John, do you take everyone’s word this literally, or do you hold me to some higher standard? Over the last couple of years (at least), I’ve often found myself here in the forum explaining to you what I meant in a post. Perhaps my writing style IS confusing, but let me get one thing absolutely straight before I explain yet another statement of mine - I have never ever tried to CHANGE the meaning of any comment of mine when I’ve been called on the carpet to do so. That’s the honest truth, and I really hope you believe me. If you don’t believe me, then this whole exercise is pointless.
Patrick,
For the most part, unless it includes a smiley or something like [sarcastic][/sarcastic], yes, I take posts extremely literally depending on the writer.
I do believe that if we were talking face to face that your expressions, body language, and other non-verbal forms of communication would change the meaning. Here's the thing, though. You write very well and delibrately, Patrick. Others here do as well. Frontal Lobe, Fierofetish, Blackrams, and many others. When I read posts by them I make the assumption that they've sat down, given some thought to what they want to say, typed it out, re-read it, edited if necessary, all in an effort to actually convey what they are trying to say.
Others here are not that deliberate with their writing and, to be frank, I rarely pay much attention to poorly written posts. Your posts don't fall in the "poorly written" or lead anyone to believe that you haven't thought out what you want to say so in a sense, yes, I do hold you to a higher standard (along with the others I've mentioned as well as many more that I've forgotten to mention).
I'm often guilty of not understanding what has been written and I've had to apologize for that. My conclusions, though, on how the rest of the world views the US are not off the cuff or unfounded. I take a lot of time looking at international news feeds from all over the world. CBC, BBC, Deutsche Welle, etc. I'd like to be able to watch more but since I don't speak that many languages I'm limited to english speaking and making out most of the German broadcasts.
Now I understand when you say the "armed to the teeth" comment that you were exaggerating, but also serious, and it demonstrates my point. I have guns, several of them. I also travel quite a bit. I spend a lot of time in Kansas City and Wichita, quite a bit in Denver, some stays in Chicago, New York, my wife and I made a road trip from home here in KS to Manchester, NH, a few months ago. It might surprise you to learn that in my travels, especially when I leave KS, I'm not armed. To be honest, I don't feel the need to be. Yet you, from what YOU perceive of the US, say that YOU WILL BE because other people are. Interesting perspective, Patrick. Very, very few people here travel armed. Some do, legally or not, but the percentage is very low. If as many people were armed here as is portrayed by the foreign press and, at times, our own, do you think that insane gunman at Virginia Tech would have made it out of the first building alive? Not likely.
That perspective is displayed over and over again in international media (and even our OWN media) that if you come to the states you'd better be "packing a gun".
I don't think that you or the vast majority of the world has it in for the US, but I do think you have a warped view of what society here is like and that is given to you through no fault of your own but through our own media portraying only the bad stuff (blood sells) and through their own agenda, as well as an international agenda of wanting to change the US, but not understanding why the US can't be more like the rest of the world. It's always fascinating that when I watch these foreign newscasts about the US, our political system, our crimes, all of the bad things, that when 95% of the world get here they don't want to leave!! [sarcasm] We must be some kind of awful blight on the world's culture to have that happen. [/sarcasm]
I also don't think you're a "nasty guy" in the least little bit. In fact, although we are ideologically quite different, I learn a great deal from your posts in many cases. In my posts to you in THIS thread, although they probably came on a bit strong, I have a problem not with you, but with how IT APPEARS you view our society here because I don't believe it to be accurate and would like to do what I can to correct those inaccuracies.
John Stricker
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08:00 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 32121 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
It might surprise you to learn that in my travels, especially when I leave KS, I'm not armed.
To be honest John, it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t pack a gun while you’re traveling. I understand that the gun laws down there vary from state to state, and that in itself may be a problem for you depending on where you’re going.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
If as many people were armed here as is portrayed by the foreign press and, at times, our own, do you think that insane gunman at Virginia Tech would have made it out of the first building alive?
Why not, wasn’t he in a “no firearm zone”? <Insert smiley to signify attempt at humour.>
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
I don't think that you or the vast majority of the world has it in for the US, but I do think you have a warped view of what society here is like...
John, I only live half an hour or so from the border, and over the last 30 years I’ve made many trips driving through Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, California, Oregon, and Washington. I mix with the local people when I travel and I get a good idea of what they’re like. I do not base my opinion on American society from what I see on TV.
I find Americans to be much the same as Canadians, except some of them talk funny. <Insert smiley again.> Sure, there are some pompous dickheads in the States, but these type of people are universal and no country has exclusive rights to them.
Becoming a huge military power in the last half of the 20th century has no doubt changed American society to some degree, but that doesn’t mean that the average American is any better or any worse than any other nationality. There may be some Americans who believe otherwise, but they belong in the pompous dickhead category and I’ve already stated my opinion on that subject.
I enjoy conversing in forums such as this John, but I honestly feel it’s YOU who often has the preconceived notions about how real people (not foreign newscasters) view Americans and American society. I’ll try and make an effort in the future to be more clear in my posts, but please just ask me what it is I’m inferring if you have any doubts as to my intent.
Anyway John, thanks for your usual thoughtful post.
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09:58 PM
Apr 19th, 2007
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Coming from you Todd, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
And now I'm going out to walk the dog, and then to watch the Canucks in the playoffs...
Well if you think that is funny, you'll love this one:
Patrick, I don't care that you are a card carrying commie. I really don't. I don't care that Canada has it SOOOOOOO good because of their gun control laws.
America is Grieving right now. A foreigner who was invited to our country to benefit from the education available here showed his gratitude by gunning down more than 50 of our fellow countrymen. Every American here has a right to grieve this national tragedy in their own way. Some people have expressed sadness, others fear, others (like me) frustration, helpnessness and rage. Stricker has been doing a critical analysis which is obviously his way of dealing with the emotional crisis, more power to him. I vent. That is my way of dealing with it.
Regardless of how we have expressed ourselves, most foreigners have been respectful and sympathetic in this thread that is designed to be a catharsis for us Americans. I appreciate non-American wishes of condolences and sympathy and most comments have been this way.....
Except yours! It's not as if foreigners bash America. Oh no, it's so rare to have people from other countries tell us what is wrong with us.
But most of us ignore it as ignorance. What I can't ignore is the fact that your empathy tank is bone dry. The bodies weren't even cold before you had to go off on your Canada Rocks, America Sucks rant. Well Patrick, let me put this in terms that even someone like you can understand..
Is it too much to ask that we be allowed to bury the bodies of our dead children before having to endure you telling us how much we suck?
Ya mind?
Edit: to remove personal remark
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 04-21-2007).]
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05:57 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
THAT was callous and unnecessary. Patrick never said any of the things you accused him of saying. I've always had you rated neutral because even though in political discussions you are a tool of epic magnitude, you've posted a lot of things that have helped people.
Congratulations, Todd, you just earned a negative.
John Stricker
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06:04 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37642 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I have most family outside the US, and I do get much misunderstanding about americans. I am into racing - all kinds. I was talking with a euro race fan. he actually thinks we americans are arrogant, because we dont compete in F1 racing. I had to explain to him we already have 2 main open wheel racing series, plus many smaller open wheel racing series. its not we dont want to play with "you guys" - its we have plenty racing of our own. anyways - everyone thinks "their" way is the right way. but, the actual truth is - if their is money involved - its guaranteed NOT to the right way. and, since EVERYTHING comes backs to money - EVERYONE is wrong. gun control or no gun control - both are irrelavant. the problem is not the guns - its the people using them and the people not using them. this story is one dummy with a gun, and many dummies without a gun. there was mistakes made by all. classic saying about one of the worst evils is a good person doing nothing.
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10:41 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by jstricker: THAT was callous and unnecessary. Patrick never said any of the things you accused him of saying. I've always had you rated neutral because even though in political discussions you are a tool of epic magnitude, you've posted a lot of things that have helped people.
Congratulations, Todd, you just earned a negative.
John Stricker
What the hell are you talking about John?
In the first place, I have no idea where you got that sentence you attribute to me as a quote but I just re-read every single post of mine and I can not find it. Would you be good enough to point it out for me or at least attribute it to the right person.
And as for Patrick, you are clearly not payiong attention. I'll help. Patricks quotes before the bodies were even cold include:
In a discussion with GT86 about America versus Canada gun control: "Was there any kind of enforcement of this zone? I suspect not."
"Fine. I'll be interested in finding out how this gunman slipped through campus security then."
In a discussion regarding the enforcement of laws: "Great, I've seen how well that works with low-lifes (not) paying fares on our mass-transit system here."
Before being editted: "Criminals and nutcases pack guns, law abiding sane citizens don’t. "
To other posters. Apparently Patrick has a lot of people "misinterpreting" his posts, "Ummm.... maybe you need to step back and re-read my post. I was referring to law abiding people in the "no firearm zone" on the campus and up here in Canada."
"You are not reading me correctly at all."
"Yeah, it was all the way “down the text” right after the fourth sentence. Sorry to have taxed your reading skills to such an extent." It was the 4th sentence out of 5. That would be...hmmm, DOWN THE TEXT! Is this REALLY the extend of his debate skills? Dissecting my references?
THIS is what you are defending John? Wake up.
BTW, you DON'T have a negative from me. I am not so thin skinned as to want someone banned because I disagree with their views. In fact I gave you a positive with the comment "great minds think alike". Can't remember when I wrote it but apparently great minds only think alike when they read posts carefully. I hope you are proud of yourself.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 04-20-2007).]
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01:03 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
C'mon Todd, you know better than that. While I am a conservative, and harbor a distrust of the liberal agenda, I am aware that we can't simply slap a partisan label on this.
Nixon has been quoted as saying "Guns are an abomination"
Who signed the '86 FOPA? Reagan. While it did have some benefits for gun owners, it eliminated new autos from being sold. Reagan also signed the Mulford Act in 1967, while governor of CA. In part, it prohibited "the carrying of firearms on one's person or in a vehicle, in any public place or on any public street."
Who signed the '89 import ban? Bush Sr.
Who has said he would sign a new AWB if it made it to his desk? Bush Jr.
How many Republicans currently support the so-called War on Drugs, which is essentially Prohibition 2.0? The fact is, it's much easier politically to support the band-aid, feel good type fixes than it is to address the underlying issue. Especially in our age of the sound bite and uninformed voter. That's true no matter which side of the partisan fence you're on.
Respectfully GT, I can't disagree more. All of your examples are valid and there will always be liberals who respect the 2nd amendment just as their will always be conservatives who are atheists. But they are both in the minority. Personally, I think Richard Nixon's comments were more political than heart felt.
Anyway, I didn't say Republican or Democrat. Let me make that clear. I am not attributing party politics to the issue, just ideology. The liberal ideology has long felt that if you just remove all the guns you remove violence. Which is of course non-sense. The problem is that on the surface it makes a great sound bite. If you tell people often enough that somebody died from "gun" violence then the public begins to attribute the problem to guns and not violence.
If you beleive guns are the problem then the solution is easy. Ban guns. If you believe violence is the problem you have to admit a serious social problem exists and that is NOT easy to deal with. As a culture of people increasingly looking for easy solutions, the trend towards guns restrictions tends to overshadow the real problem and you can blame the liberal media for it. They continue to push the idea that guns are the problem. I heard a news story just the other night on the news about a death in Oakland and they must have said GUN 10 times in that segment....{The GUN death of this boy was another example of GUNS killing our youth. If GUN control laws were more stringent these GUN deaths would not be happening. GUN owners continue to obstruct attempts to keep GUNS out of the hands of our youth...blah blah } The brain washing is terrifying. The word VIOLENCE (the real problem) was not used once!
scary!
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01:21 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37642 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Todd, you aren’t worth my (or John’s) breath to debate with. You purposely lie and quote out of context in your posts hoping to turn the tide of any argument in your favor. Perhaps you feel doing so will help prevent casual readers of a thread from realizing what a total ass you are.
I’ve already fully explained the “Criminals and nutcases...” quote to you in a previous response (which you’ve conveniently ignored), but let’s just take the first thing you’ve mentioned as a perfect example of your attempted deception:
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
In a discussion with GT86 about America versus Canada gun control: "Was there any kind of enforcement of this zone? I suspect not."
This is an absolute complete fabrication of the facts. The only thing you got right was my actual quote. Nothing had been stated in any manner about “America versus Canada gun control”, and GT86 hadn’t even posted in the thread at this time! (Have a good look, it’s at the very beginning of this thread.) Those of us who had posted up to this point were wondering about the merits of a “no firearms zone”. Nothing more, nothing less.
Todd, it’s bad enough that you feel the need to post your endless political drivel in every thread you participate in, but your continuing lies and delusions are only making you appear more pathetic.
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02:57 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by Toddster: Well if you think that is funny, you'll love this one:
Patrick, I don't care that you are a card carrying commie. I really don't. I don't care that Canada has it SOOOOOOO good because of their gun control laws.
America is Grieving right now. A foreigner who was invited to our country to benefit from the education available here showed his gratitude by gunning down more than 50 of our fellow countrymen. Every American here has a right to grieve this national tragedy in their own way. Some people have expressed sadness, others fear, others (like me) frustration, helpnessness and rage. Stricker has been doing a critical analysis which is obviously his way of dealing with the emotional crisis, more power to him. I vent. That is my way of dealing with it.
Regardless of how we have expressed ourselves, most foreigners have been respectful and sympathetic in this thread that is designed to be a catharsis for us Americans. I appreciate non-American wishes of condolences and sympathy and most comments have been this way.....
Except yours! It's not as if foreigners bash America. Oh no, it's so rare to have people from other countries tell us what is wrong with us.
But most of us ignore it as ignorance. What I can't ignore is the fact that your empathy tank is bone dry. The bodies weren't even cold before you had to go off on your Canada Rocks, America Sucks rant. Well Patrick, let me put this in terms that even a nitwit like you can understand..
Is it too much to ask that we be allowed to bury the bodies of our dead children before having to endure you telling us how much we suck?
Ya mind?
OK, I just re-read this thread, and I don't see how Patrick deserves any of this rant
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06:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Todd, you aren’t worth my (or John’s) breath to debate with. You purposely lie and quote out of context in your posts hoping to turn the tide of any argument in your favor. Perhaps you feel doing so will help prevent casual readers of a thread from realizing what a total ass you are.
I’ve already fully explained the “Criminals and nutcases...” quote to you in a previous response (which you’ve conveniently ignored), but let’s just take the first thing you’ve mentioned as a perfect example of your attempted deception:
This is an absolute complete fabrication of the facts. The only thing you got right was my actual quote. Nothing had been stated in any manner about “America versus Canada gun control”, and GT86 hadn’t even posted in the thread at this time! (Have a good look, it’s at the very beginning of this thread.) Those of us who had posted up to this point were wondering about the merits of a “no firearms zone”. Nothing more, nothing less.
Todd, it’s bad enough that you feel the need to post your endless political drivel in every thread you participate in, but your continuing lies and delusions are only making you appear more pathetic.
Debate? Is that what you call it?
I've been the civil one here Patrick. Let's review your debating style, shall we?
quote
Todd, you really are a prick.
Ah yes, I see your point but if I may offer a different view...
quote
"Sorry to have taxed your reading skills to such an extent. Here, I'll make it easy for you to read again:"
Thank you. I appreciate the consideration with which you speak down to my level. I'll try to be more attentive.
quote
You purposely lie
Yeah? Really? So I say one thing, you say it's a lie. Hmmm. Great debate technique. I guess that ends the discussion. Just out of curiosity where is the lie? Show me the quote if it is not too much to ask. If I made an ERROR I will happily retract it but I can't find any errors. You see, a lie is knewing one thing to be true and deliberately misrepresented it. So show me where I knew one thing and misrepresented it. YOU CAN'T!
quote
I’ve already fully explained the “Criminals and nutcases...” quote
Yes, you did, AFTER my original post!!!! And I wasn't the only one who was offended by your nonsensical comment or you wouldn't have had to explain it .....now would you? These are your own words, "EDIT: I added a couple of notations for clarification purposes as numerous people were misinterpreting what I had stated." A lie? A twisted misrepresentation? Am I an ASS or a PRICK for being one of the "numerous people"? What about the OTHER "numerous people"? Are they PRICKS too?
quote
what a total ass you are
I really musta missed that day in debate class where calling the other guy an ASS was considered effective protocol.
And All of THIS is the CLEANED-UP VERSION! --->
quote
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-17-2007).]
Patrick. You started this rant with ignorant and insensative comments (edited though they may be at this point) and frankly, your tone has gone down hill, not up.
GT86, I'm not trying to silence the opposition. Quite the opposite. I think the more they talk the less seriously people take them. However, I am rather surprised that you endorse Patricks personal attacks as undeserving of my request for him to let us heal, hardly a rant. Remember, his posts have been editted.
Stricker, I just don't even know what to say to your comments beyond what I have said. But if you find it OK to call people PRICKS, etc. then I have misjudged you.
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08:56 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37642 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
You continue to harp on how I’ve “editted” my post, how it’s now “CLEANED-UP”. I’m so glad that Pyrthian quoted me prior to my edit at 04-17-2007 02:01 PMon page one of the thread so that anyone who’s interested can see what I originally posted and that nothing was deleted. I suppose you’re now going to accuse Pyrthian of editing or cleaning up the post.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
I am rather surprised that you endorse Patricks personal attacks as undeserving of my request for him to let us heal...
Oh please, I almost lost my dinner reading that.
Todd, anything I’ve called you is mild compared to what you really are.
For years you’ve been taunting me here at this forum with BS about what I’ve said or implied about the US and I’m fed up with it. You are so freakin’ insecure that you desperately try to make yourself look like some sort of a “patriot” hero whenever some “foreigner” dares to speak up in this international forum. Well guess what, more people are starting to see through this charade. Anybody who actually takes the time to read this thread would see that you’re just making a fuss about nothing.
It’s so ironic that earlier in this thread it was stated:
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
Actually, for such a divisive topic (gun control), I'm pleasantly surprised that this thread (and the other one regarding the shooting) haven't spiraled down into the trash.
I then joked that something was wrong. Yes, there was something wrong - You hadn’t made your appearance yet.
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09:44 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
In the first place, I don't need your help in reading comprehension.
In the second place, if you're so dense as not to realize where that line came from then that would explain a lot.
Finally, I don't rate people on whether or not I agree with their POV, I rate them on the respect they show others and how they make their point. If they can argue logically without personal attacks, regardless of which side of the issue they are on, then perhaps we'll all learn something. Even you. If they, like you, must belittle and insult with every other line, then they will get a negative rating from me.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
What the hell are you talking about John?
In the first place, I have no idea where you got that sentence you attribute to me as a quote but I just re-read every single post of mine and I can not find it. Would you be good enough to point it out for me or at least attribute it to the right person.
And as for Patrick, you are clearly not payiong attention. I'll help. Patricks quotes before the bodies were even cold include:
In a discussion with GT86 about America versus Canada gun control: "Was there any kind of enforcement of this zone? I suspect not."
"Fine. I'll be interested in finding out how this gunman slipped through campus security then."
In a discussion regarding the enforcement of laws: "Great, I've seen how well that works with low-lifes (not) paying fares on our mass-transit system here."
Before being editted: "Criminals and nutcases pack guns, law abiding sane citizens don’t. "
To other posters. Apparently Patrick has a lot of people "misinterpreting" his posts, "Ummm.... maybe you need to step back and re-read my post. I was referring to law abiding people in the "no firearm zone" on the campus and up here in Canada."
"You are not reading me correctly at all."
"Yeah, it was all the way “down the text” right after the fourth sentence. Sorry to have taxed your reading skills to such an extent." It was the 4th sentence out of 5. That would be...hmmm, DOWN THE TEXT! Is this REALLY the extend of his debate skills? Dissecting my references?
THIS is what you are defending John? Wake up.
BTW, you DON'T have a negative from me. I am not so thin skinned as to want someone banned because I disagree with their views. In fact I gave you a positive with the comment "great minds think alike". Can't remember when I wrote it but apparently great minds only think alike when they read posts carefully. I hope you are proud of yourself.
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01:30 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
GT86, I'm not trying to silence the opposition. Quite the opposite. I think the more they talk the less seriously people take them. However, I am rather surprised that you endorse Patricks personal attacks as undeserving of my request for him to let us heal, hardly a rant. Remember, his posts have been editted.
First off, I read Patrick's posts before they were edited, since I was posting in this thread when he was. I read them in more or less "real time", and I don't feel that he changed what he was saying. Adding clarification does not in my mind constitute changing the message of a post, especially when the original words are left there. Yes, I did misunderstand one of his posts, which I indicated after I read the clarification. However, I'm not going to hold a post against someone simply because they weren't clear or I misunderstood what they were saying.
Second, I didn't realize that this was, in your words, a "thread that is designed to be a catharsis for us Americans." Perhaps threads like this are part of a healing process. But this thread is not and was not a memorial thread, --it was a discussion thread about so-called gun free zones. I don't agree with some of Patrick's viewpoints, but I have enjoyed discussing the issue with him in this thread, as well as the other one about the shooting. I don't know about the history you and he seem to have, since I don't spend a great deal of time in Off Topic these days, but he's been nothing but civil and polite to me.
Third, I don't endorse personal attacks. However, I do want to point out that this was a polite discussion until you posted. I'm not blaming you in particular, but I think it's more than a coincidence that the thread started going downhill at a certain point.
And finally, if you're going to complain about personal attacks, perhaps you should review your own posts. All of the following are from this thread.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: Speak like an adult and you'll be treated like one.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: Somebody call animal control. 84IQ is off his leash again.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: Patrick, I don't care that you are a card carrying commie.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: Well Patrick, let me put this in terms that even a nitwit like you can understand
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-21-2007).]
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02:04 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
GT86, I don't see your point. I don't see any profanity in any one of those references nor do I see anything akin to a personal attack save the remark about 84Bill which I think we can all agree is warranted given the unwarranted statement he made to me, and teh nitwit remark which came AFTER the personal attacks of Patrick. But fine, I'll delete the word and I apologize to you, Patrick, and the rest of the forum for using it. It was a childish remark and I won't do it again. The "speak like an adult" comment is not a personal attack it is advise! To wit, have you called me a PRICK or an ASS. You obviously have a different view point on this subject and yet I have had this little disagreement with you in a respectful manner. If you break out personal attacks I will get on your case too. So I ask again, do you condone Patrick's self described style of "debate"? Or at the very least how about two wrongs don't make a right?
Let me say this again in case I am not making it clear, different people greive in different ways. I don't judge how others deal with a national catastrophe. I remember after the Challenger explosion, Columbine, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Columbia, and now this that people reacted with every emotion from outright public crying to punching holes in the wall. I JUDGED THEM NOT! I respect other people's right to feel what ever the heck they feel. So why am I not afforded the same courtesy?
I felt rage and frustration for the first couple days of this tragedy and the LAST thing I wanted after having my countrymen gunned down by a foreigner was to hear a foreigner tell me what's wrong with America. Do you invalidate that feeling? Is there something wrong with me for feeling that way? Please, feel free to judge ME.
I see a lot of nit picking over my choice of words but I have not heard ONE word from any of you about the SUBJECT of this arguement. More than that, I see you actively condoning profanity and hate speak, not in a generic use, but directed at another forum member specifically (which BTW, is a PFF rule violation).......not a word on that eh?
Maybe it's the southern gentleman in me or my Italian heritage but I have respect for people's right to grieve. I would never walk into a cemetary and up to a funeral service and start cracking wise like Shecky Greene in a Frog suit....{Hey, great funeral, where's the open bar? Hey, maybe if the broad managed to put down the ding dongs she might not have had a coronary. boom tish} Well excuse me for being offended by Patricks poor taste and poorly timed comments. And ALLLLLLLLL I did was ask Patrick to lay off for a couple of days until people had time to digest the tragedy and come to terms with it. I quote "Is it too much to ask that we be allowed to bury the bodies of our dead children before having to endure you telling us how much we suck? Ya mind?"
Well?
I'm listening. Tell me where I am going wrong here.
As for you John, I honestly have no idea where this hatred is coming from but I have never been anything but respectful of you. You go off on me without citing one example of my error or why you are so filed with hate as to give me a negative and accuse me a lecturing you. I asked where the quote came from. I ask again. If you put it in a quote box it damn well better be a quote. At this point I would be grateful if you'ld stay out of it.
I support the right to keep and bear arms I know that may shock some of the neo-conned here
BUT I doNOT like CCP or handguns in general and think military style fullauto long guns are more in the spirit of the 2nd A and it's people militias ideals a pistol is not much use in a firefight againts an army and a hunting rifle less so then a so call assault rifle
so would you gun nuts give up hand guns for the right to have full automatic long guns??
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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12:40 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
I support the right to keep and bear arms I know that may shock some of the neo-conned here
BUT I doNOT like CCP or handguns in general and think military style fullauto long guns are more in the spirit of the 2nd A and it's people militias ideals a pistol is not much use in a firefight againts an army and a hunting rifle less so then a so call assault rifle
so would you gun nuts give up hand guns for the right to have full automatic long guns??
Not quite.. but I'd settle on a 16A2 or M4 with 3 round burst.. full auto just wastes ammo. "Pray and Spray" is for terrorists and idiots.
BTW Ray. that sidearm/pistol you're referring to might not mean much against an Army, but ask a grunt on a crew serve if he dosent want one. CCW's / Pistols, I'll even throw in the evil term.. Semi Automatic Hand Guns!!!! dun dun duh!!! Are your last line of defense. Ask cops why they carry a leg iron sometime.. better yet take a poll of how of the ones who don't vs who do. Personally, yes.. I'd prefer to drop you at 300+yrds, but if I'm taking a class on engineering at a desk I don't think that's an option when ("I've had a bad hair day") goes nuts.
If we want to go political.. listen to what he rants about in his video.. gee sound like he got a full load of liberal BS and decided to lash out against the "Military Industrial Machine" and a girl who wouldn't go out with him.
Again.. this isn't a "gun" "weapon" issue.. it should be addressed as an issue of our culture. Look at the 50s-70's.. gang beat each other with pipes, chains, whatever but was in the spirit of "beat him down".. not kill him. Our society through various veins has almost glamorized "capping" someone who disrespects you. (I won't delve deeper.. got enough hate mail last time I called ppl out)
Guns are easy.. they look "nasty".. but compared to cars.. don't even hold a candle. What about children drowned in tubs?
Think outlawing "guns" will solve all the problems.. ask Europe, as much as they'd like to hide their little problem. Look back to last year when they were all but burning down Paris and other Euro "gun free zones"
Nothing against Yellowstone.. but I have friends in Cologne and London.. it's no different than a major metro here in the US.. you don't go to certain places unless you "belong".. ya they might not use guns, but the will club, stab etc you.
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02:34 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.
Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html
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02:48 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37642 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I felt rage and frustration for the first couple days of this tragedy and the LAST thing I wanted after having my countrymen gunned down by a foreigner was to hear a foreigner tell me what's wrong with America. Do you invalidate that feeling? Is there something wrong with me for feeling that way? Please, feel free to judge ME.
So who are the “foreigners” you are referring to, Todd?
Are you referring to the shooter at Virginia Tech? From ABC News - “Cho came to the United States with his family in 1992 at age 8 and first settled in Detroit.” So you refer to a 23 year old who’s grown up and lived in the States for the last 15 years as a “foreigner”? Fine.
And who is the “foreigner” who told you “what's wrong with America”?
Did it occur in this thread? I must have missed that post. Care to supply a quote?
I also take exception to your statement about “my countrymen” being gunned down, as if it was only Americans who were killed and therefore only Americans who need to grieve. Perhaps it might interest you learn that one of the instructors murdered was a Canadian, yes a Canadian. Have a look at this Local newspaper story. And see the part about the instructor’s daughter? Notice the university she’s attending? The University of British Columbia right here in Vancouver. The campus is five minutes from my girlfriend’s place.
You see Todd, this is a small planet and often events which occur in “your” backyard affect those of us who don’t ourselves live in the US. The terrible tragedy which occurred at Virginia Tech has affected and saddened people across this entire continent, if not around the world
I don’t feel proud of the fact that your constant baiting of myself and others over the years has led me to use less than complementary language in response to your posts. Yes, I directed words your way that I instruct my girlfriend’s kids not to use, but as I stated in a previous post, anything I’ve called you here is mild compared to what you really are.
You constantly try to divide this forum based on geographical location and/or political beliefs. You constantly try and turn every thread you pollute into an "us" verses "them" debacle. I find you to be nothing more than a disruptive, corrosive element here.
I apologize to other forum members who may have been offended by my less than perfect conduct, but I have no such apology to offer you, Todd.
I support the right to keep and bear arms I know that may shock some of the neo-conned here
BUT I doNOT like CCP or handguns in general and think military style fullauto long guns are more in the spirit of the 2nd A and it's people militias ideals a pistol is not much use in a firefight againts an army and a hunting rifle less so then a so call assault rifle
so would you gun nuts give up hand guns for the right to have full automatic long guns??
Only if I'm allowed to keep one strapped to me in public like my handgun.
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03:49 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
so would you gun nuts give up hand guns for the right to have full automatic long guns??
Full auto is legal depending on your state. They are highly regulated, and have been since 1934, but they are not forbidden on the federal level. Assuming you live in a state that permits them, you need to submit fingerprints and the required paperwork to the ATF, and pay a $200 tax. Once ATF approves your forms, they will send you a tax stamp, and at that point, the machine gun you are buying can be transferred to you. You have to go through this process for each MG you purchase, and these rules also apply to silencers, short barreled rifles, and short barreled shotguns.
What's the catch? In 1986, Congress passed a law that said in part that no new full autos could be added to the registry, unless you are licensed as a manufacturer. Only law enforcement, military, or licensed dealers/manufacturers may possess post-1986 machine guns. What this means is that the supply of transferable guns (meaning able to be owned by civilians) was fixed in 1986. As a result, prices on legal full autos have skyrocketed. For example, a transferable M16 now runs about $15,000, because of limited supply and large demand. Its semi-auto counterpart, the AR15, runs around $900 brand new.
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-21-2007).]
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05:32 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
I see a lot of nit picking over my choice of words but I have not heard ONE word from any of you about the SUBJECT of this arguement. More than that, I see you actively condoning profanity and hate speak, not in a generic use, but directed at another forum member specifically (which BTW, is a PFF rule violation).......not a word on that eh?
Todd, I was attempting to compose a reply to your post, but I kept getting stuck at the above quote. The outright hypocrisy and victimization complex displayed astounds me, to be completely honest. You use the very tactics you are complaining about against others, but then cry foul when your use of those tactics is questioned.
You said you didn't see my point. Let me try to clarify it for you. We can debate issues here without polarizing everyone. We can debate without becoming partisan hacks. We can debate without the name calling. We can debate with those who disagree without alienating them. We can debate the issues without allowing our personalities to become the issue.
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07:26 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Todd, I was attempting to compose a reply to your post, but I kept getting stuck at the above quote. The outright hypocrisy and victimization complex displayed astounds me, to be completely honest. You use the very tactics you are complaining about against others, but then cry foul when your use of those tactics is questioned.
You said you didn't see my point. Let me try to clarify it for you. We can debate issues here without polarizing everyone. We can debate without becoming partisan hacks. We can debate without the name calling. We can debate with those who disagree without alienating them. We can debate the issues without allowing our personalities to become the issue.
Oh give me a break GT86. Victim? ME? I'd be happy to duke it out with Patrick all day long but YOU jumped into a fight you were not a part of which forces me to respond. That is all I am doing. And you confuse tactics with tone. I will HAPPILY admit that I enjoy manipulating people's words against them. I use denegrating language to emphasize sarchasm since this is a thread and you can't see or hear my real expressions. That is an honest debate tactic. Patrick calls people Pricks. Forgive me if I don't understand your comparison of the two.
I agree with you on the second paragraph completely. So let's review it item by item: Who brought 'personalities' into it? ME? NO. Patrick made it personal. Debate without 'alienating', you and I are debating without alienation. I don't take your comments personally and I hope you don't take mine that way. No name calling. I agree 100%. I apologized for the one minor slip I made in this regard. Where is Patrick's Aplogy? See quotes below. Debate without polarizing. That is a tough one. Polarization is relative. If two "debators" start on polar opposite sides then it's hard not to remain there. I agree with all of your comments and if you look over my posts you will see that I have kept to your own standards...to an extent. And that extent is the sincerity of the debator! Are you seriously saying that Patrick was trying to debate me? I ain't seeing it. Are you saying that telling me I "pollute every thread I visit" calling me names, etc. is "debate"? Who broke your debate rules? ME or him? It takes two to make a fight. Re-read the posts and you will discover who threw the first punch and it wasn't me. When I get punched, I punch back! He called gun owners insane the VERY day 32 innocent people got slaughtered. He then got flack from EVERYBODY about it, not just me. he "clarified" (as he calls it) his commment but did not remove it. Left hook on the way!
Look at his last post. Is he even remotely acknowleding my point about people's sensitivity at this time? NO. He is engaging in a hair splitting exercise over the murderer's nationality. The day of the shooting ALL the news outlets were calling hima "Korean National". We have SINCE gotten clarification on that but no one knew at the time that he had been living here for years. I mean REALLY....how pathetic is that? But wait, that's not enough. He had to add these little gems:
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anything I’ve called you here is mild compared to what you really are.
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You constantly try and turn every thread you pollute ....
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I have no such apology to offer you, Todd.
Help me out here GT86...where is this debate you are talking about?
It doesn't exist. You are defending a little kid who is throwing a tantrum because someone had the nerve to ask him to be quite while the Reverend was reading the names of the murder victims. In his embarrassment over this uh-oh realization of his bad manners he decided to project the problem onto me instead of his own ill timed and inappropriate remarks. He could have been mature about it and said, you know what, maybe my timing is off. It doesn't change the way I feel but I can see how my comments might offend some people who aren't interested in a debate about this right now. Or he could have said NOTHING. But NOoooooo, I'm a Prick, Ass, Thread Polluter, blah blah blah. In other words, he chose to behave childishly.
I really don't care what Patrick thinks about gun free zones...or anything else for that matter. And if he had made these remarks at ANY OTHER time and in any other thread I would have been happy to do a basic eyeroll post explaining how much growing-up he still has to do. But I go back to my Shecky Greene example. There is a RIGHT time and RIGHT place for everything.
I've chosen the high road. I apologized for the nitwit comment. But I really can't see what else I said that can even remotely be called hypocritical. My message is the same now as it was in post number 1. Where have I deviated?
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08:50 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37642 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
He called gun owners insane the VERY day 32 innocent people got slaughtered.
Todd, how long did it take for you to be convinced that the Earth is round? Or are you still insisting it’s flat?
When I first met my girlfriend six years ago, her three year old daughter used to think that if she said something often enough it made it so. However, she’s grown up and now no longer believes in such silliness.
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09:08 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Todd, how long did it take for you to be convinced that the Earth is round? Or are you still insisting it’s flat?
When I first met my girlfriend six years ago, her three year old daughter used to think that if she said something often enough it made it so. However, she’s grown up and now no longer believes in such silliness.
So what's YOUR excuse?
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09:54 PM
PFF
System Bot
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Todd, since you choose to use (in your words) denigrating language and sarcasm, don’t you realize that people will likely respond in kind? Do you feel it’s OK for you to be denigrating and sarcastic, but not everyone else? Your style seems to be to get people stirred up, then get aggressive when they respond negatively, and then finally when the thread snowballs into a disaster, you sit there and proclaim your innocence, all the while pointing your finger at anyone who disagreed with you. This is your idea of an honest debate tactic?
Your message (and for the record I agree with many of your political views) gets lost under your presentation, which only serves to damage the message and the messenger.
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-22-2007).]
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10:11 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Thanks once again Toddster. John Striker and I disagree about 75% of the time when the topic is political, but he has the intelligence and class to refrain from childish name calling. We respect each other. You don't respect anyone but yourself. Once again, your ideological rants and childish behavior has ruined an interesting discussion. This thread belongs in the trash, thanks to you. If you were HALF the man you claim to be, your behavior wouldnt be so disgraceful. I could fill a page with your childish insults, but there are still a few decent people here who don't need to be subjected to your garbage. [Even though the number and frequency of posts is decreasing] If you're new here and wonder what I'm talking about, just search the archives for Toddsters posts in T/OT.
Why you haven't been banned yet is a mystery to me.
------------------ ..articulate and bright and clean, and a nice looking guy.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-22-2007).]
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11:24 PM
Apr 22nd, 2007
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Just to get this thread back on topic. How about this.
This is someone who if she had not been armed would have been ripped off again and not a cop in sight.
We as Americans pride ourselves on being able to protect ourselves, and our family and property.
Armed Miss America 1944 Stops Intruder
Email this Story
Apr 21, 5:00 AM (ET)
 (AP) Venus Ramey is shown with her dogs Tuesday, April 17, 2007, near her property in Waynesburg, Ky.... Full Image
p {margin:12px 0px 0px 0px;} WAYNESBURG, Ky. (AP) - Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder. Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment. Ramey said the man told her he would leave. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said. She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun.
Todd, since you choose to use (in your words) denigrating language and sarcasm, don’t you realize that people will likely respond in kind? Do you feel it’s OK for you to be denigrating and sarcastic, but not everyone else? Your style seems to be to get people stirred up, then get aggressive when they respond negatively, and then finally when the thread snowballs into a disaster, you sit there and proclaim your innocence, all the while pointing your finger at anyone who disagreed with you. This is your idea of an honest debate tactic?
I'm only sarchastic with certain people. Look at Stricker for example. He's been up my ass like an enima on this thread but I haven't lashed out at him. He may be wrong on this issue but he actually has a brain and he is of value to the forum. So I respect his right to his opinion, although I am disappointed in his over-reaction. I am hardly "pointing a finger" at him, or you.You and I share SOME political views but we disagree on some issues. But you present your arguements in a thoughtful manner. I respect the fact that you disagree with me here and I appreciate your candor and advise. But you come from a false premise. You talk about "debates" and "strring people up". Perhaps I DO want to stir things up once in a while. Some people on here add NO value at all. They just take up space. They have never had a decent Build Thread, they never contribute to the Tech section with new ideas or help, and most of their time is spent in OT pissing on other people. And even THESE people I can tolerate if their pissing is at least intelligent and not laced with personal attacks or bigotry. There are only certain people I give negatives to; Personal Attackers, and Bigots. That's it. I don't proclaim innocence either. I'm not sure where that comes from. I stand by my comments. There is a big difference. Innocent of what? What crime have I committed? I stand by every word I have posted in this thread on a substance level. If you don't like the tone of the delivery then try to remember the audience. I was mad and I was expressing that to an insensitive remark. I've apologized plenty of times on this forum if I actually misread someone's comments. I remember one exchange recently where I misinterpreted a thrid party remark that I thought was a first person racist comment and got in the posters face. When he pointed out my error I backed away in a heartbeat. I'm still waiting for someone to show me where I misinterpreted anything here. Patricks comments were insensitive to me and obviously to several other posters who called him out on them. I haven't had a tiff with Patrick in over a year. For the most part he has cleaned-up his act. But when he get's off base I rein him back in.
I understand your point about being devisive and to the extent that people will respect MY views I'm happy to respect theirs. Well? Would you call Patrick's comments in this thread respectful to me? Don't you think after being called the names he called me I have a right to put him in his place? I do.
Like it or not I actually provide a valuable service here. Euterpe is no where to be seen. Why? Because her personal attacks got out of control and I started a one man war to get rid of her. It cost me a few negatives from her cronies but she's gone. Ed'sB52/I'm Back? gone. Shaun Hammett? Gone. Stillwell? Gone...well, back again but give me time. My tactics may be offensive to some but they get results and the forum is a better place without these people. A lot of people won't admit it publicly but privately I get lot's of thanks. Now you may have a point if you question who I am to judge other's this way. I can't deny that I use my own standards (in conjunction with the PFF rules). That may or may not be fair. But I can live with my conscience. Just as your neighborhood needs garbage men and oceans need sharks, forums need men willing to clean house to preserve order and the freedoms of other posters. Cliff can't do it all. He needs to be seen to be impartial. And the longevity of this forum when SOOOOOO many others have failed is due in part to people like me who are not afraid to tell a trouble maker to get lost and stay on their asses like a pit bull until they clean up their act or leave. Think about it GT86, who are the people I've had my biggest fights with? People who got banned!
quote
Your message (and for the record I agree with many of your political views) gets lost under your presentation, which only serves to damage the message and the messenger.
If I am in a debate then I agree 100%. And I try to keep my "debate" style more respectful. I don't always succed but then again I don't "debate" with everyone. With some it's a fight; and this is no debate. It's a fight. Patrick started it, I'm gonna end it. And agree with more or not, my fight record here is worth betting on. Maybe you should ask yourself why.
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01:39 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Let us grieve... good grief is about it. Go hang out with your buddy Phelps (that's an example of a Toddster Tactic BTW... look Ma, no cussing!). Now I can expect the "Following me around blah blah blah" response.
This thread is about how Gun Free Zones are a feel good measure that leaves those in them as guaranteed unarmed victims for those that would commit acts such as what just happened.
I want to see a shift in regulations with ALL states having concealed weapons permits, ALL adult citizens, and a large number of those non citizens here legally, even divorced ones and ex-felons that haven't committed violent crimes have the right to carry. Where you can carry pretty much anywhere as a legal citizen. We had a shooting back about a year ago at the local mall, one armed citizen found himself in that very position of having to make the choice of taking down the perp and didn't... but he had the CHOICE, the rest of the people being mowed down in these "Gun Free Zones" are just virtually helpless victims because they've been trained an setup that way.
NY... nutcase that shot up the train and fallout was the banning of a specific bullet by name. In a city where it's damned near impossible to legally own a firearm if you aren't rich or mafia. Good thing for most of those involved New Yorkers don't take to kindly to being shot up and the gunman was in a very confined space so they took him down when he was trying to reload.
Ban the guns? Wouldn't help... to many guns in the world. Ban the bullets... might help a bit over the course of years as gunpowder tends to degrade over time and you'd probably find it's harder to obtain good ammo than weapons to fire it out of over a decade or more. Lousy answer also, involves even more draconian measures to obtain any chance of working and the measures already in place such as being gun free zones just make the problem worse creating more criminals out of those with no intent of doing anything bad and more victims for those that do have bad intentions. When I went to the U of A (Arizona) a quarter century ago, I used the firing range that was under the basketball courts as part of a class and with the members of the rifle team. We carried weapons around campus, rifles and pistols and lots of ammo. I usually had a blade on me that today is outlawed in a lot of municipalities. I don't know if the rifle range still exists at the U of A, but I do know that on that campus there were a significant number of people with ready access to significant weaponry and if they got caught up in a situation similar to what just happened in VA the gunman wouldn't have had quite the same free reign of terror before someone took him down.
I don't feel any safer in a Gun Free Zone. To me it just means the sheep are defenseless. I'd much rather see citizens able to ensure their own safety and the safety of others as the needs arise. Those that choose not to carry are free to do so, those that do carry have added responsibilities and it's a shame we attempt to strip them rather than ensure they are carrying responsibly.
