Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I've always been COMPLETELY against the legalization of marijuana. Anyone that tries to tout it's medical benefits is just a complete idiot because the argument works in the same way as saying that cutting off your testicals prevents testicular cancer. However, I've had an epiphony...
It occured to me that honestly the overwhelming vast majority of pot heads are liberals. Yes, this is true...
With that said, why would I WANT to save them from self inflicted misfortune???
Pot smoking breeds apathy, and if it will keep these morons from going to the polls because they are too lazy, then I am in COMPLETE support of legalization.
Actually it really does have legitimate medical use. I use to not think so, but after looking into it, its true. What do you think Vicodin, hydrocodone, and other pain killers are made from? their opiates, aka OPIUM. So, its ok to make painkillers from one form of narcotic, while the other form of narcotic is banned? There's no rhyme or reason to this other then the irrational stigma mainstream society has attached to marijuana. I use to think JUST like you, then I dealt with REAL drugs on the streets and the people who use them. Weed is like going after people who drink spiked ginger ale when the real problem is hard liqueur.
Being a Police Officer really opened my eyes to truth of how "harmful" marijuana is. Does is create apathy? in some people, but that's no more dangerous then alcohol creating negligence. Again, there is NOT a single effect of marijuana that you can show is worse then that of smoking or drinking alcohol. I have never had to arrest a pot head for beating his old ladies face in....ever. Matter of fact, I never have arrested ANYONE because they were committing a crime that was fueled by marijuana or being high. Almost all arrest for marijuana come as a secondary charge, i.e. people get stopped, searched, and then weed is discovered.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 03-20-2010).]
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01:31 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Actually it really does have legitimate medical use. I use to not think so, but after looking into it, its true. What do you think Vicodin, hydrocodone, and other pain killers are made from? their opiates, aka OPIUM. So, its ok to make painkillers from one form of narcotic, while the other form of narcotic is banned?
Dronabinol is a THC based synthetic medication available to the public with a perscription.
They do make THC based medication, however it takes a hour to be effective where smoking takes minutes. The same could be said for opiates aswell though.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 03-20-2010).]
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04:23 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Opening Pandora's Box, huh? Are we to assume that drug enforcement will be handed over to the I.R.S.? Let's see, it would need to be regulated therefore those bungling peoples in Congress will to enact new laws- now how much is that going to cost the tax payers? If you tax the heck out of marijuana- people will find cheaper ways of growing it and not report to the IRS as "income." Adding to the problem- more illegal’s here in America.
I can foresee illegal’s working under the table (just like they do now) not paying taxes, skimming from the harvest and reselling it for a cheaper price than at the liquor store. Expect an increase in illegal’s coming over the border to work in the fields.
What about competition? As for those don't want to pay for a "joint" at the local grocery store- they'll grow there own weed in the back yard. The backs weed growing would cause more problems for you know people are lazy and would therefore steal from their neighbor. That would lead to harvesting inside their homes (as some do now). Break-ins would become common.
Okay, kids will be kids, right? Why not smoke a joint at home with the kids. Jerry Springer and friends will have a field day and more reality show popping up every day. (As-is the case for cigarettes). Kids are going to do it. As the kids grow up- there's the problem with education. As I've personally seen with my very eyes- those who are heavy pot-heads don't lead productive life. On the other hand- I’ve seen those whom use it occasionally and are productive. Maybe that's a fear of being caught that lead to them smoking it on occasions.
What about the neighborhoods? In the low income areas you will see the same amount of marijuana/liquor stores popping up. Yes. The well-to-do neighborhoods will sell in upscale establishments, but you won't see them on every street corner. The same case for those who are alcoholics- you'll have marijuana-holics, but more in the poorest areas. What about businesses? People laying in the streets, on the side walks and hindering customers? Are they going to call the police for being under the influence?
Driving? You know people will start smoking it freely during driving. It'll be a free for all Cheech and Chong! Therefore the cost of having insurance will rise due in part to more drivers using marijuana and causing wreaks. If you can't solve the drunk driver issues- how on earth will you solve marijuana drivers?
The IRS. Violations that were used against major crime rings against boot-leg runners will also apply for those selling marijuana. Many companies and individuals will not report all income and therefore will be punished and put into jail.
The Hospitals. Is ObamaCare going to pay for Johnny's drug addiction? As we've already experiencing- people using multiple combinations of drugs, prescriptions, and a host of other items in their system already.
The Work force. Do you really want to work with someone who smokes 24/7 and then coming to work? What types of drug screening tests are to be implemented? Do you want somebody flying a plane, driving a bus, or a train who smoked 7-hrs ago? Do you want a doctor performing an operation on you and he just smoked a big one 6-hrs ago? Or what about an officer who just smoked a big one and is now is pulling you over for a loud exhaust? Is his/her judgment impaired?
Last, but not least- Mexico. Americans will grow tired of the normal marijuana and opt for stronger drugs. This is were Mexico will make a “killing” since cocaine it will become the better drug of choice.
Opening Pandora's Box, huh? Are we to assume that drug enforcement will be handed over to the I.R.S.? Let's see, it would need to be regulated therefore those bungling peoples in Congress will to enact new laws- now how much is that going to cost the tax payers? If you tax the heck out of marijuana- people will find cheaper ways of growing it and not report to the IRS as "income." Adding to the problem- more illegal’s here in America.
I can foresee illegal’s working under the table (just like they do now) not paying taxes, skimming from the harvest and reselling it for a cheaper price than at the liquor store. Expect an increase in illegal’s coming over the border to work in the fields.
What about competition? As for those don't want to pay for a "joint" at the local grocery store- they'll grow there own weed in the back yard. The backs weed growing would cause more problems for you know people are lazy and would therefore steal from their neighbor. That would lead to harvesting inside their homes (as some do now). Break-ins would become common.
Okay, kids will be kids, right? Why not smoke a joint at home with the kids. Jerry Springer and friends will have a field day and more reality show popping up every day. (As-is the case for cigarettes). Kids are going to do it. As the kids grow up- there's the problem with education. As I've personally seen with my very eyes- those who are heavy pot-heads don't lead productive life. On the other hand- I’ve seen those whom use it occasionally and are productive. Maybe that's a fear of being caught that lead to them smoking it on occasions.
What about the neighborhoods? In the low income areas you will see the same amount of marijuana/liquor stores popping up. Yes. The well-to-do neighborhoods will sell in upscale establishments, but you won't see them on every street corner. The same case for those who are alcoholics- you'll have marijuana-holics, but more in the poorest areas. What about businesses? People laying in the streets, on the side walks and hindering customers? Are they going to call the police for being under the influence?
Driving? You know people will start smoking it freely during driving. It'll be a free for all Cheech and Chong! Therefore the cost of having insurance will rise due in part to more drivers using marijuana and causing wreaks. If you can't solve the drunk driver issues- how on earth will you solve marijuana drivers?
The IRS. Violations that were used against major crime rings against boot-leg runners will also apply for those selling marijuana. Many companies and individuals will not report all income and therefore will be punished and put into jail.
The Hospitals. Is ObamaCare going to pay for Johnny's drug addiction? As we've already experiencing- people using multiple combinations of drugs, prescriptions, and a host of other items in their system already.
The Work force. Do you really want to work with someone who smokes 24/7 and then coming to work? What types of drug screening tests are to be implemented? Do you want somebody flying a plane, driving a bus, or a train who smoked 7-hrs ago? Do you want a doctor performing an operation on you and he just smoked a big one 6-hrs ago? Or what about an officer who just smoked a big one and is now is pulling you over for a loud exhaust? Is his/her judgment impaired?
Last, but not least- Mexico. Americans will grow tired of the normal marijuana and opt for stronger drugs. This is were Mexico will make a “killing” since cocaine it will become the better drug of choice.
most of that was nonsense. 3/4 of your arguments involved situations that drinking would not be tolerated. Can you show up to work drunk? Can you drive drunk? Are there drunk in public laws? What the hell makes you think there would not be a same standard set for marijuana? If you applied all the laws of alcohol to marijuana, you would have the same regulation.
People can brew their own alcohol or grow their own tobacco, most do not.
Finally, you said "some people can use occasionally? Maybe its fear of getting caught that makes them use occasionally?" Come on....
Most people drink socially, but there are alcoholics. Some people smoke socially or limit it, and then there are chain smokers these both are addictive. Do we see productive members of society that use both these drugs and lead productive lives? YES. Do we see people who use thes drugs and lead non-productive lives and are bums? YES.
Marijuana would be no different. People act as if Marijuana some how would have this magic spell over people that would make them inept. People are people, you will have your users, and you will have your abusers. I can take pain killers without getting hooked or abusing, can that be said about everyone? no.
My ex wife couldn't handle a few drinks, she had to get drunk every time she drank. Shes an alcoholic. Does that mean all people are like her?
these are tired and worn out straw man arguments.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 03-20-2010).]
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05:10 PM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I've always been COMPLETELY against the legalization of marijuana. .............
And I've always been against governmental and/or societal micro-management of the individual....what they do in thier own home is NONE of my, your, or anybody elses business. Whover cant handle accepting that others are free to make thier own choices...oh, well.....
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Pot smoking breeds apathy,
I would respond to that, but I just dont care enough to be bothered.....
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 03-20-2010).]
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05:53 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Except for one, Nick, and that's the issue of growing your own.
You can distill your own alcohol and make beer, but it's a long intensive process to get it done. You really can't grow and make your own tobacco for cigarettes all that easily in most of the country and then you have to process it.
Marijuana is different in that regard. It is a weed around here. You want a few hundred tons? Come on over, I'll swath it down for you. It can be so easily grown, and all you have to do is dry it and shred it a little, that the heavier users will do just that getting around the taxes. That won't stand with a government hungry for tax revenue and it will lead to enforcement action by the ATMF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Marijuana, and Firearms agency).
That really blows a hole in the idea of "tax the hell out of it" so there wouldn't be nearly as much of a financial gain for the government but all of the headaches of cheap and easy access.
Just something to think about.
I do have a question for you. If the marijuana busts are usually secondary, what's the normal primary bust? See, that's where I have the problem People that use marijuana (especially to excess) are also the same people you're pulling over/arresting for other offences. IOW, I see real problems with responsible use of the substance. I have yet to hear one person say how making it legal would be a real positive to society except for tax revenue and to be honest, the government gets enough tax money already.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:
most of that was nonsense. 3/4 of your arguments involved situations that drinking would not be tolerated. Can you show up to work drunk? Can you drive drunk? Are there drunk in public laws? What the hell makes you think there would not be a same standard set for marijuana? If you applied all the laws of alcohol to marijuana, you would have the same regulation.
People can brew their own alcohol or grow their own tobacco, most do not.
Finally, you said "some people can use occasionally? Maybe its fear of getting caught that makes them use occasionally?" Come on....
Most people drink socially, but there are alcoholics. Some people smoke socially or limit it, and then there are chain smokers these both are addictive. Do we see productive members of society that use both these drugs and lead productive lives? YES. Do we see people who use thes drugs and lead non-productive lives and are bums? YES.
Marijuana would be no different. People act as if Marijuana some how would have this magic spell over people that would make them inept. People are people, you will have your users, and you will have your abusers. I can take pain killers without getting hooked or abusing, can that be said about everyone? no.
My ex wife couldn't handle a few drinks, she had to get drunk every time she drank. Shes an alcoholic. Does that mean all people are like her?
these are tired and worn out straw man arguments.
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06:04 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
And I've always been against governmental and/or societal micro-management of the individual....what they do in thier own home is NONE of my, your, or anybody elses business. Whover cant handle accepting that others are free to make thier own choices...oh, well.....
So, you'd be okay with your neighbor running a Meth lab in their house?
How about I move in next door and set up a asphalt plant?
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 03-20-2010).]
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06:50 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Except for one, Nick, and that's the issue of growing your own.
You can distill your own alcohol and make beer, but it's a long intensive process to get it done. You really can't grow and make your own tobacco for cigarettes all that easily in most of the country and then you have to process it.
Marijuana is different in that regard. It is a weed around here. You want a few hundred tons? Come on over, I'll swath it down for you. It can be so easily grown, and all you have to do is dry it and shred it a little, that the heavier users will do just that getting around the taxes. That won't stand with a government hungry for tax revenue and it will lead to enforcement action by the ATMF (Alcohol, Tobacco, Marijuana, and Firearms agency).
That really blows a hole in the idea of "tax the hell out of it" so there wouldn't be nearly as much of a financial gain for the government but all of the headaches of cheap and easy access.
Just something to think about.
I do have a question for you. If the marijuana busts are usually secondary, what's the normal primary bust? See, that's where I have the problem People that use marijuana (especially to excess) are also the same people you're pulling over/arresting for other offences. IOW, I see real problems with responsible use of the substance. I have yet to hear one person say how making it legal would be a real positive to society except for tax revenue and to be honest, the government gets enough tax money already.
John Stricker
as far as taxing, I can see your point. My argument would then be this. For the sake of enforcement alone, we would be saving billions and lives. The Cartels would lose power, The street value would drop, people are not going to shop with the shady underworld types if you can legally buy it in a smoke shop. The fact we would not be wasting money and manpower on a mild narcotic alone would save the tax payer valuable money and services. Forget the extra taxation by government. That alone should be enough. If a company wanted to sell name brand strains of weed, then fine, tax them.
as far as your questions about the arrest, most of the time its for simple traffic stops. Its nothing more then what I would stop you for. Blinker, illegal lane change, speed, emitting white light to the rear, etc. Its common things everyone gets stopped for. Its not like their up to no good. Sometimes it may be a noise or party complaint, but that no different with alcohol. Just like teens may be drinking under age, they too may have some pot.
Its hardly like the heavy stuff, like meth or heroin. Meth heads well steal from their mother and sell their soul to get a hit. They commit mass crime and break an entering to support their habit. They will kill to support their habit. Marijuana does not have this type of user. I no no one that has gone out and committed murder or mass crime because their jonesing for a hit of weed. It just doesn't happen. in the real world in my experience.
You may not like pot heads, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. most people hate drunks, but their freedom to drink is ok. My point is this........What dangers does marijuana poses to the user or society over alcohol? .....................NONE.
Alcohol cause more crime, death, and dangers to the user then Marijuana could dream of touching. I'm looking at this from a balanced perspective. Who cares about the Taxation issue, set that aside for a minute. That's bureaucratic BS anyway.
Can ANYONE male a case for me why Alcohol is acceptable and Marijuana is not? I would really like to hear it. After all my experience, I really cannot. If your honest with your self, and not let your biased sway you, I think you will find that you cannot argue the drinking is in any way better or safer then smoking pot.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 03-20-2010).]
obviously meth is a whole new realm. No thats not ok for a huge list of reasons.
I wasn't arguing with you on that Nick, I think it's plainly obvious what I was trying to point out.
If my neighbor wanted to smoke a doobie in his living room, I don't really care. If he wants to do something that could cause damage to me or my family/home, that's a different story. One that MEM seems to think I should be SOL on.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 03-20-2010).]
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07:01 PM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
So, you'd be okay with your neighbor running a Meth lab in their house?
How about I move in next door and set up a asphalt plant?
That would be kind of hard to do with my chosen lifestyle........kinda hard to get in the neighours way, when the closest neighbor is 1/2 mile or more away.
Sure, set up a meth lab--blow yerself up. I'll be nice and pull ya out of the tree when I drive by next week.....ashphalt plant in the middle of nowhere where the closest RR track is an hour and the closest secondary hiway is 20 minutes??--SURE !! go for it.........lets see how it works out for them financially and how long they last at it...<hehehehehe>
Dude, rural and city living really are 2 different things.........
I've done both, and IMHO cities are good for groceries and hookers.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 03-20-2010).]
I wasn't arguing with you on that Nick, I think it's plainly obvious what I was trying to point out.
If my neighbor wanted to smoke a doobie in his living room, I don't really care. If he wants to do something that could cause damage to me or my family/home, that's a different story. One that MEM seems to think I should be SOL on.
100% agreed. I wasn't arguing, just pointing out that meth was dangerous. That's why I don't tout the anybody should do WHATEVER they want. that obviously is not reasonable.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 03-20-2010).]
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07:07 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Can ANYONE male a case for me why Alcohol is acceptable and Marijuana is not? I would really like to hear it. After all my experience, I really cannot. If your honest with your self, and not let your biased sway you, I think you will find that you cannot argue the drinking is in any way better or safer then smoking pot.
I'm not trying to do that. I'm just pointing out that inorder to tax it you would have to in some way keep people from growing it privately. It is way to easy to grow. Most often the arguement is "look at all the tax money we could make", but how much tax money is it going to take to insure the governmment gets that revenue?
If we dismiss the tax money angle then what do we have? Per your post basically it boils down to making your job easier as you will no longer have to deal with it. However you will still be dealing with some aspects of it just not the ownership part. You'll still have to deal with the under the influence part. Is there a breathelizer a person who smokes pot can blow into letting you know just how high they are? What's the acceptable amount of highness?
Curious, you say it's a secondary infraction, being pulled over for something else. In your opinion, what percent of those are currently under the influence of pot?
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07:12 PM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
I wasn't arguing with you on that Nick, I think it's plainly obvious what I was trying to point out.
If my neighbor wanted to smoke a doobie in his living room, I don't really care. If he wants to do something that could cause damage to me or my family/home, that's a different story. One that MEM seems to think I should be SOL on.
That, man, depends on how you define "damage" to you or your family"..........
if me at 6'2, hairy legs, wearing a speedo and pink flip-flops to take out a pizza box with leftover anchovies to my trash does damage...........
ROTFFLMAO
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07:16 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Originally posted by NickD3.4: Can ANYONE male a case for me why Alcohol is acceptable and Marijuana is not? I would really like to hear it. After all my experience, I really cannot. If your honest with your self, and not let your biased sway you, I think you will find that you cannot argue the drinking is in any way better or safer then smoking pot.
Sure. It's acceptable because it's legal. The use of it is also a much older activity than smoking marijuana so it's more entrenched in our collective society.
That's beside the point, though. I've said over and over that alcohol does no good either, but that genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in. What BENEFIT is there by letting another one out that does no collective good for society?
Again, I honestly don't care. I know you don't partake, Nick. You're raising this discussion from what you've seen and had to do. I don't know how you do your traffic stops there but around here, I'm not routinely searched for an improper lane change. Do you routinely search speeders and traffic violations? If you do, then your department had a much more aggressive law enforcement policy than anything I've ever been around. No, I suspect that after the stop, something else goes on that gives you a pretty good idea there is marijuana in the vehicle. Demeanor, odor, something, but not just a routine traffic stop, and that's my point. If you can TELL they are users, then there ARE long term effects. The use is not benign. Is it worse than alcohol? I don't know, I've heard not. I don't care. I won't make the choice of punch me in the face or punch me in the stomach unless I'm forced to, I'd rather not get punched at all.
John Stricker
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07:18 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
And that's what you don't seem to get because of your Narcissistic personality, it is not all about you.
When you talk about changing the laws you're not just changing them for you, or the rural residents, you're changing them for EVERYONE. EVERYONE has to deal with the consequences, whether good or bad.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac:
That would be kind of hard to do with my chosen lifestyle........kinda hard to get in the neighours way, when the closest neighbor is 1/2 mile or more away.
Sure, set up a meth lab--blow yerself up. I'll be nice and pull ya out of the tree when I drive by next week.....ashphalt plant in the middle of nowhere where the closest RR track is an hour and the closest secondary hiway is 20 minutes??--SURE !! go for it.........lets see how it works out for them financially and how long they last at it...<hehehehehe>
Dude, rural and city living really are 2 different things.........
I've done both, and IMHO cities are good for groceries and hookers.
Sure. It's acceptable because it's legal. The use of it is also a much older activity than smoking marijuana so it's more entrenched in our collective society.
John Stricker
Not trying to bash you, just make sure the facts are out there:
Evidence of the inhalation of cannabis smoke can be found as far back as the 3rd millennium B.C., as indicated by charred cannabis seeds found in a ritual brazier at an ancient burial site in present day Romania.[6] Cannabis is also known to have been used by the ancient Hindus of India and Nepal thousands of years ago.
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07:38 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
most of that was nonsense. 3/4 of your arguments involved situations that drinking would not be tolerated. Can you show up to work drunk? Can you drive drunk? Are there drunk in public laws? What the hell makes you think there would not be a same standard set for marijuana? If you applied all the laws of alcohol to marijuana, you would have the same regulation.
Sorry, buy your thesis is flawed, especially when it comes to jobs that are dealing with the public safety.
1. Mandatory drug test. Most tests can detect traces of marijuana in the system way beyond 1-day (compared to alcohol in the blood stream). Are we to assume that these workers are going to be madidated not to smoke pot? Discriminations and lawsuits will follow.
2. Ex parolees. The system is already burden with parole officers with heavy cases. How are they going to screen for test> convicted pot dealers who violated the new law?
3. As stated, workers who have direct contact with the public. It's easier to mask marijuana, but not so easy for those who are alcoholics. Those recent pilots who we caught drinking prior to boarding the plane> what if they were stoned 3-hrs to boarding the plane and what if they crashed? Who’s responsible? Who would you detect the present of marijuana if they smoked it at home?
4. Stoned in the public. Expect more arrest and were you going to place them? Who is going to fund the extra work load of cases?
5. Altered marijuana. People are going to up the potency by dipping the joint in PCP. How is an officer going to determine if the marijuana isn't altered?
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07:40 PM
PFF
System Bot
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
You may not like pot heads, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. most people hate drunks, but their freedom to drink is ok. My point is this........What dangers does marijuana poses to the user or society over alcohol? .....................NONE.
Freedom to drink has caused enough problems that the government or any law can handle. Is smoking pot any different? Let's see.
How about the unborn child? Are we to assume that these new companies will fall under the same lawsuits as cigarettes?
What about the development of young children exposed to parents getting stoned? Is smoking marijuana considered "second hand smoke?" Lungs are totally different from mental development. Since there isn't a filter on a joint, I can see the government stepping in trying to regulate this. How much money will be spent on filters? Come on... you know they'll do it
What about the physiological make-up of the human body. What unknown cause will be attributed to those exposed to the drug on a regular basis? Will it result in an increase of birth defect?
If smoking pot results in the same similarites we are now experiencing with alcohol... expect a boat load of rehab facilities popping up on every corner.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 03-20-2010).]
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08:05 PM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
Originally posted by madcurl: Freedom to drink has caused enough problems that the government or any law can handle. Is smoking pot any different? Let's see.
Maybe, the problem starts with..in the 1st place, freedom to drink was never any governments or laws thing to own.......
it belongs to the individual, not the laywers or the goobernment.
Mankind was born to be free--make a rule, and we will break it---thats just what us humans are....which is why we end up with so many power struggles and wars.
<edit>
At least, those of us who arent sheeple.........
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 03-20-2010).]
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08:19 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
And alcohol consumption goes back a lot farther than that.
quote
While no one knows when beverage alcohol was first used, it was presumably the result of a fortuitous accident that occurred at least tens of thousands of years ago. However, the discovery of late Stone Age beer jugs has established the fact that intentionally fermented beverages existed at least as early as the Neolithic period (cir. 10,000 B.C.) (Patrick, 1952, pp. 12-13), and it has been suggested that beer may have preceded bread as a staple (Braidwood et al, 1953; Katz and Voigt, 1987); wine clearly appeared as a finished product in Egyptian pictographs around 4,000 B.C. (Lucia, 1963a, p. 216).
Cannibis use doesn't even come close to touching that.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula:
Not trying to bash you, just make sure the facts are out there:
Evidence of the inhalation of cannabis smoke can be found as far back as the 3rd millennium B.C., as indicated by charred cannabis seeds found in a ritual brazier at an ancient burial site in present day Romania.[6] Cannabis is also known to have been used by the ancient Hindus of India and Nepal thousands of years ago.
Sure. It's acceptable because it's legal. The use of it is also a much older activity than smoking marijuana so it's more entrenched in our collective society.
That's beside the point, though. I've said over and over that alcohol does no good either, but that genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in. What BENEFIT is there by letting another one out that does no collective good for society?
Again, I honestly don't care. I know you don't partake, Nick. You're raising this discussion from what you've seen and had to do. I don't know how you do your traffic stops there but around here, I'm not routinely searched for an improper lane change. Do you routinely search speeders and traffic violations? If you do, then your department had a much more aggressive law enforcement policy than anything I've ever been around. No, I suspect that after the stop, something else goes on that gives you a pretty good idea there is marijuana in the vehicle. Demeanor, odor, something, but not just a routine traffic stop, and that's my point. If you can TELL they are users, then there ARE long term effects. The use is not benign. Is it worse than alcohol? I don't know, I've heard not. I don't care. I won't make the choice of punch me in the face or punch me in the stomach unless I'm forced to, I'd rather not get punched at all.
John Stricker
No, I don't partake. As far as traffic stops, no, I don't search all stops. You cat dot that, thats a violation of civil rights. You must have probable cause i.e. Odor.
Im in the middle here by the way, I simply brought this up to have a stimulating conversation from many angles. interesting opinions. I see pros and cons to both sides.
Another problem to legalizing marijuana is; the neighbors. Can you imagine sitting in your backyard with the family, extended family, and a bunch of kids playing-; then the neighbor next door decides to fire-up a few like he's George Clinton from the Mother ship Connection or Snoop Dog. Keep in mind- your down wind from it?
What are you going to do? Walk over to the neighbor’s home and ask him to "hit-it" inside the house because you're grandma and kids are getting a contact from it? You can't call the police because it's legal now and your neighbor is within his newly founded rights to smoke it as he so damn well pleases.
What about those in public and you’re seated next to them on the bus? It's one thing to sit next to a cigarette smoker who stinks. Now you have to sit next to a person who reeks with pot. What if the person nods off, lies in your lap, and drools in your lap. Do you call the police and inform them the dude is stoned?
Another problem to legalizing marijuana is; the neighbors. Can you imagine sitting in your backyard with the family, extended family, and a bunch of kids playing-; then the neighbor next door decides to fire-up a few like he's George Clinton from the Mother ship Connection or Snoop Dog. Keep in mind- your down wind from it?
What are you going to do? Walk over to the neighbor’s home and ask him to "hit-it" inside the house because you're grandma and kids are getting a contact from it? You can't call the police because it's legal now and your neighbor is within his newly founded rights to smoke it as he so damn well pleases.
What about those in public and you’re seated next to them on the bus? It's one thing to sit next to a cigarette smoker who stinks. Now you have to sit next to a person who reeks with pot. What if the person nods off, lies in your lap, and drools in your lap. Do you call the police and inform them the dude is stoned?
Public intoxication and driving while under the influence would be the same as it is for alcohol. All of the laws on the books now for over indulgence would apply to Pot the same way they do to pills. My thoughts are that if it was made legal it would be used in a different form, tea or brownies comes to mind but it could even be used in a pill form. Smoking anything is too taboo in our society so I don't see them opening pot bars as you cant smoke in bars anyway.
Curl if you are prone to having people pass out in your lap you should find another way to travel or do what i do, put on an angry face. No one wants to sit next to an angry guy
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01:05 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Public intoxication and driving while under the influence would be the same as it is for alcohol. All of the laws on the books now for over indulgence would apply to Pot the same way they do to pills.
There's the problem. Since both alcohol and marijuana produces the same result which is intoxication; thus increasing the burden on law enforcement. IMO humans haven't changed over the centeries. When someting is new- we flock to like moths to the flames. Freedom is one thing, but absolute freedom is a totally different beast and we'll exploit it fully and then years later... we sit back and wonder what the hell happened?
Not to side track, but just look at prescription drugs. We will take anything to relive everything to get a “high” and then get addicted to it and wonder what happened. Just ask Elvis or Michael.
Except for one, Nick, and that's the issue of growing your own.
You can distill your own alcohol and make beer, but it's a long intensive process to get it done. You really can't grow and make your own tobacco for cigarettes all that easily in most of the country and then you have to process it.
Marijuana is different in that regard. It is a weed around here. You want a few hundred tons? Come on over, I'll swath it down for you. It can be so easily grown, and all you have to do is dry it and shred it a little, that the heavier users will do just that getting around the taxes.
That really blows a hole in the idea of "tax the hell out of it" so there wouldn't be nearly as much of a financial gain for the government but all of the headaches of cheap and easy access.
John Stricker
Right now I can brew enough Alcohol in my kitchen to keep me pretty much at the point of passing out for 30 days, and I could do it in a matter of days, and I could keep enough going to stay drunk indefinitely.
I could not do that with Marijuana. I could only possibly grow enough to get high for a day or two at most. Any more than that and I would have to expand, and grow in the back yard.
So I really cannot "just grow it and get high whenever".
Brad
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04:58 PM
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I've always been COMPLETELY against the legalization of marijuana. Anyone that tries to tout it's medical benefits is just a complete idiot because the argument works in the same way as saying that cutting off your testicals prevents testicular cancer. However, I've had an epiphony...
It occured to me that honestly the overwhelming vast majority of pot heads are liberals. Yes, this is true...
With that said, why would I WANT to save them from self inflicted misfortune???
Pot smoking breeds apathy, and if it will keep these morons from going to the polls because they are too lazy, then I am in COMPLETE support of legalization.
You are the only one using words like Idiot,Moron.I can only hope you never have someone who means something to you need anything to help with the pain,or nausea,or their appetite improved so they will eat to keep up their strength. If you ever want to see real examples of your words LOOK IN THE MIRROR !
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08:18 PM
Lilchief Member
Posts: 1737 From: Vevay,Indiana Registered: Feb 2004
Sure, why not. Don't have much to loose anymore. Might help pay for the health bill, pay off the national debt, pay off the Chinese, make the rich richer, keep me from worrying about retiring broke. Sounds good to me. Sorry I just don't have a good outlook on life anymore. Glad I still have my health,GF,kids,cars, pets and house. Nine more years to retirement and it doesn't look good.
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85 GT 3.4 14.9 @ 90 1.9 60' Old TH125/3.06 Unknown New 4T60/3.42
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10:05 PM
Mar 22nd, 2010
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 23818 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Actually it really does have legitimate medical use. I use to not think so, but after looking into it, its true. What do you think Vicodin, hydrocodone, and other pain killers are made from? their opiates, aka OPIUM. So, its ok to make painkillers from one form of narcotic, while the other form of narcotic is banned? There's no rhyme or reason to this other then the irrational stigma mainstream society has attached to marijuana. I use to think JUST like you, then I dealt with REAL drugs on the streets and the people who use them. Weed is like going after people who drink spiked ginger ale when the real problem is hard liqueur.
Being a Police Officer really opened my eyes to truth of how "harmful" marijuana is. Does is create apathy? in some people, but that's no more dangerous then alcohol creating negligence. Again, there is NOT a single effect of marijuana that you can show is worse then that of smoking or drinking alcohol. I have never had to arrest a pot head for beating his old ladies face in....ever. Matter of fact, I never have arrested ANYONE because they were committing a crime that was fueled by marijuana or being high. Almost all arrest for marijuana come as a secondary charge, i.e. people get stopped, searched, and then weed is discovered.
Normally I read everything you say... but let me put it to you this way...
If they could somehow develop a marijuana plant that didn't include the "stoner" effects from the drug, but still gave the medical "benefits", I guarantee you'd be shocked at how quickly the marijuana crowd would quickly stop using that as their main talking point.
for me - it seems the biggest hinderance is stereotypes. people have a stereotype of people who smoke weed as "Spicoli" from Fast Times at Ridgemont High. and, of course - Hippies. and, many folk have a actual hatred for "these kinds" of people.
edit: how about the other way around - how about we discuss why it SHOULD be illegal? betcha that is a weak list.
[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 03-22-2010).]
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10:11 AM
chucks85fastback Member
Posts: 223 From: Cholchester, CT, USA Registered: Jun 2007
legalize it, there really arent any good reasons not to, and there's people who use it once in awhile with friends or whatever (like me) and then there's people who use it at least once a day, like the kid who lives across the hall from me, he's also an A student, and not the first one i've met who can smoke me into the ground. i also have friends who smoke it all day and dont really make anything out of their lives, but thats not the weed thats just how they are.
also fieros sound awesome when youre stoned, i like to describe it as a crescendo of exhaust notes...
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12:04 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43231 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
I think if ti were legal not only would we have a much much higher percentage of dead beat people floating around high, living off the system, but also..
Will this change? Do you think the cost of Marijuana will go up or down? More affordable or less after being taxed? Combine that with many more people trying to get it. Will more people be poor, will more people need to steal to keep up their habit? -- State prison and local jail inmates who committed their offense for money to buy drugs
All offenses 17% Violent offenses 12% Robbery 27% Property offenses 26% Burglary 30% Larceny/theft 31% Drug offenses 22%
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Drug use by booked arrestees in 24 selected cities, by charge at arrest, 1991 Percent testing positive
Ok so a large amount of crime would go away if less people did drugs...so the logical thing to do would be to make it legal and easier for MORE people to DO DRUGS?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-22-2010).]
