ps here is a pic of my 964/911 rs america with a ls3/hotcam kit in it, when i recieved the crate engine i tore it down and put arp main studs, arp head studs, arp rod bolts, and copper head gaskets on it so i could spray it. i have stainless steel headers on it feeding true dual stainless steel magnaflows. so conservative hp on motor alone is around 510hp at the flywheel... then a 250hp NOS super shot kit on top of that for around 760hp at the flywheel in a 2800lb car.... give or take a few. all of the suspension bushings in the car were removed and replaced with spherical bearings, all the strut tops were replaced with adjustable monoball camber plates, and the suspension is a adjustable bilstein pss10 race coil overs piggy back resevoir setup. full scca legal cage in the car integrated into the headliner, and the car is corner balanced. car has the legendary g5052 getrag porsche twin turbo transaxle that will handle around 900-1000ft lbs of torque in my custom application, quaife lsd and cryo all components then rem coat all of it with billet side plate, all nuts and bolt in entire trans is arp. .... serious serious car... enjoy
EDIT; for those of you who may know porsches... yes those are ultra rare ruf 19" wheels... lol
Any engine bay pics? I want to see how hard it would be to service. Might do a LSX to my 85 911 widebody
[This message has been edited by topher_time (edited 12-20-2010).]
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10:08 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24042 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Any engine bay pics? I want to see how hard it would be to service. Might do a LSX to my 85 911 widebody
I've never owned a 928, but I've seen plenty in the yard. Other than the usual... being a low-slung car and having to get to all the stuff from the underneath, I can't imagine it's that bad.
I think what he might be referring to is the cost. Everything on a Porsche is ridiculously expensive. The caps that cover the screw holes are $4.99 a piece. A cap that covers the bolt that the seat belt goes into, that's $7.99. There are s**t-loads of little odds and ends that are ridiculously expensive. A set of crank sensors are $175 a piece...
Brake components and stuff like that... it's like trying to buy one-off 1988 Fiero parts.
My experience with the 944 has been opposite from yours though, as long as you treat the car right it has been bullet proof on reliability.
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Yeah, I like the 928, but it will kill you on maintenance.
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I would love a 928 ... Its the upkeep on those things that scare me.
In my experience, properly-maintained Porsches are highly reliable. (Well ... all except the 924.) The 911S I bought new in 1969 was still running fine 15 years later (original engine and transmission) when I sold it with ~125,000 miles on the odometer. The '80 928 I bought used in 1984 with about 50,000 miles on it was still running strong at ~195,000 miles (original engine and transmission) when it was destroyed in a home/shop fire. Contrary to popular belief, you can do most of your own maintenance on these cars; just buy a factory service manual and good quality tools, and then work carefully and methodically. It's the cost of OEM Porsche parts, when required, that's the killer. Even though you can find clean and mechanically sound Porsches for under $10,000, remember that (unlike a Fiero) you will still be buying parts for a $50,000 to $100,000+ car.
Concerning the 928s specifically, I would suggest the SOHC '80 through '83 (non-S) cars as the perhaps the best choice for someone who plans to do his own maintenance. These are non-interference engines, so they won't destroy themselves when a cam jumps timing (and it will happen ... see below), the fuel injection is Bosch electronic port injection much like GM used on the V6 Fieros, and the emission control system does not include an air pump. There were only two areas on my 928 that required recurrent maintenance: the timing belt and the water pump.
The early 928s used a single, very long (82+ inch!) cogged timing belt to drive both cams, water pump, and oil pump, and in finest (i.e. infamous) Porsche tradition their belt tensioner design was terrible ... a ~4 inch stack of Belleville washers in an oil-filled housing, with a simple threaded shaft for static preload adjustment. The tensioner spent most of its life locked solid, for a variety of reasons inherent in the design, so when the timing belt stretched with age and/or changes in temperature one of the cams (usually the right cylinder bank first) would jump timing a tooth or two. Retiming the cams just required removing a couple of dust covers (timing marks were conveniently cast in place, so no special tools were required), but access to the tensioner for adjustment or overhaul pretty much required removing the radiator ... not a difficult task, but tedious and time consuming. By now there is probably an "improved" belt tensioner available, but I don't know of one, and even then I wonder what one might cost.
The other recurring maintenance area on my 928 was the $120 water pump, which required replacement every 60,000 miles ... just like clockwork. Since replacing the water pump required removing the radiator, too, I usually just did everything at once: replace the water pump, replace the timing belt, and rebuild the usually-seized belt tensioner. This was typically a full weekend project.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-20-2010).]
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12:02 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24042 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Even though you can find clean and mechanically sound Porsches for under $10,000, remember that you will still be buying parts for a $50,000 to $100,000+ car.
yes... i agree most of my customers have me convert their porsches or ferraris to ls motors because it is far cheaper than a porsche motor or ferrari motor and the maintenance is easier and cheaper in the long run as well. hp upgrades on the ls motors is by far less expensive than the exotics as well. a 400-500hp ls motor is 8-10 grand and a comparable porsche engine is 25 grand and up. here is a pic of a customers car with a ls1.
[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-21-2010).]
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04:08 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24042 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
yes... i agree most of my customers have me convert their porsches or ferraris to ls motors because it is far cheaper than a porsche motor or ferrari motor and the maintenance is easier and cheaper in the long run as well. hp upgrades on the ls motors is by far less expensive than the exotics as well. a 400-500hp ls motor is 8-10 grand and a comparable porsche engine is 25 grand and up. here is a pic of a customers car with a ls1.
Mera, did you say you make your own, or you use the Renegade kit?
People REALLY swap out the Ferrari motors for the LS?
I think I kind of draw the line at a Ferrari / Lamborgini... I mean, unless it's like some crappy 1979 Mondial something or other with a blown motor, then I really don't see the problem...
I have often said, I would rather own a Nearly perfect replica than a REAL exotic. All my clients who own them, never drive them. As one TV Exec said about his Daughter's Murci... Every time she takes it out of the garage, I throw $3k in the Maintenance jar for it. He did at least say it with a smile. But then I can't afford that kinda scratch to enjoy a car.
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01:48 PM
Dec 22nd, 2010
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
So, whats your point? putting a ls1 in a GM car makes sense, its a GM engine! You can interchange VW and Porsche parts and still remain true to its originality, they have the same damn creator and parts. Duh!
Are you really that dense? If you put a V8 ls1 in a Fiero, its still an American engine by GM in a GM car. That makes sense.
I have too much respect for Porsche and its engineering to drop a GM v8 in.
Who wants to put a better designed engine with more power into a well designed car anyway? last time I checked, 400hp > 200.
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10:54 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24042 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Who wants to put a better designed engine with more power into a well designed car anyway? last time I checked, 400hp > 200.
I can appreciate an LS motor in a Porsche 924 or a 944, or even a poor running / detuned US spec 928.
But I would be really hard pressed to appreciate a real Ferrari having an LS motor installed in it.
Different strokes I suppose, but I look at these cars from a different perspective than most people do. Many people want a Ferrari, or some other exotic because of the prestige of owning one, and / or being seen driving it. There's nothing wrong with this, but I am pretty convinced that this is why most people buy a lot of these cars. And like I said, there's nothing wrong with that, and I think to some extent, EVERYONE is like that just a little bit.
On the other hand though, I look at an exotic or more specifically, an Italian super car as a piece of artwork. Anyone ever see that episode of Top Gear where they each seek to buy a 70s Italian supercar under 10,000 pounds? (Video added below)
Well... call me crazy, but other than the monetary value associated with the cars that I could use for charity, pay bills, pay off my house, etc... I would MUCH rather own any one of these three cars, over a brand new Ferrari Enzo. Dead serious... even that Ferrari Dino. Particularly though, I'd rather have the Maserati or the Lambo... but I would take any one of these three cars over the Enzo.
So, the truth is none of these cars are particularly quick. I would guess they all run maybe a 0-60 from mid 6s to mid 7s. Nothing too spectacular. An LS1 V8 would make these cars lightning fast... but doing so in cars like this, it would totally ruin the original experience of the car. The sound these engines make are very distinct. The LS1 sounds awesome in it's own right, but it doesn't sound like a high-revving, low displacement V10.
That said, I would bet 9 out of 10 people disagree with me... and I accept that.
But, if I had any one of those three cars, and the engine was shot. I would take the engine out, clean it up, put it on a stand, and then drop an LS1 in it. I would make it so that anything I did could be removed without any permenant modification to the car. Then, the next guy that gets the car can rebuild that motor if he wants.
82ta, absolutely no disrespect meant by my response... my personal experiance is... i actually was looking for a early ferrari 308 gtb with a blown motor to put an ls motor in. but because i like the looks of the 308 not because of the mechanicals. mechanically i work on these cars all the time and the ferrari is a poor quality car and requires lots of expensive maintenance to keep them alive. instead i found out about the pontiac mera and i was sold. a genuine gm product sold through dealers that looks like a 308 but uses gm mechanicals... best of both worlds in my opinion. but back on sugject... most of my customers would rather drive their ferrari with a ls motor in it than look at it broke sitting in the garage. ferrari... drive it a mile work on it awhile. plz dont forget fiat is italian and are not reliable. talk to someone who owns a mid eighties 308 and they will tell you how unreliable the cars are. lots of people have fantasies of italian cars but have neverr owned one or worked on one. again with that said... no disrespect meant.
[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-22-2010).]
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02:16 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24042 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
82ta, absolutely no disrespect meant by my response... my personal experiance is... i actually was looking for a early ferrari 308 gtb with a blown motor to put an ls motor in. but because i like the looks of the 308 not because of the mechanicals. mechanically i work on these cars all the time and the ferrari is a poor quality car and requires lots of expensive maintenance to keep them alive. instead i found out about the pontiac mera and i was sold. a genuine gm product sold through dealers that looks like a 308 but uses gm mechanicals... best of both worlds in my opinion. but back on sugject... most of my customers would rather drive their ferrari with a ls motor in it than look at it broke sitting in the garage. ferrari... drive it a mile work on it awhile. plz dont forget fiat is italian and are not reliable. talk to someone who owns a mid eighties 308 and they will tell you how unreliable the cars are. lots of people have fantasies of italian cars but have neverr owned one or worked on one. again with that said... no disrespect meant.
Hah... I don't see a single disrespectful thing about your response. You should see some of the other threads in O/T... your response to me almost makes it sound like you're complimenting me.
I agree with everything you've said...
But... I personally would rather have a working Italian motor in an Italian supercar of the 70s / 80s... than an LS1 motor in it. But, if I had any of these cars and their motors were blow, I would have no problems putting an LS1 into it. But... I would want to ensure that the installation was removable so that nothing done was permenant.
But... I personally would rather have a working Italian motor in an Italian supercar of the 70s / 80s... than an LS1 motor in it. But, if I had any of these cars and their motors were blow, I would have no problems putting an LS1 into it. But... I would want to ensure that the installation was removable so that nothing done was permenant.
i agree here.....to me and i do not know anything about the Mechanicals. but to me the only thing different between the two minus the lower cost of GM replacement and, ease in regaurds to working on them. the Ferrair/Lambo OEM engines is about the sound.....as stated earlier no V8 will ever get that sweet V10/V12 sound....thats what atractted me to 80's supercars......and like Mera7 i own a Mera for similar reasons as well.
everytime i think about a swap in my Mera i always come back to the sound.......example:- first 10 secs!!!
i agree here.....to me and i do not know anything about the Mechanicals. but to me the only thing different between the two minus the lower cost of GM replacement and, ease in regaurds to working on them. the Ferrair/Lambo OEM engines is about the sound.....as stated earlier no V8 will ever get that sweet V10/V12 sound....thats what atractted me to 80's supercars......and like Mera7 i own a Mera for similar reasons as well.
everytime i think about a swap in my Mera i always come back to the sound.......example:- first 10 secs!!!
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: How about THIS exotic sound???
the sound alone cost $10,000. that ^^ car is the whip bomb. the exhaust smoke in the pic above is worth 20 bucks. retail. the guy should charge 5 bucks just to start it if one should wanna hear it bad enough at car shows and the lot laters
[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 12-24-2010).]
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10:34 AM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
Just saw this thread... That is awesome, An LS in a 944. I helped my friend put a 327/350 from a 67 corvette into his 914. WAY more involved than the 944 looked.
-Dave
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12:55 PM
Dec 25th, 2010
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hah... I don't see a single disrespectful thing about your response. You should see some of the other threads in O/T... your response to me almost makes it sound like you're complimenting me.
I agree with everything you've said...
But... I personally would rather have a working Italian motor in an Italian supercar of the 70s / 80s... than an LS1 motor in it. But, if I had any of these cars and their motors were blow, I would have no problems putting an LS1 into it. But... I would want to ensure that the installation was removable so that nothing done was permenant.
yes i build my own kits... all of my kits are designed to bolt into the factory mount holes. no cutting or welding on the original cars.
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06:57 AM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
yes... i agree most of my customers have me convert their porsches or ferraris to ls motors because it is far cheaper than a porsche motor or ferrari motor and the maintenance is easier and cheaper in the long run as well. hp upgrades on the ls motors is by far less expensive than the exotics as well. a 400-500hp ls motor is 8-10 grand and a comparable porsche engine is 25 grand and up. here is a pic of a customers car with a ls1.
I would love to see more pictures of this project? Considering all that is involved in doing this I'm willing to bet many pictures and documentation has been kept. Is there a build topic on Fchat or?
What is the name of your business?
Rodney
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01:20 PM
Rodney Member
Posts: 4715 From: Caledonia, WI USA Registered: Feb 2000
only ls conversion currently in the shop is my daughters car right now. pics are above, its the white turbo. thanks, mike
The shop or your shop? Who owns this shop? What is the name of this shop? Considering what you say you do to exotic cars and such it must be very popular around the internet. Any info is appreciated.
Rodney
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01:23 PM
kyunderdawg Member
Posts: 4373 From: Bowling Green, KY. USA Registered: Aug 2008
Exactly. a turbo charged 911 turbo or GT3 would have had that ls1 easy. especially at the higher Rpm range on the free way. Hell, the standard Carrera it was racing was hanging for while. $130,000 for a LS1 944? you can buy a Porsche that would smoke that thing and get twice the gas mileage. I don't see the point.
I don't know, Nick. Maybe I understood it wrong on the vid. I think he was sayin' "goodbye $130,000 Porche". In other words, his LS1 powered 944 would dust that high dollar car. Not that he actually had $130,000 in the 944.
[This message has been edited by kyunderdawg (edited 02-06-2011).]
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04:15 PM
kyunderdawg Member
Posts: 4373 From: Bowling Green, KY. USA Registered: Aug 2008
That's what Stacey David did on his TV show "Gearz." It's a Miata, but he took away sort of the bubbly look to the car, and made it a bit more masculine / classic styling. It's ridiculous.
EDIT: Whoops, sorry, it was a small block Ford he put in there.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's what Stacey David did on his TV show "Gearz." It's a Miata, but he took away sort of the bubbly look to the car, and made it a bit more masculine / classic styling. It's ridiculous.
EDIT: Whoops, sorry, it was a small block Ford he put in there.
I want that! The front end reminds me of the Lamborghini Miura and an Austin Healey Sprite cross.
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06:33 PM
Feb 7th, 2011
Rodney Member
Posts: 4715 From: Caledonia, WI USA Registered: Feb 2000
The shop or your shop? Who owns this shop? What is the name of this shop? Considering what you say you do to exotic cars and such it must be very popular around the internet. Any info is appreciated.
