quote Originally posted by Uaana: Had an interesting conversation at work about this.. Anyone notice that a lot of the GW BUSH followers are a lot like hard core religious fanatics? Look at hard core reborn Christians or Muslims.. willing to lash out at anything that questions their faith. .

Edited for humor, mostly. I only added ONE word.
A valid point, IMO.
Carry on.

Just so we're clear...

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Had an interesting conversation at work about this.. Anyone notice that a lot of the GLOBAL WARMING followers are a lot like hard core religious fanatics? Look at hard core reborn Christians or Muslims.. willing to lash out at anything that questions their faith. We ask simple questions, hell not even denying that global warming is happening.. but to what extent man has had an effect and you'd think we were drawing cartoons of Mohammad, or calling the Pope a rapist.

I had a funny feeling that someone like this would show up, and say something like that...

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Edited for humor, mostly. I only added ONE word. A valid point, IMO. Carry on.

That's a very good point, Uaana. A friend and I have come to that same conclusion. There is a very good speech made by Michael Crichton that raises some interesting points about this.

1cc of pure water at 60 deg F = 1 gram
so a liter = a kilogram

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Had an interesting conversation at work about this.. Anyone notice that a lot of the GW followers are a lot like hard core religious fanatics? Look at hard core reborn Christians or Muslims.. willing to lash out at anything that questions their faith. .

Im not a Busch follower myself, I just look out for myself. I actually find the Gore followers MORE fanatical. I dont believe in the whole 'global warming...were gonna die in 50 years thing ' but i dont try to shove it down everyones throat either way.

I have decided to forgo that giant bowl of bowtie pasta today. Is anyone interested in buying my carb. credits?

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quote Originally posted by Toddster: By the way, I tend to more closely identify myself with Ragnar, if that gives you any idea about my tactics and motivations.

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: I have decided to forgo that giant bowl of bowtie pasta today. Is anyone interested in buying my carb. credits?

Only if they come with a side of bacon.

quote Originally posted by tutnkmn: Only if they come with a side of bacon.

I'd have to charge you extra for my "dead animal" credits.

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quote Originally posted by Toddster: By the way, I tend to more closely identify myself with Ragnar, if that gives you any idea about my tactics and motivations.

I find this topic quite interesting, mostly I think because there is so much grey involved. Makes for a good debate, with a lot of good things to learn from people on either side.
I have a few simple things to say in response to some of the conversations going on in this thread.

Gore’s supporters may be fanatical, I’m not sure. I haven’t noticed any with pitchforks myself, but I don’t live in the states either. What I have seen, is that most people actively standing up in strong defense of Bush are completely bat-**** crazy…

I watched that Gore movie a few months ago, and rather enjoyed it. He brought up a lot of strong points, but there were a few places where he seemed to push a little too hard. I noticed a couple glaring errors that were thrown in there for sensationalization rather than as valid arguments. I found that pretty condescending considering his obvious attempts to appeal to people’s intellect.

The global effects of melting down an ice mass like Greenland are pretty significant though. There are lots of different figures which can be used, and lots of variables that can be included or dismissed, but they all produce a very similar answer.

There’s another attitude I see a lot of, which I find very puzzling.. All the people who say things like “well, if it IS a big problem, we’ll manage anyways. People will build new houses, life will go on. Etc.”
This is an excuse not to care? That doesn’t make any sense at all! Another few thousand years and humans will have destroyed themselves anyway. Let’s start a global nuclear war, nothing matters in the end?

Sadly, I tend to think a few thousand years is a VERY optimistic prediction..I doubt 100 years will still see the Human race exisitng in the billions..and I tend to think also that the Peoples who WILL survive, will be the ones from far-flung,isolated areas that are rarely touched by today's 'Modern' Society...because I think 'Modern' Society/civilisation be the downfall of themselves, by themselves...and it will start all over again.Just my 0.02 cents.
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 03-04-2007).]

Al Gore...environmental hero?

The Tennessean reported that Gore buys "carbon offsets" to compensate for his home's use of energy from carbon-based fuels. As Wikipedia explains, a carbon offset "is a service that tries to reduce the net carbon emissions of individuals or organizations indirectly, through proxies who reduce their emissions and/or increase their absorption of greenhouse gases." . . .

But how Gore buys his "carbon offsets," as revealed by The Tennessean raises serious questions. According to the newspaper's report, Gore buys his carbon offsets through Generation Investment Management:

Gore helped found Generation Investment Management, through which he and others pay for offsets. The firm invests the money in solar, wind and other projects that reduce energy consumption around the globe . . .

Gore is chairman of the firm and, presumably, draws an income or will make money as its investments prosper. In other words, he "buys" his "carbon offsets" from himself, through a transaction designed to boost his own investments and return a profit to himself. To be blunt, Gore doesn't buy "carbon offsets" through Generation Investment Management--he buys stocks. . . .

Meanwhile, Gore runs around the country and the world trumpeting "climate crisis" and blaming man's use of carbon-based energy--burning thousands of gallons of jet fuel as he goes. His efforts have served to put climate change at the top of the national and even global agenda, driving up the value of the stocks and companies viewed as "green" or environmentally friendly. Companies like those his investment management firm invest his own and other peoples' [sic] money in. (You can see a list of Generation Investment Management's holdings here, courtesy of the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission.)

=====================

So...he buys carbon credits...from himself

Some talk and profit from it, while others do the walk, and don't make a big deal about it....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_Chapel_Ranch

quote The passive-solar house is positioned to absorb winter sunlight, warming the interior walkways and walls of the residence. Geothermal heat pumps circulate water through pipes buried 300 feet (100 m) deep in the ground. A 40,000 US gallon (151 m³) underground cistern collects rainwater gathered from roof urns; wastewater from sinks, toilets, and showers cascades into underground purifying tanks and is also funneled into the cistern. The water from the cistern is then used to irrigate the landscaping around the four-bedroom home. Photographs of the interior of the house indicate a sophisticated take on rough-hewn living, with generous English-style club chairs covered in what appears to be printed Fortuny linen. Bush added an 11 acre (45,000 m²) man-made pond that he stocked with 600 largemouth bass and 30,000 bait fish. There are also shad, bluegill, and yellow perch, though it's unclear which of a dozen possible types of "perch" is present. The pond reaches a maximum depth of 17 feet.

I am going to give Gore the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that GIM is a real company that actually IS building things like wind farms, solar capture, and other types of environmentally friendly projects.

Now if that's so, what is the difference if he buys them through GIM or if he simply builds his own wind farm, solar panels, etc.? Other than by doing it through a larger company he can pool capital that will enable him to build larger, more expensive, and (hopefully) more efficient projects.

I really don't see anything wrong with him doing it this way, myself, even if he does make a profit from it. I have no problems with people making a profit from things like this. Profit is good. Profit is what enables people to do more than they could before.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Al Gore...environmental hero? The Tennessean reported that Gore buys "carbon offsets" to compensate for his home's use of energy from carbon-based fuels. As Wikipedia explains, a carbon offset "is a service that tries to reduce the net carbon emissions of individuals or organizations indirectly, through proxies who reduce their emissions and/or increase their absorption of greenhouse gases." . . . But how Gore buys his "carbon offsets," as revealed by The Tennessean raises serious questions. According to the newspaper's report, Gore buys his carbon offsets through Generation Investment Management: Gore helped found Generation Investment Management, through which he and others pay for offsets. The firm invests the money in solar, wind and other projects that reduce energy consumption around the globe . . . Gore is chairman of the firm and, presumably, draws an income or will make money as its investments prosper. In other words, he "buys" his "carbon offsets" from himself, through a transaction designed to boost his own investments and return a profit to himself. To be blunt, Gore doesn't buy "carbon offsets" through Generation Investment Management--he buys stocks. . . . Meanwhile, Gore runs around the country and the world trumpeting "climate crisis" and blaming man's use of carbon-based energy--burning thousands of gallons of jet fuel as he goes. His efforts have served to put climate change at the top of the national and even global agenda, driving up the value of the stocks and companies viewed as "green" or environmentally friendly. Companies like those his investment management firm invest his own and other peoples' [sic] money in. (You can see a list of Generation Investment Management's holdings here, courtesy of the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission.) ===================== So...he buys carbon credits...from himself

quote Originally posted by Notchie Luvin David: ..... There’s another attitude I see a lot of, which I find very puzzling.. All the people who say things like “well, if it IS a big problem, we’ll manage anyways. People will build new houses, life will go on. Etc.” This is an excuse not to care? That doesn’t make any sense at all! Another few thousand years and humans will have destroyed themselves anyway. Let’s start a global nuclear war, nothing matters in the end?

thats the thing - its not actually a big problem at all. has anyone told you what the worst case scenario is?

quote Now if that's so, what is the difference if he buys them through GIM or if he simply builds his own wind farm, solar panels, etc.?

The difference is Al Gore is a pompous ass that wants all the unwashed masses to bow at the altar of his new religion by tithing to a global energy tax, riding bicycles and all Americans having to live under the Draconian Kyoto protocol.
Meanwhile, "developing nations" have no mandate to do so. and while all this is going on, "honest Al" is riding in his Gulfstream, and using twenty times more electricity than his neighbors.

Al Gore buying carbon credits while he claims to be concerned about excessive pollution, is like Rosie O'Donnell being concerned about starving people in Africa. "Wow that sucks that children are dying of malnutrition, so to be fair I am going to diet while eating deep fried spam, I will be purchasing my calorie credits from a business that I own."

Anyone that buys into global warming deserves to be ripped off, the guy has a track record of being a hypocritical, congenital liar.

[This message has been edited by trailboss (edited 03-05-2007).]

" high fives ".............LOL

BTW, my new company is selling asteroid insurance for at least 1/2 of what anyone else is asking. Just send the dollar amount of coverage you want, and enclose a check for $1.00 per thousand of coverage. This is a one time charge, no more monthly or annual rate. Offer expires Jan 08. Coverage will pay upon proof of loss in cash, tax free........

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I really don't see anything wrong with him doing it this way, myself, even if he does make a profit from it. I have no problems with people making a profit from things like this. Profit is good. Profit is what enables people to do more than they could before. John Stricker

Ordinarilly, I'd agree with you. But since this is Al Gore, and AGW is scientifically questionable, and the efforts to mitigate it are equally questionable, and Al Gore is a hypocrite by shaking his accusing finger at the world for consumption while he consumes gross amounts of energy...I'm just not so willing to give him any slack.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Ordinarilly, I'd agree with you. But since this is Al Gore, and AGW is scientifically questionable, and the efforts to mitigate it are equally questionable, and Al Gore is a hypocrite by shaking his accusing finger at the world for consumption while he consumes gross amounts of energy...I'm just not so willing to give him any slack.

in his thinking, it is spending $5 to save $50. and, you really dont have any idea how much energy he consumes. seems these Al Gore haters are like religous fanatics. screaming he's the devil or something. I think greenhouse gasses is horsecrap too - but, what he is doing is absolutely harmless.

or, are you still pissed about lead being removed from paints? & from gasoline? and DDT not being used anymore? or still working out how the world could be round?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: in his thinking, it is spending $5 to save $50. and, you really dont have any idea how much energy he consumes. seems these Al Gore haters are like religous fanatics. screaming he's the devil or something. I think greenhouse gasses is horsecrap too - but, what he is doing is absolutely harmless. or, are you still pissed about lead being removed from paints? & from gasoline? and DDT not being used anymore? or still working out how the world could be round?

A. We have a good idea of how much energy he consumes, just on the surface looking at his utility bills for his 3 estates it's pretty obvious, and that's not taking into account the amount of Jet travel he does.
Biggest scam going now is this buying carbon credits crap.. I'm pissed I didn't think of it.
B. Unlike lefties who want the US VP killed, etc ad nasuem.. I think Gore is a hypocrite and a liar.. Doesnt mean I hate him
C. Where has anyone on the globalwarming skeptic side, said anything along the lines of pumping lead back into the environment? Pouring mercury into lakes and rivers?? Nowhere!! that's where..
Just because someone questions the science of global warming, doesn't mean we think we should pour arsnic on baby seals!
And you're wrong about DDT
http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html or read the link Bear put up from Creichton.

[This message has been edited by Uaana (edited 03-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: in his thinking, it is spending $5 to save $50. and, you really dont have any idea how much energy he consumes. seems these Al Gore haters are like religous fanatics. screaming he's the devil or something. I think greenhouse gasses is horsecrap too - but, what he is doing is absolutely harmless.

No, he is NOT harmless. Not when he's pushing crap like Kyoto and forcing carbon credits, which will HURT our economy. I wonder how much support he'll get from the left when jobs start disappearing after their beloved global warming legislation promised by Pelosi?

quote are you still pissed about lead being removed from paints? & from gasoline? and DDT not being used anymore? or still working out how the world could be round?

Dude...what the hell are you talking about? When did I say I was pissed about lead being removed from paint and gasoline? And DDT? Geez, do some research on that. The DDT ban was stupid. Do you have any idea how many have died because DDT was banned? Try tens of millions of preventable deaths from malaria.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I wonder how much support he'll get from the left when jobs start disappearing after their beloved global warming legislation promised by Pelosi?

This has always cracked me up.. Unions will stand by their big D, while the other half of the party tries to put them out of work.
The Green, Nader bunch would love nothing more than to stop logging, mining, drilling etc etc.. (all those dirty bluecollar jobs).

I've been trying to tell you guys about this carbon credit crap and what Kyoto was REALLY all about for a couple of years now. I'm glad some people are finally paying attention.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Uaana: A. We have a good idea of how much energy he consumes, just on the surface looking at his utility bills for his 3 estates it's pretty obvious, and that's not taking into account the amount of Jet travel he does. Biggest scam going now is this buying carbon credits crap.. I'm pissed I didn't think of it. B. Unlike lefties who want the US VP killed, etc ad nasuem.. I think Gore is a hypocrite and a liar.. Doesnt mean I hate him C. Where has anyone on the globalwarming skeptic side, said anything along the lines of pumping lead back into the environment? Pouring mercury into lakes and rivers?? Nowhere!! that's where.. Just because someone questions the science of global warming, doesn't mean we think we should pour arsnic on baby seals! And you're wrong about DDT http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html or read the link Bear put up from Creichton.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: No, he is NOT harmless. Not when he's pushing crap like Kyoto and forcing carbon credits, which will HURT our economy. I wonder how much support he'll get from the left when jobs start disappearing after their beloved global warming legislation promised by Pelosi?

yes, I agree that there is no need Kyoto & such nonsense.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Im not a Busch follower myself,

Me either. I don't much like Budweiser. I much prefer Miller.
(Actually, I don't drink beer. Just thought it would be funny to throw in there.)

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I've been trying to tell you guys about this carbon credit crap and what Kyoto was REALLY all about for a couple of years now. I'm glad some people are finally paying attention. John Stricker

No argument from me here.

How do you think the left will pin it on the right? Under the umbrella of "offshoring"?

what makes you think the US will adopt Kyoto?
while it is becoming less & less so - we are still an industrial country.
and, if our competition wont step up - then we wont. the only way the US could adopt this would be if we closed our borders to imports to keep the dollars from explodeing out of our pockets. and, our pockets are the governments pockets.

Put a liberal (key word is LIBERAL here) Democrat in the White House and get a few more seats in the Senate and Kyoto will be ratified. Don't think it won't be.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: what makes you think the US will adopt Kyoto? while it is becoming less & less so - we are still an industrial country. and, if our competition wont step up - then we wont. the only way the US could adopt this would be if we closed our borders to imports to keep the dollars from explodeing out of our pockets. and, our pockets are the governments pockets.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Put a liberal (key word is LIBERAL here) Democrat in the White House and get a few more seats in the Senate and Kyoto will be ratified. Don't think it won't be. John Stricker

well, maybe to squelch your guy's fears, you should create a experiment which proves the non-existance of the greenhouse effect.
I completely understand the mistrust for elected officials. and add to that the herds of people fooled into believing in greenhouse gasses. this is turning into one shiney turd.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, maybe to squelch your guy's fears, you should create a experiment which proves the non-existance of the greenhouse effect. I completely understand the mistrust for elected officials. and add to that the herds of people fooled into believing in greenhouse gasses. this is turning into one shiney turd.

There IS proof that AGW is bullshit, but those who are pushing it believe in it just like it is a religion. You *can't* prove or disprove a faith.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: There IS proof that AGW is bullshit, but those who are pushing it believe in it just like it is a religion. You *can't* prove or disprove a faith.

I dunno what AGW is
global warming IS happening, there is no question about that
greenhouse gas model is JUNK - CO2 is irrelevant - has nothing to do with the average temp increases & melting glaciers
both sides are fanatical

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I dunno what AGW is global warming IS happening, there is no question about that greenhouse gas model is JUNK - CO2 is irrelevant - has nothing to do with the average temp increases & melting glaciers both sides are fanatical

Almost right, I agree as well that global warming is happening to an extent.
Where the critics of Gore's Crisis start to question is the extent that man has had on the the global climate.
Your own argument falls apart because you're looking at greenhouse gases and CO2 without putting them in context
A. Mini Ice Age 1st centry-10th century
B. Mini warm period 13th -16th century
C. Solar Cycles
D. Earth's rotational tilt (wobble)
E. Growing population in general expelling more CO

Gore and his minions are too quick 1 or 2 pieces of information while dismissing other parts of the equation.

And the thought that if you "donate" $160 to buy efficent washing machines for a third world country is offsetting your gas guzzling, diesel burning, 200k kwt using is absurd beyond reason.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I dunno what AGW is global warming IS happening, there is no question about that greenhouse gas model is JUNK - CO2 is irrelevant - has nothing to do with the average temp increases & melting glaciers both sides are fanatical

Sorry...AGW = Anthroprogenic Global Warming. Anthroprogenic = humans are causing it, as opposed to "it's happening, but it's being caused by the sun, the earth's orbit, cosmic rays, lack of volcanic activity, part of a normal cycle, etc"

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Almost right, I agree as well that global warming is happening to an extent. Where the critics of Gore's Crisis start to question is the extent that man has had on the the global climate. Your own argument falls apart because you're looking at greenhouse gases and CO2 without putting them in context A. Mini Ice Age 1st centry-10th century B. Mini warm period 13th -16th century C. Solar Cycles D. Earth's rotational tilt (wobble) E. Growing population in general expelling more CO Gore and his minions are too quick 1 or 2 pieces of information while dismissing other parts of the equation. And the thought that if you "donate" $160 to buy efficent washing machines for a third world country is offsetting your gas guzzling, diesel burning, 200k kwt using is absurd beyond reason.

not my arguement - I'm saying it is junk as well
and, you should also add Earths orbit around sun is not constant as well

OOOps should have read complete thread befor sticking foot in mouth.

[This message has been edited by Fiero STS (edited 03-06-2007).]

David Suzuki is the Canadian Al Gore equivalent travelling around the country, doing speeches, getting his face in the news, on TV etc. We've been bombarded by this guy since the beginning of the year when this Glo-bull Warming issue took off because of a warmer than normal December in the eastern section of the country. Global Warming is the culprit of course. "The Movement" is still going strong in spite of the fact that those same areas have been buried in some of the biggest snowstorms in January, followed by some record breaking cold temperatures in February LOL Of course, Global Warming is responsible for that too!

He's been running around the country saying "the MAJORITY of Canadians are in favor of Kyoto." "It's the MOST important issue in the minds of Canadians". "They feel this is a vital issue and we MUST act". "They are prepared to pay whatever costs are necessary". Blah, blah, blah. The adage is true: If you say something over and over again long enough, people will start to believe it's true.

The Suzuki Foundation posted an online Poll - I suppose so they could have "numbers" to back all the statemenst they've been spouting. It kind backfired and they took it down. Over 85% said NO - if we can't meet the Kyoto targets (and nobody else is onboard anyway) why bother.

It WAS here: http://www.davidsuzuki.org/...p?p=9&msg=already&z=

A blogger captured the latest results before they shut it down. About halfway down the page.
http://www.officiallyscrewed.com/blog/

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Crap. What that shows is that with any kind of sea level rise, I'll need to relocate the PFF server.

Hmmm, might just be time to invest in stilt futures!

BTW, welcome back trailboss, you've been missed.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 03-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Hmmm, might just be time to invest in stilt futures!

Hey, if Al Gore can sell carbon credits to himself, should we feel bad selling stilts to the Dutch?

Well think what you want.

Mt. Washington just broke another record,

Coldest day on record for the day yesterday.

So correct me if I am wrong.

If we are in a global warming, shouldn’t the temperatures be climbing?

Al Gore was a crook when he was a senator in TN. I Know I lived in TN then.

And he has not changed any.

Global warming my ass.

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Well think what you want. Mt. Washington just broke another record, Coldest day on record for the day yesterday. So correct me if I am wrong. If we are in a global warming, shouldn’t the temperatures be climbing? Al Gore was a crook when he was a senator in TN. I Know I lived in TN then. And he has not changed any. Global warming my ass.

silly person.....its winter
maybe you should find out what global warming actually is. actually, I think many should. 1st of: its NOT a catastrophic thing. its not like 150 degree summers temps. its not 90 degree winters. its not even 5 degrees difference from "normal" temps. the problem is nature keeps a tight balance. systems like the oceans conveyor system, which steady's/dampen global temps is affected. this is what keep the northern areas from totally freezing during winter. so, in fact - if global warming is taking effect - the northern areas will have COLDER than normal winter spike temps - especially ones near the oceans - like Maine. this is why every ice age is proceeded by a period of warming. and - Ice age isnt as catastrophic either. the world is not a ball of ice.

anyways - no matter what is causing global warming - it is NOT anything most people even need to be concerned about. and, the ice age that follows - again - NO BIG DEAL.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Well think what you want. Mt. Washington just broke another record, Coldest day on record for the day yesterday. So correct me if I am wrong. If we are in a global warming, shouldn’t the temperatures be climbing? Al Gore was a crook when he was a senator in TN. I Know I lived in TN then. And he has not changed any. Global warming my ass.

YES YOU ARE WRONG
and neo-conned [but thats the samething]
local one day temps matter NOT AT ALL
on top of a mountian even less
in fact expect wild weather with record lows and snows
in some places some times driven by global warming

what does matter is AVG temps all over the earth
not any one day or one place

''Global warming my ass''
yes your butt will be toastie
and my rear will be under water in south fla
and it will be warmer water

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: YES YOU ARE WRONG and neo-conned [but thats the samething] local one day temps matter NOT AT ALL on top of a mountian even less in fact expect wild weather with record lows and snows in some places some times driven by global warming

In other words, not matter WHAT the result, they are right about global warming.

AGW is *religion*. You can't argue religions with logic.