Originally posted by 84Bill: ...................... What you want and screw the rest?
Now, who does this REALLY apply to here? This is the 'Gay Pride' movement's motto.'Hey, we are gay, you better accept it, or we will kick your ass!!' The Company were totally correct in their demeanour, conduct and reply.I want to work as a car mechanic, I get greasy hands. I work as a Fireman, I get to inhale smoke, and get burned.I want to be gay, and demand the World accepts it as normal..then equally, they must accept the attitude of straight people who don't condone their lifestyle. They are NOT a case for special treatment, shouldn't expect it.Or get it.And they deserve less and less sympathy every time they try to bludgeon anybody who disagrees. I don't believe people are born 'gay'.Any more than people are born Pedophiles, masochists or sadists.Or rapists.Or alcoholics or drug users. It is a psychological state of mind they choose to adopt, and propogate. And more and more, it is becoming a' fashion'.They are all selfish ways of life. I have the right to these beliefs, as much as they do.Nature embedded this refusal to accept abnormal behaviour in us all, in order to protect the continuance of the species.The more we are forced to accept things we don't agree with, the more those things become prevalent.
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05:43 AM
Falcon4 Member
Posts: 1189 From: Fresno, CA, USA Registered: Oct 2006
Maybe if gay people wouldn't act so goddamn.. gay... everywhere they go, they wouldn't be so "hated" (which they really aren't, just avoided).
Here's the big problem. You talk with people all the time. You assume everyone's, well... straight, or you just don't care. You could pass a hundred gay guys (hell, or girls for that matter) and it wouldn't occur to you, and you wouldn't care either. You could talk with them, do business with them as a cashier at a store or restaurant, pick up something they dropped on the street, so on and so forth, and never know nor care. It's not until one of them starts acting plainly gay that the "I don't know or want to know you" sets in - either the "gay" voice, "gay" comments about you, or any number of things. That's when it becomes a problem. Same thing with almost all stereotypes or "hating". I have no problem with any group of so-called "minorities" until they start making a deal out of it, like a mexican calling for their welfare check, some black guy stealing a bike or beating up a white guy... or a gay guy running around with a whole "gay pride" outfit on the streets. Then it becomes a big deal.
Intolerance? How hard is it to live your own life without pressing your views or opinions on other people? Or living up to the stereotype? If a mexican (on welfare) doesn't like the stereotype I gave above, get a job. If a black guy (with a stolen bike) doesn't like that stereotype, well, you get a job too and buy your own damn bike. (I can't even own a bike around here because they always get stolen...) And finally, if gay guys don't like my stereotype? Quit... hitting... on... random... people.
edit: I agree completely with Fierofetish above... it's not so much the gay, well... gayness that makes it a problem, it's the whole "ACCEPT IT OR WE BLUDGEON YOU WITH STICKS" mentality. Also the undertone of "Accept it or I rape you" thing. I swear, if some guy goes up to a girl on a street and starts hitting on her, what the **** do you think is going to happen? MALE PRIDE? WE'RE ENTITLED TO RANDOMLY HIT ON INNOCENT BYSTANDING WOMEN!
My ass...
[This message has been edited by Falcon4 (edited 11-12-2006).]
John Stricker is on one side and the gay pride is on the other. Meanwhile I'm in the middle wondering what the ****ing hell is going on around here.
Fact is a PUBLIC entity is not allowed to discriminate. END OF STORY.
The reason gays are militant is because they are being DISCRIMINATED against by a group of people who are INTOLORANT of their lifestyle..
If a "gay" guy tries to hit on me I wouldn't even know it because I'm not paranoid of speeking to other people.. simple as that. I don't go there and they know it so they leave me alone. I meet and know ALOT of people because I am TOLORANT and my best friends are that way too.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
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06:02 AM
Falcon4 Member
Posts: 1189 From: Fresno, CA, USA Registered: Oct 2006
I see heteros expressing their sexual preference in bars all the time.. hell I do it myself and I'm not shy about it.. BUT imagine a world where gay is predominent and hetro isnt.. feel the pain yet? Wanna go on a rampage to defend your sexual preference? I know I would and I definatly wont be bashful about it.
Gays would have taken over the world by their incessant manfondling, and straight guys want to get back by girlfondling. In that case... yes, we would have every male on the planet registered as a sex offender.
Originally posted by Falcon4: Eh, according to this quote... Gays would have taken over the world by their incessant manfondling, and straight guys want to get back by girlfondling. In that case... yes, we would have every male on the planet registered as a sex offender.
I think you missed the point.. BIG TIME!
"BUT imagine a world where gay is predominent and hetro isnt.. "
IE..... Imagine that being HETRO was not "normal" and YOU were the odd man out.. IE... being discriminated against by GAYS...
OHH I see.. you cant imagine it because the process for it happening is beyond your ability to rationalize its creation in the first place... In other words you don't have an imagination but you do have a very very warped mind.
Perhaps I will cut that part out... don't want to confuse anyone.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
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06:34 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
My opinion as a business owner myself, is they should have the right to refuse to work for anyone they want for whatever reason. Problem here is they should have kept their reasons to themselves. I have refused to do work quite a few times for various reasons. None of it based on race, religion, etc. Some just for the simple reason I didnt like dealing with their specific insurance company. ie/ I have turned down doing any work on a Samari for the simple reason that every bolt you remove breaks off and has to be redrilled and tapped. Too much aggravation and time better spent on something else. Most jobs I quote for a fact are far lower than any competitor simply because of my overhead. I have been known to not do a job simply because they thought they could get it done cheaper and ended up coming back when they couldnt. Id just tell them I was busy now for the next 2 or 3 months. Ive always gave honest estimates without all the add on frills a lot do.
------------------
Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body... specializing in Corvette & other Higher End Autos.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-12-2006).]
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06:37 AM
Jarhead 2m4 Member
Posts: 1849 From: Missouri City, TX Registered: Jun 2006
People are going to be gay if I like it or not. Some people just didn't grow up in homes where parents instilled morals into their children's behavior.
It doesn't matter that I don't associate myself with homosexuals. They don't need my approval to be gay. Some days I wonder why I agreed to defend a nation's right to say and do some of the stupid things they do...
Personally i think hes a fool to turn away customers for such a reason, but its his business and as long as he isnt a govermnetal contractor its his right.
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09:30 AM
PFF
System Bot
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
The difference is, I'm not telling everyone they HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SOME WAY. Live your life. Do what you want. Leave me to do mine. If I don't want to associate/work for/hire gays, who are YOU to tell me "OH YES YOU WILL OR I WILL HAVE YOU ARRESTED AND THROWN INTO JAIL!"
That has been, and always will be, my point. In this case, it's not a legal matter from the standpoint of law (so far) but they are trying to accomplish the same thing through intimidation, when all the landscaper wanted to do was be left alone.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
And you don't see your OPINION and YOUR VIEW to be intolorant?
I'm not the one who is intolorant because (insert reason here), you are. What are you afraid of Jonh? Gunna burn in hell, catch aids, get raped? Your intolorance makes as much sense as the salem witch trials and the spanish inquisition. It serves no purpose other than to divide, separate, discriminate... hate. Is that what America is to you? A cesspool of intolorance? What you want and screw the rest?
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09:32 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
You have no idea which side I'm on because you are incapable of listening to an opinion that does not match your own and a privately owned business is NOT a public entity. Period. They are just as much a PRIVATE entity as you are as an individual.
I love it when you always seem to know what everyone else thinks, feels, believes, when in reality you really don't have a clue.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Militants exist on both sides of the issue.
John Stricker is on one side and the gay pride is on the other. Meanwhile I'm in the middle wondering what the ****ing hell is going on around here.
Fact is a PUBLIC entity is not allowed to discriminate. END OF STORY.
The reason gays are militant is because they are being DISCRIMINATED against by a group of people who are INTOLORANT of their lifestyle..
If a "gay" guy tries to hit on me I wouldn't even know it because I'm not paranoid of speeking to other people.. simple as that. I don't go there and they know it so they leave me alone. I meet and know ALOT of people because I am TOLORANT and my best friends are that way too.
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09:37 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
The more I read about this, the more this whole thing smells like a setup to me. This gay couple, or at least half of it, went fishing to be discriminated against and to have a "cause" to be publicized for. Let's review the facts:
quote
Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Gays By MONICA RHOR, AP
HOUSTON (Nov. 10) - A few short weeks ago, Garden Guy was just a mom-and-pop landscaping business that promoted itself as "making Houston beautiful since 1991" and promised to treat its customers with respect and honesty. Since then, though, the business has been vilified around the world as a bunch of bigots because its Christian conservative owners refused to do work for a gay couple. Michael Lord and Gary Lackey, a gay couple requesting bids for a landscaping job at their new house, received a polite - and, well, honest - e-mail from Sabrina Farber, a co-owner of Garden Guy: "I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for homosexuals."
So it begins. Mr. Lord says the following:
quote
Michael Lord, who is building a house in the Heights with his partner, told me he had found the company through an Internet search. He liked the "before and after" photos on the company Web site.
He said he didn't notice, at the bottom of one of the pages, under a photo of the Farbers and their four children, this:
"The God-ordained institution of marriage is under attack in courts across the nation, and your help is needed.
Lord said he filled out a form on the Farbers' Web site and received a return e-mail expressing enthusiasm for the project. He called the company Wednesday morning to set up an appointment.
"Mrs. Farber kept referring to me and my wife," said Lord. "I told her it was actually my partner."
Right. You didn't notice it. Does being Gay make you stupid or incapable of reading? I don't think so. It's not hidden, either. Go take a look. There is a very obvious reference on the Home Page to their view on marriage. If you missed all this, then you, Mr. Lord, are a dullard of epic proportions.
But Mr. Lord didn't miss it. He had a phone conversation with Mrs. Farber where, at some point, it became apparent to her that his partner was not a wife, at least in the traditional sense of the word. So the landscape owners declined to even bid the job. (Why waste everyone's time?) They sent the following email:
quote
From: Garden Guy Inc Date: October 18, 2006 9:08:36 AM CDT To: [xxxxxx]@houston.rr.com Subject: Cancel Appt -Garden Guy
Dear Mr. [X],
I am appreciative of your time on the phone today and glad you contacted us. I need to tell you that we cannot meet with you because we choose not to work for homosexuals.
Best of luck in finding someone else to fill your landscaping needs.
All my best,
Sabrina
Todd and Sabrina Farber Owners, Garden Guy, Inc.
visit us at: Garden Guy, Inc
Member of the Association of Professional Landscape Designers
Creating beautiful landscaping for Houston homeowners since 1991!
The response to this email was swift and, IMO, brutal. Mr. Lord forwarded this to 200 people and told THEM to forward it on to many more. Notice a few things here? Like Phone numbers? Tell me, how would YOU feel if a private email was forwarded on to 200 people with instructions to keep forwarding it? Wouldn't that just be wonderful for you? Right.
One of the websites that published the email followed it with:
quote
"All my best"? Pretty cheery for a discriminatory sign-off, don't you think.? Anyway, do what you will with this information. Whatever it is, make sure it's creative.
So it's all the evil Christians? BS. Here's a more likely scenario.
1/2 of the Gay couple is on the internet looking for landscapers and comes across The Garden Guy. He notices the Bible passage on the homepage and goes to the "About Us" page. He sees the statement about gay marriage and the link and he gets mad and decides to press the issue He sends in a contact form from the website. He is called back and during the course of the conversation it becomes apparent that he is gay, which is just what he wanted Shortly thereafter, the email is sent informing him they will not bid the job and states honestly why. He now has what he wants, a cause, which he sends to 200 of his closest friends with instructions to tell everyone they can.
Mrs. Farber said it best:
quote
"It was just our intent to uphold our rights as small business owners to choose our clientele," she said. "All the hate, the threats of sodomizing my children, the threats of me being murdered, came out because of a very businesslike straightforward e-mail I sent. The crowd of tolerance and diversity is not so tolerant."
This is the EXACT same thing I've been saying on this forum for a year or more when the subject has come up. I don't care what you do. I don't care how or who you do it with. It's none of my business. But I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE KEPT OUT OF IT!!
Those rights are being stripped and demonized more and more every day. The incredible thing is, it's people like Scott that believe in the Libertarian ideals that think I shouldn't have them in this case. It's people like 84Bill that is so adamant about his individual rights but I'm not allowed to have mine. I see it over and over and nearly ALWAYS from the same people that protest about violation of THEIR rights.
Cliff, you say this is just terrible. *I* say what's terrible is the day is rapidly coming that I am going to be forced to accept by law and threat of imprisonment a DEVIANT (that is, something that is far out of the norm) lifestyle as being normal.
Well, here's a newsflash for you guys. Deviate all you want, I really don't care. But don't expect me to support it, pay for it, or knowingly further it in any way because it's NOT going to happen with my help.
John Stricker
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10:17 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
The Farbers are free to associate with whom they choose but to state that the reason you do not wish to associate with them is rude, insensitive, and spoiling for a fight. What If I went around saying that I would only work for Conservatives or people with advanced education because the thought of trying to talk to stupid people bothered me? These people waved a red flag in front of a bull and got gored.
The gay community however should be ashamed of the response and publically condemn it. Mr. Lackey had NO right to send the email to 200 "freinds". The point of being an adult is learning take the insensitivity of others in stride and get on with your life. Use it as a lesson to grow from...fine. But revenge is all this was and that sucks. Threatening children with sodomy, threatening murder, restraint of trade, and all other forms of malice is even MORE wrong than the original offence. It certainly does not create a great deal of sympathy towards homosexuals and only re-inforces uninformed stereotypes that gays are emotionally unstable and proned to violence when provoked (ala Frankenfurter). Way to set the cause back a hundred years boys.
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10:33 AM
fogglethorpe Member
Posts: 4828 From: Valley of the Sun Registered: Jul 2001
The owner of a business has a right to pick and choose with whom he will and will not do business....most of the time, he will do what is financially expedient unless (Like the Farbers) he is a stuffy idealogue on a crusade.
It is also within the rights of Mr. Lord to persuade others to boycott the landscaping business.
I say, let market forces be what they are, and keep it out of the courts.
I owned a business in NJ back in the 90s and had a gay couple as clients. They were very nice to me, gave me alot of business, and didn't make an issue out of their sexuality (and I didn't either). Their money was just as good as my other customers (in some cases, better....I never had to chase them down for payment).
I will add this...if a person was involved in criminal activity or something else unseemly I would, and have, refused to do business with them. I would politely decline, move on, and leave it at that.
------------------ Who is John Galt?
[This message has been edited by fogglethorpe (edited 11-12-2006).]
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10:39 AM
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Toddster: The gay community however should be ashamed of the response and publically condemn it. Mr. Lackey had NO right to send the email to 200 "freinds". The point of being an adult is learning take the insensitivity of others in stride and get on with your life. Use it as a lesson to grow from...fine. But revenge is all this was and that sucks. Threatening children with sodomy, threatening murder, restraint of trade, and all other forms of malice is even MORE wrong than the original offence. .
Is this a conservative appology to the" Dixie Chicks" Todd? Are you capable of seeing the parallel?
Originally posted by jstricker: Those rights are being stripped and demonized more and more every day. The incredible thing is, it's people like Scott that believe in the Libertarian ideals that think I shouldn't have them in this case. It's people like 84Bill that is so adamant about his individual rights but I'm not allowed to have mine. I see it over and over and nearly ALWAYS from the same people that protest about violation of THEIR rights.
The First Amendment to the US Constitution specifically guarantees the right to freedom of association. This means that if I want to associate with Fiero owners, I can. It also means that if I don't want to associate with Honda owners, it means I don't have to.
American jurisprudence proceeds on the theory that businesses are effectively the same as people. Therefore a business, theoretically, can refuse to associate (do business with) whomever it pleases.
The legal basis for anti-discrimination law proceeds from the theory that allowing businesses to refuse service based on race is detrimental to society at large. In this fashion it is considered a "constitutional" law even though it infringes on a right specifically protected by the First Amendment.
No such theory has been established for sexual practices. The reality is that at most 10% of the population is homosexual, and 10% is a stretch; 5% is more realistic. It is not clear that extending the "race discrimination" law to cover sexual habits would be equally beneficial; besides the fact that homosexuality is a miniscule fraction of the total population, it is also one of questionable social value for many reasons.
(Don't believe me? Think I'm a bigot? Do a little research. Find out how many pedophiles are homosexuals versus how many are straight, particularly in terms of percentage of parent population. Find out how much of the "gay lifestyle" revolves around promiscuous and frequently anonymous sex. HIV became an "epidemic" in the 1980s because of such practices.)
Although the law has been extended to cover "sexual preference" it is not pervasive and cannot be applied to every situation. Much is left up to local control.
I think John makes an excellent case, above, for a homosexual "sting" against the owners of that company. Homosexual activists don't like religion; they don't like being told by anyone that their lifestyle is destructive.
Ed
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10:53 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 36740 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by edhering: Although the law has been extended to cover "sexual preference" it is not pervasive and cannot be applied to every situation.
I believe you are wrong here. Sexual discrimination has only served to protect against gender discrimination.
John.. you are intolorant of gays... you discrimiante on the basis of sexual preference.. I don't like that about you and I have little tolorance for your warped justifications to hate another AMERICAN let alone another human being.. I personally fing your intolorance to be more disgusting than any gay act.
end of discussion....
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: Bill,
The difference is, I'm not telling everyone they HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SOME WAY. John Stricker
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12:22 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Here's the big problem. You talk with people all the time. You assume everyone's, well... straight, or you just don't care. You could pass a hundred gay guys (hell, or girls for that matter) and it wouldn't occur to you, and you wouldn't care either. You could talk with them, do business with them as a cashier at a store or restaurant, pick up something they dropped on the street, so on and so forth, and never know nor care.
Here's a newsflash for you. You DO pass gay men and women every day, do business with them, talk to the, etc. and it never occurs to you. You assume all gays act outrageously "gay" but those are only the ones you notice.
quote
Originally posted by Falcon4:
Maybe if gay people wouldn't act so goddamn.. gay... everywhere they go, they wouldn't be so "hated" (which they really aren't, just avoided).
How would you react if someone told you that you to act a certain way to avoid their hatred and persecution? I'm betting you'd tell them to screw off.
Originally posted by jstricker: It's people like 84Bill that is so adamant about his individual rights but I'm not allowed to have mine. I see it over and over and nearly ALWAYS from the same people that protest about violation of THEIR rights.
John Stricker
John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..
As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!! Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task for your INTOLORANCE and HATEFULNESS .
Refuse the job but DO NOT state that the reason for refusal is based on YOUR hate of another person based on XXX which are personal reasons. THAT is not serving the public in good faith and you should be BARRED from ever serving the public because you are incapable of doing it without treating all people (the public) equally.... Hell.. you arent even good at being American in my eyes let alone capable of operating a public business with that shitty attitude of yours. And I don't give a rats ass about "religious values" because the jack bags in Salem had the same idea and it killed 24 innocent people!
I can assure you Jonh.. I will NEVER do business with you because I don't like Communists and people who hate.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..
As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!! Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task on your INTOLORONT HATEFUL ass.
*snip*
But isnt part of our freedom ( here in the US at least ) to publiclly express our views? Even if they offend others? ( which no matter what we say, it will offend SOMEONE )
Edit: HEY! my avatar works!
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 11-12-2006).]
John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..
Bill, you really need to quit calling things something they are not.
quote
Under the ADA, public entity means any state or local government; any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentalities of a state or local government; and the National Railroad Passenger Corporation and any commuter authority.
SEC. 201. DEFINITION. As used in this title:
(1) Public entity.--The term "public entity" means--
(A) any State or local government; (B) any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and (C) the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 103(8) of the Rail Passenger Service Act).
Because you do business with the public does not make you a public entity. Learn the difference and get over it. Shouting at the top of your lungs over and over that anyone that does business with the public is a public entity doesn't make it a fact, it only makes you wrong over and over again in a very loud voice. I am a sole proprietorship, private business. I reserve the right to do business with whoever I want to do business with. You don't like it? Tough. Don't do business with me then.
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!! Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task for your INTOLORANCE and HATEFULNESS .
Because your world is either HATE/NOT HATE doesn't mean mine is. Don't impose your standards on me. I don't hate anyone, gay or straight, I just want to be LEFT OUT OF IT and we'll get along fine. To you, that means I hate. Who says? You? Again, tough. Get over it.
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: Refuse the job but DO NOT state that the reason for refusal is based on YOUR hate of another person based on XXX which are personal reasons. THAT is not serving the public in good faith and you should be BARRED from ever serving the public because you are incapable of doing it without treating all people (the public) equally.... Hell.. you arent even good at being American in my eyes let alone capable of operating a public business with that shitty attitude of yours. And I don't give a rats ass about "religious values" because the jack bags in Salem had the same idea and it killed 24 innocent people!
Oh, I'm so crushed. Now if you had your way my right to serve in public office would be stripped from me. I'm a Communist. But I'd be OK if I just refused to do the job and lied about the reasons for not doing it. Oh brother.
What a hypocrite you are, Bill.
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: I can assure you Jonh.. I will NEVER do business with you because I don't like Communists and people who hate.
Gee, I'm heartbroken that you won't do business with me. Guess what, I'm glad you have the right to make that choice. That's all I'm asking for as well. Why should you have the choice and not me?
John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..
Geez Bill.. get off your rainbow bandwagon and read what you are saying! As a business owner in these semi free countries (reason I say semi free is because all the rights once put in places decades ago are being pulled away by crying whining people like you) we do haave the rights to choose who we work with.
John as a business owner DOES have the right to choose who he deals with. Dont like it? Dont waste his time or yours trying to soliciate services from him.
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-12-2006).]
Gee, I'm heartbroken that you won't do business with me. Guess what, I'm glad you have the right to make that choice. That's all I'm asking for as well. Why should you have the choice and not me?
John Stricker
John,
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience
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01:33 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
But isnt part of our freedom ( here in the US at least ) to publiclly express our views? Even if they offend others? ( which no matter what we say, it will offend SOMEONE )
Well, there's a legal difference between expressing your views and discriminating against someone because of those views.
Example: Expressing a vew: White man stands on the street corner and says, "I don't like blacks." Discrimination: White man at the lunch counter, "We don't serve coloreds here. You'll have to leave."
The legal question is whether or not sexual orientation is protected by the same laws that protect people against racial discrimination.
http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/article_content/article13721.html "Both federal and state laws prohibit businesses from denying public accommodation to citizens on the basis of race, color, religion or national original. The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
Race, color, religion, or national origin. Doesn't say anything about sexual orientation, so it would appear that is is legal to refuse service to someone based on their sexual orientation; however,
On the other hand, a California court decided that a restaurant owner could not refuse to seat a gay couple in a semi-private booth where its policy was to only seat two people of the opposite sex in such booths. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.
Now, that's in CA, so it may be different in other states, but the precident is set.
But here's a part that tends to address John's point of view:
Like many issues involving constitutional law, the law against discrimination in public accommodations is in a constant state of change. Some argue that anti-discrimination laws in matters of public accommodations create a conflict between the ideal of equality and individual rights. Does the guaranteed right to public access mean the business owner's private right to exclude is violated? For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations far outweighs the individual liberties involved.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-12-2006).]
Originally posted by jstricker: What a hypocrite you are, Bill. John Stricker
Show me where I am being a hypocrite with regard to HATING another person for their preference.
I hate what people DO but I don't hate the person. Big difference.
BTW John You are entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to mine.. yours suck and mine dont.. thats the way I see it and I'm sure you see it the opposite so stop the petty grade school bullshit.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
Because you do business with the public does not make you a public entity. Learn the difference and get over it. Shouting at the top of your lungs over and over that anyone that does business with the public is a public entity doesn't make it a fact, it only makes you wrong over and over again in a very loud voice. I am a sole proprietorship, private business. I reserve the right to do business with whoever I want to do business with. You don't like it? Tough. Don't do business with me then.
*snip* John Stricker
You are of course right, but dont forget that if you do business directly with the government, or receive governmental funding then you also fall under diffrent rules.
To be able to have the 'right to refuse' you have to be 100% private.
I'm not sure about corporations, they may have different rules as well.
Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: Geez Bill.. get off your rainbow bandwagon and read what you are saying! As a business owner in these semi free countries (reason I say semi free is because all the rights once put in places decades ago are being pulled away by crying whining people like you) we do haave the rights to choose who we work with.
Kiss my ass.. I can get on any "band wagon" I want. I do read what I say.. I'm the one who writes it. You call me stupid in so many words but that is the stupidest one I've heard in a while.
As far as "my crying and whining about this being a semi free country.. You FAIL to realise that this is the very reason people need to FIGHT for their equal rights and justice under the law.
Because HATE filled individual are afraid of burning in hell or something as stupid as that it gives them a RIGHT to banish someone else because of the way they part their hair? IT IS OKAY to deny gays fair and equal treatment under the law as American citizens by public entities because "god says so"? Sounds Communist to me. Spade = Spade.
quote
John as a business owner DOES have the right to choose who he deals with. Dont like it? Dont waste his time or yours trying to soliciate services from him.
I never said john can not "refuse business" I said he can not refuse business on the BASIS OF (insert hate bias here)
Big difference. Public entities are not allowed to discriminate.. PRIVATE individials... who the hell cares.. it's your PRIVATE business.
There are certin groups I don't like but you don't know about them and even if you did I'm not bias and I wont refuse their business or their tallants as workers. John WILL.. but I wont because I don't hate anyone that much.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
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02:34 PM
PFF
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Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by DRA: Well that would solve the problem of over population, if that was the case from the beginning I'm sure we would not be here today.
Well, there's a legal difference between expressing your views and discriminating against someone because of those views.
Example: Expressing a vew: White man stands on the street corner and says, "I don't like blacks." Discrimination: White man at the lunch counter, "We don't serve coloreds here. You'll have to leave."
The legal question is whether or not sexual orientation is protected by the same laws that protect people against racial discrimination.
If is my private business i will refuse anyone for any reason i see fit. Since i dont receive any governmental assistance, or contracts i have the right.
Now, it may be stupid of me to turn away the business ( $ ), but its still my right.
( there are a few exceptions in the law, like for housing, or as i mentioned before 'with governmental ties', but overall this is true )
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02:42 PM
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Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
I've read good points from both sides of this argument, but as a whole I am sensing intolerance from both sides of the debate.
There really is a point where people should just agree to disagree, in other words respect each others cultures and beliefs.
Because someone would choose not to do business with an openly gay couple would not in my mind automatically make them intolerant or hateful people, if it did then I would have to look very closely into the mirror.
I could go on for hours about the subject but in the end it would just be my opinion, some might agree with it and some may disagree, it's their right to agree or disagree.
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02:46 PM
DRA Member
Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by DRA: Because someone would choose not to do business with an openly gay couple would not in my mind automatically make them intolerant or hateful people, if it did then I would have to look very closely into the mirror.
Thats true but you arent the one being injured and denied equal treatment by someone elses bias based on X beliefs. If you were and you felt strongly enough that there is an injustice then I'm sure you would see the opposition as hateful individuals. IE. They don't like you, wont hire you or provide a service because you are gay and it counters (insert belief here) .... and thats not bullshit to you?
I'm not even gay and I think it's bullshit!
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]
