persecuted for your beliefs. Canada and the United States are some of the best countries you could possibly live in and you should be proud of the heritage they were founded on, even if that means the involvement of God.

Sometimes I think people perceive patriotism as the act of blindly following your country's leader or directions. I see patriotism as the appreciation and enforcement of the opportunity of living a good life amongst your neighbours, family, and friends.

------------------

quote Originally posted by doublec4: If you don't believe thats fine, but why go and take it away from everyone else.

Well, the flip side of that argument is, If you believe, that's fine, but why make EVERYONE say it?

I am excited for when I have to go to court in the next couple of years though, I get to put my hand on a TV guide instead of a bible!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Well, the flip side of that argument is, If you believe, that's fine, but why make EVERYONE say it?

I never said you HAVE to say it, just dont complain and take it away. I think somebody else mentioned that it was optional anyways.

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 09-14-2005).]

quote Originally posted by doublec4: I never said you HAVE to say it, just dont complain and take it away. I think somebody else mentioned that it was optional anyways.

That's just it, it's a led recitation of the pledge in school. That's one reason it's ruled unconstitutional.

That was me, and It was OPTIONAL in my PUBLIC school. But seriously stuff like this is just a gateway to changing many many things... like for example the money thing, how much money do you think its gonna cost to circulate all new money and make the old stuff void?

Well, the issue they dealt with was whether or not the kids know they have the right to refuse. If a teacher knows it's optional, but the children think it's mandatory, then legally it's treated as mandatory.

Seriously, how many elementary school age kids are going to look at an adult teacher and tell them saying the Pledge of Allegiance violates their civil rights and they would prefer to opt out of saying it?

Consideration of whether or not it's optional, and whether or not the children can reasonably be expected to know they can refuse to say it were taken into account in the decision.

Like I said, it doesn't bother me, but it does seem that according to the letter of the law they made the right decision.

As for changing money, if that were to happen, the cost wouldn't be much. They'd just change the printing on new series and destroy the old as it's taken out of circulation. It's not like you'd have to turn in your old money for new. With the custom state quarters and redesigns of the paper money, it's obviously not a difficult thing to do.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-14-2005).]

well about the money, we've pretty much changed all of it out there already. didn't see anyone complaining about the new quarters, buffalo nickels or the superbills. i don't think the money is the point. when you take a child and force upon them something they may not believe in or understand, that is wrong.
what about kids whose parents are raising their children as islamic or budist? also think about it in reverse. how would you like your kids to have to recite an oath "one nation, under budda". this is why you can't have religion, of any sorts, in schools.
my only problem with this whole case is that our public schools have a lot bigger problems to deal with than the pledge.

I remember way back when - we said the pledge ( even remember when they added the "under God" part ) and then we followed the pledge with the Lord's prayer. Didn't have to say it if you didn't want to.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: God in the Constitution? Not in there bud http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

That is a tough one, you can't help but to wonder if they had God in mind when they wrote this refering to the Blessings of...

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Yet, it is made very clear in the 1st Amendment that they neither condone or condemn the practice of religion...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

quote God in the Declaration? Not there either... does mention a Creator once though.

It actually mentions God once, Creator once and refers to a Supreme Judge of the world...

" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

" We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,..."

quote Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O: It actually mentions God once, Creator once and refers to a Supreme Judge of the world... " We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,..."

That was my last gig. Had to give it up though as the hours were murder...

quote Originally posted by sostock: well about the money, we've pretty much changed all of it out there already. didn't see anyone complaining about the new quarters, buffalo nickels or the superbills. i don't think the money is the point. when you take a child and force upon them something they may not believe in or understand, that is wrong.

I think "force" is a strong word to use. If force were used, I think it would be as isolated as many other crimes or indescretions that you hear about these days. I'm hard pressed to remember hearing about any incident where a complaint was made about a person being forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance- though there are many less 'tintilating' things that are ever reported in the news these days...

quote what about kids whose parents are raising their children as islamic or budist? also think about it in reverse. how would you like your kids to have to recite an oath "one nation, under budda". this is why you can't have religion, of any sorts, in schools. my only problem with this whole case is that our public schools have a lot bigger problems to deal with than the pledge.

I don't think most people would have a problem with a person replacing "God" with Budda, or catfish, or maple tree... as long as it was something that they truely believed in as a force greater than themselves- which is the most meaningful way to express sincerety.

As far as the problems schools have to deal with, when does one stop peeling the way the layers that were meant to promote a strong sense of community and togetherness, and start holding teachers to incredible standards which allow them so very little latitude to control a classroom, where unruly students have more rights than the rest of the class, and where the blame for our students poor performance lies so much more with the parents of those students than the teachers?

Show me an average child without mental disabilities who is not doing well in school, and I'll show you a disfunctional family.

quote Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O: What! You got every Sunday off, some people don't even get that!

I have to admit that "Supreme Judge of the world" looks good on my resume.

quote Originally posted by richfiero: I dont believe in God and I think its important to keep God in the pledge becuase thats our history. religion was an important part of forming our country

It's not really our history, actually. The phrase "under God" was added during the early part of the cold war in the mid 1950's as a slap in the face to members of the American Communist party, the reasoning being that they, being professed athiests, would be unable to say the pledge and could then be identified and ostracized.

Pretty chicken shite if you ask me, but that's what the mindset was back then, like McCarthyism and the same bunch of people that stripped Americans of Japanese ancestry of billions of dollars of property (that they never got back, homes, antiques, valuables, nothing).

As far as saying the Pledge, I said it all the time in the Scouts and in school growing up and just ignored the "under God" part. It's meaningless, just a remnant of a politcally more backward time. If I needed to say the pledge nowadays I would simply not say the "under God" portion at all, not make a sound. My choice, and if I get ostracised or discriminated against because of that then that just shows how retarded people can be.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's just it, it's a led recitation of the pledge in school. That's one reason it's ruled unconstitutional.

Ah I see... Still, I think its harmless.

Also, why does the word 'God' immediately imply a Christian belief? Other religions have gods under specific names. "God" can just be a general reference to the higher power of whatever you believe in.

quote Originally posted by Phil: I remember way back when - we said the pledge ( even remember when they added the "under God" part ) and then we followed the pledge with the Lord's prayer. Didn't have to say it if you didn't want to.

And it is very common for children in religious communities to be ostracized, bullied, and sometimes beaten for not following the pack. In West Texas highschool football, if you want on the team you better pretend you're Christian if you're not actually one, otherwise you'll find yourself marginalized and discriminated against.

JazzMan

quote [B]Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O:[/B Show me an average child without mental disabilities who is not doing well in school, and I'll show you a disfunctional family.

well you got me there. what's a functional family?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Nobody is taking religion away from you or anyone. Is religion, particularly Christianity, so weak and ineffective that government is needed to push it on everyone? New citizens have to say the Pledge, and if they're not religious or don't believe in God (as used here, presume Christian because of the history and context) does that mean that they are lying when saying the Pledge? If someone says the Pledge and doesn't mean part of it, does that invalidate the whole pledge? What should we do to those people? Should they be punished or treated differently somehow? What if a new citizen refuses, on principle, to say "under God" because they don't recognize the Christian God? No, nobody is trying to kill religion. In fact, by keeping religion out of legislation and government control it keeps it free from interference and domination, and corruption. The only religious governments that have survived have been monothiestic, and even they have been subject to ongoing civil wars and civil strife as the subjugated religions fight to try and beat the dominant religions, and the dominant religions try to destroy or convert the minor religions. The people here that want a Christian government wouldn't be so happy once Islam takes over, and if they succeed in breeching The Wall there's not really anything to keep that from happening. I for one don't want to live under an Islamic government, nor a Christian government. JazzMan

I'm not saying anybody is trying to eliminate Christianity.

I'm wondering why everybody gets so worked up over the reference to "God" in a nation's anthem, or documents, or money. I'm not a backwards person, I know times change but sometimes I think this is getting to the point where its ridiculous.

My point is that the elimination of the Pledge of Allegiance may be another step to weakening the patriotism of your country. It may not seem like a big deal right now, but things add up and over time it all takes its toll. One thing I admire about the USA is the patriotism of its people, and I'd hate to see it fade.

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 09-14-2005).]