It appears the #1 reactor at Fukushima is going to get a concrete "cap" encasement per the lastest press conference. Still not able to verify on the net. It appears that anything on the net is getting delayed.

Also, this advancing of capping the #1 reactor may be in response to increased tetonic activity which has the Japanese fearing another imminent +7 earthquake.

So they cap it off in a hurry and create future problems? They just need to flood the core with boric acid and keep the thing cool. Capping it does not make the chance for a melt down any more slim as they are 2 separate separate structures. It like laying a slap over Lava. You put it down but there is still a problem under the concrete. It would be nice to get some actually real info on it. What percentage the rods were, condition of pumps and how much they are pumping. Granted capping it will greatly reduce the amount of radiation being released but that will be void it it truly melts down.

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: So they cap it off in a hurry and create future problems? They just need to flood the core with boric acid and keep the thing cool. Capping it does not make the chance for a melt down any more slim as they are 2 separate separate structures. It like laying a slap over Lava. You put it down but there is still a problem under the concrete. It would be nice to get some actually real info on it. What percentage the rods were, condition of pumps and how much they are pumping. Granted capping it will greatly reduce the amount of radiation being released but that will be void it it truly melts down.

lolz, where did you study nuclear science?

87antuzzi I guess you are too young to remember Chernobyl and what they did after it happened. I also don't think you remember the fallout it created and it's consecuences. Google it some time, you will be surprised at what happened back then.
Here is one quick link for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: lolz, where did you study nuclear science?

Nowhere, but I did stay at a holiday in express

They have been flooding this reactor with boron for two days. Also, they have been pushing sea water into this reactor since the batteries failed to maintain the pumps. The biggest difference between this situation and Chernobyl is that there was not containment in those kind of Russian power plants. Japanese power plants are built with two containment vessels. Some are suggesting that the Japanese are not being forthcoming. That is their culture and their language is by nature ambigous.

In regards to the massive human sacrifice it took to cap Chernobyl, hopefully what we are seeing is that the Japanese government is going to not let this get that far before they create a "big brick of radioactive goo" on their coast.

I would also suggest that our government better be a forceful advocate of making Japan contain their issue to the surrounding region because the only neighbors downwind of Japan that counts is the United States and Canada.

[This message has been edited by Wudman (edited 03-13-2011).]

Thing is... They are going to have a "Big brick of radioactive goo" anyway at this point. If they do not cap it, it will be much much much worse.

[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 03-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 8Ball: Thing is... They are going to have a "Big brick of radioactive goo" anyway at this point. If they do not cap it, it will be much much much worse.

Exactly, worse, as with Chernobyl, they are going to have to maintain that with more concrete down the road and that is on the ocean in an area that appears to be becoming more tetonically active.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/s...environment-12726628

Latest report on BBC News website doesn't say anything about covering any of the reactors with concrete.

?

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-13-2011).]

I'm thinking they're going to cap the reactors. It's only a question of when. With this much damage, I don't see them being repaired.
If so, regardless of when they do it, they'll end up with a big brick of radioactive goo encased in concrete. That's the idea - keep it contained.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I'm thinking they're going to cap the reactors. It's only a question of when. With this much damage, I don't see them being repaired. ...

One of the posters in the other thread said that when they flood them with seawater and boric acid, they're pretty much toast. At that point, they're just trying to keep them cool and absorb the radioactivity until the fuel is spent. I suspect the ones that they've flooded will be capped. They're done.

I have to add...
The Japanese got first hand experience with radiation about 60 years ago. I expect that they are not going to take any chances with this.

Having said all that...
I'm surprised that they didn't have any contingencies in place to keep the generators running. It was said earlier that it appears they didn't anticipate the tsunamis flooding the generators after an earthquake. I really wonder what they could have done anyway, though.
Always easy to second guess.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/s...environment-12726628 Latest report on BBC News website doesn't say anything about covering any of the reactors with concrete. ?

That is the problem with the whole news process despite the Internet. I am seeing a massive lag on information, plus the news channels tend to rally around "official sources". In Japan, an "official source" is unlikely to say anything until someone sees the cement truck. As mentioned in other responses, flooding with boron and other similar substances as well as the fact that they have been pumping sea water in is a clear flag that the plant is beyond repair or containment. As also posted it is a matter of when, not if.

I am watching multiple channels and sites on this as well as have my own personal nuclear scientist friend throwing techincal information my way. You have to read beyond any one source and even then, you have to take clues from what they are saying to figure out the real implications. Most journalists are barely compentent when it comes to writing and then they have editors upon editors to dumb down the news.

I would suggest the implications of sea water, boron, impending additional earthquakes, coastal location, massive evacuations, two explosions (that alone suggest the Japanese are not forthcoming with data), and the next neighbor around the world, support they are preparing to cap.

Plus I did hear a report, official or otherwise that this was a process in planning.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Having said all that... I'm surprised that they didn't have any contingencies in place to keep the generators running. It was said earlier that it appears they didn't anticipate the tsunamis flooding the generators after an earthquake. I really wonder what they could have done anyway, though. Always easy to second guess.

From what I've been able to gather they had primary electric power, backup generators and battery backup in case the generators failed.
Considering this is the worst quake in Japan's history and one of the worst ever recorded, there's only so much you can plan for.
The farther off site your backup power is, the more likely transmission lines will be cut.
Put it on-site and it gets hit with whatever hits the reactor.

quote Originally posted by Wudman: The biggest difference between this situation and Chernobyl is that there was not containment in those kind of Russian power plants.

There were many differences between Chernobyl and the Japanese reactors, but the design details of the containment vessel is only one of them. Rather than being a dome, the reactor at Chernobyl was located in a large turbine hall covered by a flat reinforced concrete roof several meters thick.

Probably the most significant difference is that Chernobyl was a graphite-moderated reactor, notoriously unstable at low power levels, while I think the Japanese reactors are all boiling-water designs. Once the Chernobyl reactor overheated and the resulting hydrogen explosion had blown the roof completely off, the superheated graphite (being carbon, after all) burned furiously upon exposure to air. Convection and the smoke plume from the fire transported highly radioactive debris over a very large area of eastern Europe, where it fell back to earth as "hot" rain which permanently deposited radioactive solids in the soil.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 03-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: ...Considering this is the worst quake in Japan's history and one of the worst ever recorded, there's only so much you can plan for. ...

Yeah. You're right.
I don't think that anyone ever expected anything of this magnitude.

Frightening thing is, this could be California tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Yeah. You're right. I don't think that anyone ever expected anything of this magnitude. Frightening thing is, this could be California tomorrow.

A picture I took late last year leaving out of LAX. Do you think there is any plan here to manage an evacuation after a 3 minute warning?

quote Originally posted by Wudman: Do you think there is any plan here to manage an evacuation after a 3 minute warning?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StHwAffUNxo

Edit - No.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-13-2011).]

Mass evacuations in the USA are unbelievably tedious, dangerous, slow, inefficient, and unorganized. I've been thru several hurricane evacs, involving several millions people each time--with days advance warning--they were horrible each time. A Tsunami evac with just a few hrs advance warning? Not a chance for success here--people insist on loading up and taking everything they own. And discourteous--Gawd Almighty--you haven't seen the worst of humanaity till you've been in a mass evacuation.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Mass evacuations in the USA are unbelievably tedious, dangerous, slow, inefficient, and unorganized. I've been thru several hurricane evacs, involving several millions people each time--with days advance warning--they were horrible each time. A Tsunami evac with just a few hrs advance warning? Not a chance for success here--people insist on loading up and taking everything they own. And discourteous--Gawd Almighty--you haven't seen the worst of humanaity till you've been in a mass evacuation.

And God can't even help you if you need gas.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StHwAffUNxo Edit - No.

Funny?: Absolutely
Appropriate?: No, Yes, Sadly reality
Overall gut reaction: I needed a damn laugh after the last few days and the BS I have been going through editing another video...

Thanks
Now back to the latest tsunami videos....
Beyond belief. At times technology really, really sucks. I can't find the latest videos uploaded yet. Will post when they show.


Now a volcano though it has been active, may be related to regional tectonic activity.

quote Originally posted by Wudman: . In regards to the massive human sacrifice it took to cap Chernobyl, hopefully what we are seeing is that the Japanese government is going to not let this get that far before they create a "big brick of radioactive goo" on their coast.

Let's hope it all ends well. Here's a link to the graveyard for vehicles used at Chernobyl.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/...ly-beautiful-photos.

quote Originally posted by Wudman: Funny?: Absolutely Appropriate?: No, Yes, Sadly reality Overall gut reaction: I needed a damn laugh after the last few days and the BS I have been going through editing another video...

I thought about embedding, but just did the link.
It's absurd, at best. But in reality, I don't think any response that we could muster would be any more effective. Sad, really.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I thought about embedding, but just did the link. It's absurd, at best. But in reality, I don't think any response that we could muster would be any more effective. Sad, really.

I'd give you a plus, but I already did long ago.

Another explosion this time at unit #3
http://www.canada.com/news/...e/4433354/story.html

Yep, and again, the Japanese officials pretty much downplayed it according the the Reuters article re the latest explosion, which i posted in the other thread. There seems to be pattern there. Here's a timeline of events, and it's easy to see conflicts in what happened and what the officials said happened.

(below timeline of events has not been updated to include most recent explosion)

quote Below is a timeline of statements made by Japanese authorities and the complex's owner, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO), after the quake struck on Friday, the strongest tremor ever recorded in Japan at a magnitude of 8.9. FRIDAY, MARCH 11 (All local times, when reported by Reuters) 19:46 - The government reveals a cooling problem at TEPCO's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant on the northeast coast which bore the brunt of the quake and tsunami. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says the government has declared an emergency as a precaution but he says there is no radioactive leak. 21:34 - TEPCO confirms water levels falling inside reactors at the plant, and says it is trying to avert the exposure of nuclear fuel rods by restoring power to its emergency power system so that it can pump water inside the reactors. 21:49 - Jiji news agency says evacuation area around the plant is extended to 3 km from 2 km and quotes authorities as saying no radioactive leak has been confirmed. 21:55 - The government says radiation has leaked from one of the plant's reactors. 22:45 - Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) says Japan advised that a heightened state of alert has been declared but no release of radiation had been detected. It says Japanese authorities also reported a fire at the Onagawa nuclear power plant, which has since been extinguished. "They say Onagawa, Fukushima-Daini and Tokai nuclear power plants were also shut down automatically, and no radiation release has been detected," the statement says. SATURDAY 00:38 - The World Nuclear Association, the main nuclear industry body, says it understands the situation is under control, and water is being pumped into the reactor's cooling system. An analyst at the association says he understood a back-up battery power system had been brought online after about an hour, and begun pumping water back into the cooling system. 00:40 - U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says the United States has transported coolant to the stricken nuclear plant. "We just had our Air Force assets in Japan transport some really important coolant to one of the nuclear plants," Clinton says at a meeting of the President's Export Council. 01:27 - Jiji says Fukushima prefecture expects cooling function at the plant to be restored by 1630 GMT (0130 local) 01:46 - Jiji quotes TEPCO as saying pressure inside the No. 1 reactor at the plant has been rising, with the risk of a radiation leak. It plans to take measures to release the pressure, the report says 02:00 - Kyodo news agency quotes TEPCO as saying pressure inside the No. 1 reactor rose to 1.5 times designed capacity. 03:04 - Japan's nuclear safety watchdog confirms TEPCO is considering steps to lower the pressure in a container in the No. 1 reactor. A spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says it is unknown whether radiation levels are high in the container, which is inside a turbine building. 03:13 - Kyodo news agency quotes Japan's trade minister as saying a radiation leak could take place at the plant. 03:14 - Cabinet Secretary Edano says TEPCO realizes the need to release pressure inside the plant, that this could cause a small radiation leak. 06:37 - U.S. officials say the U.S. military did not provide any coolant for the Japanese nuclear plant, despite Clinton's earlier remarks. They say U.S. Air Force "assets" in Japan delivered coolant to a nuclear plant. One U.S. official says Japan had asked the United States for the coolant but ultimately handled the matter on its own. 07:19 - TEPCO says it has lost its ability to control pressure in some reactors of a second nuclear power plant at its Fukushima facility. Pressure is stable inside the reactors but rising in the containment vessels, a spokesman says, although he did not know if there would be a need to release pressure at the plant at this point, which would involve a release of radiation. 09:34 - Kyodo news agency says Japan has begun evacuating about 20,000 people from vicinity of the nuclear plants. 10:07 - TEPCO has begun releasing pressure from No. 1 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, the Trade Ministry says. TEPCO says it will prepare for the release of pressure from the second nuclear plant, the Fukushima Daini plant, as pressure mounts. TEPCO and the authorities battle to contain rising pressure at the plants. They say thousands of residents in the area have been evacuated. 17:47 - Cabinet Secretary Edano confirms an explosion and radiation leak at Fukushima Daiichi. "We are looking into the cause and the situation and we'll make that public when we have further information," Edano says. "At present, we think 10 km evacuation is appropriate." 20:43 - TEPCO plans to fill the leaking reactor with sea water to cool it and reduce pressure in the unit, Edano says. "The nuclear reactor is surrounded by a steel reactor container, which is then surrounded by a concrete building," Edano says. "The concrete building collapsed. We found out that the reactor container inside didn't explode." "We've confirmed that the reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn't occur inside the reactor container. As such there was no large amount of radiation leakage outside," he adds. "At this point, there has been no major change to the level of radiation leakage outside (from before and after the explosion), so we'd like everyone to respond calmly." "We've decided to fill the reactor container with sea water. Trade Minister Kaieda has instructed us to do so. By doing this, we will use boric acid to prevent criticality." Edano says it will take about five to 10 hours to fill the reactor core with sea water and around 10 days to complete the process. He says due to the falling cooling-water level, hydrogen was generated and leaked into a space between the building and the container. It mixed with oxygen and exploded. 22:21 - The IAEA quoted Japanese authorities as saying they are preparing to distribute iodine to people living near the stricken nuclear power complex. Iodine can be used to help protect the body from radioactive poisoning. SUNDAY 00:49 A nuclear accident in Japan on Saturday rates as less serious than both the Three Mile Island accident in 1979 and the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster, Japan's nuclear safety agency said. An official at the agency said it has rated the incident at 4 under the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale. Three Mile Island was rated 5 while Chernobyl was rated 7 on the 1 to 7 scale, the official said. 05:41 - In a 20-km radius around the Fukushima Daiichi complex, an estimated 110,000 people have been evacuated, the IAEA says. In a 10-km radius around the nearby Fukushima Daini complex, about 30,000 people have been evacuated. 06:20 - The number of individuals exposed to radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi complex could reach as high as 160, an official of the Japan Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. 10:38 - Kyodo quotes TEPCO as saying radiation levels have risen above safe limits around the complex and that the firm has informed the government of an "emergency situation". It did not mean an immediate threat to human health, TEPCO says. 15:23 - Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano says there is a risk of an explosion at a building housing at the Fukushima Daiichi complex where an explosion on Saturday blew off the roof off another reactor building. 23:37 - Jiji quotes TEPCO as saying it is preparing to put sea water into the No.2 reactor at its Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. The company is already injecting sea water into the No.1 and No.3 units at the plant to cool them down and reduce pressure inside reactor container vessels.

according to NYT the aircraft carrier uss ronald reagan went through an atomic cloud .
crew got a radiation dosis of a whole month in one hour ...

Fukushima I Nuclear Powerplant - Reactor 2 coolant level is sinking , cooling is offline

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 03-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Fieromaniac: according to NYT the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan went through an atomic cloud . crew got a radiation dosis of a whole month in one hour ... Fukushima I Nuclear Powerplant - Reactor 2 coolant level is sinking , cooling is offline

An explosion ripped the roof off # 3 while we in the USA slept. Reactor core containment vessel said to still be intact.



TOKYO — An explosion Monday afternoon ripped through Unit 3 of the Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station in northeastern Japan and destroyed the roof of a reactor building. The Japanese government quickly imposed a 12 mile quarantine and required residents to immediately evacuate, but said those beyond were not at risk.

Japanese television footage shows smoke rising from the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant's Unit 3 in Okumamachi, Fukushima Prefecture, northern Japan, Monday.

The explosion sent a huge column of smoke into the air and wounded 11 workers.

Japan's s chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, said the reactor's inner containment vessel holding nuclear rods is intact, allaying some fears of the risk to the environment and public.

The No. 3 reactor had been under emergency watch for a possible explosion as pressure built up there following a hydrogen blast Saturday in the facility's Unit 1. Both were caused by earthquake damage.

So far more than 180,000 people have evacuated the area. As many as 1,500 have been scanned for radiation.

The explosion also leaked a radioactive plume into the air, causing the U.S. Navy to move ships and aircraft away from the area of the Fukushima plant. The aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan was about 100 miles offshore when it detected the radiation.

The Navy emphasized that the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship's personnel was less than the radiation exposure they would have gotten from one month's exposure to the sun.

The levels were very low and were only found on the clothing and on the skin of one sailor, said Lt. Gen. Burton Field, commander of U.S. Forces Japan. "We scrub it with soap and water."

At a news conference Monday afternoon, the U.S. ambassador to Japan, John Roos, said U.S. experts are working closely with Japan and that staff from the Department of Energy and the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission are consulting with the nation. The staff includes experts in boiling-water nuclear plants, the type used at Fukushima.

The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said there is no danger of radiation drifting as far as the West Coast of the United States.

Four nuclear plants in northeastern Japan have reported damage. Operators have lost the ability to cool three reactors at Dai-ichi and three more at another nearby complex using usual procedures, after the quake knocked out power and the tsunami swamped backup generators.

Japan has begun a program of rolling blackouts to conserve power to make up for power lost from the nuclear plants. Each lasts for about three hours.

In Narita, southeast of Tokyo, office workers Monday said they would stay in their darkened offices to ensure that nothing would go amiss during the blackouts, which were planned for the afternoon when daylight was still available.

The nation's main airport remained open, running on reserve batteries and fuel, but the electric trains running to and from it were stilled, causing multi-hour waits for busses into Tokyo and other areas....[/quote]

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-14-2011).]

Fukushima I Reactor 2 is now completely dry , several attempts to fill up the reactor with seawater failed .

@ maryjane did you watched the video of the second explosion ?
compare it to the first one , it looks really a lot more like something else blew up and not only the hydrogen.
in one video its more than 3 times higher than the cloud of reactor 1 and it has kind of a mushroom form .

some newschannels states that the US Fleet aborted its actions on japanese coasts .....

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 03-14-2011).]

No, I didn't watch either videos---I am on dialup and it would take forever. Maybe I'll see it on TV later today. It's certainly a serious turn of events from what I am reading on BBC's website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/w...sia-pacific-12733393

This pic tho, may be more sensationalist than the situation warrants--it's just hard to say what is factual and what is rumor/sensation etc. I have a radiation background (no pun intended) in contaminated site remediation 4 yrs duration as an RSO, but certified only in low level NORM. It gives me a pretty good understanding of the hazards and the safety measures needed, but nothing like what these plants could produce, since the radionuculide daughters involved will be more numerous than just R 226/228/Pb. Mostly decay process alpha emitters.
No Cesium, Plutonium etc for me.

But radiation of one kind or another is all around us, more for some places than others. Coal, coal ash (flyash), older pottery etc, some containing R226 with a 1600 yr halflife. There are places in the US. where natural backgroud radiation levels are higher than what is allowed in some industries.

Three reactor in critical emergencies. One is enough. Most news services I am watching appear to be mixing up facts and the Japanese are still saying the radiation is falling yet...

They have warned US ships to bear off their shore?

As noted here and via various sources, it seems the Japanese are still not sharing accurate data. I saw that last explosion where they are saying the nuclear rods are "uncovered". That flash appeared to be a more contained explosion.

Also, the Japanese are saying that all the containment vessels are intact. I'd suggest there is plenty of information suggesting otherwise. If the radiation reports are true that the crew of US carrier got a monthly dose in an hour there is a bit more going on than venting steam and hydrogen gas explosions.

Here is a map that I created for one of my videos....

If #2 is dry it would suffer melt down. I haven't heard that

The way I see it, it would make no sense to pour concrete on an intact reactor vessel.

A monthly dose in one hour is not a very high level of radiation.

I think quite a number of things are being blow out of proportion.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: If #2 is dry it would suffer melt down. I haven't heard that The way I see it, it would make no sense to pour concrete on an intact reactor vessel. A monthly dose in one hour is not a very high level of radiation. I think quite a number of things are being blow out of proportion.

Some things are being blown out of proportion, but there also seems to be the feeling that others are being minimized to the extent of outright lies for the sake of curtailing panic, both in the local populace, and possibly in regards to the fragile Japanese economy and Nikkei stock exchange. Honda/Nissan/Toyota//Tepco/Sony etc are all down significantly today, as well as insurers world wide. The only things /\ are gold and Asian construction firms.

Yea,I saw on the news this morning that the #3 reactor has exposed cooling rods and now has a greater chance of the Chernobyl efect,melting into the Earth.The U.S. air craft carrier,is 100 miles off shore and can actualley detect low level radiation.The death toll is expected to reach 10,000 or more.
some news and videos:
http://www.huffingtonpost.c...ricity_n_835096.html
Hit the" bypass this message",on the link below,for some reason I couldnt get it to work properly.
http://www.conservativerefo...ud-off-japan-s-coast

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 03-14-2011).]

A total of 6 reactors with cooling problems in same region. Fukushima Daini "Less Severe" with three reactors in lower levels of emergency. No cooling at three of it's reactors.

The USS Ronald Reagan was 60 miles off shore when radiation detected caused the US fleet to reposition.

17 crew of helicopters doing relief missions in area exposed to low levels.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: One of the posters in the other thread said that when they flood them with seawater and boric acid, they're pretty much toast. At that point, they're just trying to keep them cool and absorb the radioactivity until the fuel is spent. I suspect the ones that they've flooded will be capped. They're done. I have to add... The Japanese got first hand experience with radiation about 60 years ago. I expect that they are not going to take any chances with this. Having said all that... I'm surprised that they didn't have any contingencies in place to keep the generators running. It was said earlier that it appears they didn't anticipate the tsunamis flooding the generators after an earthquake. I really wonder what they could have done anyway, though. Always easy to second guess.

That's the problem with human experience: There can be no perfection. Trying to predict all the possible ways a failure or failures can happen is literally impossible. The consequences of those inevitable failures vary with the inherent dangerousness of whatever technology is being engineered. Some technologies can create worldwide consequences from a single geographical point and some cannot. One of the biggest problems we have as a species is the hubris we show in our engineering. We think we can make the perfect solution yet history shows that has not ever been the case. We keep trying thinking to ourselves, "Next time will be perfect, I swear!", somehow thinking that will actually be the case.

------------------
Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: ..."Next time will be perfect, I swear!"...

May I suggest...
"Next time I will bee perfact, I sware..."

Six total reactors at two of eleven affected power plants in some sort of emergency. I would suggest the Japanese are measuring radiation at the height of a breeze in the windward side of the reactors.

Also, how about a summary of the status of all affected power plants. At this point Japanese national pride and security should defer to the right of the communities downwind, in particular the US to know exactly what is coming apart and where.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: That's the problem with human experience: There can be no perfection. Trying to predict all the possible ways a failure or failures can happen is literally impossible. The consequences of those inevitable failures vary with the inherent dangerousness of whatever technology is being engineered. Some technologies can create worldwide consequences from a single geographical point and some cannot. One of the biggest problems we have as a species is the hubris we show in our engineering. We think we can make the perfect solution yet history shows that has not ever been the case. We keep trying thinking to ourselves, "Next time will be perfect, I swear!", somehow thinking that will actually be the case.

There comes a point where the saferty features can overcomplicate a design, maybe even prevent the dang machine from workin'...like when sensors that detect something break down and fail...

I believe an emergency shutdown was initiated in all these reactors--scramed. You still have to be able to do something with the heat--even in scram condition.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: ... it appears they didn't anticipate the tsunamis flooding the generators after an earthquake. I really wonder what they could have done anyway, though. Always easy to second guess.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: There can be no perfection. Trying to predict all the possible ways a failure or failures can happen is literally impossible.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: There comes a point where the saferty features can overcomplicate a design, maybe even prevent the dang machine from workin'...

Exactly! You can design something to be fail-safe under any foreseeable circumstance, but what about the unforeseeable? What happens when you design beyond the largest historical event plus some large safety factor? Will such a design be achievable? Will it be economically feasible? Will it even work? There can be too much of a good thing, even "safety."

Example: I have read that the largest earthquake ever recorded in Japan prior to the current event had a magnitude of about 8.6 on the Richter scale. Most sources rate the current event at R8.9, and I have seen a later figure from one credible source that rates it at R9.1. Since the Richter scale is logarithmic, R8.9 represents 2X the earth movement of an R8.6 event, and R9.1 represents 3.2X the earth movement of an R8.6 event. How do you design something to withstand more than 3X the worst case in recorded history? Even if you can achieve it, how do you justify the cost of such a design?