About a week ago my father was driving the 96 Chevy Blazer, parked it overnight, and it wouldn't start the next morning. Cranked and cranked and cranked, but never fired. So it finally got warm enough outside today (25 degrees and sunny!) so that I could work on it.

Start with fuel system test. Hooked the gauge up to the fuel line, turn the key, 58 psi, nice (specs 55-62 psi). After pulling #1 spark plug it's wet and smells heavily of fuel. So problem must be spark, and I'm happy I don't have to buy a $250 fuel pump.

Start with spark plug #1 after removing air cleaner assembly. Get it out, and it's a slightly rusty Autolite 605. What's weird about this is the truck has only 22,000 miles, and it's got new plugs. Not only that, but the cheapest copper plugs you can buy, and this truck is supposed to be platinum-only. So I spend an hour getting out #3 (which I've read on Blazer forums is the biggest PITA, and it was), and I pull out the original AC Delco plug the truck would have had from the factory. Unbelieveable. Pull the rest, and they're all Autolite 605's. Replace the ignition coil, all the plugs with the proper AC Delco platinums, replace all the original plug wires, and the original cap and rotor (which had a LOT of rust and corrosion on the contacts inside the cap), and it starts up the first try and runs great.

So some lazy bastard not only uses the cheapest plugs he could find, the wrong type of plug, AND leaves #3 in there.

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1984 Fiero SE

Had that sort of thing happen once in my 87 Camaro. Ended up pulling out a broken OEM out of it after a so called tune up. It was the rear passenger side, a real pain in the butt to get to. Took the pieces back to the store and threatened to sue the place for fraud. Got a refund for the entire 'job'.

It was cold and i really didn't feel like doing it myself in the driveway.. I learned my lesson.

yerp, sounds about right....
working at a parts store, i sadly see stuff like this alot, overhearing what they tell the customers and knowing what they buy, and ive had several of them "i sell 6 plugs, one gets returned" things happen...

on the plus side, i know what shops NOT to goto.

Must be some typos here. You said it was a '96 Blazer? With 22,000 miles? And the plugs have been changed already? If there aren't any typos, there's something wrong with the situation. I had a '96 Jimmy (same truck with a different grille) with 171,000 miles (4.3) and it had the original plugs with no issues. Did the truck sit for a long time? Salvage truck with a boneyard motor? Barn find?

To be more accurate with your thread topic, it was a "Lazy Person" not necessarily a "Lazy Mechanic". Anybody that would do that is no mechanic.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Monkeyman: Must be some typos here. You said it was a '96 Blazer? With 22,000 miles? And the plugs have been changed already?

Not a typo, owned by a little old lady that only drove it to Church and the store on Sunday. The dealer that installed the old wheelchair lift in the back (which probably changed the plugs) did a real shitty job too, and was a fire waiting to happen. Fixed that back when I got it and put the new battery in.

That's probably how most V6 Fiero "tune-ups" were done. Change the aft 3 plugs and leave the firewall side plugs alone.

I have spent a lot of time around 'heavy line' mechanics at dealerships throughout Socal as an arbitrator for warranty claims on engines and transmissions. Most mechanics work on 'flag time', (flat rate pay for a particular job regardless on how long it actually takes to do the repair). 'Flag Time' came about as a reward system for fast, knowledgeable mechanics to get paid by the job and not how long it took them to fix the problem at hand. At the same time, the same program provided the dishonest mechanics ample opportunity to abuse the system.

A good service manager should be getting an accounting of parts used/parts pulled by doing diligent checks on the mechanics, in the spirit of looking our for the client. Unfortunately, most service managers that I have met are lazy douche bags and don't do this. I have been in dealerships where the mechanic will tell the service manager to go ***** himself and get away with it and I have been in dealerships where the service manager won't let the client talk to the mechanic that is working on the car. I think both of these scenarios are wrong, but they do exist in many dealerships.

The mentality of dealership management has done little or nothing to remedy this ongoing problem.

I always tell people to find a mechanic they like and trust, someone they can work with, talk to, pay them fairly, and stick with them for all of you're worth.

Otherwise, your visit to the mechanic could be a shot in the dark each and every time you go to get your car serviced.

There are many,many,many good qualified mechanics out there. Your job is to find one that knows what he/she is doing and stick with them.

[This message has been edited by 85GT3.4Track4spdCar (edited 01-05-2009).]

Always ask for the old parts back. If they lost them or tell you they were used for cores then tell them to show you the new parts.
I'm sure there are a lot of good mechanics out there, they go to work and try to do the best they can. Its the ones that pull crap like this that make all of them look bad. They know that an older lady isn't going to go look and see if her shocks and struts have been changed, shes going to take it back because it must be something else because the car still rides like crap.

Man don't get me started.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Not a typo, owned by a little old lady that only drove it to Church and the store on Sunday.

OK. I'm sure you can understand my reasoning behind the typo remark. Not many mainstream vehicles that old with low miles. How did you come across it?

Well not only low miles for the year, but who in thief right mind would replace platniums at under 22 k

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Well not only low miles for the year, but who in thief right mind would replace platniums at under 22 k

The little old lady was probably told that she needed a "tune up".

Joe

Ookay, lots'a pent up anger here.....

How about we all just take a step back,

WHY does it NEED platinum plugs, they are used from the factory for durability (to claim 100,000Mi plug) there will be zero performance difference.

WHY did it really not start, probably because of something to do with the cap/rotor or a simple connection had come loose.

and WHY didnt you just go through the fender well for the #3 plug.... (ok, that last one im just giving you crap )

Other then the fact that #3 did not get replaced and the cap/rotor is old and should have been replaced, I see nothing wrong with what the mechanic did. (Yes mechanic, a real mechanic is now considered a Technician )

After ten years, the cap and rotor was probably the original problem (probably a misfire) that triggered the complaint (too much resistance), the mechanic (remember thats not a good term) assumed it was plugs and replaced them. The reduced resistance (because even platinum would tarnish a little) probably made it run good enough to make the customer happy, while not actually fixing it right.

So the mechanic still didn't do a good job, but I highly doubt that he was the result of your no-fire condition.

But yes, there is a massive problem in the industry, its called "aww its good enough" (ever heard of the term HALF-A$$) and it comes from old mechanics at places like Midas/NTB/CarX that young technicians learn from. I am fighting against this crap every single day whether its at my SCHOOL or my job. Guess what, that guy from carX is now teaching hundreds of young men near you. They also have an irritating side-effect of being bulletproof because their employers don't know any better either, "Experience" beats knowledge every time. (emphasis on the quotes)

Now there is such thing as an experienced knowledgeable technician, but they are either buried deep in the dealer shop working on drivability, transmission, and electronic diagnosis, or they are the service manager, or they have started a shop of their own, or if they're stupid, lecturing 30 teenagers as 3/4 of them sleep/eat/text/zone-out, or if they've wised up they got a degree in engineering

Jake,
NTB, Service Writer
Student at Universal Technical Institute, Glendale Heights, IL

[/rant]

[This message has been edited by 4-mulaGT (edited 01-04-2009).]

Jake, you need to rethink your rant.

If a mechanic does a half-assed job and it breaks down again because of something they should have fixed the first time, yes it's the lame mechanic's fault. A mechanic - or TECHNICIAN, if you prefer - should be more than a parts monkey. It's reasonable to expect them to find the root cause of the problem and fix it right the first time. It's also reasonable to expect them to use the parts the factory recommends.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: WHY does it NEED platinum plugs, they are used from the factory for durability (to claim 100,000Mi plug) there will be zero performance difference.

Because it's what it came with from the factory, and lots of people on the Blazer forum (I did a search ) had problems with any plug other than the original-type AC Delco platinums

quote WHY did it really not start, probably because of something to do with the cap/rotor or a simple connection had come loose.

I think the main reason it didn't start WAS the cap and rotor, they had a lot of corossion and rust on the contacts

quote and WHY didnt you just go through the fender well for the #3 plug.... (ok, that last one im just giving you crap )

Becase it looked like a real PITA to jack it up, support it on stands, and find all the bolts that hold the liner on. The only jack I have is the one I use for the Fiero, and I don't think it's rated for something as heavy as the Blazer. And the steering shaft was DIRECTLY in the way of the plug, so going in through there wouldn't guarantee success, either. Every repair I've had to do under the truck so far, I can just lay on my back and pull myself under, no jacking required.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Jake, you need to rethink your rant. If a mechanic does a half-assed job and it breaks down again because of something they should have fixed the first time, yes it's the lame mechanic's fault. A mechanic - or TECHNICIAN, if you prefer - should be more than a parts monkey. It's reasonable to expect them to find the root cause of the problem and fix it right the first time. It's also reasonable to expect them to use the parts the factory recommends.

I certainly agree that the mechanic was wrong for not replacing the cap, rotor, and #3 spark plug.

I suppose I was saying that the copper plugs were just fine, and that there is a chance that it was just a loose connection (non necessarily the mech fault) and I got caught up with complaining about my work and school.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: I certainly agree that the mechanic was wrong for not replacing the cap, rotor, and #3 spark plug. I suppose I was saying that the copper plugs were just fine, and that there is a chance that it was just a loose connection (non necessarily the mech fault) and I got caught up with complaining about my work and school.

If you took your car in for a tune-up and it came with platinum plugs, how would you feel if they used cheap-o copper plugs and then told you it won't make a difference?

You'll make a great service manager, though. Even when you know the mechanic was at fault, you're still trying your best to make excuses for him.

First everyone need to calm down. You dont even know that a mechanic did the tune up. It could have been the old ladies son. Second you assume that it was the mechanic (if it was one) was being lazy, I have personally been told to only change one spark plug on a car and they requested the cheapest spark plug you can get. I know there are alot of "mechanics" out there that scam people but you act like that does not happen anywhere else. You should give people the benefit out the doubt. Not just assume "there a mechanic they just want to screw everyone" I have to agree with 4-mulaGT that i really doubt that it was the plugs being a 4.3 vortec motor i would almost bet anything it was the cap and rotor. Also it does not need platinum plugs it will run fine on normal plugs in the same heat range and if people on the blazer forum are having problems i can only assume that they should not be working on cars in the first place. Formula 88 you assume that the plugs were a cause of no start in the first place and thats why they were replaced, did you ever think that might not be the case? If everyone hate mechanics so much there’s an easy solution dont go to them or learn something about cars so when you do you can tell the difference between someone taking out there ass and someone who knows what there doing. Any good technician would be more then happy to answer and explain any question you may have.

[This message has been edited by pontiacman63383 (edited 01-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: If you took your car in for a tune-up and it came with platinum plugs, how would you feel if they used cheap-o copper plugs and then told you it won't make a difference?

Well I will be theoretical here since I wouldn't ever take my car in for service without an exact set of expectations.

I would say thank you and take my keys happily, as the service writer has cleared my doubt. I have no reason not to believe them, and chances are they gave me the option in the first place.

Cheap-o is a matter of opinion anyway, they may be inexpensive, but by the time you actually take advantage of the durability platinum offers, a new set of copper spark plugs would have a hotter spark. And thats assuming that the platinum had not chipped away either.

quote You'll make a great service manager, though. Even when you know the mechanic was at fault, you're still trying your best to make excuses for him.

Well to the customer I would certainly make excuses, you cannot tell the customer that the mechanic was at fault and still keep your job. However, afterwards I would promptly chew the technician a new one, and either fire him if it was a repeat offense, or let him know that he has one chance left.

The reason I originally posted was a knee jerk reaction to information I know to be false (you need platinum for a 96 blazer) Not only that but you guys were bashing mechanics with very little information to go on. For all you know her nephew could have put the plugs in and the no start caused by the engine rocking when parked.

The auto repair industry does have some problems, But it is nowhere near as shrewed as people (and ABC) would make you think. Every complaint is heard by 100 people (and usually that complaint is completely ridiculous) but when a good job is done not one soul knows about it, including the owner.

[This message has been edited by 4-mulaGT (edited 01-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: Well I will be theoretical here since I wouldn't ever take my car in for service without an exact set of expectations. I would say thank you and take my keys happily, as the service writer has cleared my doubt. I have no reason not to believe them, and chances are they gave me the option in the first place. Cheap-o is a matter of opinion anyway, they may be inexpensive, but by the time you actually take advantage of the durability platinum offers, a new set of copper spark plugs would have a hotter spark. And thats assuming that the platinum had not chipped away either.

That's a big steaming pile of BS. You'd go off at the service manager for having parts monkeys who don't use the correct parts for the job instead of skilled technicians like you.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: Well to the customer I would certainly make excuses, you cannot tell the customer that the mechanic was at fault and still keep your job.

And people wonder why customers don't trust mechanics? That one statement right there is enough for me to never want you or any shop you work at to ever touch anything I own because I can't trust you.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 01-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And people wonder why customers don't trust mechanics? That one statement right there is enough for me to never want you or any shop you work at to ever touch anything I own because I can't trust you.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! You cannot trust anyone.

Unless you spend an ungodly amount of money (yes more then you think) there is always a chance that you will be the unlucky one to get the shop primate. and if they mess up, you will probably be fed something to keep you happy until they can have a real mechanic fix it properly.

The difference between the good shop and the crappy one is what they do afterwards. Throw the monkey out the door, or keep him to mess up another car.

You cannot trust anyone, read whats above, its a trial and error process to find a competent technician. Most places will fix whats wrong with your car just fine but everyone screws up one and a while, I may deflect blame but I will always make sure the mechanic fixes the problem properly afterwards, even if I have to watch over his shoulder.

I don't believe I am communicating myself effectively to you, im sorry if you think I am a liar.

I got one for you Mule.

You have a 1990 ford F 150 with a 351 carbureted motor. At start up it revs high, so high it almost redlines. It is taken back to the dealer repeatedly, new truck.

What is the problem Technician?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

All I have managed to glean from this thread is

A) I will continue to work on my cars myself, so if its screwed up, its my fault, and

B) Platinums should work just fine in a DIS duke because there's no difference between regular and platinum plugs.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I got one for you Mule. You have a 1990 ford F 150 with a 351 carbureted motor. At start up it revs high, so high it almost redlines. It is taken back to the dealer repeatedly, new truck. What is the problem Technician? Steve

Well if your trying to be serious I have no idea because the truck is not in front of me.

But your probably not so im gonna say that the problem is that the dealership is an evil maniacal devilish organization of people who want nothing but to make sure your dis-satisfied with your purchase so you never ever come back there again.

Yes thats what it is, they are trying to screw you over.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: Well if your trying to be serious I have no idea because the truck is not in front of me. But your probably not so im gonna say that the problem is that the dealership is an evil maniacal devilish organization of people who want nothing but to make sure your dis-satisfied with your purchase so you never ever come back there again. Yes thats what it is, they are trying to screw you over.

No Mule I was just trying to prove a point that many here don’t get.

All the education in the world is not going to make a good mechanic, that’s right mechanic.

Technicians are a dime a dozen, they graduate every year from all those tech schools, they get jobs at dealerships because they have that sheep skin.

Yet they don’t have the most important thing.

Experience.

All you needed to know was in my post.

A stuck float in the carburetor. Most technicians have never even seen one, never mind worked on one. Carb that is.

Never underestimate experience.

By the way I figured that one out stoned at my buddies place back in 1990 and fixed it with a hammer tap on the top of the carb float bowl.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

ahh heh I didnt get what you were trying to say,

thats a different topic, of course all of us teenage grease monkeys think we know more then the 30 year master tech... im not talking about that guy, in talking about the 20 year experience monkey that takes 4 hours on a brake job, gives it to the customer with the e-brake shoe grinding huge groove in the rotor, and then takes another 5 hrs to replace the e-brake when she comes back.

I was gonna say, that should be easy as hell to fix why would you need to keep returning?

Jake my recent post was not meant to belittle you. It was simply to prove a point about you calling a mechanic a parts monkey.

This was a brand new truck that had been back to the dealer several times. Seen by different Technicians each time. Yet with all their collective education they could not find the problem. Because they didn’t have the Experience.

I like being called a mechanic, I am not a technician by any stretch. Yet I keep up with as much of the new technology as I can. As do most old school mechanics. They have to.

I have taken courses in fuel injection.
Also keep up with ABS systems as much as I need to, to keep my cars and trucks out of the shop.

Remember there are also one hell of a lot of mechanical systems in vehicles now day. If I remember right there were like 10,000 moving parts in the average car. Those are not technical, they are simple mechanical parts that move.

Don’t put a label on someone unless you are prepared to be labeled yourself as something you do not like.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I'm in the experience crowd's corner. The knowledge part is ongoing just to keep up. There are a lot of parts replacers today compared to yester year.
Back in the late 60's I took a work vehicle to the chrysler dealer because the ammeter hand, "not the worthless volt-meters used today", was bouncing around.

They took me in right away and allowed me to watch. Mechanic pulled the alternator and disected it on the bench. determined the armature was shot. Pulled a brand new one from stock along with some bearings and things and reassembled it all.

They actually knew how to fix things. Can you imagine trying to find an armature at a parts store today?

I mentioned my dislike for volt meters above. Dont know why they switched, other than the heavier gauge wire needed to run them.
They are a handy tool for example when you suspect your alternator is a problem you run the car down to Autozone and they hook up a gadget and tell you the output amps. You could of avoided that trip if ammeters were still used in the dash of cars today.

And Detroit goes even farther the wrong way and gives you a gauge with no volt readings on it, just a safe range. Same thing with the temp gauge. Most but not all show no numbers. Just a wide normal range. Talk about dumbing down the driver. Why not have both, a safe range and some calibration. In 1984 a Dodge mini-van could be ordered with standard gauges or the ones that really told you something. Go figure....

Spoon

4-mulaGT
may i suggest that you read, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

I had to rebuild the alternator for a "technician" once, because he didn't know how to do it.
I don't know of any "technicians" that have a brake cylinder hone in their toolbox.
I had to point out to a "technician" that since the starter motor was not bolted to the engine, it wasn't grounded and wasn't going to do anything when they turned the key.

the term "technician" makes me think of a parts changer.

but what do i know?
I'm just a parts guy.

He got new ones though, lol.

I took a minivan to a dealer to get a tune up because I just didnt have the time to screw with it. It had a little miss. Ive was a Pontiac V6 and they charged me $160 to replace one plug and cleaned the other 5. You would think for 1/2 hour of work for that price at least theyde put in 5 other new ones since they had them out anyway.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Because it looked like a real PITA to jack it up, support it on stands, and find all the bolts that hold the liner on. The only jack I have is the one I use for the Fiero, and I don't think it's rated for something as heavy as the Blazer. And the steering shaft was DIRECTLY in the way of the plug, so going in through there wouldn't guarantee success, either. Every repair I've had to do under the truck so far, I can just lay on my back and pull myself under, no jacking required.

The trick to doing the #3 is to use a swivel spark plug socket not a swivel on a socket. You can use a length of hose to go over the plug to remove and replace, loosen and tighten with a socket. You can also pry on the steering shaft enough to get it out but the only way to get at it is going through the wheel well, the clips are plastic for cats sake. And if your jack can't lift one wheel enough to get a stand under it, don't use that jack for anything.

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: The trick to doing the #3 is to use a swivel spark plug socket not a swivel on a socket. You can use a length of hose to go over the plug to remove and replace, loosen and tighten with a socket. You can also pry on the steering shaft enough to get it out but the only way to get at it is going through the wheel well, the clips are plastic for cats sake. And if your jack can't lift one wheel enough to get a stand under it, don't use that jack for anything.

I used the swivel spark plug socket to start it out (not a spark plug socket with a swivel attachment), but as I almost got it out, the end of the socket hit on the steering shaft (this is the socket by itself, no extension or ratchet attached to it). So I turned the plug back into the head until I had just enough clearance to get the swivel socket off it. Then I slipped a normal spark plug socket on it, and used a wrench on the end of it (has a 6-sided end I could get an open-end wrench on), and barely got it out. The rest came out with the swivel spark plug socket, 3 inch extension, and ratchet, maybe 5 minutes each between getting them out, gapping them, putting on the anti-sieze, and putting them in.

I never use the jack to support the vehicle itself, I jack it up and use 3-ton Craftsman jack stands. I use jack and stands that are rated for much more than the car weighs. The jack is rated for 4000 lbs, and I'm not sure how close to that the Blazer is. I use it with the Fiero because it weighs 3000 lbs tops, so it doesn't come close to maxing it out.

quote Originally posted by Spoon: I'm in the experience crowd's corner. The knowledge part is ongoing just to keep up. There are a lot of parts replacers today compared to yester year. Back in the late 60's I took a work vehicle to the chrysler dealer because the ammeter hand, "not the worthless volt-meters used today", was bouncing around. They took me in right away and allowed me to watch. Mechanic pulled the alternator and disected it on the bench. determined the armature was shot. Pulled a brand new one from stock along with some bearings and things and reassembled it all. They actually knew how to fix things. Can you imagine trying to find an armature at a parts store today? I mentioned my dislike for volt meters above. Dont know why they switched, other than the heavier gauge wire needed to run them. They are a handy tool for example when you suspect your alternator is a problem you run the car down to Autozone and they hook up a gadget and tell you the output amps. You could of avoided that trip if ammeters were still used in the dash of cars today. And Detroit goes even farther the wrong way and gives you a gauge with no volt readings on it, just a safe range. Same thing with the temp gauge. Most but not all show no numbers. Just a wide normal range. Talk about dumbing down the driver. Why not have both, a safe range and some calibration. In 1984 a Dodge mini-van could be ordered with standard gauges or the ones that really told you something. Go figure.... Spoon

Yeah but try taking a alternator off a late 80 to early 90s accord, and what if that's not the problem. There are other ways to diagnose a charging system, one way is to hook a scope to the charge wire set to low current amps and you see the lumps in the commutators. Another way is see how much A/C volts are present. And I'm not a fan of letting other people watch, if you want to learn go to school.