I'm done... thanks for the civil discussion John. Just like on the rest of the net... the more extreme people who won't tolerate someone else's ideas/freedoms are getting rude.

I'll say that you could be completely correct able it being a setup, not that an opposing view isn't entitled to that. Both sides have their extremists, the religious right and the way way way right that don't just hate the sin, but hate the sinner, and the way way way way in your face militant homosexuals. I suspect this started off a lot closer to the center of both camps, but the issue itself draws the fringes in like a moth to a candle. That could be seen here with the swings to calling gays pedophiles, the use of nasty language (don't see heterosexuals referred to as a group by sexual acts now do?)

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html This link is for the person that just had to call gays pedophiles and cocksuckers (I think the lesbians could take offense at having that term used for them) , not that he'll read it with an open mind and realize that pedophilia doesn't have a thing to do with a persons attraction to adults. It's like saying heterosexuality is evil because most rapists are heterosexuals... Heterosexuals rape women! Stupid statement. Or maybe we should outlaw MEN since men commit 97% of all sex crimes, be it rape, sexual assault, molestation. Doh...

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: What's next? Small signs on restaurants' doors that read: "straight people only"? Are gays allowed to call you "sir" or should they address you with "Massa"? Not shaking hands with gay people if you were introduced to them? OMFG. You sir, disgust me.

I feel the same way... I'm disgusted.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats true but you arent the one being injured and denied equal treatment by someone elses bias based on X beliefs. If you were and you felt stronly enough that there is an injustice then I'm sure you would see the opposition as hateful individuals. IE. They don't like you because (insert reason here).... and thats not bullshit to you?

I do not see where these people have been injured and or denied equal treatment by someone. A guy refused to cut their grass, I'm sure he's not the only one who cuts grass in that county.
Now I might think differently if they were unable to receive medical attention, attend public school, vote, get a drivers license, or say if the fire department refused to put their house out if it was on fire (around here you pay a yearly subscription to the fire dept so I guess you could say they discriminate against the poor).

I just have a hard time seeing this as an injustice.

As far as " they don't like you because (insert reason here)", well I'm sure there are plenty of folks that don't like me for any number of reasons, heck I might be creating a few more just by typing my opinions and thoughts on this forum, but hey thats their right. If they feel they have a reason not to associate with me or do business with me then WHY would I want to force them to. Are my reasons for what I do or don't do any more valid than theirs.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: It isn't really like this Cliff.

quote You are right and bums don't get murdered or churches burned by a gang of "bored" teenagers.. Right? Come on Pokey.. don't delude yourself.. it's alot worse than you allow yourself to comprehend.

quote A forum on the Garden Guy Web site, normally reserved for discussions about landscaping and shrubbery, was bombarded with angry comments and venomous attacks from as far away as Australia. Some people attacked the Farbers' beliefs, threatened the couple and their five children, and said they ought to be sodomized. Others condemned gays as sinners headed toward damnation. Farber, whose company's Web site has long included Biblical quotes and a link to a Web site that opposes gay marriage, said she was shocked by the reaction.

Hate doesn't run our streets rampant Bill. Ignorance does seem to be trotting along. If Cliff were to take this forums extremists veiws as a representation of how people really are it would be a shame. Of course I do live in a very tolorant state where we are very used to seeing different things.

quote Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: Yes you can Bill.. And I know what colors that wagon is aiming at

metaphorically speeking I'm color blind. I don't allow my bias to stereotype people but they do fit certin catagories I deem a danger to freedom and equality.

quote PS.. I am offended at your kiss my ass comment as I am not your type.. I like women..

A gay friend once said to me, "I'm more man than you will ever be and more woman than you will ever get." I about pissed myself laughing.

Be offended.. I don't care.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: A gay friend once said to me, "I'm more man than you will ever be and more woman than you will ever get." I about pissed myself laughing. Be offended.. I don't care.

so your a morphodite? Too much info bill.. I always thought you were a big queer....now you took away any doubt..

PS.. I wont be coming into this thread anymore as you admitting that is creeping me out..

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Hate doesn't run our streets rampant Bill. Ignorance does seem to be trotting along. If Cliff were to take this forums extremists veiws as a representation of how people really are it would be a shame. Of course I do live in a very tolorant state where we are very used to seeing different things.

I will ALWAYS take the extreme when it comes to defending equality and fair treatemt in the United States because that is what this country is all about.. PEOPLE who have no interest in defending others rights to fair and impartial treatment without regard to self. I joined the serice and was willing to die FOR EVERYONE.. not just a few here, a few there or my own reasons.. but for America and Americans.

I am a MILITANT in every sense of the word when it comes to defending the rights of people to fair treatment and I'm damn proud of that.

AGAIN
John can hate gays... I don't care.. but he can not OPENLY discriminate against them and at the same time be a public entity. Thats not America.. thats as bad as hating "*******" because they are black and most call those types "neo-nazis." I call them wackos and john is a wacko too.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: They were honest but far from "respectful" when they denied services due to a sexual preference bias... What next? Blond hair and blue eyes? Tatoos? BUCK TEETH?

I would rather they be honest and in my mind that does make them respectful of me, now if they had lied to me and told me they had no problem servicing me and then telling their friends how they really felt, I feel that would be disrespectful. If lieing about ones beleifs (no matter how backward I perceive them) is seen as the respectful path to take then I guess I'm not a very respectable guy.

They had the respect and honesty to tell the people why they were refusing to bid on the job, they did not jack their price to avoid getting the contract, they did not take a job they knew they would not WANT to do, they are being punished or at least ridiculed for their beliefs as much or more than the couple they refused to give a bid.

I am in no way saying my opinion or thoughts are the end all final word on ANY subject, sometimes things aren't just cut and dry and I realize that. I would hope that that would make me a more tolerant and understanding person but it does not negate my core beliefs.
The idea that tolerance is in any way related to enabling or endorsing something or negating my own beliefs is not my way of thinking.
If the lanscaper had burned down the couples house and hung them I would agree they were quite intollerant, but the fact that they choose not to associate themselves with someone because of that persons lifestyle, race, national origin, or religous beliefs does not scream intolorence to me. It simply tells me they are very dedicated to their own beliefs, right or wrong, and as long as they are not forcing their personal beliefs on others I have no problem with it.

And I am listening to your point of view and opinion on the subject, you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I quite honestly don't have a problem with the way you feel about the subject but also know that you are no more right or wrong than I am. It is a personal preference in the way we percieve things and feel about them, there will always be one or more desenting opinions on everything.

More insults. Not only are you a hypocrite, but now you're just being childish as well.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I will ALWAYS take the extreme when it comes to defending equality and fair treatemt in the United States because that is what this country is all about.. PEOPLE who have no interest in defending others rights to fair and impartial treatment without regard to self. I joined the serice and was willing to die FOR EVERYONE.. not just a few here, a few there or my own reasons.. but for America and Americans. I am a MILITANT in every sense of the word when it comes to defending the rights of people to fair treatment and I'm damn proud of that. AGAIN John can hate gays... I don't care.. but he can not OPENLY discriminate against them and at the same time be a public entity. Thats not America.. thats as bad as hating "*******" because they are black and most call those types "neo-nazis." I call them wackos and john is a wacko too.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: More insults. Not only are you a hypocrite, but now you're just being childish as well. John Stricker

Not nearly as insulting to know I share this country with haters like you. But alas.. thats what I must try to be more tolorant of.. So go ahead.. speek your mind and voice your opinions of discrimination and hatred toward others and I will do the same to you in return with an equal sense of pride.

Love you John

Bill

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: If is my private business i will refuse anyone for any reason i see fit. Since i dont receive any governmental assistance, or contracts i have the right. Now, it may be stupid of me to turn away the business ( $ ), but its still my right. ( there are a few exceptions in the law, like for housing, or as i mentioned before 'with governmental ties', but overall this is true )

Go back and read my post after I added more info. You do NOT have the legal right to refuse service to someone on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin according the the Federal Civil Rights Act.

"The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

The Civil Rights Act doesn't specifically mention sexual orientation, but the precident is set in California that you can't discriminate on that basis without a legitimate business reason.

This has nothing to do with whether or not you have any governmental ties. All places of public accommodation are bound by the law.

A public accommodation is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, pharmacies, retail stores, museums, libraries, parks, private schools, and day care centers. Private clubs and religious organizations are exempt from the ADA's title III requirements for public accommodations.

Two things that tend to get overlooked with things like this:

1. Is a gay person refused equality becouse of how they carry themselves in public, or becouse of what they do in thier bedroom? Either way, being seen as "different" (by making it public knowlage) is not reason enough to deny equal treatment.

2. Today, someone is refused equality becouse of how they look or who they sleep with. Tomorrow YOU are refused equality becouse your hair color has been determined to be a sign of evil or refused equality becouse you are sleeping with someone with the wrong hair color.

Far-fetched?
Look at this last year.

It started with grabbing known terrorists, putting them in secret prisons, torturing them, and keeping them there without charges or a trial.
Then it went to "suspected" terrorists.
Now they can do it to ANYONE, for something as little as owning the wrong BOOK.
And you have no recourse.

I find it impossable to believe that people cannot see beyond today.
They see neither the PAST, nor TOMMORROW.
Whats happening today, has happened before, and changes our tomorrows.

History has shown us what works and what don't.
Why do people not heed that?
Why do we keep repeating the mistakes of the past.
They were hard learned lessons, and now we just throw them away.
We pretend what's happening today is FAR different then what has happened in the past.

Today's war is no different then the very FIRST war.
Each side thinks the other side is evil, or not as "enlightened" as them.
They are different, and that is bad.

"Difference, of any kind, is bad. It is to be feared & reviled. It must be destroyed. We are right, they are wrong"

What you do to one man, you do to all men.
Eventually, it is done to you.
And then you cry out, "Why? I'm not one of them, I'm one of you!"
But you have let to much slip by you, while being part of the "We".
Becouse the "We" has turned into the "I".
And that makes you "Them".
See, when the ruling "We", is replaced by the Ruling "I", everyone else is "Them".
And "Them" is bad.
Always has been.

When you start judging people "From On High", don't fool yourself by thinking there is no one ABOVE you, watching how YOU live. And if it is not inline with those above YOU, well, you should not be surprised to where you will be religated.
Becouse, after all, It was your way.

One final thought:
READ HISTORY.
LEARN FROM IT.
APPLY IT.

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

"When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church and there was nobody left to be concerned." - Pastor Martin Niemöller

"To be nobody but yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting." - e.e. cummings

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd." - William Shakespeare

quote Originally posted by DRA: I would rather they be honest and in my mind that does make them respectful of me, now if they had lied to me and told me they had no problem servicing me and then telling their friends how they really felt, I feel that would be disrespectful. If lieing about ones beleifs (no matter how backward I perceive them) is seen as the respectful path to take then I guess I'm not a very respectable guy.

Well.. thats fine for you but not fine for others so whats the solution... I KNOW.. how about equality? Just forget bias and just be NICE to one another? Ohhh really hard to do.

quote They had the respect and honesty to tell the people why they were refusing to bid on the job, they did not jack their price to avoid getting the contract, they did not take a job they knew they would not WANT to do, they are being punished or at least ridiculed for their beliefs as much or more than the couple they refused to give a bid.

I think you are a communist sympathizer and neo nazi.... I may be honest but would it be fair to refuse you a job just because of that?

quote I am in no way saying my opinion or thoughts are the end all final word on ANY subject, sometimes things aren't just cut and dry and I realize that. I would hope that that would make me a more tolerant and understanding person but it does not negate my core beliefs. The idea that tolerance is in any way related to enabling or endorsing something or negating my own beliefs is not my way of thinking. If the lanscaper had burned down the couples house and hung them I would agree they were quite intollerant, but the fact that they choose not to associate themselves with someone because of that persons lifestyle, race, national origin, or religous beliefs does not scream intolorence to me. It simply tells me they are very dedicated to their own beliefs, right or wrong, and as long as they are not forcing their personal beliefs on others I have no problem with it.

Those people can move out of this country and to Afghanistan if they want.. No gays there. Here we have both gay Americans and Afghani Americans.. but I like to level that even further and just call them Americans. I'm tolorant of all Americans but I do not tolorate haters... the "intolorant"

quote And I am listening to your point of view and opinion on the subject, you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I quite honestly don't have a problem with the way you feel about the subject but also know that you are no more right or wrong than I am. It is a personal preference in the way we percieve things and feel about them, there will always be one or more desenting opinions on everything.

Oh I'm right and far more right than I am wrong. I have no interest in the gay lifestyle.. I have no interest in the christian lifestyle.. I am NON BIAS toward either but I demand equal treatment for all people IN PUBLIC. Gays don't discriminate against christians.. do they?? I'm sure they do but thats a federal offense and the punnishment is steep!

Hey sit in your haouse and bash gays.. or morphodites.. I don't care.. just don't USE your BIAS and your business to discriminate. Thats just flat out WRONG

I am not talking about race, something a person is born with and has no control over.
I am not talking about age, something out of the control of the person.
I am not talking about sex, something determined at birth and is not a choice.

I am talking about someone who CHOOSES to live an OPENLY GAY LIFESTYLE. I'm not even going to get into the debate if it's a genetic or learned response, I don't care. Either way you're talking about someone who has CHOSEN to live their lives a certain way.

Fine. Have at it. My religion, my upbringing, and even the natural order of biology all tell me this is a deviant lifestyle and it is wrong, but that's OK with me too if you want to live a deviant lifestyle...............BUT LEAVE ME OUT OF IT. That's all. Nothing more. Do what you like. So will I. I choose NOT to associate with those people that live a deviant lifestyle be that openly homosexual, illegal drug user, alcoholics, and any other number of deviancies. But go ahead and shoot yourself up with whatever you like, as long as it does me no harm I don't care. Sleep with whoever you want, of whatever gender, as often as you want, I don't care, but don't tell me I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AS NORMAL AND HEALTHY because I'm not going to do that.

Living an openly homosexual life IS A CHOICE just as much as living an openly heterosexual lifestyle is. A lot of people live neither because they choose to. Probably moreso than those that choose to live a homosexual lifestyle. It's a choice. Make it. Be happy. Just don't ORDER ME to pay for it and don't twist YOUR INSISTENCE ON MY ACCEPTANCE AS BEING MY INTOLERANCE.

A classic example of making a victim out of the perpetrator.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Two things that tend to get overlooked with things like this: 1. Is a gay person refused equality becouse of how they carry themselves in public, or becouse of what they do in thier bedroom? Either way, being seen as "different" (by making it public knowlage) is not reason enough to deny equal treatment. 2. Today, someone is refused equality becouse of how they look or who they sleep with. Tomorrow YOU are refused equality becouse your hair color has been determined to be a sign of evil or refused equality becouse you are sleeping with someone with the wrong hair color.

Well laaa teee daaaaa.. looks gay to me!





I wonder if mom-and-pop landscaping will deny trimming those guys bushes because they are openly "man loving" eachother?

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

To you, it would. I saw the same pictures a long time ago and that thought never crossed my mind. Now who's intolerant?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Well laaa teee daaaaa.. looks gay to me!

Ok, that's kinda weird. What's the story behind that? Something in the protocol books?

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy (8/26/06)

[This message has been edited by whadeduck (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: To you, it would. I saw the same pictures a long time ago and that thought never crossed my mind. Now who's intolerant? John Stricker

I don't really care about those pictures and what they mean I don't like government and government officials... As is my right to always be weary of them. They are holding hands and what appears to be kissing... ohhh scarry ground there.. next thing you know... the bedroom... better install a camera!

Thanks John.. now.. go hold up a mirror and take a good hard look at yourself.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Its customary in Saudi Arabia. They greet with a kiss on the cheek and walk hand in hand as a sign of kinship. Quite franky I wouldn't mind it myself.. I feel it would be an honor.

Hmm, didn't know that. I'm used to the kissing on the cheek, but the handholding is new to me. Nothing wrong with it, just hadn't seen it before. I'm sure that some of our customs are strange to them as well.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy (8/26/06)

The irony of it all..Gays should be eternally grateful to heterosexuals..and show a lot more respect than they do..after all,without heterosexuals creating life, they would soon enough disappear. It is heterosexuals who produce the next generation, not them. Until some misguided scientist decides to play God, and grants them the ability to procreate.Against the design of nature.If nature, the basis of ALL life, had decided that homosexuality was acceptable, and 'natural' then She was clever enough to make us hermaphrodites..but She didn't.She chose to make worms hermaphrodites..so therefore she could have done it.It was not Her will to do so.Nature should be revered and respected..she brought us this far.

quote Originally posted by jstricker:

John, you use the word "openly" a lot when discussing homosexuality.
Doesn't that seem a little "telling" to you?

"I don't want to SEE it, I don't want to HEAR it, I don't want to KNOW it."
That's your right.
But you can't make them stop being VISABLE, SPEAKING, or BEING.
They were here in the beginning, and they will be here in the end.
You will, and probibly are, doing buisness with them.
But it's OK becouse you don't KNOW IT?
Who's that you talk to on the phone?
Who takes your order on line?
Who owns that corporation?

It's OK to do buisness with someone, as long as they HIDE who they are?
They must not be PROUD of who they are?
Unlike religion?
If you are religious, will you do buisness with those that AREN'T?

You said yourself, you should not have to do something just becouse it's politiclly correct.
Why should they?
Why should ANYONE have to hide who they are?
Becouse of the intolerence of the beliefs of others, that's why.

Cruel to be kind, in the right measure?
I think not.

I hope we all (and that means me too) get smarter someday.
It's the only way we're going to survive.

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: Hmm, didn't know that. I'm used to the kissing on the cheek, but the handholding is new to me. Nothing wrong with it, just hadn't seen it before. I'm sure that some of our customs are strange to them as well.

Thats what makes up the world we live in.. Some make it tilt, others make it spin and still others make it revolve around the sun.

Kinda neat if you ask me.

For example..
I called my friend Avery (AKA "X Man") the other day. I said Hey X whats up man.. it's "Rill"
Avery says, "Hey my n****r.. whats up?"

Cracks me up every time. Especially when I say it.. The world is a very different place when there are no barriers.. It a shame because there are places I can't go in the hood simply because I'm white.. Oh well.
But I can go and see things other have absoliutly no clue about and I am not just basing my observations on years of second hand bias.. Its real! I been there.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

We have NO chance of surviving by being Gay, Boonie. And since when did being Gay become politically correct?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I hope we all (and that means me too) get smarter someday. It's the only way we're going to survive.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Well.. thats fine for you but not fine for others so whats the solution... I KNOW.. how about equality? Just forget bias and just be NICE to one another? Ohhh really hard to do. I think you are a communist sympathizer and neo nazi.... I may be honest but would it be fair to refuse you a job just because of that? Those people can move out of this country and to Afghanistan if they want.. No gays there. Here we have both gay Americans and Afghani Americans.. but I like to level that even further and just call them Americans. I'm tolorant of all Americans but I do not tolorate haters... the "intolorant" Oh I'm right and far more right than I am wrong. I have no interest in the gay lifestyle.. I have no interest in the christian lifestyle.. I am NON BIAS toward either but I demand equal treatment for all people IN PUBLIC. Gays don't discriminate against christians.. do they?? I'm sure they do but thats a federal offense and the punnishment is steep! Hey sit in your haouse and bash gays.. or morphodites.. I don't care.. just don't USE your BIAS and your business to discriminate. Thats just flat out WRONG

Geez, I didn't realize I was coming across as a communist sympathizer and neo nazi. I thought my point was that both groups should be more tolerant of each others beliefs and rights. I guess if being opposed to being forced to associate and deal with individuals or groups whose beliefs or lifestyles I don't agree with and giving up my right to personal choice is comunist or neo-nazi then thats what I am.

Personally I would initially have had no problem doing work for the people the landscaping company refused to give the bid to, but after seeing what they have done to these people for simply being honest enough to let them know they choose not to affiliate themselves with openly gay groups or individuals I would be hesitant.

I have a few friends/family/aquaintences who are homosexual, I do not have a problem with them and they do not seem to have a problem with me (at least none of them has started a smear campaign against me yet). I do not have a problem with them practicing their lifestyle but I choose not to participate in their lifestyle choice and do not try to force my lifestyle choices on them.

Oh, and yes, if you think I am a communist sympathizer and neo nazi and believe that I will use my position to further my cause or that I would use my position as a platform to wave my flag I do believe it would be fair to refuse to give me a job based on your oposition to my beliefs.

Gotta go move my car, catching a hard time about spending to much time on the internet so I'll have to stop here. Maybe I can sneak back on in a little while to continue this wonderful debate.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: We have NO chance of surviving by being Gay, Boonie.

Sure we do... because not everyone is gay. Soooo... whats the problem?

In theory their lifestyle shoud die out.. but it hasn't.. Even the Alexander The Great was alleged to have had gay relations... But his men died for him because he was such a good leader. Had there been the kind of bias alive then that there is now he would never have been.... hummmm... just imagine the military tactics we would have never known.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: We have NO chance of surviving by being Gay, Boonie. And since when did being Gay become politically correct?

You have no chance of surviving anyways... what's your point? Homosexuality is something that nature tries out over and over and over. The trait doesn't go away, which means it actually can be a good thing for a species under the right circumstances. Nature doesn't put all of it's eggs in one basket... when it picks one thing so tightly defined, that species goes extinct.

Next up... getting those people who are jewish to stop being so open about it. Oh wait, we've been there.

As a religious issue, this is one of those things that bothers me just as much as extremist islam... it's the same path. Attempts at legislating personal beliefs like those on the landscaping website relating to marriage. Outlawing who can and can't get married because YOUR beliefs say it's wrong. Hate the sin, outlaw the sinner...

I'm not a christian, so should any business be able to deny me service because of that? BTDT... blue laws, that say/said that businesses can't be open on Sunday, or in some cases that they MUST be open on Saturdays. 1935 Nerenberg... Jews became subjects rather than citizens, and in a similar situation to today... marriage between jews and non jews was outlawed. The idea is just disgusting eh? Some Christian decides that they have the right to determine what someone else can do, because their god says so. Their version of their god trumps everyone else because they say so... so shut up about it and just become invisible if you don't conform... then pray to your own god they don't go any further.

Edit- or make a stink about it when it's at the level of getting your lawn mowed... might be better than when they are moving you to the showers.

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Next up... getting those people who are jewish to stop being so open about it. Oh wait, we've been there.

Well thats a religious bias.. better call them Israelites or "the other arabs."

With all of this talk of hatred and intolerance, this is right, that is not, I'm right, your wrong. I have only one question.
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Did they ever get their grass cut?

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy (8/26/06)

She went home to take a shower and drop the dogs off! I'm unsupervised!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a quick comment on personal veiw of using the term "openly gay", I am not refering to a couple who walks hand in hand or is honest about their sexual orientation although I do feel that ones sexual orientation is a private matter. But rather I am refering to the extremeist individuals or groups that seem to want to push their lifestyle onto others (and yes the christian, aithiest, KKK, or any EXTREMEIST group who has no tolerance for others beliefs irritates me). I don't march up and down the road waving a flag and endorsing the heterosexual lifestyle, I don't push that any sexual lifestyle be endorsed or approved of in our schools. Maybe I'm a closet hetrosexual but I really feel that it's no ones business what goes on behind MY closed doors. When someone flaunts or parades their beliefs they are bound to attract detractors (that sounded neat!).

Now some folks, for better or worse, have very strong feelings and beliefs concerning folks that do not share their point of view. That will never change, but I do believe that as a whole our society has become more tolerant of others right to choose their particular path. At the same time I do not believe that in accepting another individuals right to choose their path that we are obligated to approve of or endorse that path. There will always be at least two people that should not ever be put in the same room together or forced to associate with one another, it's just a fact that everyone will never agree on everything.
Thats why I usually fall back on the old saying, agree to disagree. It would be lovely if everyone in the world could just be civil to one another, but being civil does not include being forced to associate or do business with a particular person or group.
Being civil can simply mean politely saying I do not wish to associate or do business with you because it goes against my personal beliefs, what is wrong with that?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Hate doesn't run our streets rampant Bill. Ignorance does seem to be trotting along. If Cliff were to take this forums extremists veiws as a representation of how people really are it would be a shame. Of course I do live in a very tolorant state where we are very used to seeing different things.

You can take it as a microcosm, and it IS disgusting.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: John, you use the word "openly" a lot when discussing homosexuality. Doesn't that seem a little "telling" to you?

Not particularly, no.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: "I don't want to SEE it, I don't want to HEAR it, I don't want to KNOW it." That's your right.

Gee, thanks for allowing me that, at least.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: But you can't make them stop being VISABLE, SPEAKING, or BEING.

Nor do I want to.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: They were here in the beginning, and they will be here in the end.

Not really, but you believe what you want, it's a free country.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You will, and probibly are, doing buisness with them. But it's OK becouse you don't KNOW IT?

It's OK for ME, because I can't be responsible for what I don't know when there's no practical way to find it out.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Who's that you talk to on the phone? Who takes your order on line? Who owns that corporation?

Don't know, don't care, unless they make an issue of it.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: It's OK to do buisness with someone, as long as they HIDE who they are? They must not be PROUD of who they are?

I don't care if they're proud, open, in the closet, or what. That's their choice to make and they should do what they think is right. I'll do the same. Where I object is when I'm forced by law to support, work for, hire, or otherwise interact with people I feel are choosing to live a sinful lifestyle. And it's not just by law, when they employ what amounts to blackmail tactics that result in threats of sodomy/rape and murder, that's even worse.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Unlike religion? If you are religious, will you do buisness with those that AREN'T?

Some I do, some I don't. Again, that's MY choice to make. Not yours, not the governments, not a bunch of wackos that flood a website message board with terroristic threats.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You said yourself, you should not have to do something just becouse it's politiclly correct. Why should they? Why should ANYONE have to hide who they are? Becouse of the intolerence of the beliefs of others, that's why.

They don't HAVE to hide anything. They can do what they want. I'm not out to harm them in anyway and I don't care how they lead their lives as long as I am not forced to interact with their lifestyle.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Cruel to be kind, in the right measure? I think not.

I have no idea what you're talking about there.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I hope we all (and that means me too) get smarter someday. It's the only way we're going to survive.

And smarter to you means accepting something that the Bible, my personal faith, and even basic biology says is wrong?

No thanks.

John Stricker

Basic idiology which opposes the basic idiology that more than likely has been around since before your faith and bible even existed.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: And smarter to you means accepting something that the Bible, my personal faith, and even basic biology says is wrong? No thanks. John Stricker

not to screw up everybody's thought process but if the bible was right aren't we all related? and isn't that incest?... ok i know i'm going to get heat for this one but it's just a thought.

There once stood a lone bottle of beer. And it said to the platypus, "How doth thine wires of glory make me sweat!". The platypus smirked. Orange juice rained from the sky. It was a delicious day after all.

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'87 Fiero GT, Automatic, 153k miles, stock everything, just trying to make it all work again. :D

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: And the pedophile comment made above was just completely ignorant.

Was it? Look around you. An out-of-preportion number of "pedophile" cases are actually male homosexuals having sex with underage boys. Almost all of the Catholic Church's child abuse cases are in this catagory. Could it have anything to do with half the Catholic semanary students being homosexual? The politically correct left covers this up. Can we say North American Man-Boy Love Association? These perverts actually beleive there's nothing wrong with this. Homosexual defenders say that there is no choice of sexual orentation. If that's true then pedopiles are supposedly hard wired the same way. Do we excuse their behavior because "they can't help it"? I'm a firm believer that CONSENTING ADULTS can do anything they want IN PRIVATE (as long as no one else's harmed). BUT I'm damned tired of having homosexuality rammed down my throat and being told I have to like it. Some of you "open minded" people will call me a homophobe. A phobia is a fear. Let's be clear: I don't fear homosexuals. The thought of what they do makes me want to puke. That my "progressive" friends is revulsion, not fear. On the other hand Lesbians don't seem to bother anyone. I've never heard of a Lesbian abusing an underage girl. It's probably happened but I've never heard of it. Oh yes before some open minded person says it, heterosexual men do abuse underage girls. All too frequently. I condem them equally. And yes: I'm a heterosexual male-I'm biased on this subject but not blind or ignorant.