If you say so Phranc, it must be true.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: If you say so Phranc, it must be true.

No its true because its true. All one has to do is look at the facts. You aren't willing to that. You ignore the facts. You do that a lot. Its safe for you to do that. Some people enjoy being ignorant. You are one of those people.

I guess it needs to be said yet again...

Phuc off, Phranc.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I guess it needs to be said yet again... Phuc off, Phranc.

Awww you're foaming patty. I know you hate when I tell you the truth. Its ok. Ignorant people tend to react like that. More so when they are the willing ignorant who ignore facts like you do.

One last time before I go outside to enjoy the sunny day...

Phuc off, Phranc.

once again - what are these mighty facts? they have been lost in the bickering.

a few charts on who got purged out of the nazi party
http://forum.axishistory.co...=45&t=25010&start=30

note the axisHISTORY forum is not a neo-nazi site just a HISTORY of WW2 site

second chart shows few of the leftwing nazi's still in power in 1942

''The Night of the Long Knives cannot be understood without an understanding of the factions within the NSDAP''

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: once again - what are these mighty facts? they have been lost in the bickering.

Then reread the thread. Facts have been presented over and over. I even linked to a page full of facts. I'd link to it again but I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to find it yourself.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Then reread the thread. Facts have been presented over and over. I even linked to a page full of facts. I'd link to it again but I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to find it yourself.

well, we have:
NAZI = national socialists, and because Hitler said so.

I agree completely that the pre WW2 Nazi's & Hitler were left
they had to be, to drive such a small nation into a power to threaten the world.

but once the war was underway - were they still left? is slavery a left or right policy? most would place it on the side of conservative/right. one of the oldest policies known to man.

quote Originally posted by ray b: a few charts on who got purged out of the nazi party http://forum.axishistory.co...=45&t=25010&start=30 note the axisHISTORY forum is not a neo-nazi site just a HISTORY of WW2 site second chart shows few of the leftwing nazi's still in power in 1942 ''The Night of the Long Knives cannot be understood without an understanding of the factions within the NSDAP''

LOL
Look at the National Socialist column under racist in the first chart. "Karl Rover". Play a little "Twilight Zone" music
Was that anyone we knows Dad

funny how the rightwing here limits their own numbers to their own definition of true believers
calling others RINO's ect
and their poster boy BuSh2 after proven failures is no neo-conn according to them NOW

and we see the very same tactic used to try [and FAIL]
to move hitler and the nazi's out of the rightwing camp

even if almost every scholar places all the fascists on the very far end of the rightwing
but PHd's are eazy for them to discount
as any PHd must be a liberal and there for a fool
in the small mindset of our rightwing camp
so they feel free to counter history books with blogs
and give the blogs more weight IF AND ONLY IF written by co-believers

they pick and chose facts to fit their dogma
and count words more important then actions
and never will see the BIG PICTURE
but love the BIG LIE just as much as hitler did

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Niether. They are not valid to either.

quote Originally posted by ray b: funny how the rightwing here limits their own numbers to their own definition of true believers calling others RINO's ect and their poster boy BuSh2 after proven failures is no neo-conn according to them NOW and we see the very same tactic used to try [and FAIL] to move hitler and the nazi's out of the rightwing camp even if almost every scholar places all the fascists on the very far end of the rightwing but PHd's are eazy for them to discount as any PHd must be a liberal and there for a fool in the small mindset of our rightwing camp so they feel free to counter history books with blogs and give the blogs more weight IF AND ONLY IF written by co-believers they pick and chose facts to fit their dogma and count words more important then actions and never will see the BIG PICTURE but love the BIG LIE just as much as hitler did

BIG LIE !!!!!!! The only big lie here is that you know what you are talking about.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: but once the war was underway - were they still left? is slavery a left or right policy? most would place it on the side of conservative/right. one of the oldest policies known to man.

Slavery in a technical sense would be neither, slavery being forcing people to work by fear and physical force, with absolutely nothing given to said workers.

However Marxists push the concept that a working capitalism is in essence slavery, put simply "you work all day while the boss sits on his duff and counts his money that you made for him" thereby, he is "taking" something from you that you would normally have.

They drive a wedge between people, specifically forcing a class split that doesn't exist in a true capitalism. When in all reality, every single man and woman has the free and open chance to earn that position, or to build that wealth themselves. Which is impossible under slavery, in which a person effectively owns a worker.

quote Originally posted by ray b: funny how the rightwing here limits their own numbers to their own definition of true believers calling others RINO's ect and their poster boy BuSh2 after proven failures is no neo-conn according to them NOW and we see the very same tactic used to try [and FAIL] to move hitler and the nazi's out of the rightwing camp even if almost every scholar places all the fascists on the very far end of the rightwing but PHd's are eazy for them to discount as any PHd must be a liberal and there for a fool in the small mindset of our rightwing camp so they feel free to counter history books with blogs and give the blogs more weight IF AND ONLY IF written by co-believers they pick and chose facts to fit their dogma and count words more important then actions and never will see the BIG PICTURE but love the BIG LIE just as much as hitler did

Ray is STILL stuck on the pictures.

He references a chart that shows only SIX names of victims of the Rohm-Putsch. He sees "National Socialist" on the left side of the chart and "Right Opportunist" on the right side of the chart and VOILA!, Ray thinks he has his "evidence".

Ray doesn't bother with the tedious task of actually READING the forum and the challenges to Mr. Schultz's theory.

" Although I agree with that statement I am puzzled by the chart which accompanied it, in that several of the individuals there listed whose background I am familiar with - and perhaps others which I know little or nothing of - were never members of the NSDAP. E.G. Ernst Jünger, Ernst von Salomon, Kurt von Schliecher, Oswald Spengler to name a few."

"If you want to resume (lowest common denominator) all the purged ones in a common pool, how do you define it ? Hitler cut only a well defined branch of the party not under his direct control: therefore
Lowest Common Denominator= Popular Anti-bourgeoise National Socialist branch. Too many cathegories in your drawing. Watch my own resume. About Heinrich Himmler among "State capitalists" I have more than a doubt because he was the most leftist of the whole Party and the term "capitalist" joint to an ex-bolshevick like he was is a bit unappropriate."

Mr. Schultz even admits his ignorance:

"Himmler an ex-Bolshevik? I had no idea. Can you elaborate? As I have mentioned, my primary interest is in the Left-Wing of the NSDAP and in the "Third Way" thinkers (Spengler, Möller ven den Bruck, Zeher) and so I am not as well informed about the other factions of the party. I am aware that Himmler had ties to both Strasser and Darré, but I have always thought he behaved like a state capitalist. Please set me straight."

Mr. Schultz, the AUTHOR of the charts Ray uses as his "left-right evidence" even states clearly that Hitler and the core of the Nazi Party was NEITHER "left" or "right":

"Goebbels wasn't purged because he was a thorogoing opportunist who was rabidly anti-Semitic. Hitler could work with anti-Semites no matter what political stripe and this is one more proof that his real program was neither right nor left but one of genocide,"

Ray never bothered to question why there were only SIX names of victims on Mr. Schultz's first of two charts, or why many of those who are not listed as victims mysteriously disappear from Mr. Schultz's 2nd chart when history shows evidence of them alive and active in the NSDAP long after 1942

Could it be that Ray couldn't be bothered by READING the discussion or be bothered with any argument *against* Mr. Schultz and his theory????

For reference here is a LIST of the victims of the Rohm-Putsch:

Killed

Otto Ballerstadt (Diplomat, Ingenieur)

Fritz Beck (Director)

Karl Belding (SA Standartenführer)

Erwald Kuppel Bergmann (Born 5 February 1905, KPD, executed in Landeshut 1 July 1934)

Veit Ulrich von Beulwitz (SA Sturmführer. Executed in Lichterfelde 1 July 1934)

Alois Bittman (SA-Scharführer)

Franz Blasner (SA-Truppführer)

Herbert von Bose (Franz von Papen's Secretary. Gunned down at his desk in the Vice-Chancellery, 30 June 1934)

Ferdinand von Bredow (Major General in Reichswehr, associate of von Schleicher. Arrested 30 June 1934, arrived at Lichterfelde with bullet hole in his head, 2 July)

A. Charig (Executed in Hirschberg 1 July 1934)

? von der Decken

Georg von Detten (SA-Gruppenführer, SA political chief, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Executed at 2:30 AM, 1 July 1934 at Berlin-Lichterfelde)

? Ender-Schulen (SA-Sturmbannführer)

Kurt Engelhardt (Born 1 May 1891, SA-Sturmbannführer. Executed in Breslau 30 June 1934)

Werner Engels (SA-Sturmbannführer, acting Police President of Breslau. Driven out to the woods by SS troopers and killed with a shot-gun)

? Enkel (SA–Standartenführer)

Karl Ernst (Born 1904, Freikorps Roßbach, ex-hotel doorman, homosexual protegé of Paul Röhrbein + Ernst Röhm, SA Gruppenführer, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Arrested on the dock at Bremen (where he was preparing to leave for Maderia on honeymoon) 30 June 1934. Flown to Berlin where he was shot by Leibstandarte-SS firing squad at Lichterfelde. Last words: “Heil Hitler!”)

Ernst Martin Ewald (Born 19 January 1900, Leiter der ND Gau Sachsen. Executed in Dresden 1 July 1934)

Hans Joachim von Falkenhausen (Born 15 October 1897 in Brieg, SA-Oberführer. Executed at 2AM, 2 July 1934 at Berlin-Lichterfelde))

Gustav Fink (SS Mann)

Dr. Walter Förster (A Hirschberg lawyer who had taken part in legal proceedings against National Socialists. Executed in Hirschberg 1 July 1934)

? Gehrt (SA–Sturmbannführer)

Fritz Gerlich (1883-1934, anti-Nazi Catholic journalist, arrested 9 March 1933, killed at Dachau 1 July 1934)

Daniel Gerth (SA-Obersturmführer, member of staff SA Gruf Ernst. executed at Lichterfelde on 1 July 1934)

Dr. Alexander Glaser (Born 1 July 1884. Executed in Munich 30 June 1934)

Freiherr von Guttenberg

Dr. Haber

Hans Hayn (Born 7 August 1896 in Liegnitz, freikorpskämpfer, Black Reichswehr, Fehmemord, SA-Gruppenführer. NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Shot by SS firing squad in Stadelheim Prison, 30 June 1934)

? Heck (SA–Standartenführer)

Edmund Heines (Born 1897, WW1 Officer, Freikorps Roßbach, Fehmemord, protegé of Gerhard Roßbach + Ernst Röhm, expelled from the SA in 1927 for notorious homosexuality, reïnstated by Röhm as SA-Obergruppenführer in charge of Silesia 1931, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Shot while in bed with his chauffeur and Lustknabe at Bad Wiesse, 30 June 1934)

Oskar Heines (Brother of Edmund, born 3 February 1903, SA-Obersturmbannführer. Hearing of the attempted “Putsch” he turned himself in to Gestapo headquarters in Breslau, 30 June 1934. Executed immediately)

Robert Heiser (Born 28 November 1904, Reh Ju. KPD,. Executed in Landeshut 1 July 1934)

Hans Peter von Heydebreck (Born 1 July 1889 in Koslin/Pommern, SA-Gruppenführer, NSDAP Reichstag deputy, the “Hero of Annaberg.” Shot by SS firing squad in Stadelheim Prison, 30 June 1934)

Anton Freiherr von Hohberg unt Buchwald (SS Reiter Und OberTruppführerührer. Shot in the smoking room of his estate by SS troopers on order of his rival Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski)

Edgar Julius Jung (Born 1894, DVP, Herrenklub, Journalist, Speech writer for von Papen. Shot in the Lichterfelde Barracks ? 30 June 1934)

Gustav Ritter von Kahr (Born 1862, Staatskommissar for Bavaria at the time of the Beer Hall Putsch. Abducted in Munich 30 June 1934, hacked to death with axes and thrown into a swamp near Dachau)

? Kamphausen (Waldenberg Municipal Engineer, Murdered for being un-cooperative about building licenses. Killed in SS Abschnitt VI)

Eugen von Kessel (Hauptman Polizei)

? Kirschbaum

Dr. Erich Klausener (Head of Preusischen Ministerie Polizei, Center Party, Catholic Action. Shot by SS-Hauptsturmführer Kurt Gildisch in his office 30 June 1934. Left to bleed to death, he managed to telephone for a priest, but the SS men wouldn’t allow the priest to enter and give Klaussener the Last Rites of the Church)

Willi Klemm (Born 9 March 1892 in Aaken, SA-Brigadeführer in Berlin. Executed 1 July 1934 by SS firing squad in Berlin-Lichterfelde)

Hans Karl Koch (Born 17 October 1897 in Potsdam, SA-Brigadeführer. Executed 1 July 1934 by SS firing squad in Berlin-Lichterfelde)

Heinrich Konig (SA-Oberscharführer)

Ewald Koppel (communist, executed at Landeshut in Silesia 1 Juoly 1934)

? Krause (SA-Sturmbannführer ? Executed in Lichterfelde 1 July 1934)

Fritz Ritter von Kraußer (Born 29 April 1888 in Nürnberg, cavalry officer, Freikorps Epp, SA-Obergruppenführer, protege of Röhm, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Shot 30 June 1934 at Berlin-Lichterfelde)

Friedrich Karl Laemmermann (Born 20 March 1914, HJ Führer. Executed in Plauen 1 July 1934)

Gotthard Langer (Born 1 December 1914, SA-OberTruppführer. Executed in Leopschutz 1 July 1934)

Dr. Lindemann (Executed in Glogau 1 July 1934)

Karl Lipinsky (Born 29 May 1896, SA Reiter-Sturmführer. Executed in Breslau 30 June 1934)

? Max (Röhm’s chauffeur and Lustknabe. Arrested at Bad Wiesse, 30 June 1934, and taken to Stadelheim Prison. On 1 July 1943, Hitler ordered that he be shot and then that Röhm be informed of this)

? Marcus (SA–Standartenführer)

Dr. Hermann Mattheis (Born 18 July 1893, SA-Standartenführer Executed in Ellwangen 1 July 1934)

Walter von Mohrenschildt (Born 6 June, 1910 Executed in Lichterfelde 1 July 1934)

? Muhlert

Edmund Neumeier (Born 8 August 1908, SA-Rottenführer. Executed in Dachau 1 July 1934)

Heinrich Nixdorf (Born 19 October 1890, SA Oberst Feldjagerei. Executed in Breslau 30 June 1934)

Dr. Ernst Oberfohren (Nationalist Reichstag Deputy. (Possibly spurious, not on official list))

Lambeardus Ostendorp (Born 20 May 1893, SA Oberst Feldjagerei. Executed in Dresden 1 July 1934)

Otto Pietrzok (Born 13 December 1908, SA-Sturmbannführer. Executed in Dresden 1 July 1934)

Fritz Pleines (Born 8 July 1906, SS Mann. Executed in Stettin 30 June 1934)

Adalbert Probst (Catholic youth leader in Munich, former Bavarian Landtag deputy)

Hans Ramshorn (SA-Brigadeführer, Police president of Gleiwitz, executed 30 June 1934 in Breslau)

Robert Reh (communist, executed at Landeshut in Silesia, 1 July 1934)

Ernst Röhm (Born in Munich on 28th November 1887. WW1 Captain, Ex-Reichswehr, Freikorps Epp, Frontbahn, “Du friends” with Hitler, Stabschef SA, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Arrested at Bad Wiesse, 30 June 1934, taken to cell 474 in the new cell block of Stadelheim Prison, München. After declining the option to commit suicide with a revolver, he was shot on 2 July by SS-Brigadeführer Theodor Eicke and/or SS-Sturmbannführer Michael Lippert on orders of Sepp Dietrich)

Paul Röhrbein (Frontbahn, homosexual associate of Röhm + Ernst)

Wilhelm Sander (Born 14 June 1895, SA Stabsführer. Executed in Lichterfeld 1 July 1934)

Emil Saasbach

Wilhelm Sander (SA–Brigadeführer, executed 1 July 1934)

Martin Schätzl (Painter, homosexual associate of Röhm, SA-Standartenführer)

Gaiseric Scherl (Born in Plauen 12 September 1912, SA Standartenführer, homosexual associate of Röhm, NS Studentenbund, Harvest Commando. Executed along with his wife at Landeshut 1 July 1934)

Erich Schieweck (Born in Breslau, SA-Obertruppführer. Killed Dachau 1 July 1934)

Elisabeth von Schleicher (Born 18 November 1893. Shot dead along with her husband, General von Schleicher, at their house at Neu-Babelsberg, 30 June 1934)

Kurt von Schleicher (Born 1882, WW1 Staff Officer, Reichswehr, Chancellor of Germany (1932-33). Shot dead in his house at Neu-Babelsberg (just outside Berlin) by six SS troopers, 30 June 1934, along with his wife)

Hans W. Schmidt (Born 19 April 1912, SA-Obersturmführer. Executed at Frankfurt- Berlin ? 2 July 1934)

Theodor Schmidt (Born Kolmar 23 May 1907, SA. Executed in Dachau 30 June 1934)

Dr. Wilhelm Schmidt (Music Critic. Mistaken For SA-Gruppenführer Schmid, arrested 30 June 1934 by the SS and killed while in custody. Hess later apologized for the mistake. This is the only documented case of such a mistake, though François-Poncet assures us that there were many)

Wilhelm Eduard Schmidt (SA-Gruppenführer ,Arrested in Munich, 30 June 1934, by Emil Maurice who shot him later that day)

August Schneidhüber (Born 8 May 1887 in Traunstein, SA-Obergruppenführer, Munich Police Chief, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Arrested in Munich, 30 June 1934, by Emil Maurice, shot at Stadelheim shortly thereafter)

Walter Schotte

Konrad Schragmüller (SA-Gruppenführer, NSDAP Reichstag deputy. Arrested and killed 30 June 1934)

Dr. Joachim Schroder (SA-Obersturmführer Born 2 April, 1897 Executed in Dresden 1 July 1934)

Max Walter Otto Schuldt (Born 3 May 1903, SA-Sturmführer. Executed in Dresden 1 July 1934)

Walter Schulz (Born 2 September 1897, 2 Stabschef der SA Gruppe Pommern. Executed on 1 July 1934)

Max Schulze (Born 21 October 1900, SA-Obersturmführer. Executed on 1 July 1934)

Hans Schweighardt (Born 12 July 1894, SA-Standartenführer. Executed in Dachau 1 July 1934)

Emil Sembach (Born 2 April 1891, SS Oberführer. Attached to SS headquarters in Silesia, he was expelled for embezzlement in February 1934 and had denounced Kurt Wittje's homosexuality to the Minister of Defence and to the Reichswehr. He then asked Frick for protection. Udo von Woyrsch, who had a personal vendetta against Sembach, discussed the case with Himmler in June and Sembach was arrested the afternoon of 30 June 1934 in Brieg (HQ of SS Oa Sudost) and taken to Oels. On 1 July Sembach was taken into the mountains and shot by a Commando under SS-Hauptsturmführer Paul Exner on Woyrsch' orders OR , drowned in a reservoir near Brieg)

Hans graf von Spreti–Weilbach (SA–Standartenführer, SA-Führer zur besonderen Verwendung, protegé of Röhm. Arrested at Bad Wiesse, 30 June 1934, taken to Stadelheim Prison and shot)

Oskar Stable (Freikorps Maercker, Freikorps Roßbach, NSDAP / NSDStB. (Possibly spurious, not on official list))

Father Bernhard Stempfle (Catholic priest, former associate of Hitler, found in a forest outside of Munich with a broken neck and three bullets in his heart. Probably killed because of what he knew about Geli Raubal)

Gregor Strasser (Born at Geisenfeld on 31 May 1892, WW1 officer, freikorpskämpfer, Ex-GDVG, Ex-NSFP, NW Arbeitsgemeinschaft, NSBO, Gauleiter of Niederbayern-Oberpfalz (1925-1929), Reichsorganisationsleiter (1929-1932). Arrested in his Berlin home 30 June 1934, taken to Prinz Albrechtstrasse Gestapo jail and shot in cell #16. Died of his wounds 2 July 1934. His death was officially announced as a “suicide.”)

Otto Stucken (Born 18 December 1896, SA Obersturmführer. Executed in Breslau 30 June 1934)

? Surk (SA–Standartenführer)

? Thomas (SA–Standartenführer)

Ottmar Toifl (Born 16 July 1898, SS Truppführer u Polizei kommissar. Friend of Daluege. Killed on Heydrich orders in Berlin 1 July 1934. His body was left in an allee of Grunewald)

Julius Uhl (SA-Standartenführer. Arrested at Bad Wiesse, 30 June 1934, taken to Stadelheim Prison and shot)

Dr. Erwin Villain (Born 3 November 1898, SA-Standartenarzt, SA medical officer. Arrested by SS-Hauptsturmführer Kurt Gildisch, executed in Lichterfelde 1 July 1934)

Max Vogel (Born 18 July 1908, SA-Obersturmführer. Executed in Dachau 1 July 1934)

Gerd Voss (Attorney to Strasser, shot dead during a search of his office)

Karl Eberhard von Wechmar (SA-Gruppenführer, executed 30 June 1934)

Udo von Woyrsch (Killed in Blood Purge after himself having ordred the execution of his rival, Emil Sembach)

Karl Zehnter (Proprietor of the “Nürnberger Bratwurstglöckl” restaurant, homosexual associate of Röhm and Heines)

Ernestine Zoref (Born 23 May 1896. Executed in Dachau 30 June 1934)

Jeanette Zweig (Executed in Hirschberg 1 July 1934)

Alex Zweig (Executed in Hirschberg 1 July 1934)



Survivors

Ernst Beissner (arrested in the Purge, expelled from the SA, though later was Kreisleiter and received the Golden Party Pin)

Leonhardt graf Du Moulin Eckart (Born Jan. 11, 1900, doctor at law, SA, homosexual associate of Röhm, chief of the Nazi Party's information service in the Brown House in 1932. Hid during Blood Purge, arrested afterwards and confined at Dachau. Indicted for procuring and for unnatural sexual intercourse on Oct. 21, 1934, having provided his apartment to Röhm for homosexual activities; acquitted)

Theodore Düsterberg (1895-1950, WW1 officer, Stahlhelm founder, DNVP, Arrested after Blood Purge)

Hermann Ehrhardt (1881-1971, WW1 naval officer, Freikorpsfürher, Kapp Putsch instigator. Upon arrival of the Gestapo, he fled to the woods of his estate with a couple of shot-guns, was later smuggled to Austria by friends, where he lived in exile even after the Anschluss. Erroneously listed among the dead by French Ambassador François-Poncet)

Paul Giesler (Born 15. Jun. 1895 in Siegen. arrested in the Purge, expelled from the SA, though later was Gauleiter of München-Oberbayern (1944 - 1945). Committed Suicide 8 May 1945, at Berchtesgaden, along with his wife)

Alexander Glaser (attorney to Kurt Lüdecke, arrested during Blood Purge)

Hans Elard Ludin (1905-1947, Reichswehr officer 1924-1930, under fortress arrest for Nazi political activities 1930-1931, SA-Obergruppenführer, Leader of SA Group Southwest 1933. Arrested during Blood Purge. Later Minister to Slovakia Jan 1941-1945, convicted by a Czech court in Slovakia, sentenced to death by firing squad. Executed at Bratislava (Pressburg) 9 December 1947)

Gerd Luetgebrune (Attorney to Röhm. Arrested during Blood Purge)

Georges Mappes (Arrested in the Purge, expelled from the SA, though later was NSDAP Orstgruppenleiter he received the Golden Party Pin)

Fritz von Papen (1879 - 1969, Ex-Reichswehr, Catholic Center Party, Herrenklub, Chancellor (1932-33), Vice Chancellor. Placed under house arrest for three days during Blood Purge)

Rolf Reiner (SS-Gruppenführer, arrested but not executed)

Gerhard Roßbach (1893 - 1967, WW1 Veteran, Decorated Officer, Freikorpsführer, Munich Putsch. Arrested during Blood Purge)

Dr. Alfons Sack (Attorney, homosexual associate of Röhm, Heines, and Ernst. Arrested during Blood Purge)

Karl Schreyer (SA-Gruppenführer. Arrested in Berlin and taken to Columbia House. About to be shot at 4AM, 2 July 1934, when the order to stop all executions came from the Führer)

Paul Schulz (Ex-Reichswehr Oberleutnant, associate of Strasser. Deeply anti-Socialist he strove to keep the socialists Strasser and Röhm separated by homophobic baiting Hitler and Strasser. Out of power following the Strasser/Schleicher incident, he had earned Hitler’s enmity by imprudent homophobic statements. Arrested June 30 in Berlin and driven out towards a lonely stretch of woods near Potsdam, he was shot while running away and played dead. When his captors went back to the car for something to wrap the body in, he bolted up and ran off in the woods. To escape dogs, he hid in the waters of the Nuthe stream. He made his way to the house of retired admiral Lübbert where he hid while an amnesty was negotiated with Hitler through a third party)

Gertrude Strasser (Wife of Otto Strasser. Arrested in Berlin, 30 June 1934 by the Gestapo, tortured and held for several weeks, while pending shipment to a concentration camp she escaped to Prague)

Otto Strasser (Born at Geisenfeld in 1897, WW1 officer, freikorpskämpfer, Ex-SPD, NW Arbeitsgemeinschaft, Ex-NSDAP, Black Front leader. Attempted assassination, 30 June 1934, in Vienna)

Gottfried Treviranus (1881-1971, politician, ex-DNVP, founder of People’s Conservative Union, minister in Brüning cabinet. Barely escaped arrest during Blood Purge, exiled to England)

Ernst Udet (1896-1941, SA Air Squadron Führer. Invited to Gauleiter Wagner’s banquet/trap on Munich 30 June 1934, he was the only one to escape from the banquet room, albeit dazed and with a large gash on his forehead, when he ran into Hitler, who told him to leave immediately)



Struck from the "death list" by Hermann Göring

? von Bülow (Under-secretary in the Foreign Ministry)

Rudolf Diels (1900 - 1957. WW1 veteran, lawyer, Prussian police from 1930, Gestapo investigator of the Reichstag fire, protegé of Göring, forced from office by Heydrich and Himmler. Prosecution witness at Nürnberg)

Frederick Wilhelm Viktor August Ernst Hohenzollern , Kronprinz von Preußen (1882 - 1951)
............................................................................

You're still a simpleton Ray, and if your self-evidential lack of study weren't enough to prove it, your continual meme filled posts are.

''Mr. Schultz, the AUTHOR of the charts Ray uses as his "left-right evidence" even states clearly that Hitler and the core of the Nazi Party was NEITHER "left" or "right":''

the full quote is

''Hitler’s sole program was genocide, thus he was fundamentally neither right nor left (though he ultimately allied himself with the right) but merely a racist. The proof of this is that no one supporting genocide was ever purged!''

while I donot totally agree that hitler was ONLY into genocide
it was one of his primary ideals along with conquest and to destroy the reds

BTW that forum is a history reseach forum
many different ideas are posted and commented on
I did read the whole 3 page thread

and who was an EX-commie is less important
then who they were allied with in 1934
and if hitler thought they were usefull to HIM

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: BTW that forum is a history reseach forum many different ideas are posted and commented on I did read the whole 3 page thread

If that is true Ray, then why were you dishonest regarding how you used it as a reference here?
As I recall you attempted to employ a similar "tactic" in political debate back during the presidential elections.
It didn't serve you any better then.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-21-2009).]

Ray you keep saying that most scholars will say that nazism was rightwing so why is it you have to use a forum to back you up? If all these scholars are out there you could easily drum up some of their work right?

I linked to page that is full of quotes and facts and links to even more information. Did you read it? Are you ignoring it?

I try to ignoring every post of yours
but some are so over the top WRONG
they just must be commented on

follow your links NO
I didnot as I have little desire to read rightwing BS
as I class that about as usefull as creationism
all one needs to know about that is it is WRONG
with no need of more study

BTW I have read a lot of posts over at the axis forum
almost all class the nazi and fascist as right wing
AND THAT IS THEIR SPECIAL AREA OF HISTORY
few there are fooled by the use of socialist in the name of the party
as so many here are

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: ''Mr. Schultz, the AUTHOR of the charts Ray uses as his "left-right evidence" even states clearly that Hitler and the core of the Nazi Party was NEITHER "left" or "right":'' the full quote is ''Hitler’s sole program was genocide, thus he was fundamentally neither right nor left (though he ultimately allied himself with the right) but merely a racist. The proof of this is that no one supporting genocide was ever purged!'' while I donot totally agree that hitler was ONLY into genocide it was one of his primary ideals along with conquest and to destroy the reds BTW that forum is a history reseach forum many different ideas are posted and commented on I did read the whole 3 page thread and who was an EX-commie is less important then who they were allied with in 1934 and if hitler thought they were usefull to HIM

Putting Communist on the column as victims, aye?

Well, they killed a lot more people than Hitler did and then they enslaved half of Europe as victor spoils.

I have no sympathy towards Nazi's, Hitler, Stalin or Communist. They were all bad people.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I try to ignoring every post of yours but some are so over the top WRONG they just must be commented on follow your links NO I didnot as I have little desire to read rightwing BS as I class that about as usefull as creationism all one needs to know about that is it is WRONG with no need of more study BTW I have read a lot of posts over at the axis forum almost all class the nazi and fascist as right wing AND THAT IS THEIR SPECIAL AREA OF HISTORY few there are fooled by the use of socialist in the name of the party as so many here are

I bet you are ignoring my posts. Its typical of you. Ignore facts. You call it BS but didn't even read it. You attacked the source because you can't attack the substance. You really aren't that smart ray. Not very credible either. Its funny you say all we need to know is it is wrong and no more study is needed. That is what Al Gore does in the global warming debate. He ignores the facts and says anything but what he believes is wrong and there is no need for debate because its settled.

The only ones here fooled is you ray and little patty. You use charts with out understanding them then get called out on your ignorance. You use forums to bolster your point and claim to have read it but then get called out when you get that wrong too. For a forum that is made up people and their "SPECIAL AREA OF HISTORY" they seem to get some simple things wrong. Maybe you did read it and simply don't understand what you read. That would add up to why you got it so wrong.

You are a joke ray. You lost this debate when you first posted. You don't have much in the way of understanding what is going on in history. You say its not about words but actions then ignore the actions. You don't have the honesty in you to really look at the facts. Others called you a useful tool. But you aren't useful to any one but those pointing you out as an example of some one who is so over his head he been schooled over an over again. I will give you credit for your entertainment value. It's kinda like watching a fish out of water but with out the loss of life.

BuSh2
NeOcOnNeD
BIG LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ray b:

all one needs to know about that is it is WRONG
with no need of more study

QUOTE]

That's called WILLFUL IGNORANCE, and it's speaks volumes about you.

quote Originally posted by randye: [QUOTE]Originally posted by ray b: all one needs to know about that is it is WRONG with no need of more study QUOTE] That's called WILLFUL IGNORANCE, and it's speaks volumes about you.

no it means I have seen their kind far too often for my liking
in 1964 I supported AuH2O
I was inside the GOP and saw the ideas and direction
and didnot like it

the neo-conned use of spin and out right lies
is something that doesnot need more study
once you see it in action you know what it is

as a student of the second world war
I know who was on the rightwing [wrong side] then
and who the commies were [ just as wrong BUT DIFFERENT]

and no modern rightwing spin is going to reorder the sides
to suit their whims and expect me to go along
sorry but I have a very low tolerance for spin and BS

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: sorry but I have a very low tolerance for spin and BS

So why do you do it so much?

quote Originally posted by ray b: no it means I have seen their kind far too often for my liking in 1964 I supported AuH2O I was inside the GOP and saw the ideas and direction and didnot like it the neo-conned use of spin and out right lies is something that doesnot need more study once you see it in action you know what it is as a student of the second world war I know who was on the rightwing [wrong side] then and who the commies were [ just as wrong BUT DIFFERENT] and no modern rightwing spin is going to reorder the sides to suit their whims and expect me to go along sorry but I have a very low tolerance for spin and BS

I can't blame you. Although you are clearly a leftist, and I can understand your dislike of right-wing and neo-conservatism.

But I wasn't born until the late 70's, and so I cannot relate to the right-wing spin machine and lies as you have image them.

But I can clearly see the spin, lies, fear mongering, political bantering on all sides, but by far, the left is the worse. Because I know what leftist policies and politicians bring and that is reduction of standard-of-living, reduction of personal freedoms & liberty, reduction of state/providential and local control, the creation of a politically elite class and the creation of the caste system within our society were the government dictates for whom gets preferential treatment.

Does that mean the right doesn't do the same or Republicans? No, it's just the left does it worse and more far reaching.

But regardless, we are never going to be happy with any government (unless you are totally out-of-touch, ignorant, and barring any mental handicap), because no matter the time and space, we can all see something wrong with it in one way or another, but we do the best we can and we try to not repeat past mistakes.

In that is probably were the differences lie. You believe that capitalism was a mistake. I know that socialism/communism is a mistake.

Do I believe in a little socialism? Yes I do. I believe the government should help people who cannot help themselves. But I firmly believe that a Federal Republic form of government is the best form to protect and never abridge our personal freedoms and liberty. That is a form of government that leftist greatly oppose or do not want, so that is why we are at odds.

Am I just speaking as an arm-chair opinion nobody on the Internet? Well, you decide. But I did earn a Bachelors degree in Political Science, so I have some knowledge on this subject.

quote Originally posted by ray b: as a student of the second world war I know who was on the rightwing [wrong side] then and who the commies were [ just as wrong BUT DIFFERENT] and no modern rightwing spin is going to reorder the sides to suit their whims and expect me to go along sorry but I have a very low tolerance for spin and BS

You claim to be a student of WWII history Ray?
Let me ask you a question then....
What prominently named American is credibly said to have financially aided the Nazi's prior to, and during, WWII ?

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-21-2009).]

henry ford the first
grand pa bush
IBM's leadership
some wall street bankers
many others

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: henry ford the first grand pa bush IBM's leadership some wall street bankers many others

Can you prove the P. Bush one. I'd like to see an actual paper trail.

quote Originally posted by ray b: henry ford the first grand pa bush IBM's leadership some wall street bankers many others

I said "credibly" Ray
I knew you would throw out the chestnut about Prescott Bush.
You did indeed get Henry Ford correct.
He received a medal from Hitler himself.

Henry Ford was a Democrat.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Can you prove the P. Bush one. I'd like to see an actual paper trail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/w...5/usa.secondworldwar

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html

http://www.informationclear...info/article3255.htm

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: http://www.guardian.co.uk/w...5/usa.secondworldwar http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html http://www.informationclear...info/article3255.htm

From the Guardian: George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

That says he worked for a bank that dealt with nazis.

Documents: Bush's Grandfather Directed Bank Tied to Man Who Funded Hitler
Thats the headline from FOX. Did you bother to actually read the report? In no way at all does it say P. Bush aided the nazis. What it says is that he headed the bank.

I didn't bother with the last one as its a hit piece.

So the two credible sources you offer don't actually say he aided the nazis just that he worked at a bank that was owned by Fritz Thyssen a hitler supporter.

You spun ray. You failed to make a paper trail. I thought you hated spin and BS. Yet here you are again doing it. You're dishonest to the end ray.

was director and share holder in the bank and other CORPs
that were nazi fronts and seized by our government for trading with the nazi's
that not quite the same as worked for the bank more like owned and controled
the actions of said bank for the nazi's

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: was director and share holder in the bank and other CORPs that were nazi fronts and seized by our government for trading with the nazi's that not quite the same as worked for the bank more like owned and controled the actions of said bank for the nazi's

You are spinning ray. They weren't nazi fronts. He didn't own and he didn't control. Thats spin ray. Stop spinning ray. Be honest ray. I know its going to be very hard for you but try. I thought you didn't like BS spin but here you are yet again spinning ray. Dishonest hypocrite is what you are ray.

Just throwing it out there...

Charles S. Maier served as Director of the Center for European Studies from 1994 to 2001 and fall 2006, and as Chair of the undergraduate Social Studies Program from 1991 to 1995, and served as acting Chair during 2007-08. Guest Directeur des Etudes at the Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris in sprin 2007. He published Among Empires in spring 2006 and is currently collaborating with William Kirby and Sugata Bose on a world history of the twentieth century and writing on the rise and decline of territoriality and on the history of the modern state. Maier currently teaches undergraduate courses on world history in the modern era, on World War I and World War II, on political trials, and together with Niall Ferguson, a two-semester sequence on international history. He supervises graduate reading fields in early modern and modern international history, modern social and economic history, and German and Italian history. He has directed dissertations on the comparative history of the welfare state, aspects of the Nazi Regime, and the history of the German Democratic Republic, among other topics, and encourages research in the era since 1945.


Email: csmaier@fas.harvard.edu

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: Slavery in a technical sense would be neither, slavery being forcing people to work by fear and physical force, with absolutely nothing given to said workers. However Marxists push the concept that a working capitalism is in essence slavery, put simply "you work all day while the boss sits on his duff and counts his money that you made for him" thereby, he is "taking" something from you that you would normally have. They drive a wedge between people, specifically forcing a class split that doesn't exist in a true capitalism. When in all reality, every single man and woman has the free and open chance to earn that position, or to build that wealth themselves. Which is impossible under slavery, in which a person effectively owns a worker.

slavery is one of the oldest hiarchies known to man
which puts it on "the right" or "conservative"
it was a liberal left wing extremist concept to abolish it in the USA.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: slavery is one of the oldest hiarchies known to man which puts it on "the right" or "conservative" it was a liberal left wing extremist concept to abolish it in the USA.

You need to get on the "short bus" with Ray.

quote Originally posted by randye: You need to get on the "short bus" with Ray.

lol - really bugs ya, eh?

hey - Taliban is right wing conservative also - heck - right wing religious conservatives
yes, lefties got Hitler & the Nazis, and Jim Jones

really shows ya - right & left folk are MANIACS. and the endless cause of misery worldwide.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - really bugs ya, eh?

Not as much "bugs" me as gives me a sense of despair that the general level of education is so low that there are those like yourself that would make the wild anthropological and modern political connections that you do.
After all the foregoing and all the 3rd party references, (as opposed to opinion or speculation), offered in this discussion, particularly demonstrating that it is most generally social and economic axis that comprise concepts of political spectra with regard to post modern politics, you conclude without so much as shred of supporting evidence that a THEOCRACY is "right wing", (Taliban)
I have offered an abundance of evidence that political scientists hold the extremes of economic and social focus on the state or individual to be dialectical to an understanding of the array of political ideology, and, again without a solitary shred of supporting evidence, you postulate that slavery, inarguably an extreme of state control over the individual, is somehow "right wing"..
Need I reiterate that the concept of "right" and "left" politics was a construct arising from the post revolutionary French government?
Perhaps you would deign then to offer evidence of how the ancient Egyptian state, clearly a Monarchistic Theocracy, (Pharoh as "God"), was somehow "right wing" in it's practice of slavery?
Since you have come to the conclusion that Hitler and the NSDAP were "left" aren't you then burdened with an explanation of their documented practice of slavery via the concentration camps?

It should be most entertaining to watch you attempt to make that ideological pole vault before you board the "short bus".

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-22-2009).]