These EVs do not use a battery like on a normal car. Im sure a 'swap' is a major undertaking, almost like intalling a new gas engine. Ones Ive seen, the battery almost is a structural piece of the car, either packed into the trunk area or under the floorboard sandwiched into the chassis. Its like 4' X 6' and a foot or two deep. Not knowing the details, but its not something you cant change on your way to the office one morning.
The biggest pack out there is in the Tesla, and no, it's not an easy swap. However, it wasn't designed with battery swapping in mind. A car with that design would likely have features like easy-remove panels and slide-out racks to hold the module. But again, not particularly viable. If I had a car that had a $5,000 battery pack in it I would be very hesitant to get it swapped out at Joe's Garage and EV Grill in the middle of nowhere, especially if my car had 2k miles on it and the replacement pack had 70K.
Now, one way to do it would be if the packs were actually owned by a single company or consortium with standardized design, leaving the car manufacturers just building the cars. Kind of like your digital camera uses standard AA batteries (Canon, Pentax, et. al. are not in the business of making batteries), cars would use standard modules, maybe even multiple smaller modules like the MotoCzysz E1pc http://www.popsci.com/cars/...-electric-motorcycle . Multiple modules would allow designing different cars with different voltage and range values. The car owner would lease the batteries and the authorized distributor stations out in the field would stock them.
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01:40 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
The video makes everything look delightful and friendly... but I just don't see it working out anywhere near like that. So as not to be a negative nancy, I'll post MY ideas afterwards. Here are the things I see wrong with that:
1 - The equipment / robot, etc... appear to be RIDIUCLOUSLY expensive. 2 - I can only imagine the line that would be caused by having only 1 or 2 of those stations. 3 - No company wants to be forced to conform their design specifications around a government dictated / mandated standard of battery pack design. 4 - Will that station charge all the batteries, or does a truck come and pick them up? 5 - What happens when someone runs out of power on the highway or street. Is that battery pack something that can be changed on the side of the road?
Like Capitalism... I feel that the solution to the energy problem, is less regulation, and more diversity. Car companies have to conform to a LOT of regulations right now. ALMOST ALL of them are good intentioned, but not all of them have a positive result to the manufacturer and society.
What I would like to see is a series of gas stations that offered:
1 - Natural Gas, PNG / CNG. Don't think of today's cars being converted to use them (although that could also be an option), but think of a car that was designed specifically to be a CNG car. You get slightly less mileage (different rating, I know) from CNG than you do from a gallon of gasoline, but if you were to build something like a Smart-Car and design it to work on CNG, you'd probably have a very energy efficient vehicle that runs exceptionally well in the city. As we ALL know... mileage for gasoline vehicles is exceptionally bad in the city... if most of the normal city vehicles were CNG, there would be significantly less emissions, and less gasoline used since there would be more CNG used in place of it.
2 - Gasoline, business as usual.
3 - More E85 stations. Doesn't have to simply be corn ethanol... we can have it made out of moss, seaweed, whatever.
4 - More diesel vehicles need to be produced in the market place.
5 - More battery vehicles with solar power. I know the new Prius comes with solar cells... but if we produced cars made like the smart car, but that were designed specifically to make use of solar cells, you could get a lot more use out of it. For example... someone plugs in their electric vehicle into the outlet at home when they get home at night... maybe it's even just a pad on the garage floor that they roll over that contacts two points which engage the relay and charge it... so lazy people don't have to do anything but park their car on a small pad that they lay down in the garage. So then they leave for work... obviously couldn't be a huge distance until we improve battery technology. Meanwhile, the entire top, hood, and trunk of the car is covered in very energy efficient solar cells... and perhaps the car is made of light-weight materials so it doesn't require as much power to get it moving. As the person drives to work, the solar cells are helping to charge, or at the very least, provide power to the battery while the guy is cruising down the street. Then the person gets to work, and they park their car in the middle of the parking lot where it's sitting there baking in the sun... wow... perfect for the solar cells which would probably fully recharge the battery during the 8-9 hour work day. The person drives home, and plugs the car back in.
I really think we need to do more investment in solar technology... both for the home & business owner, and also for energy efficient vehicles.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The video makes everything look delightful and friendly... but I just don't see it working out anywhere near like that. So as not to be a negative nancy, I'll post MY ideas afterwards. Here are the things I see wrong with that:
1 - The equipment / robot, etc... appear to be RIDIUCLOUSLY expensive. 2 - I can only imagine the line that would be caused by having only 1 or 2 of those stations. 3 - No company wants to be forced to conform their design specifications around a government dictated / mandated standard of battery pack design. 4 - Will that station charge all the batteries, or does a truck come and pick them up? 5 - What happens when someone runs out of power on the highway or street. Is that battery pack something that can be changed on the side of the road?
Like Capitalism... I feel that the solution to the energy problem, is less regulation, and more diversity. Car companies have to conform to a LOT of regulations right now. ALMOST ALL of them are good intentioned, but not all of them have a positive result to the manufacturer and society.
What I would like to see is a series of gas stations that offered:
1 - Natural Gas, PNG / CNG. Don't think of today's cars being converted to use them (although that could also be an option), but think of a car that was designed specifically to be a CNG car. You get slightly less mileage (different rating, I know) from CNG than you do from a gallon of gasoline, but if you were to build something like a Smart-Car and design it to work on CNG, you'd probably have a very energy efficient vehicle that runs exceptionally well in the city. As we ALL know... mileage for gasoline vehicles is exceptionally bad in the city... if most of the normal city vehicles were CNG, there would be significantly less emissions, and less gasoline used since there would be more CNG used in place of it.
2 - Gasoline, business as usual.
3 - More E85 stations. Doesn't have to simply be corn ethanol... we can have it made out of moss, seaweed, whatever.
4 - More diesel vehicles need to be produced in the market place.
5 - More battery vehicles with solar power. I know the new Prius comes with solar cells... but if we produced cars made like the smart car, but that were designed specifically to make use of solar cells, you could get a lot more use out of it. For example... someone plugs in their electric vehicle into the outlet at home when they get home at night... maybe it's even just a pad on the garage floor that they roll over that contacts two points which engage the relay and charge it... so lazy people don't have to do anything but park their car on a small pad that they lay down in the garage. So then they leave for work... obviously couldn't be a huge distance until we improve battery technology. Meanwhile, the entire top, hood, and trunk of the car is covered in very energy efficient solar cells... and perhaps the car is made of light-weight materials so it doesn't require as much power to get it moving. As the person drives to work, the solar cells are helping to charge, or at the very least, provide power to the battery while the guy is cruising down the street. Then the person gets to work, and they park their car in the middle of the parking lot where it's sitting there baking in the sun... wow... perfect for the solar cells which would probably fully recharge the battery during the 8-9 hour work day. The person drives home, and plugs the car back in.
I really think we need to do more investment in solar technology... both for the home & business owner, and also for energy efficient vehicles.
most standards are not g'ment dictated - they are industry agreed ISO and the likes and it is in their capitilistic interests to adhere to agreed standards the g'ment did not spec "D" batteries - yet there they are. and so on. lights. wipers. radios. tires. and it goes on & on. this even crosses nat'l borders. why would ANY manufacturer NOT use a standardized battery system?
it would be like using a smaller than standard fuel fill neck, that no fuel pump nozzle would fit into.
my problem with the battery swap system is the potnetial for scamming the swap shop with bad battery packs. tho, I expect there will be bar coded ID's for follow ups.
5 - More battery vehicles with solar power. I know the new Prius comes with solar cells... but if we produced cars made like the smart car, but that were designed specifically to make use of solar cells, you could get a lot more use out of it. For example... someone plugs in their electric vehicle into the outlet at home when they get home at night... maybe it's even just a pad on the garage floor that they roll over that contacts two points which engage the relay and charge it... so lazy people don't have to do anything but park their car on a small pad that they lay down in the garage. So then they leave for work... obviously couldn't be a huge distance until we improve battery technology. Meanwhile, the entire top, hood, and trunk of the car is covered in very energy efficient solar cells...
I really think we need to do more investment in solar technology... both for the home & business owner, and also for energy efficient vehicles.
Solar cells are fairly low density WRT power output per area. A car-sized array is more decoration than functional, even at the highest efficiencies on the drawing board. Photovoltaic is definitely viable, but better as fixed source generating. A roof-sized array on every house would cut our national generating capacity requirements by a quarter or more, and that's significant. Again, it has to be multiple generating sources, there is no magic bullet one-size-fits-all solution. The sooner we accept that fac the sooner we can start making real progress toward energy independence.
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02:55 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24603 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
most standards are not g'ment dictated - they are industry agreed ISO and the likes and it is in their capitilistic interests to adhere to agreed standards the g'ment did not spec "D" batteries - yet there they are. and so on. lights. wipers. radios. tires. and it goes on & on. this even crosses nat'l borders. why would ANY manufacturer NOT use a standardized battery system?
it would be like using a smaller than standard fuel fill neck, that no fuel pump nozzle would fit into.
my problem with the battery swap system is the potnetial for scamming the swap shop with bad battery packs. tho, I expect there will be bar coded ID's for follow ups.
Don't pick and choose Pyrth, when I talk about regulation, I'm not talking about manufacturing and compatibility standards, I'm talking about stuff like side-impact beams, 5-mph impact bumpers, those kinds of regulations. They all add weight, but sometimes there's better ways about solving these problems...
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
Solar cells are fairly low density WRT power output per area. A car-sized array is more decoration than functional, even at the highest efficiencies on the drawing board. Photovoltaic is definitely viable, but better as fixed source generating. A roof-sized array on every house would cut our national generating capacity requirements by a quarter or more, and that's significant. Again, it has to be multiple generating sources, there is no magic bullet one-size-fits-all solution. The sooner we accept that fac the sooner we can start making real progress toward energy independence.
So, essentially what you're saying is that I'm wrong, but then you repeat everything that I just said, and say it's the solution?
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Don't pick and choose Pyrth, when I talk about regulation, I'm not talking about manufacturing and compatibility standards, I'm talking about stuff like side-impact beams, 5-mph impact bumpers, those kinds of regulations. They all add weight, but sometimes there's better ways about solving these problems...
yes, but the topic was the battery change system
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03:10 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24603 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Until government regulations specifically prohibit me from being allowed to go off on a tangent, I'll post whatever the hell I want.
(don't take it personally Pyrthian, I'm really grouchy today...)
The video makes everything look delightful and friendly... but I just don't see it working out anywhere near like that. So as not to be a negative nancy, I'll post MY ideas afterwards. Here are the things I see wrong with that:
Wow you see a lot wrong but do you realize it's being done? Your comments seem to be preconceived opinions and not based on fact
The problem you get with the volt is GM made it out to be a lot more than it was prior to production. They said it was going to get 2XX miles per charge... It struggles to make 80 miles. they said it was going to be cheap...... Well it is a GM were we really supposed to believe that? They said it was a plug in and charge.... Where the hell did a whole charging system that needs to be installed into a house come from? The volt is a failure all the way around. I know its the 1st of its kind but for god sakes you could convert a Fiero to electric propulsion for a fraction of what it cost's to buy a volt and it will still plug into a conventional outlet.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: So, essentially what you're saying is that I'm wrong, but then you repeat everything that I just said, and say it's the solution?
I'm sorry you read it that way, that was not my intent. I do know enough to comment on the photovoltaic on the roof of the car part (it's not viable) and was only offering what I know on the subject.
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03:54 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
1 - The equipment / robot, etc... appear to be RIDIUCLOUSLY expensive. 2 - I can only imagine the line that would be caused by having only 1 or 2 of those stations. 3 - No company wants to be forced to conform their design specifications around a government dictated / mandated standard of battery pack design. 4 - Will that station charge all the batteries, or does a truck come and pick them up? 5 - What happens when someone runs out of power on the highway or street. Is that battery pack something that can be changed on the side of the road?
6. How big of a facility will be needed? You have to have a place to store all these batteries. Figure the average city gas station see's how many cars per day?
6. How big of a facility will be needed? You have to have a place to store all these batteries. Figure the average city gas station see's how many cars per day?
Amazing that you don't see any parellel to gas satations.
How big to store all the batteries? Where do you think the gas in a pump comes from? Plus the batteries are rechargable so probably not really that big a facility.
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04:07 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by JazzMan:I'm sorry you read it that way, that was not my intent. I do know enough to comment on the photovoltaic on the roof of the car part (it's not viable) and was only offering what I know on the subject.
Imagine a big parking lot with a hundred (or more) EVs (electric vehicles). It's a clear, sunny day, as is often the case in large parts of the country. Each vehicle has an array of solar cells covering its roof. The vehicles are all connected via two-way charging stations to the main power grid. The solar arrays on the roofs of the vehicles are recharging the batteries in each vehicle, but when they generate excess current (when the vehicle's battery is fully recharged), the excess current is fed back into the grid. If it's a cloudy day, the vehicle batteries are being recharged from the grid.
OK, that's a scenario that is farther out into the future. But it seems technologically feasible. I saw it suggested in a magazine article.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-03-2011).]
6. How big of a facility will be needed? You have to have a place to store all these batteries. Figure the average city gas station see's how many cars per day?
7. Whats to stop someone from fooling with those packs... I dont think the government can legaly say you cant mess with anything on ones own car so whos to say you wont get some idiot who takes the battery out takes it apart screws it up puts it back into the car and brings it to one of these stations for another one.
Also what happens we end up having a shortage of sulfuric acid? batteries dont last forever.
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 03-03-2011).]
7. Whats to stop someone from fooling with those packs... I dont think the government can legaly say you cant mess with anything on ones own car so whos to say you wont get some idiot who takes the battery out takes it apart screws it up puts it back into the car and brings it to one of these stations for another one.
Wow love all the reasoning why it won't work but.... IT'S BEING DONE ALREADY.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-03-2011).]
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04:11 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by pontiackid86: 7. Whats to stop someone from fooling with those packs... I dont think the government can legaly say you cant mess with anything on ones own car so whos to say you wont get some idiot who takes the battery out takes it apart screws it up puts it back into the car and brings it to one of these stations for another one.
Why would anybody do that?
Anyway, the charging station will have circuitry to run diagnostics on the batteries that are exchanged. It would happen automatically.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-03-2011).]
Anyway, the charging station will have circuitry to run diagnostics on the batteries that are exchanged. It would happen automatically.
Anyone could do it.... See if they could build there own. See if they could make it last longer. See if they can get better preformance out. Also since it will be a government mandated design you better believe there is going to be all kinds of restrictions and tracking about them. speed governors GPS etc. You dont think people will try to find ways around that?
Give me a good old gas engine any day and i'll be a happy camper.
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04:21 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
In underground tanks. I suppose the facility could use underground storage for the batteries aswell. I never said I saw no parrallels. Honestly though, how large of a facility would be needed to change, store and recharge all the batteries? Like I said, how many cars on average get fuel at a gas station each day? I know in the 5 minutes I spent at one gas station today I saw atleast 16 cars. Granted they aren't going to have that traffic consistantly throughout the day, but I would bet some of the busier inner city stations see well over 500 cars per day.
How about this, in places like California where they already have "rolling black-outs" because of high electricity demand, how much more of a drain is it going to be putting onto the power grid to run these types of facilities?
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04:23 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24603 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Being done right now, and working out in the end are two different things. I'd be thrilled if this worked out, but I see some major hurtles that you'd run into. As I said though (in my list of other possibilities), there are easier things that we could be doing anyway. But hey... I'm NEVER going to blast a company that's attempting to change it, the capitalistic way... I've always said, you let the market direct itself... and that's exactly what this is (your Better Place post). So I'm certainly not going to complain about it... but I'd think they wouldn't have to do it if there were more alternatives.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
I'm sorry you read it that way, that was not my intent. I do know enough to comment on the photovoltaic on the roof of the car part (it's not viable) and was only offering what I know on the subject.
Well, you inferred some things that I was never suggesting. At no point did I say the solar panels would power the entire car... I said it could be used to recharge the battery. If the entire hood, roof, and trunk lid was covered in solar panels (they actually have a paintable solar cell that can be molded to any form now), that it could be used to recharge the battery while the car sits outside in the parking lot for 8-9 hours. And as I said, you automatically assume that I'm talking about like a normal sedan. Making the vehicles out of lighter materials will mean that less power needs to be used to move the vehicle.
I know I typed out a lot, but nothing I said was at all unrealistic.
Originally posted by Khw: In underground tanks. I suppose the facility could use underground storage for the batteries aswell. I never said I saw no parrallels. Honestly though, how large of a facility would be needed to change, store and recharge all the batteries? Like I said, how many cars on average get fuel at a gas station each day? I know in the 5 minutes I spent at one gas station today I saw atleast 16 cars. Granted they aren't going to have that traffic consistantly throughout the day, but I would bet some of the busier inner city stations see well over 500 cars per day.
How about this, in places like California where they already have "rolling black-outs" because of high electricity demand, how much more of a drain is it going to be putting onto the power grid to run these types of facilities?
by the looks of the above setup, a battery swap is quicker than a fill-up tho, I agree the grid-load is heavy.
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04:34 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
The video looks more like science fiction to me. That is 50 years down the road if then. Why bother with electric cars at all, just walk into you personal teleporter.
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05:08 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
The video looks more like science fiction to me. That is 50 years down the road if then. Why bother with electric cars at all, just walk into you personal teleporter.
In underground tanks. I suppose the facility could use underground storage for the batteries aswell. I never said I saw no parrallels. Honestly though, how large of a facility would be needed to change, store and recharge all the batteries? Like I said, how many cars on average get fuel at a gas station each day? I know in the 5 minutes I spent at one gas station today I saw atleast 16 cars. Granted they aren't going to have that traffic consistantly throughout the day, but I would bet some of the busier inner city stations see well over 500 cars per day.
How about this, in places like California where they already have "rolling black-outs" because of high electricity demand, how much more of a drain is it going to be putting onto the power grid to run these types of facilities?
You do understand though that the batteries are rechargable so the need for some massive inventory is not there. http://www.betterplace.com/
Being done right now, and working out in the end are two different things. I'd be thrilled if this worked out, but I see some major hurtles that you'd run into.
Yup they're opinions alright but most of your list of things that you see wrong are in fact wrong itself, like I said more like preconceived opinions without researching facts.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-03-2011).]
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05:40 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Originally posted by newf: You do understand though that the batteries are rechargable so the need for some massive inventory is not there. http://www.betterplace.com/
And how long does it take to recharge one? If it's 8 or more hours then at the very least a large inventory will be required.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 03-03-2011).]
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05:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
Originally posted by newf: You do understand though that the batteries are rechargable so the need for some massive inventory is not there. http://www.betterplace.com/
But they don't recharge in 5 minutes. If you service 60 cars an hour during the busy part of the day, you need an inventory large enough to replace all of their batteries without relying on ones turned in that day. So you need room for those 60 batteries, plus room for all the batteries you took in prior to this single hour we are looking at, so they can charge. Plus you need room for enough batteries to get the 100+ cars you service back out of the shop. You will need to be able to house a couple hundred batteries. Say 100 on charge and 100 ready to go in cars. Obviously there are variables, but the idea is the same. Plus, your argument "IT IS HAPPENING!!!!!11!!!1one!!!!" is a non argument once you scale this up. It works on a small scale with the few early adopters who are far enough between that they don't really tax the system. Plus, these early adopters jumped into this technology because they "believe in it", as in...its a cause to them. Since its a cause to them, they are willing to go out of their way to accommodate its short comings because they are saving the planet and the inconvenience is worth it to be better than everybody else. They are willing to wait in line more so than I would be on my way to work, etc. ITS HAPPENING NOWW!!!QWWEE@Q!!!!!!!!!! doesn't mean it is up to the national scale....
But they don't recharge in 5 minutes. If you service 60 cars an hour during the busy part of the day, you need an inventory large enough to replace all of their batteries without relying on ones turned in that day. So you need room for those 60 batteries, plus room for all the batteries you took in prior to this single hour we are looking at, so they can charge. Plus you need room for enough batteries to get the 100+ cars you service back out of the shop. You will need to be able to house a couple hundred batteries. Say 100 on charge and 100 ready to go in cars. Obviously there are variables, but the idea is the same. Plus, your argument "IT IS HAPPENING!!!!!11!!!1one!!!!" is a non argument once you scale this up. It works on a small scale with the few early adopters who are far enough between that they don't really tax the system. Plus, these early adopters jumped into this technology because they "believe in it", as in...its a cause to them. Since its a cause to them, they are willing to go out of their way to accommodate its short comings because they are saving the planet and the inconvenience is worth it to be better than everybody else. They are willing to wait in line more so than I would be on my way to work, etc. ITS HAPPENING NOWW!!!QWWEE@Q!!!!!!!!!! doesn't mean it is up to the national scale....
Sounds like you got it all figured out, why not write the site an email to tell them it won't work.
Not sure where I ever said it's ready to go national but to claim it won't work without even looking at it seems silly to me. The guy behind a better place is a very succesfull businessman so I wouldn't dismiss it just yet.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-03-2011).]
And how long does it take to recharge one? If it's 8 or more hours then at the very least a large inventory will be required.
Yeah a large inventory, how is that a problem? Did you see the size of the battery pack? Think the facility will have to be bigger than a petroleum station? You can probably write an email to tell them it's fruitless as well.
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06:02 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
You seem to believe that since this group is putting the effort into starting this, it must be viable. If that were the case, millions of startup would be making millions right now. People have novel ideas all the time. These people are getting into this early because thats the best way to make money at it, but the issue is that you have to get in as early as possible without getting in before the technology is viable. Don't you think that everyone...in the wooooorld.... who doesn't work for an oil co. would LOVE to drive a car that costs next to nothing to power? Don't you think we would all LOVE a sports car that makes 100% power 100$ of the time? Don't you think we would all LOVE a car that runs on magic and happy thoughts? Just because this company is raising capital doesn't mean their business model is ready for the national stage.
Edit: because somebody narrowed in on a single word that had no impact on the real point and decided it changed everything and, because of this, ignored the actually information/ideas being presented.
[This message has been edited by TommyRocker (edited 03-03-2011).]
You seem to believe that since this group is putting the effort into starting this, it must be viable. If that were the case, millions of startup would be making millions right now. People have novel ideas all the time. These people are getting into this early because thats the best way to make money at it, but the issue is that you have to get in as early as possible without getting in before the technology is viable. Don't you think that everyone in America who doesn't work for an oil co. would LOVE to drive a car that costs next to nothing to power? Don't you think we would all LOVE a sports car that makes 100% power 100$ of the time? Don't you think we would all LOVE a car that runs on magic and happy thoughts? Just because this company is raising capital doesn't mean their business model is ready for the national stage.
You are picking at unimportant parts and ignoring the reality of the situation. I will edit it to suit your purposes, and it won't make a bit of difference.
The arabs and the big oil ceo's are too smart to let your gas prices rise too much. It's being done in coutries that actually want to free themselves from foreign oil.
You are picking at unimportant parts and ignoring the reality of the situation. I will edit it to suit your purposes, and it won't make a bit of difference.
Yeah you're right the only viable solution is sticking with century old technology, having our gas prices and pocket books being at the whim of the oil futures market and keeping the middle east shieks and oil ceo's rich and powerful. Nah no need for change.
I look forward to the threads if unrest starts in Saudi Arabia or Iran and your gas prices go through the roof.
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06:25 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24603 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Yeah you're right the only viable solution is sticking with century old technology, having our gas prices and pocket books being at the whim of the oil futures market and keeping the middle east shieks and oil ceo's rich and powerful. Nah no need for change.
I look forward to the threads if unrest starts in Saudi Arabia or Iran and your gas prices go through the roof.
