quote Originally posted by jstricker: I disagree. Ammonium Nitrate and diesel fuel in the proper proportions and placed in the proper location can be far more efficient.

Sure, that's why we read of so many people being killed everyday by other people with explosive devices (not including war zones).

Come on John, you know exactly what I meant.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: We can do without a "flame fest", but what better place to civilly discuss the pros and cons of gun control than in a thread where it’s been mentioned that a single individual with a firearm has just shot and killed more than 30 innocent people? It’s not as if this thread is some sort of an official memoriam for the victims which their families will be viewing.

OK. Increased gun control does not prevent people from acting violently, just as increased drug laws have not prevented drug use. Increased gun control laws will also not make it much harder for people to get guns. Outlawing objects doesn't work, as there are always people willing to take the risk (and associated profits) from dealing in outlawed or restricted items.

Perhaps if one person had carried a weapon for self defense, this tragedy could have been averted or lessened. However, since Virginia legislators decided to prevent college students from protecting themselves, a victim disarmament zone was created, allowing to gunman to go on a rampage.

If this is anything like Columbine, there's probably someone out there sweatin' bullets (no pun intended) and trying to cover their ass that could have done something to prevent this... Just a feeling, and time will tell. Wonder why they don't release the gunman's name?

Canada has very very very very restrictive gun laws.

People are shot to death up there all the time. Hmmmm, no brainer, no arguement.

No, actually I don't.

If by some miracle all of the guns ceased to exist, other methods would be used. An explosive device is quite efficient. Ramming a car through a crowded building is quite efficient. A head on collision with a school bus is quite efficient. The absence of guns would not equal the absence of violence.

Read your history about the things that went on in Medevial days, no guns were needed, plenty of wanton murder, rape, and violence to go around.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Sure, that's why we read of so many people being killed everyday by other people with explosive devices (not including war zones). Come on John, you know exactly what I meant.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: We can do without a "flame fest", but what better place to civilly discuss the pros and cons of gun control than in a thread where it’s been mentioned that a single individual with a firearm has just shot and killed more than 30 innocent people? It’s not as if this thread is some sort of an official memoriam for the victims which their families will be viewing.

I'd have to suggest that this probably isn't the most civil place to discuss this particular topic, My little question on the first page has already earned me a few -, at least not if you want to stick around this forum. This one will probably get me a few more.

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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-16-2007).]

I would be interested if somebody could give some figures at to how many gun crimes are commited in the USA, with stolen guns, as opposed to crimes commited by a registered, legal gun owner, with their own gun?
I don't like guns.I have always been opposed to them, but as the US was built on the power of guns to an extent, and are a main feature of US history, it would be futile to try to ban them now.Unfortunately, the price of gun ownership seems to be paid almost daily..but that could be said anywhere in the World now
Nick

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Canada has very very very very restrictive gun laws. People are shot to death up there all the time. Hmmmm, no brainer, no arguement.

I think if you did some honest research, you'd find out it doesn't happen up here all that often. However, having said that...

Gun control and "victim disarmament zones" don't seem to be the answer if criminals and madmen are still able to purchase and use firearms. It's a difficult problem with no simple solution.

I own a handgun, odds are I will NOT have that handgun with me if I ever encounter a situation where it would be beneficial to my safety or the safety of others. This is because I do follow the gun laws, even if I had a carry permit it still is illegal to carry in most public places.

I know my reference to shoe strings was over the top, but it was meant to be, I think it's crazy to think that regulating anything is going to stop tragedys such as the one that occured today. It is illegal for minors to purchase alcohol and tabacco products and I don't see where that has stopped or even slowed their ability to obtain these substances. I see absolutely no difference in making guns illegal and the current drug laws that are in place, they have not stopped and whether they have even affected availability of illegal drugs is questionable. You take the right to own guns away from the general public and the criminals will have that much more confidence. On the other hand if every one of those students was armed and was knowledgeble in the proper use of firearms the body count may have been considerably lower.
As far as distance, I am pretty consistant out to 40 yards with a bow.

This guy most likely was not your common criminal who uses a firearm, this was most likely a very disturbed individual. But I'm sure if he was determined to kill people he could have obtained a firearm through normal criminal channels and if that was not available he may have resorted to pipe bombs or a uhaul loaded with fertilizer and deisel fuel. The point is that people will find a way to accomplish their goals regardless of regulations and laws.

This is a very touchy subject and it's normal for people to discuss guns and gun control when something like this occurs. I'm not trying to be combative and as far as I can tell no one else has been. We're all entitled to our opinions and more importantly feelings and should feel free to voice them, especially at times like this.

If I thought for one second that extreme gun control legislation would prevent people from killing people I would be all for it, the sad reality is that people will always find a way to hurt one another.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Canada has very very very very restrictive gun laws. People are shot to death up there all the time. Hmmmm, no brainer, no arguement.

True... only the people that shouldnt have guns tend to have most of them as they dont follow the red tape..

I was looking for a new handgun, but gave up after reading about the hoops I would need to jump through..

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I think if you did some honest research, you'd find out it doesn't happen up here all that often. However, having said that... Gun control and "victim disarmament zones" don't seem to be the answer if criminals and madmen are still able to purchase and use firearms. It's a difficult problem with no simple solution.

I do remember seeing a study back in the 80's that compared a major city in Canada and a major city of comparable size in the US and the deaths from guns were almost non existant in the canadian city, the murder rate was similar but at least they weren't using guns.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Unfortunately, the price of gun ownership seems to be paid almost daily..but that could be said anywhere in the World now Nick

It's not the price of gun ownership, it's the price we pay for being human. A lot of people don't like guns because they see the evil committed with them, and associate that evil with the gun. What people don't realize, or are afraid to acknowledge, is that the evil doesn't flow from the barrel of a gun, it originates from a person. We all have the seeds of violence in us, down on a genetic level. Look at human history, and the amount of violence and cruelty that people inflict on one another. And it's not just the past, look around the world and see atrocities committed daily. Some make the headlines, others don't, but the bottom line is, we are a violent species by nature. Combine that with the fact that we tend to be impulsive, and you have the recipe for problems.

Even if you could make every gun disappear tomorrow, it would not do a thing to prevent violence. People who give in to that part of our nature will find a way to inflict carnage on others, with or without a gun.

quote Originally posted by isthiswhereiputausername?: True... only the people that shouldnt have guns tend to have most of them as they dont follow the red tape.. I was looking for a new handgun, but gave up after reading about the hoops I would need to jump through..

Here in Georgia it's not that hard to buy one, it's just that you can't really carry it on you in public places. I even checked into getting a concealed carry permit and according to the law I would not be able to legally carry it in the mall, a church, etc, basically places where people gather.
When I was younger I got "fussed" at by a policeman who searched my car, I informed him I had a pistol under my seat. He came back and told me he had placed it on the dash and that I was supposed to leave it in a place where it could be seen! Like I'm going to park my car and leave a smith and wesson model 29 44 mag 8 3/8ths inch barrel laying on the dash, I'm sure it would be there when I got back!
It's almost like the criminals had a hand in writing the laws, the way they are written it seems to make it less likely that they will run into someone who might shoot back.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: My little question on the first page has already earned me a few - This one will probably get me a few more.

Ron, what's more important - stating your beliefs or retaining a lot of "green" in your bar?

I hate to see anyone (except for hatemongers) afraid of stating their beliefs (in a civil manner) simply because they're afraid of being voted off the island.

If it’s any consolation, I’ve added a “+” to your tally.

Pat,
I'll stick with what I said earlier, I'm refraining from discussing any type of Gun Control in this thread out of respect for the dead, injured and their families. I was just surprised that I got negs for asking someone to tell me again why we need the right to own/carry semi-automatic pistols. I simply don't understand why anyone, oh, never mind, I'll say it when a thread about that issue comes up.

I and everyone else (IMO) should be in mourning over this horrible event.

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Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Ron, what's more important - stating your beliefs or retaining a lot of "green" in your bar? I hate to see anyone (except for hatemongers) afraid of stating their beliefs (in a civil manner) simply because they're afraid of being voted off the island. If it’s any consolation, I’ve added a “+” to your tally.

I tend to agree, I may not make sense some times LOL but I do try to keep it civil and if I don't agree with someones opinion I still respect their right to have it.
And I'm sure everyone here already agrees that this was a senseless tragedy and we all feel for the families and friends that have been affected regarless of our opinions or position on the gun issue.

quote Originally posted by DRA: I do remember seeing a study back in the 80's that compared a major city in Canada and a major city of comparable size in the US and the deaths from guns were almost non existant in the canadian city, the murder rate was similar but at least they weren't using guns.

Okay, now find me a study in which mass murders (such as today's) have taken place by an individual armed with a knife (or with a shoelace!). It just doesn't happen. (Ya ya, it happened with Kool-Aid once.)

That's why I stated earlier that firearms are such efficient killing devices. Easily hidden, portable, cheap, deadly...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Okay, now find me a study in which mass murders (such as today's) have taken place by an individual armed with a knife (or with a shoelace!). It just doesn't happen. (Ya ya, it happened with Kool-Aid once.) That's why I stated earlier that firearms are such efficient killing devices. Easily hidden, portable, cheap, deadly...

September 11, 2001. Hijackings accomplished with box cutters.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Okay, now find me a study in which mass murders (such as today's) have taken place by an individual armed with a knife (or with a shoelace!). It just doesn't happen. (Ya ya, it happened with Kool-Aid once.) That's why I stated earlier that firearms are such efficient killing devices. Easily hidden, portable, cheap, deadly...

Do box cutters qualify as knives?

opps, you beat me to it GT86

I was going to cite Rwanda and Burundi but they used guns as well as machetes and just simply setting people on fire.

[This message has been edited by DRA (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: We can do without a "flame fest", but what better place to civilly discuss the pros and cons of gun control than in a thread where it’s been mentioned that a single individual with a firearm has just shot and killed more than 30 innocent people? It’s not as if this thread is some sort of an official memoriam for the victims which their families will be viewing.

Because I know how discussions like these can start of civilly, but rarely end up that way. But, you're right, this thread is not an official memoriam for the victims.

For the discussion of gun control, I'll just post some excerpts from this link. It goes into much more detail, and source data is quoted on the page, so please click the link if you want to know more: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html#10

" In the first 30 years of [the 20th] century, U.S. per capita handgun ownership remained stable, but the homicide rate rose tenfold.[2] Subsequently, between 1937 and 1963, handgun ownership rose by 250 percent, but the homicide rate fell by 35.7 percent.[3]

Switzerland, through its militia system, distributes both pistols and fully automatic assault rifles to all adult males and requires them to store their weapons at home. Further, civilian long-gun purchases are essentially unregulated, and handguns are available to any adult without a criminal record or mental defect. Nevertheless, Switzerland suffers far less crime per capita than the United States and almost no gun crime. "

"Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]"

"In 1911 state senator Timothy Sullivan of New York promised that if New York City outlawed handgun carrying, homicides would decline drastically. The year the Sullivan law took effect, however, homicides increased and the New York Times pronounced criminals "as well armed as ever."

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: No, actually I don't. Ramming a car through a crowded building is quite efficient.

John, they must build school dorms quite differently down there with HUGE hallways and doorways. I can't imagine someone being able to drive their car through a school dorm up here and pick off more than 30 students in the process.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: The absence of guns would not equal the absence of violence. Read your history about the things that went on in Medevial days, no guns were needed, plenty of wanton murder, rape, and violence to go around.

I am aware of what went on in Medieval days. True, there have always been violent people. However, the ability for a single individual to cause mayhem on such an enormous scale as today's massacre is certainly enhanced with the use of a firearm.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: John, they must build school dorms quite differently down there with HUGE hallways and doorways. I can't imagine someone being able to drive their car through a school dorm up here and pick off more than 30 students in the process.

OK, how about the evil-doer just wait until there are, oh, 500 people waiting in line to get into a concert on campus, or a sports event. Just because THIS event happened in a dorm and classroom doesn't mean the next one will.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I am aware of what went on in Medieval days. True, there have always been violent people. However, the ability for a single individual to cause mayhem on such an enormous scale as today's massacre is certainly enhanced with the use of a firearm.

That has been enhanced now by more than just the invention of the gun, Patrick. A city the size of the VT Campus back 200 years ago would be a large, thriving place indeed. In addition to firearms, the CAPABILITY to injure large numbers has been hugely enhanced by our (US and the rest of the world) herding the humans into small gathering places in large numbers. Given the number of living souls in one place, any number of methods could be used to cause them great harm.

I own guns. I hunt and target shoot. I don't think they're appropriate to be kept on a campus like VT by students or faculty, but that's my opinion and, in fact, I believe runs contrary to OUR constitution. I'm just tired of people saying "If he hadn't had a gun it wouldn't have happened". You don't know that. I don't know that. So don't say it (no, you didn't SAY it, but you are definitely inferring it).

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I wasn't aware that all those people were killed by the box-cutters themselves. I was led to believe it was the plane crash(es) that killed everyone. However, if you wish to start bringing anything and everything into this discussion, I'm sure we can find examples of mass deaths resulting from the improper use of a wooden match.

Nice dodge. That's like saying "I didn't kill him by pushing him out the window from 10 stories up. He only died when he hit the ground."

You asked for examples of mass murder that involved knives, I simply provided the most infamous case.

But you've identified the underlying issue here. People can, and will, find a way to slaughter large numbers of people if they are so inclined, with or without a firearm.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm just tired of people saying "If he hadn't had a gun it wouldn't have happened". You don't know that. I don't know that. So don't say it (no, you didn't SAY it, but you are definitely inferring it).

John, please don't try and put words in my mouth.

I have stated in this thread that firearms make it much easier for deranged individuals to cause a maximum amount of mayhem with a minimal amount of effort.

Let's face it, that's why guns are the weapons of choice in such a high number of these type of atrocities (not counting terrorists and car-bombs, although I can see this as an increasing problem).

Show me an example of the last time some nutcase purposely killed 30 people with a car... or a knife... or a shoelace.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I and everyone else (IMO) should be in mourning over this horrible event.

The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future, but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
-Buddha

Maybe this is more fitting...

Man's inhumanity to man makes countless thousands mourn!
-Robert Burns

[This message has been edited by F-I-E-R-O (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Show me an example of the last time some nutcase purposely killed 30 people with a car... or a knife... or a shoelace.

Didn't Timothy Mcveigh Use a van to puposefully kill like 160 some people? Oh wait that right it was the explosives inside that did it. Guns or not, people will always kill each other. There will be another murder in Philadelphia today. It might be with a gun or some crack head might get stabbed to death who knows. It seems there is only one variable that is constant in all of these stories of tragedy . . . . . Humans . As long as there are humans, there will always be killing.


edit to add: Do you guys remeber the lady that ran over her husband with their benzs, she ran him over like 5 times

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REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 04-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by DRA: but at least they weren't using guns.

Yep.. Frozen lobsters, frozen fish, and anything else nearby

quote Originally posted by Patrick: John, please don't try and put words in my mouth. I have stated in this thread that firearms make it much easier for deranged individuals to cause a maximum amount of mayhem with a minimal amount of effort. Let's face it, that's why guns are the weapons of choice in such a high number of these type of atrocities (not counting terrorists and car-bombs, although I can see this as an increasing problem). Show me an example of the last time some nutcase purposely killed 30 people with a car... or a knife... or a shoelace.

A man that does this is looking for a release of his pain. His pain is inadequacy. He wants attention and he doesn't want to do it so to speak. Killing 30 people at a mall with a car is easier and more to the point if that was the goal. It isn't. It is a slow self punishment and at the same time every time he pulls the trigger he feels he is getting his just anger out. He never does of course and that is why they all kill themselves in the end.
It really has nothing to do with the gun or its availability.
Weak people are created more often than they are born weak. We will never solve this problem by outlawing material things. Laws are really just a scapegoat for those in power to gain recognition and then to abuse for their own purpose. Education from a early age is the only real way to solve social issues or any issue. Instillation of philosophy and ethics while giving the student the ability to make his or her own conclusions is the way to create strong people. Ignorance is the real enemy not a gun.
Getting rid of guns as a solution is the act of ignorance or the willful act of agenda.

The public is a mob becuase that's the way we have brought them up to be.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Sure, I was being somewhat facetious with those comments. However, I was looking for examples of numerous people being stabbed (or slashed) to death by a single individual, situations where victims would either have the ability to fight back and/or escape. Being trapped in an airliner where you have to rely on the pilots staying alive is hardly a fair example.

Here's a few from a cursory Google search:

Cup of gasoline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...%C3%A1lez_(arsonist)

Not 30 people, but a guy with a knife terrorizing a school:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamoru_Takuma

Does a guard at a concentration camp count?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Brzica

Poisoning during a robbery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadamichi_Hirasawa

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: Didn't Timothy Mcveigh Use a van to puposefully kill like 160 some people? Oh wait that right it was the explosives inside that did it.

Are you suggesting it wasn't the explosives?

Perhaps he had trouble parallel-parking and he simply jumped the curb.

If anybody wants a good example of how gun ban laws don't work, all you need to do is look at our capital, Washington, D.C.
Guns are practically outlawed there and yet they have a very high gun crime rate. Laws do not deter criminals, only law abiding citizens.

What a horrible thing to come home to read after a day out at doctor's appointments

Prayers sent to the families of the dead and for a speedy recovery of the wounded.

quote Originally posted by DRA: Here in Georgia it's not that hard to buy one, it's just that you can't really carry it on you in public places.

Heres what I found out when I tried to get a new handgun:

1. need to go get FAC for the gun
2. show up at the gunstore and pick out a gun.
3. take the paperwork to the rcmp with what gun I want.
4. wait another few days.
5. go get transport certificate for the gun to the nearest RCMP office.
6 go pick up gun
7. drive straight from the gunstore with the unloaded gun IN A LOCKED GUN BOX WITH A TRIGGER LOCK with no bullets in the vehicle.
8. allow the RCMP to inspect the gun and compare serials which will take another 24-72 hrs.
9. pick up gun and transport certificate to my house.
10. keep gun stored in a locked box at all times with a trigger lock as well.

Yes, I agree as stated that the criminals have had a hand in the law writings..

I used to always have guns around when I was growing up, fired my first 4 10 when I was about 5-6 and nearly took my shoulder off lol. Learned to shoot well on an army rifle (Not sure what kind it was, but the gun unscrewed apart and everything fit into the butt of it. I know it was a .22, silver barrel and trigger area, the barrel screwed off, the trigger assembly pulled apart and everything fit inside the black plastic butt.) Anyone identify what kind it would be?

Did I hear it correctly on the news that Va. Tech is a "Gun Free Zone"?

quote Originally posted by GT86: Here's a few from a cursory Google search: Cup of gasoline http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...%C3%A1lez_(arsonist) Not 30 people, but a guy with a knife terrorizing a school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamoru_Takuma Does a guard at a concentration camp count? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Brzica Poisoning during a robbery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadamichi_Hirasawa

Those were indeed interesting examples, but I'm not 100% sure what your point is. For every example like you've provided, I could supply at least a hundred examples of firearms being used in similar situations.

Just so it's clear, I haven't stated anywhere in this thread that I believe "gun control" (as it's been implemented in Canada) is the solution. My concern is that in situations like today's terrible tragedy, one nutcase with a gun can cause so much horror. I'd like to know how we (as a civilized society) can best prevent this from occurring again. Maybe we can't.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Just so it's clear, I haven't stated anywhere in this thread that I believe "gun control" (as it's been implemented in Canada) is the solution. My concern is that in situations like today's terrible tragedy, one nutcase with a gun can cause so much horror. I'd like to know how we (as a civilized society) can best prevent this from occurring again. Maybe we can't.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think we can. As I've mentioned earlier, the urge for violence is part of us on a very deep level. Society and civilization temper and control those urges, but think of some of the things that briefly pop into you head every day. Obviously we don't act on those impulses, but they are there nonetheless. And sometimes, for any number of reasons, people let their impulses rule them.

Short of locking everyone up for our own safety, there's no way to prevent these types of things from happening. If someone has decided to give in to the chaos that is a part of human nature, there will always be a way for them to destroy.