Question is... will I be able to keep myself alive after building it?
You know, I just want to add that all the money I spent restoring one to make it stock ($7,000), I could have bought a half-way decent one with a blown engine, and done the entire swap with a little bit money left for gas...
Seriously... it's awesome. And you know, there are Porsche 944s on eBay ALL over the place with blown engines. Since Porsche dipped and galvenized the entire bodies from 1982+... all 944s don't really rust. Unless you store it in a salt barn or something, they're always totally rust free.
You can buy them all day for $500 bucks... and they're one of the best handling cars known to man-kind...
Man... I've got an itch... seriously... I may sell my pristine 02 Crown Victoria LX and 0-mile 69 Olds 455 HO big block and build a 944 LS1...
Shoot, I could get an E-Rod LS3 and put it in there, and then even drive it in California!
Well, I sold my 944... but honestly, I can't put my 455 into anything other than a big block car. It's got just shy of 600 foot pounds of torque, and it's all at like 1,800 rpms. Anything short of a Th-400 or a Th-425 is just on borrowed time. It's a gargantuan beast. It's got gobs of torque, and a decent amount of horsepower (probably just under 400), but it also weighs a ridiculous amount. I think when I hauled the Th-400 and the 455 (assembled) home before I tore it down and rebuilt it, the entire unit weighed over 800 pounds.
One of the things about the 944 is that it handles REALLY well... (transmission is mounted in the rear).
The 944 with the Renegade LS1 kit not only goes fast as hell, but it handles really well too.
I think that 455 is maybe a project I'll never do. At one point I had a 73 Cutlass, and it was awesome... but it ran well, and I sold it. I never put the motor in there. I just don't think I'll ever do a big muscle car...
But a 944... that's something you can sneak into a 2-car garage. I couldn't even get my Cadillac Eldorado in my garage and shut the door.
But a Fiero and a 944 can both fit nicely in the same spot with a car lift.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Well, I sold my 944... but honestly, I can't put my 455 into anything other than a big block car. It's got just shy of 600 foot pounds of torque, and it's all at like 1,800 rpms. Anything short of a Th-400 or a Th-425 is just on borrowed time. It's a gargantuan beast. It's got gobs of torque, and a decent amount of horsepower (probably just under 400), but it also weighs a ridiculous amount. I think when I hauled the Th-400 and the 455 (assembled) home before I tore it down and rebuilt it, the entire unit weighed over 800 pounds.
One of the things about the 944 is that it handles REALLY well... (transmission is mounted in the rear).
The 944 with the Renegade LS1 kit not only goes fast as hell, but it handles really well too.
I think that 455 is maybe a project I'll never do. At one point I had a 73 Cutlass, and it was awesome... but it ran well, and I sold it. I never put the motor in there. I just don't think I'll ever do a big muscle car...
But a 944... that's something you can sneak into a 2-car garage. I couldn't even get my Cadillac Eldorado in my garage and shut the door.
But a Fiero and a 944 can both fit nicely in the same spot with a car lift.
One of these days...
See i had a race ready 924 that we did somthing similar to. It was just a Jasper block but we bored it to a 355 and had a hot cam installed all done by Blanchards speedshop. Never dynod it but it ran the autox fairly decent
Shoot... I've been planning on restoring my 924 back to stock (unless the engine is toast. Then it's getting the 350sb treatment), but after seeing that..... hoooo man. oh, the possibilities
Dave
------------------ BAZOOKAFIERO's Junk "By now you can clearly tell Operation Poprocks 1 or originally Poprock, has failed, and due to time shortage we shall just attach a 2 behind Poprocks since, ahum, we all thought Operation Poprocks was fail proof and yet again humanity is on the brink of insanity."
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05:51 PM
PFF
System Bot
bristowb Member
Posts: 745 From: douglasville,georgia,usa Registered: Oct 2009
The only thing wrong in the whole video was that it was a standard Porsche Carrera. Maybe an S model that only has 320hp maybe 360 if it is the newer one. It was no $130k Porsche. In that range you have the GT3 and the Twin turbo. Both which are much, much faster than the Porsche He raced. And the new Twin Turbo has 500hp I think he would have a hard time with that one. Cool Car though wish I had it.
This is blasphemy. Not only does it screw over its 50/50 weight ratio and handling, but its no longer a Porsche. In my opinion this is for unrefined boobs. I grew up around Porsche's and we always had 944's around. A 944 turbo with a K20 turbo and Lindsy racing mods would roast this car both on and off the track.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 12-17-2010).]
The only thing wrong in the whole video was that it was a standard Porsche Carrera. Maybe an S model that only has 320hp maybe 360 if it is the newer one. It was no $130k Porsche. In that range you have the GT3 and the Twin turbo. Both which are much, much faster than the Porsche He raced. And the new Twin Turbo has 500hp I think he would have a hard time with that one. Cool Car though wish I had it.
Exactly. a turbo charged 911 turbo or GT3 would have had that ls1 easy. especially at the higher Rpm range on the free way. Hell, the standard Carrera it was racing was hanging for while. $130,000 for a LS1 944? you can buy a Porsche that would smoke that thing and get twice the gas mileage. I don't see the point.
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11:53 PM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
This is blasphemy. Not only does it screw over its 50/50 weight ratio and handling, but its no longer a Porsche. In my opinion this is for unrefined boobs. I grew up around Porsche's and we always had 944's around. A 944 turbo with a K20 turbo and Lindsy racing mods would roast this car both on and off the track.
herr doctor porsche started his post war CORP with HOT ROD VWs so it allways cracks me up to hear porsche pureness preached
alloy LS-1 motors donot really screw up a 944 handling the porsche 4 banger is a heavy lump
my dad had 356's 6 or 7 inc a bathtub and a real carrera 4 cam
herr doctor porsche started his post war CORP with HOT ROD VWs so it allways cracks me up to hear porsche pureness preached
alloy LS-1 motors donot really screw up a 944 handling the porsche 4 banger is a heavy lump
my dad had 356's 6 or 7 inc a bathtub and a real carrera 4 cam
It does effect the balance and handling because everything on that car was balanced for a purpose, even the location of the battery was designed on purpose for this!
It always cracks me up that people like you bring up Volkswagon as if some how this effects a porsche's "pureness". Porsche invented Volkswagon along with their "Porsche" labeled sports line later. They are all created by the same man/company. You bringing up Volkswagon and comparing to Porsche in terms to "pureness" is like saying "The Chevy Silverado is just a re-badged GMC Sierra". Eh.........no **** Sherlock. you can interchange GMC and Chevy parts and remain true to its originality because its the same damn company.
So, whats your point? putting a ls1 in a GM car makes sense, its a GM engine! You can interchange VW and Porsche parts and still remain true to its originality, they have the same damn creator and parts. Duh!
Are you really that dense? If you put a V8 ls1 in a Fiero, its still an American engine by GM in a GM car. That makes sense.
I have too much respect for Porsche and its engineering to drop a GM v8 in.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 12-18-2010).]
I drove the 944 turbo for 6 years. LS 1 would be great upgrade the turbo charge 247 hp Torque: 243@3,500 rpm buzz saw with 19 mpg (city) 25 mpg (hwy) If your lucky.. 944 engine weight is 340 pounds dry. Losing maybe 100lbs to a ls1? Lets not forget about the Lindsy K20 turbo treatment. All the trick goody's just to bring the engine up too a Ls1 power lvl. Adding more weight.. Might what to add some NOS on the buzz saw engine. I know what the LS1 is capable of.. That 151 cu.in in a 944 is not going to get it..
Don't drive through his town with you LS 1 powered 944. He run ya in for blasphemy
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07:15 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
This is blasphemy. Not only does it screw over its 50/50 weight ratio and handling, but its no longer a Porsche. In my opinion this is for unrefined boobs. I grew up around Porsche's and we always had 944's around. A 944 turbo with a K20 turbo and Lindsy racing mods would roast this car both on and off the track.
Nick D, you and I agree on a lot... but we disagree here!
The 944 WAS an amazing car... a joint effort between VW and Porsche to produce the 924. I know that in the end, VW didn't want it (forget why) and Porsche decided to take it up (and it saved the company).
The 944 was designed really well, but the LS1 motor does NOT upset the balance and weight distribution. I've been on RennList for quite some time, and the guys whom have done the LS1 swap have told me that the swap only changes things to about 51/49 front to rear. It still uses the same differential and transmission that's mounted in the rear, still uses the same torque tube, etc.
51/49 is not going to have a profound effect on the handling of the car.
But lets put it this way, there are dozens of 944s on eBay right now with blown motors. I can't tell you how many 944s I see in the junkyard, even Euro-Spec ones with the cool bumper. All of these cars will end up in the junkyard and crushed. Do you have a problem with someone taking a 944 that will end up in the junkyard, and putting an LS1 motor into it? That's how you need to look at this. There are VERY few people who have taken perfectly working 944s and done motor swaps to them.
In any case, I'm vindicated... I took a 944 that was destined for the junkyard, and went through the entire car. Even had to get power of attorney from a guy on a naval ship across the world just so I could register it in his name and then sign it over to myself. I dumped ~$4,500 bucks in parts into it and then sold it to a Porsche enthusiast.
The bottom line is... with an original 944, the maintenance is insane. Oil-to-water cooler leaks are so extremely common. And, unless you have an 85.5+ you don't have the belt tensioner which requires the cricket tool (which I bought, and I hate). If you don't set the proper tension on the belt, the cyl head gets destroyed when the pistons nail the valves.
The 2.5 is ACTUALLY, half a Porsche 5.0 928 motor... which necessitated balancing shafts to help off-set the negative torque effects.
I would much rather (at this point) have a 944 with an LS1 motor in there that I can actually drive, without having to tear the front of the motor off every 5,000 miles so I can adjust the belt. I prefer the (82)83-85 interiors.
When I do my swap... I'm getting a 944 that already has a blown motor...
Nick D, you and I agree on a lot... but we disagree here!
The 944 WAS an amazing car... a joint effort between VW and Porsche to produce the 924. I know that in the end, VW didn't want it (forget why) and Porsche decided to take it up (and it saved the company).
The 944 was designed really well, but the LS1 motor does NOT upset the balance and weight distribution. I've been on RennList for quite some time, and the guys whom have done the LS1 swap have told me that the swap only changes things to about 51/49 front to rear. It still uses the same differential and transmission that's mounted in the rear, still uses the same torque tube, etc.
51/49 is not going to have a profound effect on the handling of the car.
But lets put it this way, there are dozens of 944s on eBay right now with blown motors. I can't tell you how many 944s I see in the junkyard, even Euro-Spec ones with the cool bumper. All of these cars will end up in the junkyard and crushed. Do you have a problem with someone taking a 944 that will end up in the junkyard, and putting an LS1 motor into it? That's how you need to look at this. There are VERY few people who have taken perfectly working 944s and done motor swaps to them.
In any case, I'm vindicated... I took a 944 that was destined for the junkyard, and went through the entire car. Even had to get power of attorney from a guy on a naval ship across the world just so I could register it in his name and then sign it over to myself. I dumped ~$4,500 bucks in parts into it and then sold it to a Porsche enthusiast.
The bottom line is... with an original 944, the maintenance is insane. Oil-to-water cooler leaks are so extremely common. And, unless you have an 85.5+ you don't have the belt tensioner which requires the cricket tool (which I bought, and I hate). If you don't set the proper tension on the belt, the cyl head gets destroyed when the pistons nail the valves.
The 2.5 is ACTUALLY, half a Porsche 5.0 928 motor... which necessitated balancing shafts to help off-set the negative torque effects.
I would much rather (at this point) have a 944 with an LS1 motor in there that I can actually drive, without having to tear the front of the motor off every 5,000 miles so I can adjust the belt. I prefer the (82)83-85 interiors.
When I do my swap... I'm getting a 944 that already has a blown motor...
I guess I can see your point. I would rather have a 944 saved with an LS1 then see it junked. I just feel weird about putting LS1's in cars like that. Perhaps i'm just a romantic when it comes to certain cars. My experience with the 944 has been opposite from yours though, as long as you treat the car right it has been bullet proof on reliability. I love the Ls1, but I think I would prefer it in a WS6 over the 944. I guess because if I am going to drive a Porsche, I want it to be a Porsche. With an LS1, its not a Porsche anymore. I would however love to see how they handle on a track.
stock 1/4 mile times for the late 944 turbos were 13.7-13.9. This is on par with a 2002 WS6. I think that says alot for a car that is over 20 years old.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 12-18-2010).]
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01:35 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9114 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
I guess I can see your point. I would rather have a 944 saved with an LS1 then see it junked. I just feel weird about putting LS1's in cars like that. Perhaps i'm just a romantic when it comes to certain cars. My experience with the 944 has been opposite from yours though, as long as you treat the car right it has been bullet proof on reliability. I love the Ls1, but I think I would prefer it in a WS6 over the 944. I guess because if I am going to drive a Porsche, I want it to be a Porsche. With an LS1, its not a Porsche anymore. I would however love to see how they handle on a track.
stock 1/4 mile times for the late 944 turbos were 13.7-13.9. This is on par with a 2002 WS6. I think that says alot for a car that is over 20 years old.
Well, WS6 (the rpo/option) made it into a few cars, not just the 98-02 TransAm. It was in the CanAm, the Fiero, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gen Firebirds, and I believe even the Pontiac 1000 Rally Edition... but I know what you're saying (and know you know about the Fiero).
I've had a bunch of f-bodies, and people always call the 98-02 TransAm "WS6" cars... but even though they put the RPO on the back, it really isn't a model designator. It's like when car companies wrote ABS or EFI, some of those other acronyms on the cars back in the day. There were some Caddys (which I can't remember) that, like the WS6 rpo, also put an RPO on the back fascia to designate a fancy option.
Still, I know what you're saying, and it's part of the reason I haven't swapped out the V6 in my own Fiero for something else... (just rebuilt it). I don't want to upset the "character of the car."
The car in the video above wasn't a Turbo, but was in this case a DOHC 4 cyl... maybe an S2 I guess. I'm assuming the engine was bad, but oh well. Personally, I would take an 83-85 and drop the LS1 into it. As you know... many of the Porsche guys have different levels of arrogance. The 944 guys look down on the 924 guys, the 928 guys look down on the 944 guys... everyone wonders "WTF" to the 968 guys... and the 911 guys look down on everyone. And now... the 914 guys are laughing because the values of those cars have skyrocketed... even though it has a VW Bus engine in it.
I may actually end up building a 928 w/ an LS1. The interiors are a bit nicer, and with my advanced age of 32... I've come to appreciate a more refined and sedate sound... so the interior quality of the 928 is technically superior to that of a 944. It would be nice to totally gut one, coat the entire inside of it with rubberized undercoating, and then lay down some fat mat, and put everything back stock (love those seats). Then put a nice cool running LS3 50-state emissions legal V8 in it, and make that my daily driver.
Imagine... high 12s in the quarter with 30+ miles to the gallon on the highway???
Plus, how many stock speaker locations are there in a 928? There's two on each door, and two in the dash, and two in the rear quarter panels, and two in the trunk panel surrounds (optional), and of course the dual under-seat mounted Blaupunkt subwoofers... I could essentially have the most amazing stereo system AND it would look totally stock.
I love the 928... it's crazy that I can own an $80,000+ car for $4,500 bucks...
Yeah, I like the 928, but it will kill you on maintenance. I dont know why Porsche guys are so snobby to each other. I know the 911 crowd likes to think their cars are only the true Porsche. pretty lame. I love all porches for what they are. A 914 with a 911 Rd engine will kick a 911's ass up and down a track all day. The cayman could easily out perform a 911 as well if Porsche let it live to its potential. Reminds me of Chevy protesting Pontiacs turbo version of the Fiero because it smoked the Corvette. Politics as usual.
I apologies to ya nick. It was early in the morn. The word blasphemy just tore me up when I started thinking about working on that 944. I enjoy working on cars But only when I don't have to..
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06:15 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
I apologies to ya nick. It was early in the morn. The word blasphemy just tore me up when I started thinking about working on that 944. I enjoy working on cars But only when I don't have to..
no worries buddy.
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11:52 PM
Dec 19th, 2010
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24139 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I'm sorry too man... I felt that my post was almost a hair negative. Please forgive me... I love you...
hahah...
Seriously considering a 928 though...
LOL nah your fine. love ya too
I would love a 928, my ex girlfriend drove a 928 S, black on black. Its the upkeep on those things that scare me. Exotic Porsche in Scottsdale, they always tell me to steer clear of them.
a little off subject... and sorry for that. but this is my 9yr old daughters car her and i are building.
has a blown turbo, so we are ditching the porsche motor and dropping in a new crate aluminum ls2. she actually comes home from school and is pumped about working on it each day... woohoo... lol
for many years i was a porsche purist... i would have never thought of putting a chevrolet motor in a porsche 10 years ago. but recent times i install the ls motors in customers porsches and ferraris all day long. and they are fun to drive after the ls motor is in them. very similar to a go kart on steroids... but as said previously in this thread... i am saving a 944 turbo that would otherwise be scraped. i have put a ls3 in my porsche 911 rs america already though... and its a blast to drive. and by the way the 944 na engine is 320lbs and the 944 turbo engine is 361lbs and a fully dressed ls2 or ls3 is only 400lbs. so the weight in a 944 is negligable in the balance of the car. i dont think it even shifts the balance to 51/49 i think it is still 50/50. but anyhow. my .02
[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-19-2010).]
So in all reality.. Assuming you buy an install kit and go the expensive route of a new crate ls2... how much on top of a 944 to do this right?
there are several good kits on the market... do some research and see which one you like best. the renegade kit is the best laid out kit from beginning to finish and they are personal friends of mine... but they arent the only fish in the pond. i actually build my own kit for all my installs. it helps that i own a machine shop lol. but lets say you pay 500.00 to 1000.00 for the donor porsche with a bad motor, the renegade kit is something like 2600.00 and the ls2 is something like 8000.00 from gmpp with harness ecm and all accessories. so theoretically you would have around 11600.00 in a car that will beat the pants off of most supercars... my daughters experiance so far is... 1986 944 turbo donor car.... free from a personal friend of mine. i built her install kit and i have about 540.00 in materials. and the ls2 gmpp motor cost me 4800.00 from another friend of mine that owns the local chevrolet dealership who also has a 944 ls2 that i built for him. so total so far she has $5240.00 in a 400hp 2700lb rocket. and being almost 25 yrs old it still looks like an amazing car.
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06:41 AM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
ps here is a pic of my 964/911 rs america with a ls3/hotcam kit in it, when i recieved the crate engine i tore it down and put arp main studs, arp head studs, arp rod bolts, and copper head gaskets on it so i could spray it. i have stainless steel headers on it feeding true dual stainless steel magnaflows. so conservative hp on motor alone is around 510hp at the flywheel... then a 250hp NOS super shot kit on top of that for around 760hp at the flywheel in a 2800lb car.... give or take a few. all of the suspension bushings in the car were removed and replaced with spherical bearings, all the strut tops were replaced with adjustable monoball camber plates, and the suspension is a adjustable bilstein pss10 race coil overs piggy back resevoir setup. full scca legal cage in the car integrated into the headliner, and the car is corner balanced. car has the legendary g5052 getrag porsche twin turbo transaxle that will handle around 900-1000ft lbs of torque in my custom application, quaife lsd and cryo all components then rem coat all of it with billet side plate, all nuts and bolt in entire trans is arp. .... serious serious car... enjoy
EDIT; for those of you who may know porsches... yes those are ultra rare ruf 19" wheels... lol
[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-20-2010).]
