You can exercise it all you want but DO NOT make laws based on your religious values.
Ok, you won't quote the letter, I will. Note the phrase "wall of separation" which is NOT in the constitution, but is the phrase you folks use to restrict the "free exercise of".
Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter Digg This Page! Add Delicious Link! Add Reddit Link!
Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature - as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only that on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."
The letter was the subject of intense scrutiny by Jefferson, and he consulted a couple of New England politicians to assure that his words would not offend while still conveying his message: it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion.
Note: The bracketed section in the second paragraph had been blocked off for deletion, though it was not actually deleted in his draft of the letter. It is included here for completeness. Reflecting upon Jefferson's knowledge that his letter was far from a mere personal correspondence, he deleted the block, he says in the margin, to avoid offending members of his party in the eastern states.
This is a transcript of the letter as stored online at the Library of Congress, and reflects Jefferson's spelling and punctuation.
Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson Jan.1.1802.
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11:23 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Rome fell because of bad government and policy. It stopped giving a crap about its people and it began to fall apart.. BUT ultimatly it was the FAULT of the government.
Incidentally the founders of this country knew this and this is why we have a REPUBLIC whis is loosly based on Roman government.. Senators... representing the state.. Representitves... representing the people and a non bias non partisan Judicial branch... which we dont really have anymore.
The government killed Rome and the Government is killing the US.
Your religion is established in the governemnt, many politicians are christian or catholic and in so many words are wordsmithing laws which ARE in EFFECT establising a religious doctroin ALL must follow.
I didn't see it for a long time but the more I look at the picture the more the "magic eye" revealed to me.
Christianity has over run the government.. Its obvious to me.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
Originally posted by texasfiero: Did it perhaps loose its moral backbone?
No.. the government went corrupt.. Just like ours is now. The similarities between the roman government and ours at present are striking and terrifying. Our government has changed ALOT since it was established and has re-written many of the controls that once were the domain of the people for the people by the people.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
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11:28 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Your religion is establising in the governemnt, many politicians are christian or catholic and in so many words wordsmithing laws whic ARE in EFFECT establising a religious doctroin ALL must follow.
I didn't see it for a long time but the more I look at the picture the more the "magic eye" revealed to me.
Christianity has over run the government.. Its obvious to me.
The magic eye had nothing to do with it. The Masons did much good work, but there are some questionable things too.
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
quote
By enforcing laws it is becoming more and more apparent what religion is being established by congress and the government and is in violation with the FIRST AMENDMENT prohibiting the formation of a religious establisment.
I can call you a jackass right up front or I can do it in so many words..
Alcohol controls Abortion Gun Control Vulgarity or Cencorship Anti Drug laws Prostitution Gay marriage ban
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
Looks like a Jackass to me.
This isnt rocket science...
It's called connect the dots. Anyone with any cognitive abilities can see the picture amid the dots... Just 1....2....3....4 and there it is pretty as ya please.
Hey.. I just noticed.... you have big ears and buck theeth.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-13-2006).]
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11:36 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
By enforcing laws it is becoming more and more apparent what religion is being established by congress and the government and is in violation with the FIRST AMENDMENT prohibiting the formation of a religious establisment.
I can call you a jackass right up front or I can do it in so many words..
Alcohol controls Abortion Gun Control Vulgarity or Cencorship Anti Drug laws Prostitution Gay marriage ban
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
Looks like a Jackass to me.
Again Bill, You're bending the constitution to make it say something it DOES NOT say.
Would you have all the items and activities you listed run unrestricted.
True to liberal nature, when you can't argue the facts, fall back to name calling.
[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-13-2006).]
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11:41 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
By enforcing laws it is becoming more and more apparent what religion is being established by congress and the government and is in violation with the FIRST AMENDMENT prohibiting the formation of a religious establisment.
So we should have no laws, so there is nothing to enforce. There is no state religion, Bill. Stop being paranoid.
quote
I can call you a jackass right up front or I can do it in so many words..
There we have it, tolerance of the liberal humanist....
Alcohol controls: So, I'm wrong, we should let minors buy it and drink it? Abortion: So, I'm wrong, 33 million children; good riddance? They were all either defective or from poor parents, after all. Gun Control: So I'm wrong. Abolish the second ammendment, or did that get thrown out with, apprently, the first? Vulgarity or Cencorship: So I'm wrong. The South Park kids are good role models. Anti Drug: So I'm wrong. Driving while high on pot or heroine can't be all that bad. And the quality goes up while the price goes down, right? Isn't that the way in Amsterdam? Prostitution: Oh, yeah, I'm so wrong here. Use women (heck, in a bow to NAMBLA, young boys need love and money, too) for our own gratification. As long as they get tested and certified by the government periodically. Can't be anything bad for society here....
quote
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
Looks like a Jackass to me.
Because John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington all spanked a few hoes while knocking back a forty and passing around a joint. It's amazing that they didn't shoot each other instead of the British.
What if I refused to mow your lawn because you are a recreational drug user?
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11:43 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Vulgarity or Censorship? Wasn't that Tipper Gore's cause?
What Alcohol controls have been proposed or pushed? In our county here a referendum to allow sunday beer sales just passed last week.
Prostitution illegality has been a cause pushed by religious groups in the recent past?
You sure are blaming the Christian right for a lot of things they have little or nothing to do with.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Wrong
By enforcing laws it is becoming more and more apparent what religion is being established by congress and the government and is in violation with the FIRST AMENDMENT prohibiting the formation of a religious establisment.
I can call you a jackass right up front or I can do it in so many words..
Alcohol controls Abortion Gun Control Vulgarity or Cencorship Anti Drug laws Prostitution
On and on and on
ALL Are Christian moral battlefronts.. ALL are in contention with CIVIL LIBERTIES
Again Bill, You're bending the constitution to make it say something id DOES NOT say.
Would you have all the items and activities you listed run unrestricted.
True to liberal nature, when you can't argue the facts, fall back to name calling.
Lets see..
quote
Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Christians have been squalking and bible thumping " MORAL VALUES " regarding their religious beliefs on the following subjects...
Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
On and on and on
Congress has established laws which prohibit or strictly limit these civil liberties. Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
Well **** me...I guess you think I'm stupid.. I bet congress does too. Anyone else think I'm stupid???? COME ON.. take the shot.
I see whats happening and I'm not alone.
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11:48 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
Originally posted by 84Bill: Christians have been squalking and bible thumping " MORAL VALUES " regarding their religious beliefs on the following subjects...
Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
On and on and on
Congress has established laws which prohibit or strictly limit these civil liberties. Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
Well **** me...I guess you think I'm stupid.. I bet congress does too. Anyone else think I'm stupid???? COME ON.. take the shot.
I see whats happening and I'm not alone.
Then I'd say Congress is a TOTAL failure in enforcing the laws they've enacted.
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11:51 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by texasfiero: Then I'd say Congress is a TOTAL failure in enforcing the laws they've enacted.
Yeah... tell that to the guys in prison paying their pennance to cristions for getting cought with a controlled substanbce.. got stopped at a sobriety checkpoint... Had a gun in their car without a "permit" from the local government.... Wanted to pay a woman for sex... Played loud music that was deemed "vulgar"...
Yeah.. Ask them how well congress is doing at fighting for their civil liberties.
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11:57 PM
Nov 14th, 2006
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Most of these are actualy governed by STATE law, which is as the Constitution intended.
Alcohol I know of few, if any, FEDERAL laws regarding who may or may not consume alcohol. Plenty of state and local ordinances, but no Federal. Abortion Abortion is one of those things that the Supreme Court has actually LIBERALIZED or overturned state laws Guns On this point I agree with you, the feds are sticking their noses in and restricting things they have actually been prohibited in doing Vulgarity or Cencorship Mostly these are state and local laws as well with the exception of some pedophilia laws. A lot of TALK about doing something, but other than over the public airwaves, very little in the area of FEDERAL regulation. For instance, in some areas you can go to full nude strip clubs, in others even dancing isn't allowed, but that's not by FEDERAL rule. Drugs Again, I agree this is an area where the Feds have overstepped their bounds. Although I don't advocate the unrestricted sale and use of drugs, that too should be a state issue and not a federal one. Prostitution I know of no FEDERAL law prohibiting prostitution. There aren't any because it's legal in Nevada, that makes it a state/local regulatory matter as well. Gay marriage Currently there are no laws on a FEDERAL level prohibiting gay marriage. I think there will have to be due to the requirement of one state having to recognize another's contracts between individuals, but nothing on this so far.
So out of all your examples of outrage on the way the Feds overstep their bounds, only 2 are actually Federal issues at the moment. Maybe your anger is misdirected?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: Christians have been squalking and bible thumping " MORAL VALUES " regarding their religious beliefs on the following subjects...
Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
On and on and on
Congress has established laws which prohibit or strictly limit these civil liberties. Alcohol Abortion Guns Vulgarity or Cencorship Drugs Prostitution Gay marriage
Well **** me...I guess you think I'm stupid.. I bet congress does too. Anyone else think I'm stupid???? COME ON.. take the shot.
I see whats happening and I'm not alone.
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12:01 AM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Yeah... tell that to the guys in prison paying their pennance to cristions for getting cought with a controlled substanbce.. got stopped at a sobriety checkpoint... Had a gun in their car without a "permit" from the local government.... Wanted to pay a woman for sex... Played loud music that was deemed "vulgar"...
Yeah.. Ask them how well congress is doing at fighting for their civil liberties.
Nope, I'd say they're paying their debt to society. To their 'peers' who've chosen to OBEY the laws.
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12:02 AM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I last seen this thread it was on page 5 and basic drivel and repetition. I don't want to read all these pages so can some one tell me if anythig has changed?
Originally posted by texasfiero: Nope, I'd say they're paying their debt to society. To their 'peers' who've chosen to OBEY the laws.
They arent paying their debt to me.. I would NEVER vote to convict a drug "user" (abuser is different) a guy paying for snapper dinner or a guy who got stopped at a checkpoint.. Not me.. I believe in CIVIL liberties... not Christian based laws which counter them. These people hurt NO ONE but the christian moral faith.
DID HE or DID HE NOT offend this law (based on christian values and morals) the obvious answer is yes or no.
Doesn't matter what the laws are based on.. it's never a consideration. ( I'd like to say I'm NOT a christian and the law does not apply to me but I can't argue that ) you / I are judged by laws and convicted for violation OF them and not weather or not they apply to us.
Religion is never a consideration in the commision of the crime of paying a woman for sex... Its a law and the law is based on the morality and values held by christians and other religious folk.
If I want to pay for sex I should be allowed to do it.. IN FACT I can.. in a place called "SIN CITY" but not here.. If I did I would be convicted by my peers who STUPIDLY agree with religious values even though they themselves may not be..
Gimme one "heathen" and I'll give you a hung jury EVERY TIME.
Yeah.. you have buck teeth..
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-14-2006).]
CHRISTIAN VALUES ARE MUCH LIKE THE TAL-BAN'S too much for me
both want censorship of books movies music and tv both are very hung up on sex both appose womens rights inc choice both hate gays both want their version of gods laws to be the civil laws
why does it matter if the religious nuts are able to control federal or state or local laws the net result is the same REPRESSION, just different levels of law inforcement that are doing the repression
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
I last seen this thread it was on page 5 and basic drivel and repetition. I don't want to read all these pages so can some one tell me if anythig has changed?
rome fell and so did the evil neo-conns christians had a hand in both
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
''I know of few, if any, FEDERAL laws regarding who may or may not consume alcohol. Plenty of state and local ordinances, but no Federal.''
not after 1933 but the feds sure tryed and the mob made millions while they did there are a lot of anti-moonshine laws and inforcement remember the ATF
'' ''Vulgarity or Cencorship Mostly these are state and local laws as well with the exception of some pedophilia laws. A lot of TALK about doing something, but other than over the public airwaves, very little in the area of FEDERAL regulation. '''
what was ashcroft doing pre 9-11 ?? planning a massive raid on the xxxmovie biz instead of hunting terror, he was hung up on sex movies
then ashcroft tryed to link drugs to the war on terror
''Prostitution I know of no FEDERAL law prohibiting prostitution. There aren't any because it's legal in Nevada, that makes it a state/local regulatory matter as well.''
mann act [taking women across staid lions for immortal porpoises.] there is alot of RICO ACT inforcement on interstate rings too
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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12:42 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37649 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Well, I rated you. Somehow, I never gave you a + in all this time. I'd never rated you at all. I thought I had a LONG time ago. You're heavy one + now.
Thanks John, that’ll at least counteract the negative I got from isthiswhereiputausername in this thread.
By the way, I had you rated positive ages ago. We may not agree on much, but at least we do it in a relatively civil manner.
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12:48 AM
88GTNeverfinished Member
Posts: 1809 From: Pleasanton, CA Registered: Feb 2003
I last seen this thread it was on page 5 and basic drivel and repetition. I don't want to read all these pages so can some one tell me if anythig has changed?
No. Actually I gave up after 5 too so I am just assuming.
So many postings, so little relevance.
Show of hands: How does sexual orientatation other than your own effect you in real life and not just ranting about a belief?
Who thinks the lifestyle of others will effect yours in any way?
And if you do think it will, what is the weakness of yours that allows it to be effected?
Proof that Congress does not care to stop the establishment of a religious doctrine which consists of many federal state and local laws directly related to christian moral obligations.
They arent officially establishing a religion.. they arent stopping it either... which is equal to establishing one.
quote
Originally posted by ray b:
''I know of few, if any, FEDERAL laws regarding who may or may not consume alcohol. Plenty of state and local ordinances, but no Federal.''
not after 1933 but the feds sure tryed and the mob made millions while they did there are a lot of anti-moonshine laws and inforcement remember the ATF
'' ''Vulgarity or Cencorship Mostly these are state and local laws as well with the exception of some pedophilia laws. A lot of TALK about doing something, but other than over the public airwaves, very little in the area of FEDERAL regulation. '''
what was ashcroft doing pre 9-11 ?? planning a massive raid on the xxxmovie biz instead of hunting terror, he was hung up on sex movies
then ashcroft tryed to link drugs to the war on terror
''Prostitution I know of no FEDERAL law prohibiting prostitution. There aren't any because it's legal in Nevada, that makes it a state/local regulatory matter as well.''
mann act [taking women across staid lions for immortal porpoises.] there is alot of RICO ACT inforcement on interstate rings too
Actually there are federal mandates handed to the states on how to "construct" the laws... or "federal funds" (MY MONEY) will be withheld.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-14-2006).]
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12:57 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
It is when it's the only topic on top of the forum. 11 pages, 0 point.
Face it. Nobody's opinion is changing. Everyone is right in their own way, but nobody's opinion is going to change because of this one forum's single topic on "tolerance" and "homosexuality". You can talk and talk and talk, 100 pages later nothing has changed. What the hell is the point of arguing then?
I realized this small fact about 7 pages ago. Since then I've just been shaking my head and wondering when this **** is going to end. Apparently it's not, without one massive steel pipe being laid on the tracks. Hello train. I introduce you to steel pipe.
You like disgusting this thread, that's what... almost all your comments have been rants, bitches, and baseless crap, stirring up the people to say "STFU". All the arguments on either side have been pretty much "STFU" to each other, either that or other people agreeing, "Yeah, STFU". God, I'm so sick of seeing this topic grow and grow with all the possible points already having been made. Everyone's said everything that needs to be said here.
And if anyone thinks they're going to change the world through this topic or their comments, well... god, someone beside me needs to see a shrink.
Originally posted by 84Bill: Change doesn't come by those who argue, it only comes to the un-embattled silent whose awareness has been heightened by it.
Its not the present I am arguing with but the future I am speeking to.
