To those of you who think marriage is between a man and a woman because "they're the only two who can make a baby"... What
are you going to say to this?

PS - Did anyone read Lysistrata?

http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=9863

A new scientific breakthrough may lead to women in future being able to produce sperm.

Scientists in England have turned stem cells from am embryo into sperm which are capable of producing offspring.

The breakthrough is likely to lead to new advances in treating male infertility and even the possibility that women could manufacture sperm.

The researchers at Newcastle University say that the advance, when developed further, could help men with certain types of infertility to become fertile and even one day could enable a lesbian couple to have children that genetically would be their own.

The experiment used embryo cells to produce seven baby mice, six of whom lived into adulthood, although the survivors suffered adverse events of the kind seen in cloning experiments.

The researchers isolated embryonic stem cells from an embryo only a few days old consisting of a cluster of cells. The cells were grown in a laboratory and screened to isolate the spermatogonial stem calls which were grown and then injected into female mouse eggs and grown in early stage embryos.

The research team says its project will aid the understanding of the biological process through which sperm is produced, which should help in the future treatment of infertility.

It is hoped that this new knowledge could be translated into treatments for men whose sperm is dysfunctional, although could be some years into the future.

The research was published in the journal Developmental Cell.

what is it with men and their anxiety over being rendered redundant?

most emotionally healthy people i know do not choose their lovers or their commitments on the basis of procreation.

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 01-09-2007).]

That's a joke, son.... give it a minute. you'll get it.

These people would be better using their skills, and public money,in finding a way to reverse the fertility of men and women..so that you would need a pill to GET pregnant, not one that MIGHT just prevent an unwanted birth. It has got beyond a joke now: it is seriously messing with Nature.The Human being has become SO obsessed witrh procreation, it has forgotten to investigate the dire problems that over-population is already creating.Lesbians having children naturally? How about producing a pill to make everybody hetorosexual, as Nature intended? That is no more offensive, in MY eyes, than designer babies.And better for the World.and I am sure they could do it successfully, if they can do the insane things they are doing now.Is it a Human Right to be able to see colours properly? I don't see protest groups screaming that there should be an operation to reverse colourblindness..I am seriously colourblind..but that is a defect Nature landed me with. I am not going to demand that millions of pounds should be invested in finding a procedure to reverse it. It is my LOT, and I have to accept it.I don't demand the Right to be able to like the taste of something? Or the smell of something? Being able to procreate is not a Right, it is a gift. Why not start a procedure that will make us grow a third arm and hand,,that would be handy (no pun intended ) Now they are making operations available in the UK to help lose weight.Maybe teach them not to eat too much, would be cheaper and more effective.Self control.Anybody remember those words?
This World becomes more selfish and misguided every day.Ask a lesbian or homosexual if they would prefer to be heterosexual....if the answer is no, then surely that negates the argument they come up with that they don't choose to be gay.They are mostly not born gay..it is a mindset in the vast majority of instances. Create a pill that will enable them to be heterosexual..and see how many don't want to avail themselves of it. That would settle the arguments pretty quickly.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Ask a lesbian or homosexual if they would prefer to be heterosexual....if the answer is no, then surely that negates the argument they come up with that they don't choose to be gay.They are mostly not born gay..it is a mindset in the vast majority of instances. Create a pill that will enable them to be heterosexual..and see how many don't want to avail themselves of it. That would settle the arguments pretty quickly.

of course the reverse also holds true. you think being homsexual is a "choice" like selecting your paint job? fine... go choose to blow a guy, and see how you feel about it.

idiot.

no one who feels reasonably good about themselves would "choose" not to be what they are.

in any case, the reduction of gay/lesbian relationships to their sexual component is as offensive as it would be to reduce straight relationships. it's about who you love, not who you screw. which is the point i tried to make above: commmited relationships between healthy adults is much more than just about procreation... and any argument that reduces it to that, also reduces the depth and beauty of heterosexual marriage.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: what is it with men and their anxiety over being rendered redundant? most emotionally healthy people i know do not choose their lovers or their commitments on the basis of procreation.

right right. tho - many marriages begin due to procreation....

Eutwerpe ... ok, we have got the insults over now
WAAAAAH!! He called me an idiot!! I was born an idiot!! I'm gonna walk down Mainstreet, with all my other idiot friends, and demonstrate against you!! I'm allowed to be an idiot!! IT IS MY RIGHT!! Who are you to denigrate my birthright? See how stupid your argument is?

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: of course the reverse also holds true. you think being homsexual is a "choice" like selecting your paint job? fine... go choose to blow a guy, and see how you feel about it. ***That is the most INANE comment I have ever read!!*** Yes, it IS a choice!!IT REQUIRES MORALS AND SELF CONTROL!! OR DIDN'T YOU READ THAT BIT ABOVE? If I want to make love to my dog, is that ok?He loves me..I love him..JHC....get a brain It is as much an option, as deciding to masturbate..but if you are Jewish, you would be excommunicated for it..it is a sin!!! I have yet to read one single argument that holds any water regarding homosexuality.Do it if you want, that is your right, apparently.But don't expect a disproportionate amount of Public Time or money to be spent giving you un-natural rights..there are far more important things to be sorted, before that valuable time and money starts to deal with Gay peoples' problems. idiot.***SEE ABOVE*** no one who feels reasonably good about themselves would "choose" not to be what they are. Hahaha!! Now who is the idiot? I guess Pedaphiles, rapists and Murderers feel pretty good about themselves, don't you think? in any case, the reduction of gay/lesbian relationships to their sexual component is as offensive as it would be to reduce straight relationships. ***What the He!! could you reduce straight relationahpis to? IDIOT**** it's about who you love, not who you screw. which is the point i tried to make above: commmited relationships between healthy adults is much more than just about procreation... and any argument that reduces it to that, also reduces the depth and beauty of heterosexual marriage. JHC again!! I love my sister..why can't I sleep with her???? IDIOT AGAIN****

Euterpe,Nick and I have gone through this before.I don't agree with Nick,I agree with you in principal but I don't agree with the name calling and the crass way you have used to get your point across!

you can read the infantile drivel above and call a single word "crass"?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Ask a lesbian or homosexual if they would prefer to be heterosexual....if the answer is no, then surely that negates the argument they come up with that they don't choose to be gay.They are mostly not born gay..it is a mindset in the vast majority of instances. Create a pill that will enable them to be heterosexual..and see how many don't want to avail themselves of it. That would settle the arguments pretty quickly.

I take it you are heterosexual? At what point in your life did you CHOOSE to be hetero? You thought to yourself, hmm, which way do I want to swing - I think I'll go hetero. Tell me when you made that conscious choice. What factors led to your making that very important decision?

A big thing called Nature...I am normal first, hetorosexual is a word invented by Human beings to describe the normal human being. as per 95% of the rest of the Human population. Simple, really? Or should I apologise for that? You choose to be OTHER than normal..you don't need to choose to be normal..it is NATURAL..

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I take it you are heterosexual? At what point in your life did you CHOOSE to be hetero? You thought to yourself, hmm, which way do I want to swing - I think I'll go hetero. Tell me when you made that conscious choice. What factors led to your making that very important decision?

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Simple, really? Or should I apologise for that?

no one should ever apologize for being a simpleton.

What pathos!! What a pratt!! Your argument bounces back upon your self. The simpleton is you!! You lack so much argument, you resort AGAIN to banal insults..sadly for you, pratt, I am laughing at your total lack of ability to argue, so you insult is wasted..you lose!! Hahahahaha!!!

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: A big thing called Nature...I am normal, as per 95% of the rest of the Human population. Simple, really? Or should I apologise for that?

No, of course you don't have to apologize for being you. What I want to know is why you say your sexuality is based on Nature, but homosexuals have chosen theirs. If it's a choice, it stands to reason you made your choice too.

My point is a homosexual could no more "choose" to be straight than you could choose to be gay. You were born straight. It's who you are. Homosexuals are born gay. It's who they are. You don't have to apologize for being who you are. They shouldn't have to apologize for being who they are.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: You choose to be OTHER than normal..you don't need to choose to be normal..it is NATURAL..

I guess this girl chose to have cerebral palsy?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: What pathos!! What a pratt!! Your argument bounces back upon your self. The simpleton is you!! You lack so much argument, you resort AGAIN to banal insults..sadly for you, pratt, I am laughing at your total lack of ability to argue, so you insult is wasted..you lose!! Hahahahaha!!!

i think we found the source of that blood pressure problem.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I take it you are heterosexual? At what point in your life did you CHOOSE to be hetero? You thought to yourself, hmm, which way do I want to swing - I think I'll go hetero. Tell me when you made that conscious choice. What factors led to your making that very important decision?

Well, it COULD be said that it was choosen FOR you.
Geans, society, your parents, the people around you, surroundings, fear, programming, access to the opposite sex, etc.
Nature, Nurture, or a little of both.
I think it's more complex then just the black & white "I was born gay".
Many paths.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I guess this girl chose to have cerebral palsy?

i understand the point you're trying to make to our spluttering friend, but i have to object on the grounds that i am not a birth defect.

Thanks for arguing in an adult, intelligent nature.I am happy to explain my views..although I don't expect you to be swayed by them, any more than you expect to be swayed by mine.You don't, in MY oipinion, NEED to choose to be hetorosexual..because that is the way we were designed.However, you choose to be homosexual, a murderer, rapist, pedaphile,or to use another word, deviant (something which chooses to behave in a way not indulged in by the GREATER majority)..because that is not natural..ie, ordained by the power of Nature, which created us all.Nature created the human body, and all its abilities and receptive abilities..WE, and Society, put influences, traits and all the other things that create a CHARACTER. And a character is what controls us, along with influences from relations, friends and acquaintances.And Society.That is my belief, and until somebody gives me just reason to reject my beliefs, I will continue to defend them.Much as you do.
Nick

by the way, let me state this for those of you who aren't raving lunatics:

one - though by no means the only - essential offense in fierofetish's little tantrum is that he seeks to define me according to his prejudices. he is (presumably) not homosexual, and yet from that position of pure ignorance, he thinks he is authorized to make definitive assertions about my motivations and psychology.

"idiot" is a very restrained epithet for me to employ, i think, with regard to someone so sure that he can erase me with his foolish bluster.

and for what i hope is the very last time: the correct pronoun is "she".

Ryan, that is a very sad lamentable physical deformity, not a mental choice. It wasn't caused my a mental attitude, it was caused by an error in the poor child's PHYSICAL development, commencing in the womb. How you can even contemplate comparing that, and other, poor childrens' terrible fate, to the carnal desires of a sexual deviant is totally beyond me. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
Nick

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I guess this girl chose to have cerebral palsy?

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-09-2007).]

Here is my one point. Read this for more info on the below ramblings.

I do not go either way in the "Nature/Choice" argument, as I have gay friends, and straight friends.

I myself am straight. I have no inherent desire to attach a set of mudflaps, and take it up the wazoo.. What someone else does is their choice. Not my business...

My point is, scientists, and naturologists have found NUMEROUS repeated cases of "homosexual behavior" in nearly every higher species on the planet.

Many whale species actually FIGHT with their penises. Visual proof of one male Giraffe mounting another male Giraffe. And the one taking it, sits there and enjoys it.

I have a gay rooster. He likes to sit on eggs, and does not mind the other roosters "mounting" him...
I have a dog that likes to play with himself... Strange...

It exists in nature in many species. Humans are intelligent, yet stupid enough to assign a name to something, and then to determine it as an "Abomination"... If you don't like to swing the beef and stuff the turtle, then, don't. But don't trash someone else because they do.

Humans are known for Hypocrisy.

MANY men look at gay male sexual encounters with horror, but as soon as 2 women decide to get busy, these guys want a camera and want to jump right in.. What makes one right, and the other wrong?

My GF is bi-sexual. She enjoys women. I (obviously) support her in whatever she wants to do. But I don't personally want a male on male encounter. That is my choice.

You guys can keep throwing names around, but my semi-crazed rant above, once deciphered, should be easy enough for you to understand.

[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 01-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: you choose to be homosexual, a murderer, rapist, pedaphile,or to use another word, deviant

most rapists are straight men. therefore, i will equate you with all rapists.

perv.

Just as a mental exercize, lets remove the physical act of sex from the picture.

Now we are just talking about attraction.

What attracts you to another person?
What is it about them that makes you want to be around them?
What about that other person makes you crave to be close to them?
To share feelings, to support, to love.

Under these terms, are these 2 people gay?
Or does it require sex, to be so?

I think "Gay" is just a word used to discribe something that scares some people.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Ryan, that is a very sad lamentable physical deformity, not a mental choice. It wasn't caused my a mental attitude, it was caused by an error in the cpoor child's development. Nick

Nick,

I would argue too that some (all?) pedophiles and some (most? at least in relation to serial killers... probably most) murderers are indeed born that way. Haven't you seen the programs where some "normal" parents have a kid that is just insane? Bites, scratches, kicks people, screaming all the time... Parents have no idea what's wrong, the kid just is infinitely more agressive against everyone and everything.

Do you think kids like that made a mental choice to be like that? Or that if you just spank them, they'll say "I'm sorry" and stop?

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-09-2007).]

You really are stupid, aren't you?? Straight men are normal..rapists pedophiles, murders etc etc are DEVIANT, not straight males. I think the 'bluster 'is from your side. You still are incapable of providing a sensible argument..and that is probably because one doesn't exist.
(and yes, I am still laughing at your stupidity..my blood pressure would never be affected by your vacuous, ill-educated nonsensical blather. Now, go get yourself a tissue, and sob your little pathetic heart out)

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: You really are stupid, aren't you?? Straight men are normal..rapists pedophiles, murders etc etc are DEVIANT, not straight males.

How did you make the jump from talking about heterosexual or homosexual to rapists, pedophiles, and murders?

You do realize that being a homosexual doesn't mean you're a rapist, pedophile or murderer, right?
Just as being a rapist, pedophile or murderer doesn't mean you're homosexual.

Statistically most rapists, pedophiles, and murderers are heterosexuals.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: You really are stupid, aren't you?? Straight men are normal..rapists pedophiles, murders etc etc are DEVIANT, not straight males. I think the 'bluster 'is from your side. You still are incapable of providing a sensible argument..and that is probably because one doesn't exist. (and yes, I am still laughing at your stupidity..my blood pressure would never be affected by your vacuous, ill-educated nonsensical blather. Now, go get yourself a tissue, and sob your little pathetic heart out)

yessss.... yessss.... feeeel the hate. feeeel it flow thooooough you. excsssssselent.

sorry, darth. my emotional life is not up for "debate" as if we were discussing soy bean futures. i don't need a "sensible argument" for my own existence. you are of course free to think of me as a deviant. what i think of you in turn, is unfit for print.

cheers.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Ryan, it is being progressively proved, by RESPONSIBLE scientific investigation, that that sort of behaviour in children is caused by dietary definciencies, and poor parenting.

So then when the children are institutionalized, fed properly, and raised as properly as the staff can....... they would become "normal"? Because I have proof that that is not true.

There was a show on a self destructive boy. He hit himself, pulled out his hair, ran into walls (with great force!), etc. He was as black and blue as you'd expect. Child protective services were called on him, because they thought the parents were abusing him. Today he is physically restrained in an institution, heavily medicated, being fed through a tube. He is no better today than when he was a child. As I recall, it started at age 2, and he's now 12 or 14 or something...

Without quoting any of the above posts, I'll state that I believe that being gay is NOT a choice.
I believe it's how one is wired. It's genetic.
I also believe that there are varying degrees of "gay" (or "straight" for that matter.)
I believe it's a sliding scale with the extremes at both ends, and varying percentages (for lack of a better description) between the two extremes.

I also believe (actually *insist*) that being gay has absolutely nothing to do with being a pedophile or any other dangerous deviant behavior. (I define "dangerous" behavior as that which causes one to prey upon another.)
Certainly, there are pedophiles that prey on boys, but I'll wager there are just as many who prey on girls.

I have a very good gay friend at work. Said friend is actually much more "moral" than many of the folks I run across, day to day. One of the few people that I would trust with the keys to my house, if needed.

How old was he, Ryan? How many years of multiple influences had he already been subjected to? Unfortunately, the only way that anything can be proved beyond all doubt, is to be able to regress that child to birth, and then bring him up in a 'controlled' environment..but that can't happen, so neither you, nor I, can definitively and categorically claim we are right..
Ooops,just re-read your post..ithad already started when he was two. Children are more receptive of, and influenced by,and formed by the environmental forces they are exposed to during the first 5 years of their existence than from the later years of their childhood and puberty, I believe..that 2 years was more than enough to have formed his persona , to make him the way he is.
Nick

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: So then when the children are institutionalized, fed properly, and raised as properly as the staff can....... they would become "normal"? Because I have proof that that is not true. There was a show on a self destructive boy. He hit himself, pulled out his hair, ran into walls (with great force!), etc. He was as black and blue as you'd expect. Child protective services were called on him, because they thought the parents were abusing him. Today he is physically restrained in an institution, heavily medicated, being fed through a tube. He is no better today than when he was a child. As I recall, it started at age 2, and he's now 12 or 14 or something...

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-09-2007).]

BOOOYA

there are way more things that influance human behaviours than just simple choice or born that way. I would agree that there is much truth to being born with a predisposition to being gay. there is slight medical evidence that any males born after a mother has a first male child, that the 2nd and any males after have a predisposition to being gay. has to do with the immune system. building up some resistance during the 1st male child. not sure of details.
there is also how the child is raised. I have no examples, because this is all to vague - but we all know how important the first 5 years of a child is. a good hetero example is how "easy" girls who have no father are. the "love me daddy" thing. I expect there is some parrallel with guys.
and, finally - there IS choice. many thing may take you there - but in the end - you make a choice to do or not to do.
I did not choose like Fiero's. but I do - and now I drive one - by choice.
I myself could not ever imagine choosing a life of a gay man. maybe theres some self-destructive tendancies. much like a junkie. I'm sure most heroin addicts didnt choose to be heroin addicts. but, they choose to do heroin. I know I could be a heroin addict. I KNOW IT. i choose not to do it. I know damn well I would like it. ALOT. A REAL LOT. I didnt choose to like heroin.
unfair anology? not much. sex feels good. heroin feels good. they are both designed to make you feel good.

this is way to complex to make blanket statements. just like a tire doesnt make a car, no single thing makes someone gay.

now - whether gay is a sickness or a deviant thing - thats a whole other story.
is it a function of nature for population control? some small mammel test have showed "probably" - but, nothing conclusive.
in overall reality - wtf does it matter to you, who I have sex with? do you watch me have sex? and, if so - whos got the problem? me or the person watching me have sex? who will be hurt by me climbing up on some dude, and giving it to him?
and, on the sickness side - what makes this any different from someone who craves sex with children? of course Im not saying sex with kids is OK. but - this is obviously a line in the sand. will you say someone who wants sex with kids is sick? a deviant? so - how is this different from someone who wants sex with members of his own gender? at this point - I am just speaking of the want - not the act. you can clearly see what the parts used are made for.

for a 22 yr old man: is wanting sex with a 14 yr old girl, who has reached puberty, and by natures standrards, ready for reproduction, worse than wanting sex with a 18 yr old man, who will obviously NEVER carry a child? is one a sickness and the other not? are they both sicknesses? neither?

I would think nature would say any past puberty male & any past puberty female who choose to mate is fine. thats what puberty is all about. makin' babies. the true marker of success.

which brings us back to the topic of the thread. certain females wanting to be successful animals.
I find any artificial fertility to be a crime aginast humanity. barren men & women who force out litters of preemies with pink bug eyes, narled teeth, with endless allergies, and most likely barren themselves. just so they can feel "complete". nature stripped you of the ability for a reason. your genes suck. dont force this on another generation. reproduction is a serious thing. anyone who belives in evolution should know this. letting EVERYTHING live - and worse - reproduce - is not a "good" thing.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: neither you, nor I, can definitively and categorically claim we are right..

except that you do categorically claim that you are right, without any direct experience of what you're arguing about, or any consideration for my own narrative, my own understanding of myself. to you, people like me are by definition only what you think they are. deviants. morally equivalent to murderers. and when called on your bullshit, you devolve into a frothing eight year-old, your entries replete with emphasis and hyperbole.

and people call me crass. sheesh.

Raydar, I too have some mutual friends from Ellie who are gay. They are great people.As you say, they are kind, generous, and wouldn't dream of trying to hit on somebody else, because they are devoted to each other. They are not flamboyant, shouting 'look at me'''types.They make their relationship work within the confines of acceptable behaviour. There are probably quite a few more like them, that I have as acquaintances, who are the same, but because they behave discreetly, I am not aware of their sexuality.I am not sure that makes it any more acceptable to me...but the way they behave IS.
nick

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Without quoting any of the above posts, I'll state that I believe that being gay is NOT a choice. I believe it's how one is wired. It's genetic. I also believe that there are varying degrees of "gay" (or "straight" for that matter.) I believe it's a sliding scale with the extremes at both ends, and varying percentages (for lack of a better description) between the two extremes. I also believe (actually *insist*) that being gay has absolutely nothing to do with being a pedophile or any other dangerous deviant behavior. (I define "dangerous" behavior as that which causes one to prey upon another.) Certainly, there are pedophiles that prey on boys, but I'll wager there are just as many who prey on girls. I have a very good gay friend at work. Said friend is actually much more "moral" than many of the folks I run across, day to day. One of the few people that I would trust with the keys to my house, if needed.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Raydar, I too have some mutual friends from Ellie who are gay. They are great people.As you say, they are kind, generous, and wouldn't dream of trying to hit on somebody else, because they are devoted to each other. They are not flamboyant, shouting 'look at me'''types.They make their relationship work within the confines of acceptable behaviour. There are probably quite a few more like them, that I have as acquaintances, who are the same, but because they behave discreetly, I am not aware of their sexuality.I am not sure that makes it any more acceptable to me...but the way they behave IS. nick

and yet you feel comfortable slandering anyone like them on a public forum. i'm sure that they're grateful for your forebearance in their company, that they make possible by being effectively invisible to you.

what a great friend.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Thanks for arguing in an adult, intelligent nature.I am happy to explain my views..although I don't expect you to be swayed by them, any more than you expect to be swayed by mine.You don't, in MY oipinion, NEED to choose to be hetorosexual..because that is the way we were designed. However, you choose to be homosexual, a murderer, rapist, pedaphile,or to use another word, deviant (something which chooses to behave in a way not indulged in by the GREATER majority)..because that is not natural..ie, ordained by the power of Nature, which created us all.Nature created the human body, and all its abilities and receptive abilities..WE, and Society, put influences, traits and all the other things that create a CHARACTER. And a character is what controls us, along with influences from relations, friends and acquaintances.And Society.That is my belief, and until somebody gives me just reason to reject my beliefs, I will continue to defend them.Much as you do. Nick

This is where we disagree. I believe that, while people choose to become rapists or murderers, they do not choose to be homosexual. As I mentioned before, I know gay people. I'm even related to at least one gay person. I can't imagine that someone would make a choice that would leave them open to having to deal with all of the stuff that society throws their way. Being heterosexual would be so much easier.
So... is it normal? Probably not in the strictest sense. IOW, not as nature designed.
But does it hurt anyone else? Really? If two gay men or women choose to pair up, it's certainly no skin off my back.
Now, if they force themselves upon somebody else, that's a whole different issue. But that happens in the "straight" community too. It's called rape (or "assault", for different degrees.) And it's illegal, no matter who commits the act.
I try to make the distinction.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: This is where we disagree. I believe that, while people choose to become rapists or murderers, they do not choose to be homosexual. As I mentioned before, I know gay people. I'm even related to at least one gay person. I can't imagine that someone would make a choice that would leave them open to having to deal with all of the stuff that society throws their way. Being heterosexual would be so much easier.

Raydar..surely the stigmatism that comes with being a murderer, rapist, pedophile, etc, is far more acrimonious and causes them to be far more open to having to " deal with the stuff that Society throws their way?"...so surely that is contradictory? Not being a murderer etc would be a lot easier than being one, as opposed to being Gay?
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Raydar..surely the stigmatism that comes with being a murderer, rapist, pedophile, etc, is far more acrimonious and causes them to be far more open to having to " deal with the stuff that Society throws their way?"...so surely that is contradictory? Not being a murderer etc would be a lot easier than being one, as opposed to being Gay? Nick

But that's just it! While some persons may be born with more aggressive personality traits than others, I don't think that anyone is necessarily predisposed to being a murderer, rapist, or pedophile.
I do think that some people are predisposed to being gay (or a certain degree thereof). And again, homosexuals who respond to their predisposition are not harming anyone else (other than, perhaps, shocking a few people along the way.)

Pedophiles, rapists and murderers all have one thing in common. They have victims. They don't just keep it among themselves.

(I believe that pedophilia is a learned behavior, based upon adolescent or pre-adolescent experiences, combined with a predatory nature. But that's a topic for a whole different thread.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-09-2007).]