He may have been clearly committing a crime. News agencies will always report that someone is "suspected" of committing a crime until/unless that person is convicted of that crime. So he could have be driving a forklift out of the store with a stolen pallet of diapers in full view of 20 cameras and the news would still say that he is suspected of shoplifting.
It's not just news agencies. Last time I checked, in U.S. law, we still have a little tradition called "innocent until proven guilty."
Still, no matter he guilt or innocence of shoplifting, I can't see how the LPs are not guilty of manslaughter at the least and murder at the most. It will be interesting to see what they get charged with, considering all the witnesses.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-17-2005).]
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11:20 AM
firstfiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: york,pa,17403 Registered: Dec 2000
If the LP is on the clock acting on behalf of Wal-Mart, then Wal-Mart is liable, just as the individual LPs are liable.
Granted, WM shouldn't have to have a training class to teach their employees that it's bad to kill the customers, but any security personnel should be trained in how much force they are authorized and allowed to use.
Thats insane..If They are trained to not restrain someone and then something like this happens then how could they be liable. I don't know about thier training but our lp's at lowes are absolutly taught not to restrain people. get all the info. you can as they leave. If a Lowes lp did something like this thier is no way you would have grounds to sue us over the actions of one over zealous lp.
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07:20 PM
firstfiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: york,pa,17403 Registered: Dec 2000
It's wal-mart policy to aggressively pursue shoplifters, using force if necessary. I believe they should be held accountable, as well as the LP workers.
If that statement is true and it is walmarts policy then I agree with you 100%
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07:21 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Thats insane..If They are trained to not restrain someone and then something like this happens then how could they be liable. I don't know about thier training but our lp's at lowes are absolutly taught not to restrain people. get all the info. you can as they leave. If a Lowes lp did something like this thier is no way you would have grounds to sue us over the actions of one over zealous lp.
That's an important IF. But you can sue either way, you just may not get as the same judgement depending on how they are trained. If Wal-Mart trains or condones the use of physical force to restrain a suspected shopplifter, then they're going to be hung out to dry on this one.
Take your Lowes as an example. You're trained not to restrain people, but if a Lowe's employee did so, Lowe's could still be liable. How? Negligence. Was the person properly trained? Did they KNOW they were not suppose to use force? Etc. There are many different ways this can go, and a number of those possibilities will hold both the LPs and Wal-Mart liable.
I predict their stock will drop at least 3 cents, before rebounding a few hours later. (sad, but probably true)
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08:55 PM
Aug 18th, 2005
firstfiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: york,pa,17403 Registered: Dec 2000
That's an important IF. But you can sue either way, you just may not get as the same judgement depending on how they are trained. If Wal-Mart trains or condones the use of physical force to restrain a suspected shopplifter, then they're going to be hung out to dry on this one.
Take your Lowes as an example. You're trained not to restrain people, but if a Lowe's employee did so, Lowe's could still be liable. How? Negligence. Was the person properly trained? Did they KNOW they were not suppose to use force? Etc. There are many different ways this can go, and a number of those possibilities will hold both the LPs and Wal-Mart liable.
I predict their stock will drop at least 3 cents, before rebounding a few hours later. (sad, but probably true)
Believe me thier would be no doubt. Even if we hire someone to be a loader or run a cash register they watch a video and take a test on handeling shop lifters. You are told many times that you never restrain anyone. If your an lp believe me its drilled into thier head. The problem with our wonderfull country is you will still find some attorny that will think it's a good idea to sue and lowes or walmart in this instance will pay them a nice chunk of money to go away and get it out of the new ASAP.
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06:55 PM
Gokart Member
Posts: 4635 From: Mashpee, Ma. USA Registered: May 99
It amazes me that I haven't seen anything on the news or in the papers about this incident. I wonder if there was some money changing hands somewhere to keep this from getting too deep into the news media
[This message has been edited by Gokart (edited 08-18-2005).]
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07:07 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40912 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
The actions of the LPs, however criminal (and against "official" policy) they were, were performed on behalf of the company, on the clock, and on company property. It could be argued that the company was negligent by employing the persons in the first place. "They should have known." The company is going to take it up the butt for the LPs actions. (Not arguing whether that would be right or wrong, in this case.)
It amazes me that I haven't seen anything on the news or in the papers about this incident. I wonder if there was some money changing hands somewhere to keep this from getting too deep into the news media
My thoughts exactly. If it were true, and made any legit media sources, CNN or FOX would have been all over it. No amount of money would have stopped them from a headline story.
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07:28 PM
G-Nasty Member
Posts: 2099 From: woodlands,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2001
I remember hearing the story on the news. But its simple-if they found diapers without a receipt then dude was properly apprehended. In Texas, there are laws that allow anyone to use deadly force for the protection of property against theft.
That principle is going to be argued in court.
Hot ass tar and roughing the so-called criminal is a Texas tradition. One little mistake and the State makes you pay By golly, he WAS an evilDOERRRrr!!!!
Confucious says: "The easiest way to rob a bank is to own it"
OUT>
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07:47 PM
Aug 19th, 2005
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Maybe its just because I have lost count of how many times I have been victimized by thieves, but I am having a hard time mustering up any sympathy for this guy. He stole from the store, and resisted being restrained by the security. Do stupid **** like that and you take your chances. I also can't help but feel that he must have had some sort of prior medical condition that contributed to his death. I guess time will tell once and autopsy is performed.
I do feel sorry for his family though, especially his newborn who is going to grow up fatherless because he daddy chose to be a thief.
I agree with you. Thieves are high on my list of low lifes, right after Murders and Rapists. It dont matter to me what they steal or how old they are (as long as there not little kids). They chose to steal and deserve everything they get. If somebody is that desperate for diapers, Id buy them some myself if they asked. It did seem that this one got a little out of hand, but how did they know that if they let him up he didnt have a gun or knife on him. I do feel sorry for his family, but he brought it on himself....no sympathy from me. If I were a judge, Id throw anything to do with it out of court. But Walmart will prob settle up just to keep it out of the news more.
*Note...if you plan on stealing something, do it on a cool day and wear a shirt
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09:47 AM
Spektrum-87GT Member
Posts: 1601 From: Yorktown, VA Registered: Aug 2001
I agree with you. Thieves are high on my list of low lifes, right after Murders and Rapists. It dont matter to me what they steal or how old they are (as long as there not little kids). They chose to steal and deserve everything they get. If somebody is that desperate for diapers, Id buy them some myself if they asked. It did seem that this one got a little out of hand, but how did they know that if they let him up he didnt have a gun or knife on him. I do feel sorry for his family, but he brought it on himself....no sympathy from me. If I were a judge, Id throw anything to do with it out of court. But Walmart will prob settle up just to keep it out of the news more.
*Note...if you plan on stealing something, do it on a cool day and wear a shirt
I'd respond, but I believe your post does a good enough job explaining what kind of person you are. What a heartless pig.
[This message has been edited by Spektrum-87GT (edited 08-19-2005).]
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04:38 PM
PFF
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dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
I'd respond, but I believe your post does a good enough job explaining what kind of person you are. What a heartless pig.
He was a bad guy... plan and simple... if he died as a result of his own stupid actions well then you cant feel sorry for him... just as I didnt feel bad for roy getting mauled by his white tiger... or a street racer who crashes his car... or a drunk driver who drives off the road and kills him self... 1 of those examples arent bad guys... but all of them died as a result of his own stupid actions...
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05:07 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Originally posted by dezie36: He was a bad guy... plan and simple... if he died as a result of his own stupid actions well then you cant feel sorry for him.
He committed a bad act. Desperation maybe. What was going on in his head, his heart ? Probably but not sure he was guilty. His stupid actions (alledged) deserved an arrest. Stupid actions of others caused his death.
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06:12 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
He committed a bad act. Desperation maybe. What was going on in his head, his heart ? Probably but not sure he was guilty. His stupid actions (alledged) deserved an arrest. Stupid actions of others caused his death.
so there are different degrees of evil now? **** that sorry, but bad is bad, and if you do bad you have to expect the worse. Ive never commited a crime in my life (speeding doesnt count)... and if I do I expcet the worse for it...
Good intentions or not... he was doing wrong, and anythign that happend to him after he was doing wrong was his fault... like if a drunk driver is rear ended and throwing through his window and dies... its not the fault of the driver that hit him... its the fault of the drunk for being on the road.
Dont get me wrong I feel bad for his family and friends... but they lost him because their father, husband, friend because he was a criminal.
[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-19-2005).]
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06:18 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Has anyone heard of any PROOF that he was shoplifting? You know, like finding the diapers on him and no receipt? From the information we have heard, there's nothing to suggest he has been proven guilty of anything.
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06:22 PM
FieroAurora Member
Posts: 1262 From: North Olmsted Ohio Registered: Mar 2004
Something doesn't sound right. This story could be accurate, but it doesn't sound like standard protocol.
Yes! If you steal something from Wal-Mart or any retail store, they will tackle you to the ground. I've seen this happened right before my eyes. But Wal-Mart always has at least three or so guys working at any given time. Just as the story said: Five Wal-Mart LP guys.
Once they tackle you down, then they pick you up and take you to their lost prevention room.
.
I respect your opinion but being that I work for a retail store... we are told there is no tackling all 4 stores I have worked for all retail all I have been LP there is no reason to tackle or chase you are there to deter the theft and call the police if you see it.. if you can catch them without hurting them by all means do it but no no tackling chasing... maybe it's just an Ohio thing... who knows
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06:23 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
Has anyone heard of any PROOF that he was shoplifting? You know, like finding the diapers on him and no receipt? From the information we have heard, there's nothing to suggest he has been proven guilty of anything.
If thats the case... then Ill retract my statments... but if hes guilty then that was the risk he took when commiting a crime... and if he was innocent... well then those guys should be charged with manslaughter and sent up the creek for a very long time.
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06:26 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
so there are different degrees of evil now? **** that sorry, but bad is bad, and if you do bad you have to expect the worse. Ive never commited a crime in my life (speeding doesnt count)... and if I do I expcet the worse for it...
Do you hear what you just said? You make no distinction between various types of evil - "bad is bad" as you say, then you go on to say "speeding doesn't count." Well sorry, but if you feel there are no different degrees of evil or wrongdoing, then you need to die. Speeding is against the law and since "bad is bad" someone should kill you for being evil.
You're the worst type of holier than thou judges. Everyone else should pay the ultimate price. Stole a candy bar and got killed? Too bad. But when YOU break the law, and yes, speeding is against the law, it doesn't count.
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06:27 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
Do you hear what you just said? You make no distinction between various types of evil - "bad is bad" as you say, then you go on to say "speeding doesn't count." Well sorry, but if you feel there are no different degrees of evil or wrongdoing, then you need to die. Speeding is against the law and since "bad is bad" someone should kill you for being evil.
You're the worst type of holier than thou judges. Everyone else should pay the ultimate price. Stole a candy bar and got killed? Too bad. But when YOU break the law, and yes, speeding is against the law, it doesn't count.
Hmm do you want to know why it doesn’t count? Because no body his harmed... if you steal your harming the business owner... or person you stole from... if you drink and drive you are hurting the people you can hit... if you hit your wife you hurt your wife... But if you see a prostitute you have done no harm to any one but your self (assuming your either single or have an open marriage).
I’ve seen way too many people who did something wrong (ie stealing, drinking and driving ext) who hurt people and got off to have any sympathy for any of them... I’m sorry but you run the risk of dying every time you commit a crime that hurts someone else... would we be having this conversation if this ******* robed a liquor store and was shot by the guy behind the counter? I don’t think so.
Hmm do you want to know why it doesn’t count? Because no body his harmed... if you steal your harming the business owner... or person you stole from... if you drink and drive you are hurting the people you can hit... if you hit your wife you hurt your wife... But if you see a prostitute you have done no harm to any one but your self (assuming your either single or have an open marriage).
I’ve seen way too many people who did something wrong (ie stealing, drinking and driving ext) who hurt people and got off to have any sympathy for any of them... I’m sorry but you run the risk of dying every time you commit a crime that hurts someone else... would we be having this conversation if this ******* robed a liquor store and was shot by the guy behind the counter? I don’t think so.
But you might harm someone.. As much as you are going to disagree.. 13.00 missing from walmart is the exact same as you speeding and not killing anyone, imo.. Either way, a law is a law in your eyes, correct?
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06:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
But you might harm someone.. As much as you are going to disagree.. 13.00 missing from walmart is the exact same as you speeding and not killing anyone, imo.. Either way, a law is a law in your eyes, correct?
If Im going 5mph over the speed limit on the freeway... who am I going to hurt?
But what if I want to do methamphetamine or coke in the privacy of my own home? You can't say thats inherently bad.. Sure, it might lead to theft and or other behaviour.. But chances are it won't, so whats the problem?
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07:37 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
But what if I want to do methamphetamine or coke in the privacy of my own home? You can't say thats inherently bad.. Sure, it might lead to theft and or other behaviour.. But chances are it won't, so whats the problem?
Your half right... coke (not crack) is usually used by high end people... store owners, politicians, actors ext... METH on the other hand is typically used by the lower-class. People on Meth are more likely to steal to get money for the drug (I know from experience on that).
I’ve stated my feelings on drugs before... soft drugs like weed, shrooms, saliva (is legal) should be legal, and regulated by the government... but hard drugs, coke, meth, crack (made from coke) heroin should stay outlawed.
Edit: meth can be made in your house... in a tub... usually made in the basement... and has a high tendency to explode... thus hurting family members not involved in the drugs ie children.
[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-19-2005).]
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07:43 PM
malacite Member
Posts: 2213 From: Casselberry Fl 32707 Registered: Oct 2001
Another thing that gets me is he is "suspected" of shoplifting. Now, as has been pointed out he couldn't have been carrying out a bag of diapers without it being obvious he had them, and if he'd stuffed a few down his pants, that would have become obvious after he was taken to the hospital.
i think "suspected" is a technicality. thats why police officers who watch a crime occur, will then arrest them and call in "suspect in custody"
he's suspected until he goes to court...in this case... never.
I’ve stated my feelings on drugs before... soft drugs like weed, shrooms, saliva (is legal) should be legal, and regulated by the government... but hard drugs, coke, meth, crack (made from coke) heroin should stay outlawed.
I've stated before and I'm not ashamed to do it again, I had a meth problem, and I never hurt anybody.. Hell, I know people who smoke pot who are more harmful than I was..
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08:51 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
No its not(not to sound offensive but) ... because speeding is by definition a victimless crime... the key word is victimless.
Show me a legal definition of speeding that says it's victimless. By YOUR definition it may be victimless, but you're just using that as an excuse to cover your own hipocracy.
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08:57 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
i think "suspected" is a technicality. thats why police officers who watch a crime occur, will then arrest them and call in "suspect in custody"
he's suspected until he goes to court...in this case... never.
Innocent until proven guilty should never be considered a "technicality." But, has there been any evidence presented that suggests he was guilty? All I've read from the reports is the LPs suspected him of stealing. No one said they saw him stealing or that any stolen property was recovered from his corpse.
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09:00 PM
PFF
System Bot
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
If I steal a bag of diapers... who am I going to hurt?
The company who makes the diapers, the company who sells the diapers... if enough people feel that Huggies is a big enough company and they wont miss it... well then eventually sales will fall and people will be laid off... so you’ve now hurt the family of the man or woman laid off... There’s the victim
If speeding has a victim... please tell me who... you show me the victim and Ill retract my statement... but there isn’t any... in fact if im caught speeding I actually help because I pay 90 bucks to the state… thus giving extra money to this wonderful country.
Your problem is you are blinded because this guy died... over some huggies... what if he had been steeling dvds... or jewelry... or something more expensive.. and the same situation played out.... would he still be "innocent"?
If the crime you’ve committed hurts some one you have entered the black and anything that happens to you as a result is your fault... and if you cant admit that had he not been in a position that made the LP thing he was stealing something (which means he probably was) then he wouldn’t be dead... his actions caused his death.
Like I’ve said... no matter what the out come, I feel the lp officers should be tried for manslaughter... after all there is no reason to take human life... BUT he was committing a crime and again that’s the risk you take.
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09:10 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Yes, "everybody does it" - or at least 71 percent of licensed drivers, according to the American Automobile Association. Nationwide, 13,713 died last year in accidents caused by speeding. That's about 400 more fatalities than were caused by drunken driving in 2002. Wisconsin statistics are similar, according to the Department of Transportation, with 270 fatalities attributed to speeding, compared to 292 to drunken driving. <"
I'm blinded, but you think it's okay for you to break the laws YOU want to? You're a peice of work. Driving drunk is a victimless crime - if you don't hit anyone. But driving drunk contributes to the chances of you getting in an accident. Speeding is similar. If you're speeding, you are increasing the chances that you will get in a wreck and injure yourself or others. But I'm the one that's bind.
You're a lost cause. I hope you get the "justice" you wish for others.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-19-2005).]
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09:31 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
I'm blinded, but you think it's okay for you to break the laws YOU want to? You're a peice of work. Driving drunk is a victimless crime - if you don't hit anyone. But driving drunk contributes to the chances of you getting in an accident. Speeding is similar. If you're speeding, you are increasing the chances that you will get in a wreck and injure yourself or others. But I'm the one that's bind.
You're a lost cause. I hope you get the "justice" you wish for others.
There is no possibility that a 5mph increase in my speed will ever ever ever create a larger chance for an accident (be cause we are talking speeding here not reckless driving... which is 15mph and up). Now drunk driving is reckless and dangerous and any drunk driver disserves what the shoplifter got...
and that real mature of you... but I wont get the "justice" I wash on people like that because I never do nor will I commit a crime that hurts another human being in any way shape or form.... sorry you wont be getting your wish.
The old saying stands... if you cant do the time don’t do the crime.
I'm not sure... I'd say some of you need to do some research….
Yes… The guy was stealing whatever… To die in this manor is beyond any reasonable amount of force, especially by persons with what can only be described as the absolute minimum training in what are typically POLICE matters. Store Security by any name is the lowest form of "law enforcement" that exists.
Looks like some people here don't get things like "gross negligence" "criminal negligence" "excessive force" and several other well established laws and/or legal precedents. These are Wal-mart employees on the clock. What the victim family's lawyers will claim, if they are worth a dime, is that Wal-mart training and supervision was negligent and/or incompetent. At the VERY least the Wal-mart employees in question should be held to the same standards as everyone frequently claims Police should be held to in the same conditions. IE Police would be suspended or assigned desk work while Internal Affairs or some civilian oversight group investigated the death of this guy. After what the officers and the municipality in question would still be sued and likely settle for millions of taxpayer dollars.
Force far less than this resulted in the Rodney King riots in LA and Rodney King as time has proven several times now is a good definition of the term "scum bag."
Wal-mart is about to get hit with one of the biggest lawsuits they have ever faced. And they have faced plenty of large ones. If this doesn't settle before trial, expect hundreds of millions in punitive and other damages. Even after appeal.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurasic Park)
I’m sorry but your the lost cause here.... what if he did steal the diapers... and on his way out he didn’t want to get caught so he killed one of those LP officers instead of dying him self... would you still be defending him? He committed a crime, though his punishment was extreme and unnecessary, it was the risk he took when he decided to steal.
And for some reason you cant get your head around that. If someone brakes into a house to steal their tv... and gets shot by the owner... oh or better yet he trips on his way out on the icy side walk and breaks his back... are you one of those people who feel he should be able to sue the family he stole from and win?
Like he’s the victim or something… he paid the ultimate price for his act… and that was the price for those diapers… it sucks but that’s the way it is sometimes. Understanding that is key… understanding and learning from his mistake is our job.
Edit: Do we blame a gun manufacture for a Childs accidental death… or the parents who left a loaded gun where the child could reach it? Do we blame the maker of a knife because some dumbass sucked on the blade and cut his tongue? Do we blame the maker of a lawn mower when an idiot runs over and cuts off his foot?
NOOOOO! Well at least I don’t. So maybe stores should just have a sign saying “WARNING: STEALING COULD RESULT IN DEATH” There now any criminal who accidentally gets killed while trying to steal from someplace had proper knowledge what could happen to him for stealing.
Edit2: hmm I dont know if I like that... it almost makes me sound like I think the LP did nothing wrong... and yes of course they did... and should be locked up... but my point is hes just as much to blame as the LP officers.
[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-19-2005).]
Actually criminals have sued and WON in cases where they were injured in home break in. Like I said... people need to do some basic research.
The law about shooting a criminal in your house or on your property is anything but sound. Shooting in "self defence" has gotten more than a fwe people in jail for years.
I don't for a second excuse theft.
The issue is level of force. If Police did this "everyone" would be screaming abuse of power and a hundred other things. There was no reason to hold this guy against pavement or anything else that was easily 140-160*F or more. 120*F is well recognized as scalding to the point of fatal by building codes and others.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-19-2005).]
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09:59 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
Actually criminals have sued and WON in cases where they were injured in home break in. Like I said... people need to do some basic research.
The law about shooting a criminal in your house or on your property is anything but sound. Shooting in "self defence" has gotten more than a fwe people in jail for years.
I didnt mean to say that he couldnt win... my point was that there are people out there who think they should win... and these people dont want to blame the person who was in the wrong (first, in the case of walmart lp) but blame others.
Im saying I have no sympthoy for the criminal who through actions of his own caused his death...
Personally I think if you do something wrong you take the chance of dying... weither it be brake into someones home, stealing from a store, or drunk driving.
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10:10 PM
dezie36 Member
Posts: 2501 From: Moved to Okemos, Mi, USA Registered: Feb 2005
Originally posted by theogre: The issue is level of force. If Police did this "everyone" would be screaming abuse of power and a hundred other things. There was no reason to hold this guy against pavement or anything else that was easily 140-160*F or more. 120*F is well recognized as scalding to the point of fatal by building codes and others.
Actually i think crime levels would drop... just imagine death penilty for any crime commited... would you really want to steal a pair of diapers?
I know I know thats uber extream and should not and will never become law... but somethign has to be done to scare people out of commiting crime... crime rates are too high... maybe im just bias because my house has been broken into more then once... and ive been muged.
Yes... you take the chance of dying in any crime. You take that chance just driving down the road.
If the LA police had beat Rodney King to death... would you give that a wave? It's the same thing. More than the same since the Wal-Mart employees are anything but wannabe cops at best.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-19-2005).]