Originally posted by JohnnyK: Whos uncle bob.. A gay, or a pedophile, because THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Because no, I would not be mad at ALL if my babysitter was gay?! I really can't comprehend why you would be? I chill with a gay almost every day, and I'd have absolutely 100% no problem letting him around anybody. Thats the stupidest thing you've ever said. It's amazing.. Simply amazing..
And fierofetish, patrick is talking about reaction formation, which is actually apparently quite common.
They both can inset the wrong morals into a child. I know it would creep me out bigtime if a gay guy used to be my babysitter.....
Originally posted by Patrick: I don’t especially like flamboyant homosexuals, but then again, I don’t especially like flamboyant heterosexuals either. Overly macho guys and brainless bimbos can fall into either category.
I’ve just read the entire five pages of this thread, and I’ve got to say that some of the comments expressed here make me want to puke more than the thought of what gay men might do with each other in the privacy of their own bedrooms.
Initially I was going to quote a few posts and point out the nonsense which was being perpetrated, but as the number of ignorant comments piled up the less I wanted to waste time on them all.
Makes me wonder what some of you guys are the most afraid of - homosexuals, or your own suppressed, latent homosexual desires?
Flamboyent is a way of attracting a mate. The reson "most" gay men have a lisp is for identification and I've found most can switch it on or off. Some don't have one at all and you cant even tell. Oddly gay women do not have lisps because they are more open about their sexuality and don't need it.
To those who are paranoid about gays hitting on them. Don't worry, they know what your orientation is. Its a fire for effect kind of thing and they are most likeley trying to make their partner jealous. Gay women do it too and they sometimes go both ways. I don't care what ya say... thats hot.
Is this a conservative appology to the" Dixie Chicks" Todd? Are you capable of seeing the parallel?
You're blabbering again Wolfie. Try to remember this simple concept, just because it happens in your head does not make a reality for the rest of the world.
Are you capable of understanding your mistaken assumption?
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12:20 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by DRA: Yes, a group of illegal imigrants took the job! LOL
Alas...we could not stop them. It was illegal to discriminate against them because of national origin. Speaking of national origin, I don't suppose it should matter that a lot of jobs are going overseas. Heck, I see no need why you have to be American to have a fair shot. We should be encouraging jobs to go overseas. Diversity and tolerance should not stop at the American borders. The National attitude should be that "anything goes". But think about it. Then one would have to choose sides. That would be intollerant. We should defend the pros and the cons. Some believe that we shold pay into a welfare system. Some believe they should recieve those benifits. Others believe people should get a job. Who is right? Who decides who is right? Does our diversity and tolerance extend as far as to allow someone to have a different opinion without calling them a hate monger? I ask you, who is right? Let's answer that. What exactly is the question? There is no answer. This topic, to me, is about whether one has the right to decide for themselves. To me, it is not about gay rights. This is Cliff's house. Is he the only one that is allowed a house?
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02:08 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Reason my kids wont be gay is that they will know the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.
And taught conformity to other's ideals of what they should be. Mental & emotional slavery. Which I guess means any other way would require a "disownment".
Definitions of Disownment on the Web:
1. The involuntary termination of membership in a group, when a member of a group acts contrary to established discipline. Reasons for disownment have changed over time, often reflecting contemporary societal mores. Today, very few people are disowned.
Uhh, thats not indifference.. Far from it.. Thats sheer sickening ignorance.
You should leave the entire quote intact! but that would make it difficult to attack me wouldn't it. Now I am sickeningly ignorant for being willing to take any chances with a baby sitter for my grandchild and should ignore all statistics about pedophiles, give up MY RIGHT to free choice in the best interest of MY family because you do not think it's the PC thing to do? what a load of crap! next a group will threaten me and mine with death and sodomy for it.
Being willing to ignore their disgusting acts which I DO THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO BY THE WAY in every other aspect of my life and business is not enough? I HAVE TO LET THEM TUCK THE KIDS IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT TOO or be chastised as sickeningly ignorant? Jesus H Christ you are an F'ing moron.
Boonie, it is not often that your posts stimulate me to reply to them and contradict them. But here I must They will not be taught conformity to others' ideals and standards of what they should be. If one is responsible as a parent, they will be taught to conform to widely-accepted norms of behaviour, as peceived by the parents.The fact that those should resemble the general concensus of universal opinion is not a happy coincidence. It is a reflection of common sense in observing decent, moral and acceptable ways to behave in our World, which are readily available for ALL to see, and understand.And accept. Mental and emotional slavery? Or a general, educated understanding that irritability and how it affects your way of life is critical to being HAPPY, and accepted.....of which the latter is undeniably the wish of most people, I would have thought? As to the 'disownment', you are right. We are less and less demanding for the ostracisation of disruptive, rude, offensive and unsociable behaviour. And doesn't the resulting chaos spread unrest, dis-satisfaction, and worst of all, a deep resentment?Often resulting in conflict ,violence, and sometimes death. I don't KNOW much about you, but I can make an educated guess, based on your (in my opinion, at least), welcome contributions here. You are a responsible, hardworking, compassionate Family man. It worries me that you choose to rattle the oppositions' sabre in support of that which directly contradicts my , perhaps erroneous, perception of your way of life.What is it in your life that prompts you to want to make waves on your own shore? Why are you discontent enough with your life to do so? IS there something about conforming to sensible and long-established rules for us ALL to be happy together, which impels you to take this stand you appear to be making? This is not intended to be a personal attack on you, please believe me. I just want to understand this apparent contradiction in terms. Nick Edit to add: I gather from your posts that you admire, and support the Military to the hilt.In my opinion, your support is worthy.BUT.Could that be partly attributable to your subconscious admiration of the rules, regulations and established procedures that make the Military so organised and successful? The system would fall apart if there were no rules and regulations to adhere to Rather like our Society is rapidly disintegrating around us.
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Originally posted by Boondawg:
And taught conformity to other's ideals of what they should be. Mental & emotional slavery. Which I guess means any other way would require a "disownment".
Definitions of Disownment on the Web:
1. The involuntary termination of membership in a group, when a member of a group acts contrary to established discipline. Reasons for disownment have changed over time, often reflecting contemporary societal mores. Today, very few people are disowned.
2. Refusal to acknowledge as one's own.
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 11-13-2006).]
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02:47 PM
Finally_Mine_86_GT Member
Posts: 4809 From: Hyde Park, New York Registered: Sep 2006
well my son is going to grow up living in a curch enviornment because my wifes family is a religious one. Now i see organized religion as cults... they bother me sevearly... why... because i know if i don't keep an open mind for my son he will just rebell against me when he is older. If he grows up and becomes gay... so what... it's his choice... but somebody will need a mop if he is ever harmed. Maybe it's just me but as i said before... i'm ok with the gays as long as they don't try anything with me... for the record Nick... i know your pain. been there, don't like to talk about it. there is a difference between a pedo and a gay person... a large one... i know two gay guys (thier a couple) they are really cool guys and they are respectful to me by not showing effection in front of me or my son. They are just as disgusted with pedo's as i am. a friend once told me and i believe him... "intolerance is the root to ignorance" on that note i have to agree with dennis miller on this one... "of course that's just my opinion, i could be wrong"
All you have to know about satan.... eh khem... damn typo's... sorry santa is that he will spread his toys even to the gay boys and girls this year.
[This message has been edited by Finally_Mine_86_GT (edited 11-13-2006).]
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03:03 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Worth a repeat! The figure is something like 200 times more likely to molest than a hetro. It's simple math. That said by no means does that mean that gays are ALL going to engage in that type of behavior, It is just a bajillion times more likely. I know some gay folks that are pretty decent people but I can't help but think that if they think a gay act is ok what the hell else is going to be ok with them.
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Originally posted by Red88FF:
You should leave the entire quote intact! but that would make it difficult to attack me wouldn't it. Now I am sickeningly ignorant for being willing to take any chances with a baby sitter for my grandchild and should ignore all statistics about pedophiles, give up MY RIGHT to free choice in the best interest of MY family because you do not think it's the PC thing to do? what a load of crap! next a group will threaten me and mine with death and sodomy for it.
Please post a source for your statistics.
In the meantime, I'll provide you some of my own:
A 1998 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association notes one study that determined that 90 percent of pedophiles are men, and that 98 percent of these individuals are heterosexual.1
Two major studies that examined the sexual orientation of convicted child molesters found that less than 1% in one study and 0% in the other were lesbian or gay.2
The evidence is clear. Statistically, your kids are safer from sexual abuse with gays than straights. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You are entitled to hate or fear whoever you want, but don't make up statistics out of thin air as "proof" of your point of view. If you have evidence to support your statistics, please share them.
Sources:
1. Holmes, W.C. and Slap, G.B. (1998). "Sexual Abuse of Boys: Definition, Prevalence, Correlates, Sequelae and Management." Journal of the American Medical Association. 280 (21): 1855-1862.
2. A review of 352 medical records of children evaluated for sexual abuse during a 12-month period at a Denver children's hospital found that less than 1% had been abused by a gay man or a lesbian. Of 269 adult perpetrators of child abuse identified among the 352 cases of abuse, only two were gay or lesbian. The vast majority of the children in the study (82%) "were suspected of being abused by a man or a woman who was, or had been, in a heterosexual relationship with a relative of the child." And the review concluded that in this sample, "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than [the risk of being molested] by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual." Jenny, C., & Roesler, T. A. (1994). Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics, 94(1), 44. In an earlier study of convicted male child molesters in Massachusetts, none of the 175 men were found to have an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation or to be primary attracted to other adult men. Groth, A. N., & Birnbaum, H. J. (1978). Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7(3), 175-181.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-13-2006).]
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03:17 PM
F-I-E-R-O Member
Posts: 8410 From: Endwell, NY Registered: Jan 2005
Originally posted by Boondawg: Wha? Great. Next you'll be telling me something bad about Santa. I CAN'T HEAR YOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!!!!!!!!!!!! LA LA LA LA LA LAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT! Did you hear something? Is Santa OK? If you heard something, you better tell me!!!
That depends on your own moral compass. If you're Christian, the Bible tells you homosexuality is wrong. If you're athiest, that wouldn't apply to your own interpretation of right and wrong.
And you can be assured of this by what reasoning??
Reason my kids wont be gay is that they will know the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.
sorry, plenty of gays had a normal 'moral' upbringing while knowing whats 'right and wrong'.. What WILL happen is if they do turn out to be gay, they'd be ****ed up from their unsupportive parents.
Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: Reason my kids wont be gay is that they will know the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.
Wow.. just.... wow.
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04:31 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37649 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Reason my kids wont be gay is that they will know the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.
That, my friends, is a classic.
It is truly frightening that there are grown people out there in this day and age who still have misguided uninformed ignorant beliefs such as this. Unbelievable, just unbelievable.
I haven't read every post in here, but I did make a quick observation. I couldn't help but notice that many people who critisized the business owner for his opinion and for speaking his mind, are people I know I've seen staunchly support their own personal rights to their opinion, and their own personal right to express that opinion. But now that you guys disagree with this business owner, he isn't allowed the same right to free speech and personal choice that you so strongly advocate for for yourselves?
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04:40 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Boonie, it is not often that your posts stimulate me to reply to them and contradict them.
Awwwww, what a sweet way of saying I never write anything worth repling too!
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Originally posted by fierofetish: If one is responsible as a parent, they will be taught to conform to widely-accepted norms of behaviour, as peceived by the parents.
Exactly. Parents who may still be living in the stone-age.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: It is a reflection of common sense in observing decent, moral and acceptable ways to behave in OUR World, which are readily available for ALL to see, and understand. And accept.
The above underlined is all subjective. And changes from day to day, and year to year.
And who is the "WE" in "OUR" World? Only the majority, those that agree with the way they think things should be? Ask yourself this: I sleep with women. Can I dress like a woman out in public if I want? Can I act (talk, walk, etc.) like a woman in public if I want? How does that hurt anyone? It doesn't. But If you find out I sleep with men, that changes everything!
So lets not kid ourselves. It's about who we sleep with. And that should have NO bearing on how we are treated. Looking, acting, and liking things the majority don't agree with don't nessisarily make it wrong. Being different DON'T mean criminal.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: Mental and emotional slavery? Or a general, educated understanding that irritability and how it affects your way of life is critical to being HAPPY, and accepted.....of which the latter is undeniably the wish of most people, I would have thought?
Accepted? When people said the World was round, was that "accepted"? Was Gallilao accepted? Was the exsistence of hidden WMD's accepted? Was it accepted that witches were real?
Accepted don't make it true or right, anymore then ignoring something makes it go away.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: As to the 'disownment', you are right. We are less and less demanding for the ostracisation of disruptive, rude, offensive and unsociable behaviour. And doesn't the resulting chaos spread unrest, dis-satisfaction, and worst of all, a deep resentment? Often resulting in conflict, violence, and sometimes death.
That sounds like the history of Religion. Things change. Peoples thoughts & ideas expand and grow. What's seen as wrong in one culture, or time, may be seen as right in another.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: I don't KNOW much about you, but I can make an educated guess, based on your (in my opinion, at least), welcome contributions here. You are a responsible, hardworking, compassionate Family man.
I am.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: It worries me that you choose to rattle the oppositions' sabre in support of that which directly contradicts my, perhaps erroneous, perception of your way of life.
My way of life is about the freedom to live my life the way I see fit, as long as I do not hurt others in doing it. Hurting others does not include NOT conforming to others idea of how I should look, act, or live it. What might be good for my life MAY NOT be good for someone else's. I don't impose my values on others, becouse I don't want theirs imposed on me.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: What is it in your life that prompts you to want to make waves on your own shore?
I don't get what you mean.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: Why are you discontent enough with your life to do so?
Nick, for some reason I can't readily explain, I find that rather insulting. I am indeed "discontent" with some aspects of my life, abilities (or lack thereof), and some aspects of the World around me. But to say that my defending what I believe to be the fair & just treatment (or lack thereof) of another human being living his OWN life, has ANYTHING to do with my discontentment of my PERSONAL LIFE, seems to suggest that I am lashing out becouse I am miserable in my OWN life. I think I have come to know you well enough to know that was NOT your intent. I choose to think you just misworded a thought, and as such, I hold no ill-will tword you in the above statement. It just felt very dismissive, and in that light, oppressive. But if no harm was intended, no foul was scored.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: IS there something about conforming to sensible and long-established rules for us ALL to be happy together, which impels you to take this stand you appear to be making?
I despise confomity for the sake of acceptance. "Sensible" and "long-established rules" are subjective, and change all the time. It's sometimes called progress and enlightenment, and can correct the wrongs & injustis's of archaic and outdated thinking.
As far as "for us ALL to be happy together", does that "ALL" include EVERYONE, or just those that are in the majority of agreement with eachother and how they live their lives? Back in the day, it was believed by the majority that for "ALL whitemen to be happy together", all blackmen must be slaves. The country thought that in order for the "the whole country to be happy together", women can not vote. All "accepted" ways of thinking. That are no longer accepted. So when you say, "for us ALL to be happy together", you have to include EVERYONE, even if you don't aprove of the way they are (legally) living thier lives.
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Originally posted by fierofetish: This is not intended to be a personal attack on you, please believe me. I just want to understand this apparent contradiction in terms. Nick
There IS no contradiction. I support people living thier own lives, dispite weither I agree with it or not. I disavow conformity for the sake of personal freedom. I believe in live & let live. The way someone lives thier life may not be for me, but it don't have to be. And that is how it should be. It's called Freedom, and the above may very well be the exact definition of it. Free to choose the way you live your OWN life. Weather others agree with that way or not.
P.S. I took no offense to your post, and still hold you in the same regard as always.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-13-2006).]
Originally posted by Taijiguy: But now that you guys disagree with this business owner, he isn't allowed the same right to free speech and personal choice that you so strongly advocate for for yourselves?
Business owners are allowed to SPEEK freely but they are not allowed to DISCRIMINATE.. Big big big big difference.
To all who are bashing the way I am raising my kids WITHOUT ANY GAYS EVER TUCKING THEM IN AT NIGHT.. Yes, my kids will know the difference between right and wrong.. Homosexuality is wrong. Fine me a spot in the bible to show its approved.. you wont find it.
And to the few that posted negative comments aimed at the way I raise my kids without approving of gays.. please leave me a neg, because I sure left you one.
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04:47 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37649 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
sorry, plenty of gays had a normal 'moral' upbringing while knowing whats 'right and wrong'.. What WILL happen is if they do turn out to be gay, they'd be ****ed up from their unsupportive parents.
edit: this moron is not worth my time
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-13-2006).]
Business owners are allowed to SPEEK freely but they are not allowed to DISCRIMINATE.. Big big big big difference.
so if a business owner refuses to sell product to a person wearing a blue shirt does that mean they are discriminating blue shirts?
seems to me that if the owner wants to not sell to gay people he should be allowed to do just that.
im not condoning gay bashing or people who physically or verbally harm gay's, but frankly it appears that this person who owns the company sent a polite email explaining why they would not be able to meet the bid.
oh well.
matthew
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04:55 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: To all who are bashing the way I am raising my kids WITHOUT ANY GAYS EVER TUCKING THEM IN AT NIGHT.. Yes, my kids will know the difference between right and wrong.. Homosexuality is wrong. Fine me a spot in the bible to show its approved.. you wont find it.
And to the few that posted negative comments aimed at the way I raise my kids without approving of gays.. please leave me a neg, because I sure left you one.
:::shakes head:::
That right there is the difference between freedom / heretical beliefs and the the church. Good thing inquisitions are no longer in vogue.
The evidence is clear. Statistically, your kids are safer from sexual abuse with gays than straights. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You are entitled to hate or fear whoever you want, but don't make up statistics out of thin air as "proof" of your point of view. If you have evidence to support your statistics, please share them.
I do not have a link readily available, I will however look one up when I have more time. I original read an article in something like the New Yorker while flying back from Connecticut.
The article stated that given the percentage of homosexual pedophiles in prison against the,,,, I hate to call them straight pedophiles as they are all sicko's and balance that against the % they make up of the general population and they are 200 times more likely to offend. As I said I will look for a link later.
I mentioned this as somebody else brought it up too. I will not try and prove an absolute negative and clearly stated that this does not mean they will ALL DO IT. Maybe they will chime in again since I am not the only one who read it.
I never said anything about HATE only about my rights and using caution as far as my children are concerned. Do I fear harm to my kids? yes, on many fronts not just possible molestation by either hetro perverts or home perverts. The key word here is pervert.
I do not see why it is so offensive to you that I fully except gays as part of society, respect their right to be gay, will do business with them, I have friends and even family that are gay BUT I DO NOT think it is wise to let them baby sit my grandchildren and tuck them in their beds at night. So F'ing what. It's like gays won't be happy until everyone is gay! You want to do it? fine.
And if you'd take the time to read the posts you'd realize this has been covered many times in this thread.
Expressing an opinion is one thing. Refusing to do business with someone who has done you no harm or who has broken no laws is another.
Well, yeah, you're right, having just popped in here for the first time I missed all that. And I guess I just have to exercise my right to my opinion and and disagree with that. That sounds like a big smokescreen to cover up the hypocrisy. What that statement says is, he's entitled to his opinion, he's just not allowed to conduct himself or his business in compliance with his beliefs and opinions, which is the same as saying he's not allowed to have his opinion, in my opinion anyway.
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05:03 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37649 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
And to the few that posted negative comments aimed at the way I raise my kids without approving of gays.. please leave me a neg, because I sure left you one.
Thanks for the negative.
No one said you had to “approve” of gays, but you’ve already demonstrated by your comments that you aren’t the least bit interested in facts.
Tell me this - Who are you going to give a negative to if (heaven forbid!) your son grows up and is drawn to other males sexually?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-13-2006).]
Originally posted by m0sh_man: so if a business owner refuses to sell product to a person wearing a blue shirt does that mean they are discriminating blue shirts?
Only if he states it to another person or has a sign indicating it. But yeah.. thats a bias or discrimination. Now granted a shirt is optional apparel so it is only a matter of inconvience to the customer but it is a rather stupid rule or bias.
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seems to me that if the owner wants to not sell to gay people he should be allowed to do just that.
Sexual preference may be a choice but it is one that one can not just go and change like a shirt. So no, you are wrong. An employer or business man is not permitted to discriminate on that basis alone. It's just as silly as the shirt deal only alot more damaging to the individual being denied equal and fair service.
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im not condoning gay bashing or people who physically or verbally harm gay's, but frankly it appears that this person who owns the company sent a polite email explaining why they would not be able to meet the bid.
oh well.
matthew
Polite as it may seem it is a bias and it is discrimination and should not be tolorated by anyone who operates a PUBLIC business.
Originally posted by JohnnyK: sorry, plenty of gays had a normal 'moral' upbringing while knowing whats 'right and wrong'.. What WILL happen is if they do turn out to be gay, they'd be ****ed up from their unsupportive parents.
Ya know.. he could be raising a closet queen and not even know it. Just imagine little thisiswhereiputmyusername feeling the oddball all his life. No one at home understand him then one day... he commits suicide rather than disapoint his loving family.
What a shame.
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05:11 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Ok if the bible says gay is immoral does it say why? Can anyone give me a reason why it is immoral with out saying the bible says so.
Or better yet, look in a really old bible. One that hasn't been sanitized to meet changing standards.
A better question may be "What is gay?" Does it require intercourse?
Take a gay couple. Gay in everyway (as people see it, percieved as being femine in their movements & speech, holding hands, living together, hell, maybe even kissing hello & goodbye), minus intercourse. Are they still gay?
See, theres the rub. It's in how OTHER people percieve them. It's what OTHER people project onto them. It's about OTHER peoples intolerence of things they fear. Why should it matter AT ALL? How do they DAMAGE you? How do you damage THEM?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-13-2006).]
Man, I just don't get it. There must be a thousand other landscaping businesses. Why would anyone care one bit what the owner of this one thinks? Think about it, this isn't about the guy not wanting to do business with gays, it's about him openly admitting that he doesn't want to do business with them, and them being pissed because he's honest about his feelings. Why do they care so much what he thinks???? And do they think all the hostility directed at him by their peers is going to make him more receptive to their lifestyle?
[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 11-13-2006).]
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05:13 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37649 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
And I guess I just have to exercise my right to my opinion and and disagree with that. That sounds like a big smokescreen to cover up the hypocrisy. What that statement says is, he's entitled to his opinion, he's just not allowed to conduct himself or his business in compliance with his beliefs and opinions, which is the same as saying he's not allowed to have his opinion, in my opinion anyway.
You don't like it? You then have two choices:
1) Go back to the way it was in the good old days and discriminate openly against anyone you wish. Put those black people at the back of the bus where they belong.
Or:
2) Eliminate free speech, prevent people from expressing an opinion. Tighten the screws of oppression.
So what's worse, either of the two choices above, or your perceived "hypocrisy"?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-13-2006).]
