In this land where the people hated america and bombed america with out warning ..one day long after the american bombers had incinerated thier cities ,america was going to have to invade and many americans would have died fighting the worthless SHINTO,slant eyed, gook,slope, ben jo ditch lickers,But pres harry in his wisdom dropped a fat bomb and when it exploded,,thousands of slope scum were burned and incinerated,, the thought of thier women and children burning and suffering is a great joy to me today tho I suffer knowing we should have dropped 50 more such bombs on this worthless slime of a people who now, many in america worship I served with the men who would have invaded Japan.. I never knew one who did not wish most of the country of Japan had been destroyed and thier women and children enslaved ..HARSH ?? ..we have forgotten and we are now starting to pay the price,, a much worse price is comming ..HERES TO COL.TIPPETS AND THOSE LIKE HIM !!
I hope the Israelies bomb the crap out of the Iranians soon ,,there is a fat man in a coma if he wakes up .. start praying,,.then stock the armory & PANTRY ha ha
GOD ,GUNS,GUTS,AND FIERO,S MADE AMERICA GREAT,, BUT YOU DO NOT REALIZE IT YET

Preflight and fire up the Enola Gay!! (kick the tires and light the fire)

Yup those were the days when a war was a war and we fought to win.

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2

stan, what's your issue with the japanese? the germans were as much, if not more of a threat to the US, and now it's the chinese who are a threat, not the japanese.

today is the anniversary of the bombing of hiroshima. here's a good scary read: Hiroshima by john hershey.

my father did not hate the japanese, despite the fact that he served on a destroyer in the pacific in ww2, and was off the coast of japan when the bomb went in. his ship fended off several kamikaze attacks, and took an indirect hit and casualties. he said he was grateful that they dropped it, because of the lives it saved (both american and japanese) by ending the war. the war is over, in fact it's been over for quite some time.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 08-06-2008).]

not a big fan of the slurs but that was the time in our history where we took no crap and delt the deadly, a time where we actually wanted to win and showed the world we would stop at nothing to do so. It is sad tat so many innocents died but we got our point across and they have stayed dormant since.

Castle: Bravo.
The largest nuke ever set off by the U.S.
Yield, about 15 Mt. About 1000 times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 08-06-2008).]

I knew a guy, when I was 16, that had a different view Lurker. He worked as a back hoe operator for the company that gave me my 1st summer job.
His hardhat said KILL JAPS KILL JAPS KILL MORE JAPS!
This was 1966. And he meant it. Tarawa.
And there's the 'small matter of Nanking"

In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war.

The actual military invasion of Nanking was preceded by a tough battle at Shanghai that began in the summer of 1937. Chinese forces there put up surprisingly stiff resistance against the Japanese Army which had expected an easy victory in China. The Japanese had even bragged they would conquer all of China in just three months. The stubborn resistance by the Chinese troops upset that timetable, with the battle dragging on through the summer into late fall. This infuriated the Japanese and whetted their appetite for the revenge that was to follow at Nanking.

After finally defeating the Chinese at Shanghai in November, 50,000 Japanese soldiers then marched on toward Nanking. Unlike the troops at Shanghai, Chinese soldiers at Nanking were poorly led and loosely organized. Although they greatly outnumbered the Japanese and had plenty of ammunition, they withered under the ferocity of the Japanese attack, then engaged in a chaotic retreat. After just four days of fighting, Japanese troops smashed into the city on December 13, 1937, with orders issued to "kill all captives."

Their first concern was to eliminate any threat from the 90,000 Chinese soldiers who surrendered. To the Japanese, surrender was an unthinkable act of cowardice and the ultimate violation of the rigid code of military honor drilled into them from childhood onward. Thus they looked upon Chinese POWs with utter contempt, viewing them as less than human, unworthy of life.

The elimination of the Chinese POWs began after they were transported by trucks to remote locations on the outskirts of Nanking. As soon as they were assembled, the savagery began, with young Japanese soldiers encouraged by their superiors to inflict maximum pain and suffering upon individual POWs as a way of toughening themselves up for future battles, and also to eradicate any civilized notions of mercy. Filmed footage and still photographs taken by the Japanese themselves document the brutality. Smiling soldiers can be seen conducting bayonet practice on live prisoners, decapitating them and displaying severed heads as souvenirs, and proudly standing among mutilated corpses. Some of the Chinese POWs were simply mowed down by machine-gun fire while others were tied-up, soaked with gasoline and burned alive.

Maps & Photo


Present day map of China showing location of Shanghai and Nanking (now called Nanjing).


Map of the Japanese Empire at its peak in 1942.


One of the last humans left alive after intense bombing during the Japanese attack on Shanghai's South Station. August 1937.

After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.

Pregnant women were not spared. In several instances, they were raped, then had their bellies slit open and the fetuses torn out. Sometimes, after storming into a house and encountering a whole family, the Japanese forced Chinese men to rape their own daughters, sons to rape their mothers, and brothers their sisters, while the rest of the family was made to watch.

Throughout the city of Nanking, random acts of murder occurred as soldiers frequently fired their rifles into panicked crowds of civilians, killing indiscriminately. Other soldiers killed shopkeepers, looted their stores, then set the buildings on fire after locking people of all ages inside. They took pleasure in the extraordinary suffering that ensued as the people desperately tried to escape the flames by climbing onto rooftops or leaping down onto the street.

The incredible carnage - citywide burnings, stabbings, drownings, strangulations, rapes, thefts, and massive property destruction - continued unabated for about six weeks, from mid-December 1937 through the beginning of February 1938. Young or old, male or female, anyone could be shot on a whim by any Japanese soldier for any reason. Corpses could be seen everywhere throughout the city. The streets of Nanking were said to literally have run red with blood.

Those who were not killed on the spot were taken to the outskirts of the city and forced to dig their own graves, large rectangular pits that would be filled with decapitated corpses resulting from killing contests the Japanese held among themselves. Other times, the Japanese forced the Chinese to bury each other alive in the dirt.

After this period of unprecedented violence, the Japanese eased off somewhat and settled in for the duration of the war. To pacify the population during the long occupation, highly addictive narcotics, including opium and heroin, were distributed by Japanese soldiers to the people of Nanking, regardless of age. An estimated 50,000 persons became addicted to heroin while many others lost themselves in the city's opium dens.

In addition, the notorious Comfort Women system was introduced which forced young Chinese women to become slave-prostitutes, existing solely for the sexual pleasure of Japanese soldiers.

News reports of the happenings in Nanking appeared in the official Japanese press and also in the West, as page-one reports in newspapers such as the New York Times. Japanese news reports reflected the militaristic mood of the country in which any victory by the Imperial Army resulting in further expansion of the Japanese empire was celebrated. Eyewitness reports by Japanese military correspondents concerning the sufferings of the people of Nanking also appeared. They reflected a mentality in which the brutal dominance of subjugated or so-called inferior peoples was considered just. Incredibly, one paper, the Japan Advertiser, actually published a running count of the heads severed by two officers involved in a decapitation contest, as if it was some kind of a sporting match.

In the United States, reports published in the New York Times, Reader's Digest and Time Magazine, were greeted with skepticism from the American public. The stories smuggled out of Nanking seemed almost too fantastic to be believed.

Overall, most Americans had only a passing knowledge or little interest in Asia. Political leaders in both America and Britain remained overwhelmingly focused on the situation in Europe where Adolf Hitler was rapidly re-arming Germany while at the same time expanding the borders of the Nazi Reich through devious political maneuvers.

Back in Nanking, however, all was not lost. An extraordinary group of about 20 Americans and Europeans remaining in the city, composed of missionaries, doctors and businessmen, took it upon themselves to establish an International Safety Zone. Using Red Cross flags, they brazenly declared a 2.5 square-mile area in the middle of the city off limits to the Japanese. On numerous occasions, they also risked their lives by personally intervening to prevent the execution of Chinese men or the rape of women and young girls.

These Westerners became the unsung heroes of Nanking, working day and night to the point of exhaustion to aid the Chinese. They also wrote down their impressions of the daily scenes they witnessed, with one describing Nanking as "hell on earth." Another wrote of the Japanese soldiers: "I did not imagine that such cruel people existed in the modern world." About 300,000 Chinese civilians took refuge inside their Safety Zone. Almost all of the people who did not make it into the Zone during the Rape of Nanking ultimately perished.

Yeah, I know--71 yrs ago-ancient history you will say--not even in this century--different Japanese culture. One of the top selling souveniers in Japan today is an orange scarf, with the Japanese synbols for "Divine Wind" which is the same thing the Kamakaze pilots wore as they crashed in to our ships. One of the reasons I know this, is my not-so long-ago boss brought a bunch of them back from Japan when she visisted the Kubota factory and presented each of us with one of them. I refused it, explaining to her what it was. She hadn't a clue and said they sell them everywhere in Japan.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-06-2008).]

It was actually Little Boy, a uranium gun weapon, dropped from Enola Gay. Bock's Car dropped Fat Man, a plutonium implosion weapon on August 9th. Major Sweeny was at the controls that day, Bock was piloting the observation plane. The Japanese military didn't see much difference in the atomic bombings and the fire bombings, just got the job done faster.

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: Yup those were the days when a war was a war and we fought to win.

yes..and you/we could do so with impunity, because there were no other countries who resented the bombing enough, AND had the capability to reply with as much power then,on behalf of the Japanese at the time, to inflict counter-damage to the West. That would hardly be allowed nowadays, methinks..but I COULD be wrong That kind of agression today would probably result in a Nuclear World War. Or maybe I am wrong...who really knows? I think poking that hornets' nest nowadays with such vigour would result in far more stings being inflicted on the West? Possibly fatal to many other Western countries who are closer.

quote Originally posted by lurker: stan, what's your issue with the japanese? the germans were as much, if not more of a threat to the US, and now it's the chinese who are a threat, not the japanese. today is the anniversary of the bombing of hiroshima. here's a good scary read: Hiroshima by john hershey. my father did not hate the japanese, despite the fact that he served on a destroyer in the pacific in ww2, and was off the coast of japan when the bomb went in. his ship fended off several kamikaze attacks, and took an indirect hit and casualties. he said he was grateful that they dropped it, because of the lives it saved (both american and japanese) by ending the war. the war is over, in fact it's been over for quite some time.

I think Pearl Harbor probably has something to do with it.
We went to Europe to fight the Germans.
The Japanese struck us first, without warning, here at home.

"We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we will always be free. " - Ronald Reagan

quote Originally posted by jetman: It was actually Little Boy, a uranium gun weapon, dropped from Enola Gay. Bock's Car dropped Fat Man, a plutonium implosion weapon on August 9th.

Uhlanstan is not referring to the bomb when he mentions "a fat man in a coma".
He is talking about Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime minister who had the stroke in 2006, and is currently in a vegetative coma. Sharon is on record as saying he would use "all weapons in Israel's arsenal" to prevent Iran from becoming nuclear capable.
Sharon was "not of small physical stature". (he was/is fat)

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I knew a guy, when I was 16, that had a different view Lurker. He worked as a back hoe operator for the company that gave me my 1st summer job. His hardhat said KILL JAPS KILL JAPS KILL MORE JAPS! This was 1966. And he meant it. Tarawa.

i also knew a marine who took a japanese bullet through his spine at iwo jima. he got over his hatred, despite the fact he spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair. he was my next door neighbor from 82-86, and toward the end i visited him in the VA hospital.

i can understand hatred for people who tried to kill you. but those japanese, and the government that suckered them into war, are (nearly) all dead. do we now hate their grandchildren? why, because they're as good, or better, at capitalism than we are? heroes do what is necessary, then try to lead normal lives. having achieved fame, cincinnatus, washington, lee, all wanted nothing more than to till the soil in peace, free from hate.

we are not the innocents we pretend to be. the US considered starting war with france, spain or england before the american civil war. the US has trumped up wars, in mexico, cuba and the phillipines, because "we" wanted their land, sugar cane or ports, on lies and the flimsiest of pretexts, fed to the people by our government via a press eager to sell war news. we've practiced genocide and put up concentration camps. are they justified in hating us, 100 or 150 years later?

i'm not anti-american. this is probably still the most free country in history, and there are few, very few other places i'd want to live. but we should see ourselves honestly, as we really are, and not as flawless 2-dimensional comic-book heroes. history is full of real, normal, ordinary men and women who rose to meet exceptional circumstance. it does our real heroes (and ourselves) no service to pretend that they are somehow superhuman. to believe that demeans their doubts, their fears, their courage and their sacrifices.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 08-06-2008).]

Though we blame the Japanese for the sneak attack{ I believe it was on the military channel } the Japanese were in a war with China. We thought of the Chinese as friends because of the British who lived there.
We { the U.S.} blockaded their harbors so they couldn't get food, ammo, and fuel.
The Japanese attacked us because of that.
Not trying to start a war...but just heard that today.

quote Originally posted by never2old: Though we blame the Japanese for the sneak attack{ I believe it was on the military channel } the Japanese were in a war with China. We thought of the Chinese as friends because of the British who lived there. We { the U.S.} blockaded their harbors so they couldn't get food, ammo, and fuel. The Japanese attacked us because of that. Not trying to start a war...but just heard that today.

ive never hear of a blockade, but i do know we were cutting off exports to japan because of the war in china. japan needed steel, oil and rubber for their war machine, and we had been selling them our scrap iron and oil, which china could not provide. rubber they got by taking malaysia from the british.

quote Originally posted by never2old: Though we blame the Japanese for the sneak attack{ I believe it was on the military channel } the Japanese were in a war with China. We thought of the Chinese as friends because of the British who lived there. We { the U.S.} blockaded their harbors so they couldn't get food, ammo, and fuel. The Japanese attacked us because of that. Not trying to start a war...but just heard that today.

You beat me to the punch......it seems that little factoid got lost to history.

One thing I remember is a story told to me from a Hawaiian.

He hated the Japanese for WWII. He let that hate fester for years.

Fast forward to the 1990s he went on his annual pilgramage to the USS ARIZONA memorial.

It one moment he was moved beyond belief...

Situated at the exit from the memorial as he was leaving, was a wreath. on it was inscribed..
From the people of the city of Hiroshima

It was then he was able to find the ability to forgive the people of Japan.

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 08-06-2008).]

Yes to all your questions Lurker. Maybe not so much hate as a strong distrust. Same for the Russians and Germans.
Us getting into wars in other countries on a fairly regular basis is the #1 reason no invading army has landed on our continental shore since the Brits did it in the early 1800s. The world understands we can fight, and we will fight, and will do so for just about any reason. Occassionally, we have to remind others of this, and reinforce it. The world has short memories. The Panama and Grenada things were more about this than anything else. (Grenada was the 1st major US military endeavor since Vietnam)
Remember, The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth--a 6 ft plot of it.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-06-2008).]

my information was second hand so maybe it was just an embargo of goods.
Either way I guess the Japanese were telling us to mind our own business,,,,,and we did.
And look at them now. Holy ohh crap.
Any country that wants to advance.......just start a war with the U.S.
We will kick your ass...but when it is all over we will rebuild your country even if we should rebuild our own.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Occassionally, we have to remind others of this, and reinforce it.

Occasionally, we have to remind OURSELVES of this. When people in our country grow up without real opposition, without knowing what is really, truly evil, then they oppose the methods of war to defend ourselves.

It is why we have an influx of illegals who bring crime and weigh down our education, health care, and law enforcement systems. It is why we pussyfoot around when dealing with "Mexican Nationals" who sneak into our country, then perform savage acts of brutality, then want us to listen to the "world court."

It is why so many people oppose what the military does, and want - actually want the war in Iraq to be a failure. (And no, it isn't already one, until we leave them the way they are today). Living in a free America isn't a right. The USA won't stand against her enemies just because it has in the past. Americans are slow to anger as a people, but once we are angry, we win. So the strategy these days by our many enemies is to not anger us, but let us beat ourselves.

I'm not a conservative about most things, but when it comes to the military and national defense, I make Reagan look like a bleeding heart liberal.

As for Japan and history: Our blockade did not justify Pearl Harbor. We were defending an ally against the aggressor that was Japan. And for the bomb, imagine how many US soldiers would have died taking the main islands.

- Flamberge

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: yes..and you/we could do so with impunity, because there were no other countries who resented the bombing enough, AND had the capability to reply with as much power then,on behalf of the Japanese at the time, to inflict counter-damage to the West. That would hardly be allowed nowadays, methinks..but I COULD be wrong That kind of agression today would probably result in a Nuclear World War. Or maybe I am wrong...who really knows? I think poking that hornets' nest nowadays with such vigour would result in far more stings being inflicted on the West? Possibly fatal to many other Western countries who are closer.

The war in Europe was fought with conventional warfare, at the time. Europian conflicts were about ground warfare. IMHO air superiority and breaking the ability of resuply, by Germany / Itally, pretty much made Europe a done deal, on the Allies way of thinking.
Kudo's Nick, to the RAF, but for them things could have gone either way. We were trying to Help?
December 7th 1941. 'A day that will live in Infamy'. woke the sleeping giant?
70 years earlier, the US fought a war within our States, 150 + years later there are still some folks that are pissed.
Europe blew it's top a few years earlier? Stemming from Arch Duke Ferd, getting whacked?
IMHO WW1 was a Push, but I'm not about saying that Am-Vets didn't give their all.
Both WW1 and WWII , in Europe, were fought on 'Old School' conventions.
[Sise=3]Japan[/Size]
Used Bacteriological and Chemical warefare in China.
They didn't follow resonable humanity for conquered areas. Google 'Rape of Nanjing'.
Differences in culture allowed them to see 'others' as sub-human.
Germany had some cultural bias' s too?
Thing is?
The US suffered a-lot in the Pacific.
There was no hope of an 'Old School' win , with Japan, it was a diferent convention?
Korea, Viet Nam, Israel?
At least the party's were talking?
Islamist's?

------------------
Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto.
Turning white on top, like owner.
Leaks a little, like owner.
Doesn't smoke....... OK, we're trying to quit.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: ,,thousands of slope scum were burned and incinerated,, the thought of thier women and children burning and suffering is a great joy to me today

Wow. Just wow.

[RANT]
Even in war, one who takes joy in the suffering of others is merely a sadist. It may be necessary to kill others, it may be necessary to do so in a less than humane manner, but to take joy from that process is perversion.

BTW, my wife has the same genes as the people you so glibly call "slope scum" (as if applying a label to an entire race of human beings somehow justifies a feeling of superiority). Her dad fought with Charley Co., 442nd/100th. His physical activity was limited until the day he died due to a piece of German shrapnel that was snuggled up close to his spine, because he fought to clear the way for your feelings of superiority. A family friend, Uncle Eddie, also of the 442, tells stories of how they were used as cannon fodder to cover for white officers' mistakes. Yet the 442 is reputed to be the most decorated unit, man for man, in the history of the US military. Uncle Eddie's wife was among those mainland Japanese-Americans who were forced to sell their hard-earned homes and possessions, and who were thrown into concentration camps by their fellow, freedom-loving American citizens (land of the free, home of the brave, and all that), merely because of the way they looked.

This day should be marked, and remembered. Whether dropping the bomb was necessary is a matter of debate, but ending the cultural mindset that allowed the rape of Nanking and the Bataan death march was absolutely necessary. Certainly, the effect of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a good thing for the men who would otherwise have had to land on the beaches of Japan. But to take joy in the suffering of innocents who had no voice in setting the policies that ultimately led to their own horrific deaths, and to hide behind labels such as "slope scum" as an excuse to not regard their suffering as human suffering, well that's childish, irresponsible, and ignorant. It's also unbecoming of an American.
[/RANT]

[This message has been edited by Shyster (edited 08-07-2008).]

Yes, Roosevelt simply cut off US exports to Japan. Japan looked southward toward Luzon and the only force in the Pacific that could stop them was the US fleet at Pearl harbor. Luzon, being part of the Philippine Archipelago, and a US Commonwealth, meant war with the US.
There was no "modern for 1940s" era US ships in the vicinity of Japan at the outset of the war, so there certainly was not a blockade going on. Just what was called the Asiatic Fleet. A hodge podge collection of ships from Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, and England. Older ships, coal burners and consisted of a couple of cruisers, and some heavy and light destroyers. No battleships-no carriers. Without enough fuel to make it back to a safe harbor, They were basically told to make it home the best way they could after the war started, but decided to fight it out. The cruiser USS Houston was among those who perished. There are several books regarding the Asiatic Fleet and it's heroic demise. Good reading, and a story few even know about today.

However, to say that Japan had no dreams of world domination, is a bit of a stretch. They did lean that way, and had for centuries. "One world under one roof" was their concept. The Tanaka Plan (Tanaka Memorial) actually warned the Japanese Imperial Military, that the key was to conquer China via Manchuria, but also told them, that any other excursions into the South Pacific would invite war with the US, and that was a war that was un-winnable. Japan's military planners were convinced, (correctly) that the US would soon be embroiled in war with Germany, and once that happened, they believed (incorrectly) that the US would seek a peaceful solution to the war Japan was about to start with the US in the Pacific.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: We went to Europe to fight the Germans. The Japanese struck us first, without warning, here at home.

although we had espionage and a "low-intensity conflict" in the atlantic (german u-boats sank a US destroyer escorting convoys of war materiels to england), Germany was not in favor of war with the US in 1941. Germany was upset with japan for bringing the US into the war, but honored its treaty obligations, declaring war on the US shortly after pearl Harbor.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we will always be free. " - Ronald Reagan

"speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt, winner of the 1905 nobel peace prize for mediating the treaty ending the russo-japanese war.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 08-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: In this land where the people hated america and bombed america with out warning ..one day long after the american bombers had incinerated thier cities ,america was going to have to invade and many americans would have died fighting the worthless SHINTO,slant eyed, gook,slope, ben jo ditch lickers,But pres harry in his wisdom dropped a fat bomb and when it exploded,,thousands of slope scum were burned and incinerated,, the thought of thier women and children burning and suffering is a great joy to me today tho I suffer knowing we should have dropped 50 more such bombs on this worthless slime of a people who now, many in america worship I served with the men who would have invaded Japan.. I never knew one who did not wish most of the country of Japan had been destroyed and thier women and children enslaved ..HARSH ?? ..we have forgotten and we are now starting to pay the price,, a much worse price is comming ..HERES TO COL.TIPPETS AND THOSE LIKE HIM !! I hope the Israelies bomb the crap out of the Iranians soon ,,there is a fat man in a coma if he wakes up .. start praying,,.then stock the armory & PANTRY ha ha GOD ,GUNS,GUTS,AND FIERO,S MADE AMERICA GREAT,, BUT YOU DO NOT REALIZE IT YET

You have issues.
Mostly I think you like the shock value you get out of rambles. Toning down your diatribe certainly won't get as much attention but those that read it may give more worth. You may even be able to educate some people if they could take you seriously.
Do you realize that most people don't have any idea what kind of an enemy Japanese were? Very few people can relate or grasp why you splutter out the things you have spluttered.

Another thing that I find upsetting about your comments is your disdain of the Japanese general populace. After we had pretty much defeated Japans ability to attack they (the military) would not accept defeat so we kept beating them to no avail. We sent in incendiary bomb into their civilian cities and literally burned every man woman and child alive. These were just civilians that didn't know squat about the war or why their country was in it. They had no vote or even a word to voice their opinion. We killed them and not and easy fast kill either. We killed them to force surrender.

Invading japan could have cost more than 200,000 allied lives. Better they die than us I agree but to take any pleasure in it is just despicable.

Unfortunately the same military command that promoted torturing enemy soldiers of war in the most horrific manners that are truly unspeakable also didn't give a rats ass about their civilians.
Honor in winning or dieing in failure was all they cared about. Do you really relish the thought of those people dieing in such a manner. If you do what exactly makes you any different than the soldiers that would cut a thousand slices into a man and then force march him naked just to tie him up to trees so the insects could eat him alive?

I think you should keep your hatred to yourself. If you only want to promote hate instead of education maybe the best thing is for you to take your **** to the grave with you.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: You have issues. Mostly I think you like the shock value you get out of rambles. Toning down your diatribe certainly won't get as much attention but those that read it may give more worth. You may even be able to educate some people if they could take you seriously. Do you realize that most people don't have any idea what kind of an enemy Japanese were? Very few people can relate or grasp why you splutter out the things you have spluttered. Another thing that I find upsetting about your comments is your disdain of the Japanese general populace. After we had pretty much defeated Japans ability to attack they (the military) would not accept defeat so we kept beating them to no avail. We sent in incendiary bomb into their civilian cities and literally burned every man woman and child alive. These were just civilians that didn't know squat about the war or why their country was in it. They had no vote or even a word to voice their opinion. We killed them and not and easy fast kill either. We killed them to force surrender. Invading japan could have cost more than 200,000 allied lives. Better they die than us I agree but to take any pleasure in it is just despicable. Unfortunately the same military command that promoted torturing enemy soldiers of war in the most horrific manners that are truly unspeakable also didn't give a rats ass about their civilians. Honor in winning or dieing in failure was all they cared about. Do you really relish the thought of those people dieing in such a manner. If you do what exactly makes you any different than the soldiers that would cut a thousand slices into a man and then force march him naked just to tie him up to trees so the insects could eat him alive? I think you should keep your hatred to yourself. If you only want to promote hate instead of education maybe the best thing is for you to take your **** to the grave with you.

The conflict was pretty much over, an invasion would have had stupid? # of people dead?
Thing is, the US was 'bowing their wad', and almost couldn't afford the 2 costs of an Invsaion?

Could have stragled on for awhile, each advisory dieing whth their swords?

[This message has been edited by DtheC (edited 08-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by DtheC: The war in Europe was fought with conventional warfare, at the time. Europian conflicts were about ground warfare. IMHO air superiority and breaking the ability of resuply, by Germany / Itally, pretty much made Europe a done deal, on the Allies way of thinking. Kudo's Nick, to the RAF, but for them things could have gone either way. We were trying to Help? December 7th 1941. 'A day that will live in Infamy'. woke the sleeping giant? 70 years earlier, the US fought a war within our States, 150 + years later there are still some folks that are pissed. Europe blew it's top a few years earlier? Stemming from Arch Duke Ferd, getting whacked? IMHO WW1 was a Push, but I'm not about saying that Am-Vets didn't give their all. Both WW1 and WWII , in Europe, were fought on 'Old School' conventions. [Sise=3]Japan[/Size] Used Bacteriological and Chemical warefare in China. They didn't follow resonable humanity for conquered areas. Google 'Rape of Nanjing'. Differences in culture allowed them to see 'others' as sub-human. Germany had some cultural bias' s too? Thing is? The US suffered a-lot in the Pacific. There was no hope of an 'Old School' win , with Japan, it was a diferent convention? Korea, Viet Nam, Israel? At least the party's were talking? Islamist's?

I honestly revere the way the Americans have stood for us ALL over the years. Without the US, the world would be a much sorrier mess than it is now. I hate War, and I hate the killing and atrocities that go with it. Sadly those atrocities serve a purpose, because they inflame the righteous (from our perspective anyway ), to get something done.
I owe my feedom to be able to go wherever I choose , without hindrance or fear. I thank the people who fought, and lost their lives, in that objective.And those who survived, and returned to impart their experiences in that Theatre, whichever country they came from. And once again, I have learned from people who have bothered learn for themselves through reading, and listening to people who were there at the time. The first I didn´t do, because I hated the War because of the brutality and suffering which sickened me as a child. The second I didn´t experience, because my Father wouldn´t talk about it, and neither would anybody else I knew who was there too.And the UK has not been involved in any real large-scale battles during my lifetime, and therefore I don´t have first-hand experiences either from myself, or others who HAVE, as the Americans do.
So I have learned a broader perspective from reading these posts. I am therefore obliquely grateful that Uhlanstan posted his feelings. It brought forward views and thoughts that I might never have read..so out of what is quite possibly a distasteful rant, came some good.
I think I need to spend some more time reading.
Nick
Edit to add:

I will never forget the spine-tingling experience I had, when that fabulous John F Kennedy ship from the US visited Barcelona. I will never forget the innate feeling of being protected when that amazing craft sailed in and docked here. I will never forget the awe and admiratin that showed on the faces of the thousands who gathered to view her. I will never forget the wonderful, heart-warming sight of American Military personnel proudly wearing their uniforms. And I will never forget the friendliness and warmth those personnel imparted to everybody during their stay here, both in uniform and out, when they mingled with the people of Spain, and others from different countries who were also free to spend their holidays here.
God Bless, and guide America. The debt we owe you fades all too easily from the memories of the the young who have never experienced strife, BECAUSE you helped to give us the freedom to be able to forget. irony at its finest, I think.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-07-2008).]

My grand father was at Pearl Harbor, all he would talk about is how we let them in and trusted them before they hit.
Ever have a friend betray you?
He wouldn't go into it and drank heavily. See he didn't have one of those glorious jobs, he was just a cook. He did his job because thats what they asked him to do. But he had a great love for our Country and was truly crushed by the attack.
Those that forget history are bound to repeat it.

The citizens or population of a country ARE part of that countries war machine and in my opinion legitimate targets. I believe to think otherwise is stupid and dangerous. War is supposed to be ugly.

"it is good that war is so terrible, lest we should come to like it too much" - R. E. Lee, Fredericksburg, Md, 1862

Your hatred is missplaced. Can you really hate apeople because of the sins of their fathers? If there is anyone who is really to blame for the condition of our nation, it is us. We are to blame for being too lazy to see who we vote into office or for not voting at all. Then we act real mad because they don't really serve our interests but their own. We can't even blame China. We want everything at the cheapest price possible. It's too expensive for us to make it that cheap and China fills that void.
We only have ourselves to blame for our nations condition, but it is easier to pass the buck.

There are still rumors about Pearl Harbor. Why was the aircraft carriers, which is what the Japanese really wanted, out to sea at the same time?
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-9.htm


pokeyfiero, you numbers are low. The estimated allied (which was mostly US) causality rate for Operation Downfall was one half to one million. Civilian deaths were estimated as possibly complete annihilation due to suicide missions.


If those that were there and saw the atrocities first hand can forgive, why are there those that have never been there have such a hatred?

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 08-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Your hatred is missplaced. Can you really hate apeople because of the sins of their fathers? If there is anyone who is really to blame for the condition of our nation, it is us. We are to blame for being too lazy to see who we vote into office or for not voting at all. Then we act real mad because they don't really serve our interests but their own. We can't even blame China. We want everything at the cheapest price possible. It's too expensive for us to make it that cheap and China fills that void. We only have ourselves to blame for our nations condition, but it is easier to pass the buck.

Dont blanket everyone with that statement.

quote Originally posted by Shyster: Wow. Just wow. [RANT] Uncle Eddie's wife was among those mainland Japanese-Americans who were forced to sell their hard-earned homes and possessions, and who were thrown into concentration camps by their fellow, freedom-loving American citizens (land of the free, home of the brave, and all that), merely because of the way they looked. [/RANT]

I just wanted to point out that comparing the interment camps that Japanese-Americans were held in can not and should not be compared to concentration camps. Considering that the Japanese-American who were held during the war at the internment camps were not either forced to do hard physical labor with little to no food until they died nor were they taken striped and gassed to death.
They were only held in certain areas because the government at the time was hyper paranoid about spies.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: The citizens or population of a country ARE part of that countries war machine and in my opinion legitimate targets. I believe to think otherwise is stupid and dangerous. War is supposed to be ugly.

Different time, different place. We are becoming biased by current "warfare" trends. We now look at NON UNIFORMED CITIZENS as combatants because of the way things are now with terrorism, etc. Back then, you didn't TARGET NON UNIFORMED CITIZENS. And we shouldn't indiscriminantly target them now either.

quote Originally posted by FieroJam: I just wanted to point out that comparing the interment camps that Japanese-Americans were held in can not and should not be compared to concentration camps. Considering that the Japanese-American who were held during the war at the internment camps were not either forced to do hard physical labor with little to no food until they died nor were they taken striped and gassed to death. They were only held in certain areas because the government at the time was hyper paranoid about spies.

I respectfully disagree. The euphemistically termed "evacuees" were indeed concentrated in these "internment" camps, and the camps were thus, by definition, concentration camps. Putting different labels on the thing doesn't change what it was. Not gassed to death? Perhaps being beaten and shot was better, but I wasn't there, so I don't know. Perhaps one can find a quiet sense of dignity in being ripped from one's home without trial, conviction, or even an accusation of any wrongdoing and being forced to live in a horse stall (oh, that's right, the government called them "apartments") at a racetrack for for five months, but somehow I doubt it.

Much more about what these people went through can be found here.

quote Originally posted by FieroFanatic13: Different time, different place. We are becoming biased by current "warfare" trends. We now look at NON UNIFORMED CITIZENS as combatants because of the way things are now with terrorism, etc. Back then, you didn't TARGET NON UNIFORMED CITIZENS. And we shouldn't indiscriminantly target them now either.

Actually, back in WWII, the targeting of un-uniformed civilians took place on a very large scale, by both sides. Perhaps not with rifle bullets, but certainly with bombs, artillery and naval gunfire. And both sides did it. The almost nightly bombings of London by germany. The daylight & nighttime bombing by allies over Hamburg, Berlin, and other German cities. (Goggle "The 1000 plane raid"), and the aforementioned incendiary bombing of several Japanese cities, in the months prior to the dropping of the 2 atomic bombs.

Nowdays, with the press pretty much covering the wars, and public scrutiny in the minds of all, we do try our best (?) to avoid collatoral damage.

I do not neccessarily agree with this, as I really think, if we are going to war, bring it all to the table. Prosecute war to it's fullest possible severity.

Well, at least he's giving the Mexicans a rest. Total war involves destroying the enemies capacity to wage war, that means destroying factories that produce munitions, and the workers who run those factories, which means the general population of the cities which have factories. The same tactic was applied to Germany, if you can't hit the factories, kill the workers in their beds, anything to stop production. No country, nation or race is innocent of crime or atrocity, the extent of the barbarity depends on the form of government and the amount of dissent tolerated. A democracy like the US, who decimated the American Indian population with disease and starvation, was still subject to opposition and public debate concerning the treatment of the natives, that's why you have treaties and a large number of American Indians alive today. In contrast, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Idi Amin, and many other totalitarian dictators slaughtered millions of their own citizens. Look at what used to be Yugoslavia, look at half of Africa. I do have to agree taking these actions is necessary to win a war, but I could take no pleasure in the suffering and death that is a consequence of these actions. The Japanese had a plan to defend the homeland, they knew the Americans would have to invade to defeat them and had stockpiles of weapons and material prepared. They also had close to 3 million combat veterans in China, a short boat ride away. If America had attempted an invasion and been repulsed, what would have happened then? Large scale seaborn invasions are extremely difficult, Normandy was not a forgone victory, the Germans could have stopped the invasion on the beaches if they had reacted promptly. That is why no one has invaded North America, can you imagine the time, effort, and sheer mass of material required to launch a seaborn invasion with any chance of success from say China? And if you did get a decent foothold on American soil you could expect to encounter massive chemical, possible biological, and maybe even nuclear counter attacks. Then you have to support a massive logistics train across the Pacific Ocean. Even island hopping along the Aleutians and through Alaska, after they took Japan and part of Siberia, would be a massive undertaking. Flip the coin, assuming the complete cooperation of Japan and the Phillipines, what would it take for the US to invade China?

I understand why we dropped the bombs and I don't try to Monday-morning quarterback the logic. I still don't see any evidence the Japanese or German *wouldn't* have done the same thing if they had developed the weapons first (they were trying but obviously didn't apply the resources we did).

If I had my way we wouldn't have done it but the circumstances at the time didn't allow my thinking to apply. I would be quite happy if we had never developed these things nor had the need to use them. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way.

But this comment from Uhlanstan " ..the thought of thier women and children burning and suffering is a great joy to me today tho I suffer knowing we should have dropped 50 more such bombs on this worthless slime of a people who now..." is beyond rational thought.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-07-2008).]

I wrote a little blurb on this last year or the year before when we discussed this. My wife's granddad was taken off one of the Islands in Hawaii. The Japs broke their backs before throwing them in the hold so they wouldn't cause trouble on the trip. He was later killed in a concentration camp in Japan. Don't you F'ing dare compare the two camps or treatment.