quote Originally posted by Toddster: Like it or not I actually provide a valuable service here. Euterpe is no where to be seen. Why? Because her personal attacks got out of control and I started a one man war to get rid of her. It cost me a few negatives from her cronies but she's gone.

Last word from me... You take credit for everything don't you? She doesn't post for a while and your the reason? She isn't banned, what did you do to get rid of her, take her keyboard or bury her out in the swamp?

It's the people and their attitude to violence and not the guns. Franky, that's way scarier than if just the guns were the problem. But more guns = more problems. I don't want to live in a society that is tolerant of violence and allows gun ownership.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Your fight record... that explains a lot. LOL Bereavement post... LOL Let us grieve... good grief is about it. Go hang out with your buddy Phelps (that's an example of a Toddster Tactic BTW... look Ma, no cussing!). Now I can expect the "Following me around blah blah blah" response. This thread is about how Gun Free Zones are a feel good measure that leaves those in them as guaranteed unarmed victims for those that would commit acts such as what just happened. I want to see a shift in regulations with ALL states having concealed weapons permits, ALL adult citizens, and a large number of those non citizens here legally, even divorced ones and ex-felons that haven't committed violent crimes have the right to carry. Where you can carry pretty much anywhere as a legal citizen. We had a shooting back about a year ago at the local mall, one armed citizen found himself in that very position of having to make the choice of taking down the perp and didn't... but he had the CHOICE, the rest of the people being mowed down in these "Gun Free Zones" are just virtually helpless victims because they've been trained an setup that way. NY... nutcase that shot up the train and fallout was the banning of a specific bullet by name. In a city where it's damned near impossible to legally own a firearm if you aren't rich or mafia. Good thing for most of those involved New Yorkers don't take to kindly to being shot up and the gunman was in a very confined space so they took him down when he was trying to reload. Ban the guns? Wouldn't help... to many guns in the world. Ban the bullets... might help a bit over the course of years as gunpowder tends to degrade over time and you'd probably find it's harder to obtain good ammo than weapons to fire it out of over a decade or more. Lousy answer also, involves even more draconian measures to obtain any chance of working and the measures already in place such as being gun free zones just make the problem worse creating more criminals out of those with no intent of doing anything bad and more victims for those that do have bad intentions. When I went to the U of A (Arizona) a quarter century ago, I used the firing range that was under the basketball courts as part of a class and with the members of the rifle team. We carried weapons around campus, rifles and pistols and lots of ammo. I usually had a blade on me that today is outlawed in a lot of municipalities. I don't know if the rifle range still exists at the U of A, but I do know that on that campus there were a significant number of people with ready access to significant weaponry and if they got caught up in a situation similar to what just happened in VA the gunman wouldn't have had quite the same free reign of terror before someone took him down. I don't feel any safer in a Gun Free Zone. To me it just means the sheep are defenseless. I'd much rather see citizens able to ensure their own safety and the safety of others as the needs arise. Those that choose not to carry are free to do so, those that do carry have added responsibilities and it's a shame we attempt to strip them rather than ensure they are carrying responsibly.

Ah, I was wondering when you'ld show-up Scott. The usual suspects are now all accounted for. Just out of curiosity, do you Patrick, Neptune, rayb, and 84Bill have club jackets?

Toddster, between you and Patrick I can’t decide who is the more worthless.

So in holding with MY freedom here on the forum,

You both get a negative.

For wasting more time calling each other names and not keeping to the subject at hand.


PS

Toddster, go ahead, try and Ban me, I dare you. I really don’t care, spring is here on the farm and I need to get some work done anyway.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: This thread is about how Gun Free Zones are a feel good measure that leaves those in them as guaranteed unarmed victims for those that would commit acts such as what just happened. I don't feel any safer in a Gun Free Zone. To me it just means the sheep are defenseless. I'd much rather see citizens able to ensure their own safety and the safety of others as the needs arise.

That was exactly the point I was making way back on page one in reference to Canada in general and to the Virginia Tech “no firearm zone” in the States. In THESE areas, “Criminals and nutcases pack guns, law abiding sane citizens don’t.”

Honestly, I have no idea why certain people in this thread continue to try and twist my words even after I’ve made every attempt to clarify the issue.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Ah, I was wondering when you'ld show-up Scott. The usual suspects are now all accounted for. Just out of curiosity, do you Patrick, Neptune, rayb, and 84Bill have club jackets?

Thanks for fulfilling expectations.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: It's the people and their attitude to violence and not the guns. Franky, that's way scarier than if just the guns were the problem. But more guns = more problems. I don't want to live in a society that is tolerant of violence and allows gun ownership.

Well said.

I'd like to say we, as a society, aren't tolerant of violence, but your statement clearly shows that's not how it appears from the outside.

Sadly, what our country is really good for is knee-jerk over reaction. Zero-tolerance policies that leave no room for circumstances or common sense. These same people will scream something must be done, and indeed a lot will be done. Rule will be made, policies enacted under the guise of making people safer.

The end result will be some kid with a G.I. Joe doll in an airport has the doll's 1cm long toy gun confiscated because it's a "replica weapon."

An honor society high school student will be expelled from school and forbidden to return because he forgot he had his pocket knife with him when he went to school.

The outcry for a ban on "assault" weapons may return to protect us from the danger of having more than 10 rounds per magazine - as if having to reload once more would have had any impact on this particular case.

And a number of other individual freedoms will be jeopardized, and innocent people will be harassed for silly, stupid violations of "zero-tolerance" policies. Some will have their lives ruined, not for doing something dangerous, but for violating a stupid policy in a completely harmless manner, like trying to take shampoo onto an airplane or a pocket knife into high school wood shop.

The powers that be will claim it's not their fault, since the policy doesn't allow for any interpretation. And nobody will realize they aren't any safer until the next crazed person decides to kill a bunch of people. Perhaps with pistols, or a rifle. Maybe a car bomb. A truckload of fuel oil and fertilizer can level an entire office building, as Oklahoma City taught us.

And after the next tragedy, the finger pointing and blaming will begin anew.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: It's the people and their attitude to violence and not the guns. Franky, that's way scarier than if just the guns were the problem. But more guns = more problems. I don't want to live in a society that is tolerant of violence and allows gun ownership.

You've highlighted the key fallacy with gun control--it's the people, not the gun. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have violence. But as long as people exist, so will violence. Sad, scary, depressing--but true. I don't want to live in a society that won't permit me tools to defend myself.

And from another angle, human history shows that people who are forbidden by their government to own weapons generally end up as slaves of those in power, or they end up dead.

quote Euterpe is no where to be seen. Why? Because her personal attacks got out of control and I started a one man war to get rid of her. It cost me a few negatives from her cronies but she's gone. Ed'sB52/I'm Back? gone. Shaun Hammett? Gone. Stillwell? Gone...well, back again but give me time. My tactics may be offensive to some but they get results and the forum is a better place without these people.

actually, the reason i no longer post here is because toddster is a rabid little martinet, whose dominance over the culture of this forum - and particularly his jackboot-in-the-face policing of its boundaries (founded always on lies, it seems) - makes this a much worse place for marginal characters like myself.

i still lurk from time to time, mostly out of a kind of anthropological curiosity... internet forums like these are fantastic lenses into fractions of society with which i would otherwise have no contact and little knowledge at all, since i don't spend any time in real life hanging out in places dominated by thugs and their enablers.

it's always useful to keep tabs on the lunatic fringe, though.

just though i'd correct the record, since the prom queen seems to be primping his ugly little ego again.

cheers, y'all.

edit: i wanted to add the observation that, since todd's little "victory" (i'm sure he'll claim it as such, so i'm not going to bother setting up yet another straw wall for him to burn down), i've noticed that he's become even more clenched and weird. from one perspective it might be reinvigorated hubris... but it strikes me as being much more defensive and snarling, like a mean dog who misplaced his fake teeth.

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 04-23-2007).]

Current Iraq shows just how powerful a armed public is. A small state - unable to be controlled by a super power foreign occupier. Them are some powerful citizens. oh, thats right - these things dont happen anymore.....at least not here.....

them rioters in France recently - could have actually overthrown the government, had they thought of it. how insulting would that have been. overthrow the government and surrender all the lands to Iran or Nigeria, or some other foreign power. see the UN spring into action its all its speed & authourity. we'd still be in discussion & debate today, trying to wrestle France back into European control.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Like it or not I actually provide a valuable service here. Euterpe is no where to be seen. Why? Because her personal attacks got out of control and I started a one man war to get rid of her. It cost me a few negatives from her cronies but she's gone. Ed'sB52/I'm Back? gone. Shaun Hammett? Gone. Stillwell? Gone...well, back again but give me time. My tactics may be offensive to some but they get results and the forum is a better place without these people. A lot of people won't admit it publicly but privately I get lot's of thanks. Now you may have a point if you question who I am to judge other's this way. I can't deny that I use my own standards (in conjunction with the PFF rules). That may or may not be fair. But I can live with my conscience. Just as your neighborhood needs garbage men and oceans need sharks, forums need men willing to clean house to preserve order and the freedoms of other posters. Cliff can't do it all. He needs to be seen to be impartial. And the longevity of this forum when SOOOOOO many others have failed is due in part to people like me who are not afraid to tell a trouble maker to get lost and stay on their asses like a pit bull until they clean up their act or leave. Think about it GT86, who are the people I've had my biggest fights with? People who got banned!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: If I am in a debate then I agree 100%. And I try to keep my "debate" style more respectful. I don't always succed but then again I don't "debate" with everyone. With some it's a fight; and this is no debate. It's a fight. Patrick started it, I'm gonna end it. And agree with more or not, my fight record here is worth betting on. Maybe you should ask yourself why.

You know, at first I got a good laugh out of this, then after a few seconds, I realized you were being serious. Assuming what you say is true, and you're the reason these people aren't here, who elected you to be the forum cop? As I said earlier, I haven't been on this forum much lately, in small part because of attitudes such as yours. I must have missed the announcement that said Toddster gets to decide who stays and who gets the boot. You have only one vote as far as banning people. One vote isn't going to have much effect--are you organizing "give this person a negative" campaigns via PM, or do you have more than one username? Or do you perhaps take "credit" for things that have little or nothing to do with you? It's a bit cloudy here in Phoenix today, was that your doing?

I'm done with this thread hijack, as I believe debating with you further is pointless and you may decide to ban me I'll leave the last word to you, since I have a sneaking suspicion the last word is important for your ego. Meanwhile, today's my day off, I'm going to get some yard work done. I'll make sure to keep an eye out for the black helicopters with "Todd Squad" logos on them.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I haven't had a tiff with Patrick in over a year. For the most part he has cleaned-up his act. But when he get's off base I rein him back in. Just as your neighborhood needs garbage men and oceans need sharks, forums need men willing to clean house to preserve order and the freedoms of other posters. Cliff can't do it all. He needs to be seen to be impartial. And the longevity of this forum when SOOOOOO many others have failed is due in part to people like me who are not afraid to tell a trouble maker to get lost and stay on their asses like a pit bull until they clean up their act or leave. I don't always succed but then again I don't "debate" with everyone. With some it's a fight; and this is no debate. It's a fight. Patrick started it, I'm gonna end it. And agree with more or not, my fight record here is worth betting on. Maybe you should ask yourself why.

Toddster - PFF’s little dicktator.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: actually, the reason i no longer post here is because toddster is a rabid little martinet, whose dominance over the culture of this forum - and particularly his jackboot-in-the-face policing of its boundaries (founded always on lies, it seems) - makes this a much worse place for marginal characters like myself. i still lurk from time to time, mostly out of a kind of anthropological curiosity... internet forums like these are fantastic lenses into fractions of society with which i would otherwise have no contact and little knowledge at all, since i don't spend any time in real life hanging out in places dominated by thugs and their enablers. it's always useful to keep tabs on the lunatic fringe, though. just though i'd correct the record, since the prom queen seems to be primping his ugly little ego again. cheers, y'all. edit: i wanted to add the observation that, since todd's little "victory" (i'm sure he'll claim it as such, so i'm not going to bother setting up yet another straw wall for him to burn down), i've noticed that he's become even more clenched and weird. from one perspective it might be reinvigorated hubris... but it strikes me as being much more defensive and snarling, like a mean dog who misplaced his fake teeth.

dang...I liked your posts....
to, I never did get the feeling you was a Fiero driver.....

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: edit: i wanted to add the observation that, since todd's little "victory" (i'm sure he'll claim it as such, so i'm not going to bother setting up yet another straw wall for him to burn down), i've noticed that he's become even more clenched and weird. from one perspective it might be reinvigorated hubris... but it strikes me as being much more defensive and snarling, like a mean dog who misplaced his fake teeth.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Ah, I was wondering when you'ld show-up Scott. The usual suspects are now all accounted for. Just out of curiosity, do you Patrick, Neptune, rayb, and 84Bill have club jackets?

i actually thought that was pretty damn funny.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Toddster - PFF’s little dicktator.

Actually Kloddster is the personification of everything wrong with America. He is what I like to call the "New Amerikan." He believes conformity is the new standard measure success, knowledge is the ability to repeat what has been read to him from an approved book by someone who manage to repeat the same thing with a higher degree of accuracy... Kinda like a parrot or perhaps a lemming? See I have a piece of paper.. I'm smart.

No Kloddster is very important to me because he is the typical Amerikan... No clue, No cares, No worries cept what to watch on TV.. American Idol or.. whats that one where the guy gets voted off the island? I duno, I'd rather kill brain cells the old fashion way.. Up in smoke or excessive drinking.

You see.. it's people like Kloddster that have created this "safe world" where anyone armed with nothing more than an index finger can be magically converted into a real live terrorist.

jump on toddster day, eh?

funny. this is a gun control thread - and he's on your side........

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: edit: i wanted to add the observation that, since todd's little "victory" (i'm sure he'll claim it as such, so i'm not going to bother setting up yet another straw wall for him to burn down), i've noticed that he's become even more clenched and weird. from one perspective it might be reinvigorated hubris... but it strikes me as being much more defensive and snarling, like a mean dog who misplaced his fake teeth.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill:

And the "Best Use of a Smiley" award goes to ... 84Bill!


Euterpe,
Sorry to hear you're not spending as much time on here because of people like Todd. He may think he speaks for the majority, but he speaks only for himself. Still, I can understand not wanting to subject yourself to that level of BS just to talk to others online. I've enjoyed your posts and converstations.
------------------
"Some days you eat the bear. Some days the bear eats you. But, ALWAYS dress for the hunt!"

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: jump on toddster day, eh? funny. this is a gun control thread - and he's on your side........

No, I'm not jumping on Kloddster.. Believe it or not I love the guy because he is the best devils advocate I have ever come across and I give him mad props.. In fact I believe he has a positive rating from me. In any case his support usually is followed by some other form of regulation or rules. Allow the people to have guns but <insert new subversive rule here>... Gotta watch the fine print.

Edit

And I maintained the topic.. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but an index finger IS considered a concealed weapon.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: jump on toddster day, eh?

What I believe we’ve witnessed here is a spontaneous unified non-partisan(!) stand against an individual who obviously thinks much too highly of himself and of his influence in this forum.

Maybe we can get back to some form of normality around here now.

quote Originally posted by GT86: I must have missed the announcement that said Toddster gets to decide who stays and who gets the boot. You have only one vote as far as banning people. One vote isn't going to have much effect--are you organizing "give this person a negative" campaigns via PM, or do you have more than one username?

That's right I have one vote. But by bringing attention of a bad poster to the forum I give people who may otherwise miss a thread an opportunity to see it, read it, and make a judgement. By keeping this up and dragging the thread out enough people get a chance to see the real face of evil and, in the case of Euterpe, her bar got redder and redder and redder. She bailed on the forum just before she had no choice.

Tempting fate Euterpe? Your tough talk doesn't change the fact that you saw the inevitable and it wasn't ME speaking, it was the entire forum. THEY rated you into oblivion. Make me a lightening rod all you like. I was just the messanger. Stop bailing water on the Titanic. Go back to lurking.

GT86 I DON'T have the ability to make people disappear. But I DO have a great deal of influence on the forum as a long time Fiero authority and the people that need answers know where to come for them. Admittedly, that buys me a little latitude in my demeanor that many other forum members, like Euterpe, can't enjoy. I try not to abuse it but when dealing with obnoxious, insensative, blabbering I can only take so much before I have to do some slapping around.

I'm sorry you can't see my point but I STILL feel I have done nothing wrong. Fact, I have not used personal insults, Patrick has. I have not criticized people for how they feel about gun violence, Patrick has. I have not split hairs on points of grammer or the reporting of the news story, Patrick has. I have been on point and my point remains unchanged and I STILL after ALL THESE PAGES have yet to hear one word denying the SUBSTANCE of my post. Oh I hear lots of Toddster is a dick stuff but if any of these ....people...think that tactics that chidlish and mindless are going to do anything but make me laugh as I watch their bars get redder and redder and redder, they are like the terrorist. They are only cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: the real face of evil

-snicker-

booga booga booga...

Well even though you don't want to live in a society that allows gun ownership, we who own guns will do our best to keep you alive. And while we're at it, we'll stand up and do our best to protect some of the rights you do actually appreciate. No compensation necessary.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: It's the people and their attitude to violence and not the guns. Franky, that's way scarier than if just the guns were the problem. But more guns = more problems. I don't want to live in a society that is tolerant of violence and allows gun ownership.

quote Originally posted by Cadillac Jack: Well even though you don't want to live in a society that allows gun ownership, we who own guns will do our best to keep you alive. And while we're at it, we'll stand up and do our best to protect some of the rights you do actually appreciate. No compensation necessary.

That right there is a great post.

It's the selflessness that strikes me with the last three words... I must have read it 100 times and then I understood what is lacking.

Even though you don't want to live in a society that allows gun ownership, we who own guns will do our best to keep you alive. And while we're at it, we'll stand up and do our best to protect some of the rights you do actually appreciate. All we ask in return is that you defend ours.

United we stand, divided we fall.


I think I'll add it to the quotes thread because I like it.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I can only take so much before I have to do some slapping around.

Todd’s theme song from a previous conflict.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Nope. The 2nd Amendment is fine the way written as far as I am concerned. If we can't trust our citizens with guns how can we trust them with any other freedom, and vice versa? If we trust people with freedom then we must trust them to be allowed to defend it. the moment you begin to regulate the right to defend yourself, this republic of ours is doomed. As loath as I am to admit it. Bill and I actually agree on this one.

Personality issues aside, I agree with you 100% on this. If one right is allowed to be curtailed, all other rights are open to attack.

quote Originally posted by Cadillac Jack: Well even though you don't want to live in a society that allows gun ownership, we who own guns will do our best to keep you alive. And while we're at it, we'll stand up and do our best to protect some of the rights you do actually appreciate. No compensation necessary.

This is a great post as well. Outstanding summary of the whole reson the 2nd Amendment exists.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 04-25-2007).]