When a person talks about being a person who cares about right & wrong enough to peacefully stand up for themselves & others, and then turns around & violently calls someone rude names for not agreeing with the effectiveness of their methods, well, hmmmmm, something about that just don't really feel right.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-17-2009).]
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12:27 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
So what's your point, Ryan? Or protest was valueless? Should we have broken some laws to get attention?
Every protest has some value, even if it's just to say "look at us!"
But real change needs a catalyst. I'm not sure it can happen without breaking laws. The question is how deep do you believe? What you get out is directly proportional to what you put in. Anyone can walk a line. Courage is standing up for what you believe is right regardless of the consequences. Revolution begins with thousands/millions of courageous people.
Disclaimer: Obey all local, state and federal laws. I didn't write this. It was some crazy guy who stole my laptop.
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12:51 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24617 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
When a person talks about being a person who cares about right & wrong enough to peacefully stand up for themselves & others, and then turns around & violently calls someone rude names for not agreeing with the effectiveness of their methods, well, hmmmmm, something about that just don't really feel right.
I really just don't think you guys get it... Look, for the majority of "you guys", I can understand that you don't agree with it. The talking heads will tell you whatever they can to down-play and reduce any unrest in their own supporters with respect to the tea parties. So to continue arguing that here is probably pointless.
Lets leave it with this...
What Bush did in the last term of his presidency, run up a defecit (more so than what would have been even considered feasible for the current situation of the economy), start the bail-out ball rolling, and then for Obama to come on board and TRIPLE it... (yes, triple it in 3 months)
It's ridiculous... and regardless of what party you've chosen to support, or whatever the reasons why you label yourself a Democrat or a Republican, we must prevent this outrageous spending. I honestly don't think our country will EVER be able to recover... I think what we're seeing here, is the slow and painful road to the eventual collapse of the country's government as WE KNOW IT today. I really hope the majority of you can see this for what it is... it honestly is not THAT big of a deal to me who the president is at this point... I just want this excessive spending to stop. The Democrats complained to no end when Bush was spending money like a drunken sailor, and rightfully so. Now Obama is doing it, quite literally, three times worse than Bush did, and they're silent. How can you possibly support this? MAKE HIM STOP. I'm not asking you guys to support the Republican party, I'm not asking you to support any kind of movement that will get him kicked out of office, or even VOTED out of office... what I'm asking you guys to do, is ask your senators and congressmen and women to put a STOP to this excessive bailout plan, and the excessive budget. I just don't get you guys... how can you support these bail outs? The government is taking massive amounts of money from the tax payer and giving it to BIG CORPORATIONS that screwed up and caused many people to lose their homes?! This goes against anything and everything that the Democrat party believes in.
If I could snap my fingers right now... I would put President Bill Clinton back in the White House, and I would sigh with releif.
You guys are ****ing blind!!! What is WRONG with you people???
Every protest has some value, even if it's just to say "look at us!"
But real change needs a catalyst. I'm not sure it can happen without breaking laws. The question is how deep do you believe? What you get out is directly proportional to what you put in. Anyone can walk a line. Courage is standing up for what you believe is right regardless of the consequences. Revolution begins with thousands/millions of courageous people.
Disclaimer: Obey all local, state and federal laws. I didn't write this. It was some crazy guy who stole my laptop.
But...isn't one of the organizing and founding principles of this country that we can have a voice and affect change through peaceful means? Isn't that why they had a revolution back in the 1770s, drafted a Constitution and Bill of Rights, installed a reperesentative government, and so on? So we don't have to resort to violence, civil disobedience or otherwise breaking the law to be heard, represented and to affect change?
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01:21 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37287 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Jeremiah: I don't see the parallels between people living under a monarchy, unable to represent their concerns to an indifferent overseas empire and, in reprisal, dumping a commodity which they felt was unfairly being taxed to people that received mostly received a tax cut this year from a democratically elected congress that represents them in the country in which they live. The protesters in Boston had no representation. The protesters today DO have representation and it is commiserate with the sentimentality of how the American people who voted in record numbers last November. In short, it's a bunch of wackos crying over losing an election and power and abusing historical context to make it seem like we need a revolution (we had one. It was November 4th. You lost. We'll have another. Same date.)
Can anybody really be this stupid ?
quote
Originally posted by NEPTUNE: I don't see the parallels between people living under a monarchy, unable to represent their concerns to an indifferent overseas empire and, in reprisal, dumping a commodity which they felt was unfairly being taxed to people that received mostly received a tax cut this year from a democratically elected congress that represents them in the country in which they live. The protesters in Boston had no representation. The protesters today DO have representation and it is commiserate with the sentimentality of how the American people who voted in record numbers last November. In short, it's a bunch of wackos crying over losing an election and power and abusing historical context to make it seem like we need a revolution (we had one. It was November 4th. You lost. We'll have another. Same date.) Worth repeating, if only the crybabies would read it.
, C'mon, you guys are not stupid. If anything, you are the crybabies. Crying right now. About us doing something. Was there a show of displeasure during the Repusivecan rule ? Nope, just a bunch of whining. Do you really want for us to think that your are stupid ?
quote
I don't see the parallels between people living under a monarchy, unable to represent their concerns to an indifferent overseas empire and, in reprisal, dumping a commodity which they felt was unfairly being taxed .....
So what ? All that attended did. Are you just trying to discredit the effort or, are you really so clueless to see that something is up ? What would possess you to believe that those living under a monarchy are unable to represent their concerns ? Then, you talk about an indifferent overseas empire, ? Especially after crying for the last eight years that our government was indifferent to our concerns, . Newsflash ! It was not just tea which started a reprisal. That happened to be the the last straw. The Tea Parties are just a straw. A representation of concerns. To ignore or degrade them would be foolish. Which is what is happening.
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I don't see the parallels between people .... to people that received mostly received a tax cut this year from a democratically elected congress that represents them in the country in which they live.
Tax cut ? Are you really frikken crazy? We were in debt up to our eyeballs and we tripled it in in three months. How is a tax cut gonna pay for that ? Democratically elected congress which represents them ? Are you really frikken crazy? Congress has become a monarchy. This term reigned over by Pelosi. If they really represented the people, they would not have an 18% approval rating (including Dumocrats).
quote
The protesters in Boston had no representation. The protesters today DO have representation and it is commiserate with the sentimentality of how the American people who voted in record numbers last November.
Believe me, the protesters in Boston (actually, the New World) did have representation. His Majesty did have emissaries which interacted with the people. There were concessions made by the empire. The protesters today do not have representation. Do you feel that you were represented the last eight years ? You mentioned something about an indifferent empire ? The record voters last November hardly constitute a mandate. As they did not during the Bush terms.
quote
Originally posted by Jeremiah: In short, it's a bunch of wackos crying over losing an election and power and abusing historical context to make it seem like we need a revolution.
Abusing historical context? To make it seem like we need a revolution? Puhleese, . What you are seeing is a revolution. The historical context is there. You can see it if you do not wear blinders. A bunch of whackos ? That would be the same bunch of whackos which did indeed dump that tea back in 1873. They would be the same bunch of whackos which started this nation of which you claim to be proud to be a member of the club. Those would be the same bunch of whackos who also had to fight the mommy government opinion. See, back then, many wanted to be taken care of by Britian. Because they did not have the kahoonas to believe that they could do for themselves. Historical context ? The doers are doing.
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01:38 PM
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4545 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
Here is a case were history might repeat itself. Is this what we could be in for?
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In 1932 the top marginal tax rate was increased to 63% during the Great Depression and steadily increased, reaching 94% (on all income over $200,000) in 1945.
How much incentive do people have to work once the government takes more than half of their paycheck? I can easily see a high tax rate coming again in the near future. The bail out will have to be paid for somehow.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-17-2009).]
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04:00 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24617 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
How much incentive do people have to work once the government takes more than half of their paycheck? I can easily see a high tax rate coming again in the near future. The bail out will have to be paid for somehow.
The good news is, at least we know it failed and we eventually returned to capitalism...
I'm sure you've seen the piece aired by the commie news network where Susan Roesgen labelled the protest as being "anti-CNN" because they were "highly promoted by the right-wing conservative network Fox."
Hahaha lofl it turns out that she applied twice and was turned down twice for a job at the evil right-wing Fox network Some evidence that at least Fox has some minimum level of standards.
Boy, it is hard for me to remember a more selfish, nor a more short-sightedly stupid post.
Yeah, I can't believe what a great deal it is for you, either. But did you stop to think for one blessed minute WHY it is a GREAT DEAL for you?
You pay " a few hundred dollars" each year. Really? You get the same membership benefits I get and I had to pay over SIXTY THOUSAND dollars.
And yet you gloat about that. AMERICAN ears. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a blatant MOOCH. You are more than happy to let other americans pay TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars yearly to subsidize your part of the cost so you only have to pay "a few hundred dollars". And then you sit and gloat about what a great deal it is. And when someone that actually DOES have to pay for this great deal, and wants some relief from the spending orgy and the incredible tax burden of paying for your share of your great deal, then your comment is, "kwitcherbitchen, cause these are deaf, AMERICAN ears." And you call them a cry baby.
And you have no shame in that. You have no inner sense of pride of being a contributor, and no shame in being a leech.
Well, deaf ears or no, YOU ARE A SHAMELESS LEECH.
And Jeremiah, with your shameful, blatant, income redistribution attitude. Yeah, you are right. The tea party analogy isn't accurate and doesn't fit. But what do you care? You got your stimulus check. And besides. "I don't see anyone with any better idea." That is because you aren't objectively looking. They are out there. And they don't involve TRILLIONS of dollars of NON-CRISIS spending. And they don't involve essentially NATIONALIZING several major industries. And they don't involve a FUNCTIONAL dictatorship that STEALS people of the value of their money by a dictatorial governmental policy of just printing trillions of dollars of valueless money.
But really, it's ok. Because YOU got your stimulus check. Well, AND you don't have to pay for social security. Could you REALLY be that much of a fool? Because YOUR taxes to pay for all this spending is going to DWARF your stimulus check.
And your November elected buddies are just getting warmed up when it comes to CRISES they are going to find EXPENSIVE (non) "solutions" for. Well, that is your flaw in the first place. You are looking to GOVERNMENT, democrat or republican, to solve the "crises" (that aren't crises in the first place).
President Reagan got it right. Government IS the problem. But Jeremiah, you won't believe that. And Neptune, you don't WANT that. Because you want government to keep taking money from other people so you only have to "pay a few hundred buck."
And somehow you guys can sleep at night. Incredible.
I was going to type a reply to Neptune, but there is no way I could do a better job than this. One of the best posts I've read in a long time.
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03:24 AM
PFF
System Bot
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
When a person talks about being a person who cares about right & wrong enough to peacefully stand up for themselves & others, and then turns around & violently calls someone rude names for not agreeing with the effectiveness of their methods, well, hmmmmm, something about that just don't really feel right.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I really just don't think you guys get it... Look, for the majority of "you guys", I can understand that you don't agree with it. The talking heads will tell you whatever they can to down-play and reduce any unrest in their own supporters with respect to the tea parties. So to continue arguing that here is probably pointless.
Lets leave it with this...
What Bush did in the last term of his presidency, run up a defecit (more so than what would have been even considered feasible for the current situation of the economy), start the bail-out ball rolling, and then for Obama to come on board and TRIPLE it... (yes, triple it in 3 months)
It's ridiculous... and regardless of what party you've chosen to support, or whatever the reasons why you label yourself a Democrat or a Republican, we must prevent this outrageous spending. I honestly don't think our country will EVER be able to recover... I think what we're seeing here, is the slow and painful road to the eventual collapse of the country's government as WE KNOW IT today. I really hope the majority of you can see this for what it is... it honestly is not THAT big of a deal to me who the president is at this point... I just want this excessive spending to stop. The Democrats complained to no end when Bush was spending money like a drunken sailor, and rightfully so. Now Obama is doing it, quite literally, three times worse than Bush did, and they're silent. How can you possibly support this? MAKE HIM STOP. I'm not asking you guys to support the Republican party, I'm not asking you to support any kind of movement that will get him kicked out of office, or even VOTED out of office... what I'm asking you guys to do, is ask your senators and congressmen and women to put a STOP to this excessive bailout plan, and the excessive budget. I just don't get you guys... how can you support these bail outs? The government is taking massive amounts of money from the tax payer and giving it to BIG CORPORATIONS that screwed up and caused many people to lose their homes?! This goes against anything and everything that the Democrat party believes in.
If I could snap my fingers right now... I would put President Bill Clinton back in the White House, and I would sigh with releif.
You guys are ****ing blind!!! What is WRONG with you people???
Um, you quoted me, so I assume you are directing this primarily at me, which is strange, becouse I was only commenting on the name-calling in this coversation.
Look, I belong to no party. I have not seen a good president in quite some time, the last few, up to & including the present, being horrable.
I don't believe in all this spending. I don't believe in the redistribution of wealth. I don't believe in gun control. I don't believe in the Death Penalty. I don't believe in our acceptence of illeagal aliens. I don't believe in selling out American jobs. I don't believe in letting corporations get away not playing fair. I don't believe in quotas for anything. I don't believe in multiable wars in the wrong places. I don't believe in jerking the Consitution around.
I believe in a Free America running a fair game. But the future has not been very bright for quite some time, now.
In MY opinion, boil it all down, and here is our conundrum: For the USA to survive well into the immediate future, we are still going to have to depend on oil, like it or not. In this day & age, it powers our strength. The oil we need, and the deals we need to make to fuel our future, is being disruped by the enimies we are now engaged with. We need to clear them out, make deals & commitments, and assure that we are guarenteed the lions-share of the Worlds oil, well into the future.
I don't like it, it's not pretty, it's killing for oil, but it is the only way we are going to survive as a country against those that would see us fall. So that's what we gotta do, as ugly & greedy as it is.
Later on, we can get back to doing good things for ourselves and other countries. Later on, after we stabalize things, then we can reach out & fix stuff.
P.S. And for the record 82-T/A [At Work], I agree with your post. I do not support wasting the massive amounts of money we are wasting. Oh, and I believe NOTHING I see or hear, and I trust NO ONE 100%.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-18-2009).]
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04:05 AM
DRA Member
Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Boondawg: Oh, and I believe NOTHING I see or hear, and I trust NO ONE 100%.
That just hurts........ like way down deep.......... right here........ I just don't know what to say..........
------------------ Dealing with failure is easy: work hard to improve. Success is also easy to handle: you've solved the wrong problem, work hard to improve.
This TEA thing bothers Liberals a great deal, and for good reason. It's one thing for the nation to see conservative pundits on Fox attempting to make talking points--quite another to see everday people out on the streets protesting to get their point across. This is a page from the liberal playbook that is known to be very effective, and the liberals know the most important thing they have to do now, is to try to convince moderates that these TEA gatherings are just a few "rascist elites--paid for and organized by conservative media". That's going to be an uphill battle for them to accomplish, since it's 90%+ untrue. If this TEA protest gathers steam, and continues to be in front of the American public, regardless of which side of the media presents pics and video of it, it can spell trouble during upcoming elections--there is no such thing as bad publicity. Attempting to portray the protesters and organizers as mere rascists, after showing black speakers at the TEA events ain't gonna work in the minds of most intelligent veiwers.
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06:43 AM
FieroJam Member
Posts: 1118 From: Zephyrhills, FL Registered: Feb 2008
Originally posted by ryan.hess: Yeah, I'm sure the Boston Tea Party would have still been written in the history books if the colonists stood around holding signs like law abiding citizens.
Well it is obvious you don't really know much about the events leading to the Boston Tea Party. The Governor of Boston was one of the only dumb asses at the time to not return the tea to England for what ever his reasons and Samuel Adams organized a meeting to pass a resolution to get the captain of the ship to return to England without paying the duty which was unfairly being imposed by the English Parliament. but the stupid Governor of Boston would not let the ship leave without paying the duty so some 130 of the 7,000 in attendance of the meeting got tired of just talking and took it upon themselves to go destroy the tea. If you are going to bring up history to make a point try actually knowing the history behind an event.
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08:28 AM
FieroJam Member
Posts: 1118 From: Zephyrhills, FL Registered: Feb 2008
Originally posted by Pyrthian: I agree with those who say as a protest - this was weak but - what it DOES show is the organazational potentiol for a REAL protest. gotta walk before you can run. also - gotta remember - most of these folk are used to being on the other side of this stuff. and, will they actually "put out" when it comes time to do it "for real"?
So how exactly is around 350,000 people protesting across the country weak? Especially when it was done with no violence or arrests? Just wondering what you would consider a real protest.
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08:30 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by avengador1: The tea parties have people in California speaking some sense.
He ain't nothin, he ain't the people. He is part of the problem. What a fake representation of concern. That surfer dude is just trying to ride the wave.
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05:54 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
The tea parties have people in California speaking some sense.
Umm I only got through half of it before I had enough. I can't stand him for some reason. His smarmy friendliness and his facial movements/gestures give me the willies. Actually I think his voice makes me angry. I wanted to stick an ice cream cone up his nose.. Well I didn't like him. What was he saying again? I couldn't hear it over the alarm bells ringing that he is a liar and a cheat. I don't know if he is but the alarm bells were sounding.
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07:17 PM
Apr 19th, 2009
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
What's up with the Fox Clock tower as a backdrop too? My real question here is what really is wrong with his message? Should we not question our government's actions as it is our right to do so? Don't the people have the right to protest if their government is doing them wrong? Why should we and the next few generations foot the bailout? Throwing good money after bad is not a good idea.
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08:51 PM
Apr 20th, 2009
Wichita Member
Posts: 20688 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances..
Although the government wasn't stopping these Tea Parties and any of the leftist who demean the participates of these Tea Parties have every right to speak their opinion on it and the Government doesn't have to listen or care about it (as they obviously don't care).
As one of Obama's top advisers said about the Tea Parties as "misdirected and unhealthy" and are nothing more than "expressions".
There is one thing about leftist groups and individuals making bastardized claims against the Tea Parties and the participates of them. I have no problem with that. But for Executive Branch Government Officials to bastardize it? Should they be neutral on their opinions, especially publicly? Law makers can bicker about this all they want. But I would considered Axelrod the spokesperson for Obama, and if that is Obama's opinion, to publicly belittle peaceful protests is beyond me.
Notice how Bush and his administration said nothing about Cindy Sheehan and her small band of anti-war protesters, while they received the darling attention of the media for months on end.
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 04-20-2009).]
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12:21 AM
FieroJam Member
Posts: 1118 From: Zephyrhills, FL Registered: Feb 2008
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances..
Although the government wasn't stopping these Tea Parties and any of the leftist who demean the participates of these Tea Parties have every right to speak their opinion on it and the Government doesn't have to listen or care about it (as they obviously don't care).
As one of Obama's top advisers said about the Tea Parties as "misdirected and unhealthy" and are nothing more than "expressions".
There is one thing about leftist groups and individuals making bastardized claims against the Tea Parties and the participates of them. I have no problem with that. But for Executive Branch Government Officials to bastardize it? Should they be neutral on their opinions, especially publicly? Law makers can bicker about this all they want. But I would considered Axelrod the spokesperson for Obama, and if that is Obama's opinion, to publicly belittle peaceful protests is beyond me.
Notice how Bush and his administration said nothing about Cindy Sheehan and her small band of anti-war protesters, while they received the darling attention of the media for months on end.
Well what kind of response did you expect from the Executive branch? These are the same people who claim to be bi-partisan as long as you whole heartily agree with everything they say or do anyone voicing an opposing opinion or suggestion is just promoting partisan rhetoric.
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07:16 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37287 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
My wife and I went to a 'TEA Party' Saturday morning in Battle Creek, Michigan. Probably 400 or so citizens of all ages and enthicities were there to listen to local and state elected representatives speak about current issues in the local, state and federal government. It was very friendly, civilized and informative. The only issue was that a group of people around the fringe tried to drown out the speakers by chanting "Obama, Obama, Obama".
Interesting things.....
Jackson Michigan has no representation in the State Senate, as the elected State Senator moved to another position, and the Governor refuses to authorize a special election because of cost, however, she did authorize a special election in another district. Difference? The other district is a Democratic stronghold, whereas the Jackson area had Republican representation.
The Michigan Assembly spends $500,000 a day more than it takes in.
Calhoun County gets a total of $135,000 of the $8,000,000,000 Stimulus money for Michigan. It is going to be used to plant flowers along the highway, the vote was 134 -1 for approval. Meanwhile, our secondary and county roads are so rutted and potholed that I have to drive miles out of the way to get most places if I take one of my Fieros or even my Cadillac. (14 year-old Caddy - it's paid for).
There is a push to change the tax code in Michigan (we have an oppresive tax structure that is driving business out of the state, and discourages out-of-state investment) to what is called the "Fair Tax". I had heard of the Fair Tax, but had not investigated it very well. While at the gathering, a speaker spoke about it and passed out some very detailed and interesting information about the Fair Tax. I encourage you to read about it (it would be a good option nation-wide) and decide for yourselves.
If you are concerned about the path our Governments are taking us down, please take the time to attend one of these rallies, and see what they are about, rather than sitting back and doing nothing.
Obama had one thing right in his campaign - CHANGE STARTS AT THE BOTTOM AND WORKS IT'S WAY UP.
Now it is our turn.
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12:52 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37287 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by olejoedad: Jackson Michigan has no representation in the State Senate, as the elected State Senator moved to another position, and the Governor refuses to authorize a special election because of cost, however, she did authorize a special election in another district. Difference? The other district is a Democratic stronghold, whereas the Jackson area had Republican representation.
I would like to know more about this.
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad: My wife and I went to a 'TEA Party' Saturday morning in Battle Creek, Michigan.
Yes, Wednesday was not a good time as many folks were at work. There are Tea parties still.
quote
Originally posted by Jeremiah: In short, it's a bunch of wackos crying over losing an election and power and abusing historical context .....
Next, you will be crying about how we are disparaging the historical context of Independence Day. The indifference of some politicians and the liberal media has thrown gas on the flame. As with the clueless hacks .....
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad: The only issue was that a group of people around the fringe tried to drown out the speakers by chanting "Obama, Obama, Obama".
, C'mon, you guys are not stupid. If anything, you are the crybabies. Crying right now. About us doing something. Was there a show of displeasure during the Repusivecan rule ? Nope, just a bunch of whining. Do you really want for us to think that your are stupid ?
? Especially after crying for the last eight years that our government was indifferent to our concerns, 
Some evidence that at least Fox has some minimum level of standards. 
