I may not be able to change human nature, but I will continue to try changing the behavior of individuals on this forum who act like asses by bringing politics into everything and, more importantly, do so in an uncivil and undecorus manner. I'll do so by cajoling, pointing, commenting, observing, noting, asking (politely I might add), etc. Some people think that it is futile for me to try and make this forum a better place. I'd say the reason this forum's civility is where it is now is because nobody cared enough to make it better. I may fail, I'll probably fail, but it won't be because I quit trying. Maybe my efforts will spur others into joining me, heck, I don't know. I do know that I've gotten several positive emails (and a few negatives) supporting my efforts and thanking me. That alone makes it worth it to me. The positives, that is. I use the ignore function to address the others.
Bring back civility and decorum!
It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
This coming from an alcoholic drunk driver who can't hold a job? Sorry, Cliff, but though I respected you at one time you no longer have enough credibility with me for your words to matter to me. I only pray that if, or more likely when, you have that final drunken wreck that you don't take some innocent driver or rider with you. And if I ran a rig operation I'd never hire you to work on a rig, it's far too dangerous a place ffor someone who may be impaired.
Well, I guess we'll just call you Mr Hypocrite from now on.
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05:32 PM
naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
This thread has gone downhill quick. Someone is on a self-righteous wanna-be power trip that can't seem to get the fact that, like cliffw said, damn near everything involves politics in one form or another and there's no real way around it besides locking yourself in a box and never coming out.
No, this thread wasn't political in the beginning, but the reason for Detroit losing so many jobs, is largely due to politics. You can argue jobs going overseas has nothing to do with politics, but the fact remains that BMW is preparing to invest another 600 million into their plant(that opened in 1991) in SC and add a few hundred more jobs in the process. The OP may have specifically not said anything about the loss of jobs or the reasons that Detroit is becoming a ghost town to keep it from becoming a political argument, but someone did, and that cat's out of the bag, there's no going back. Live with it.
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05:40 PM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3141 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
Well, I guess we'll just call you Mr Hypocrite from now on.
Yeah, I shouldn't have let him get under my skin. I'll edit my original post. It's difficult when being bullied to not start acting like one, sort of a negative form of Darwinism, a race to the bottom.
Hard work being civil, gotta keep working at it, like running up a talus slope...
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05:46 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 36759 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Captured and saved by aceman: Originally posted by JazzMan: This coming from an alcoholic drunk driver who can't hold a job? Sorry, Cliff, but though I respected you at one time you no longer have enough credibility with me for your words to matter to me. I only pray that if, or more likely when, you have that final drunken wreck that you don't take some innocent driver or rider with you. And if I ran a rig operation I'd never hire you to work on a rig, it's far too dangerous a place ffor someone who may be impaired.
Nice save aceman, .
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: Shouldn't have gone there, not because it wasn't appropriate for the circumstances, but because I'm trying to be better than that...
Not because it wasn't appropriate, ? Flat out lies. Slander ? Some might say those are fighting words. Heh, perhaps you can tell me why I need to hold a job ? I have been in the oil fields for over twenty years. Never have I been hurt, never have I hurt anybody. Perhaps you should become an alcoholic. My place at Medina lake, ... paid for. My bought, brand spanking new, 05 Tacoma Access Cab 4X4 (loaded to the gills), .... paid for. My 85 CJ7 Laredo, ... paid for. My 88 Fiero GT T top, ... paid for. My wife's Rav4, ...paid for. My two boats, my $9,000.00 steam cleaner, my $800.00 airless paint sprayer, my enclosed cargo trailer, my Bobcat 250 welding rig and accessories, etc, etc, etc, ... paid for. My home in Kerrville, I have made a good dent upon. My wife, ... well you got me there. I am still paying for that, . You are trying to be better than that ? You have an ignore list (how long?) for your PM's ? Yet you can't ignore a political comment that you deem out of place. Try harder James, try harder. Also, you really need to quit wearing your buttons on your sleeve. I have been tempted to push them.
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06:40 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 36759 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
I saw the other thread, ... The Fall Of Detroit. There, or here, I saw reference to Eight Mile. I can assume what it is. Perhaps even Google it. I will. While I am looking any insight for my curiosity would be welcome.
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07:19 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 36759 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by cliffw: Politics need not divide and detract.
But it always do, don't it...
quote
Originally posted by cliffw: It is supposed to bring together and cause focus.
But it never do, do it...
It seems to me to do the same thing every other human negitive does: reduces everything to 'us' & 'them'.
------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
It seems to me to do the same thing every other human negitive does: reduces everything to 'us' & 'them'.
Honestly... I have to disagree with you.
Through political discussion, I feel that I have grown an incredibly high respect for newf. He's always very respectful of others' opinions, and I see the care he takes in his posts. I appreciate it, and have told him so. We have exchanged kind words over PM because of past talks on politics.
However, does this normally happen? No. At least, not on this forum. In my personal life, talking about politics has pretty much bonded me with everyone I discuss it with. This is most likely due to the fact that at 20 years old, having a political discussion with another young'n is refreshing because we just aren't used to people our age paying attention.
No matter how much I disagree with someone, if they know what they're talking about, respect is there. If they try and talk politics without researching first, I get upset and will pummel them into the ground, no matter their belief. I've done this to quite a few people posting crap about Obama on Facebook when they never researched the facts... and I very much so want him out of office. But like I said... as long as you aren't ignorant, you're okay. But that's not politics, that's just maturity vs. immaturity.
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02:14 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 36759 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by cliffw: Politics need not divide and detract.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw: It is supposed to bring together and cause focus.
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg: But it always do, don't it... But it never do, do it... It seems to me to do the same thing every other human negitive does: reduces everything to 'us' & 'them'.
No, it always doesn't divide/detract and yes it often does bring together/cause focus. "Us" and "them" is a part of life. Whether politics or not. Men and women, gay and straight, religious and non religious, black white brown Italian Irish Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, etc. Us and them need to negotiate. It's fine that Jazzman does not want to talk politics, really it is. However, to incessantly demand that others do not in his presence is not fine. He can avoid threads marked political but many here do not even know how a thread is labeled. We don't even know if he will come into a thread. He is actually suggesting that we need to start a thread about another thread so a political angle of the subject can be discussed. Ridiculous and against forum rules. I could see if he started a thread, if it started veering politics, and he civilly asked us to refrain, I would give him all the respect in the world. Not so when he becomes an annoying pest.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 03-24-2011).]
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06:40 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24140 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
It seems to me to do the same thing every other human negitive does: reduces everything to 'us' & 'them'.
I disagree, with the guys I work with, a lot of them don't see eye-to-eye on my views. After duking it out politically, I've learned that really, we all want the exact same thing for America... we really do. We just differ on the best ways to go about it. No one here enjoys the fact that Detroit is a **** -hole. We all want it to go back to how it was in it's renaissance days when the rest of the world called it the Paris of America.
How to go about it, that's a different story.
As I've said before... the only people we hear from in the media are the extreme views of both sides... the vast majority of the US is centrist... but then again, commonality amongst voters doesn't provide for interesting news, does it?
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07:24 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by JazzMan: It's difficult when being bullied to not start acting like one, sort of a negative form of Darwinism, a race to the bottom.
You can't be serious, ! You come into many threads and pick the same fight. We get tired of it and fight back. You are being bullied, ?
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10:09 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I disagree, with the guys I work with, a lot of them don't see eye-to-eye on my views. After duking it out politically, I've learned that really, we all want the exact same thing for America... we really do. We just differ on the best ways to go about it. No one here enjoys the fact that Detroit is a **** -hole. We all want it to go back to how it was in it's renaissance days when the rest of the world called it the Paris of America.
How to go about it, that's a different story.
As I've said before... the only people we hear from in the media are the extreme views of both sides... the vast majority of the US is centrist... but then again, commonality amongst voters doesn't provide for interesting news, does it?
discussion is the only way to learn & grow. my outlook has morphed quite a bit since spending time here in O/T.
tho, many here would claim the wrong way
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10:38 AM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
Ah, Eight Mile is a road. South of it, as I said, I can imagine. Everybody has that area.
:lecture: East - West roads in the Detroit area are numbered. They basically start at 6 Mile and go up to I think 32 Mile. that far north for the most part is country. 8 Mile is the northern border of Detroit. 12 Mile is the unoffical border of reputable neighborhoods. Some areas have renamed to roads to improve their image - 16 Mile is also Quarton, Big Beaver and Metro Parkway.
Long time Mayor Coleman Young during his inaugural in 1974 said, “I issue a warning to all those pushers, to all rip-off artists, to all muggers: It’s time to leave Detroit; hit Eight Mile Road! And I don’t give a damn if they are black or white, or if they wear Superfly suits or blue uniforms with silver badges. Hit the road.” It was translated to: if you're white, leave. :/lecture:
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10:41 AM
IFLYR22 Member
Posts: 1775 From: Tucson, AZ. Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by cliffw: Flat out lies. Slander ?
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/075841.html Will cliffw Go To Jail ? 06-29-2010 03:39 PM Again ? Bets are on. Place your bet here. I got arrested for public intoxication. A very hard charge to defend against.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/047924.html WOOO HOOOO ! I Will Be Able To Become A Felon. 02-26-2007 10:37 AM It is my lucky day. WOOOO HOOOO ! I got my third DW!. WOOO HOOO ! I have had more DWIs in the last three years than I have had in the previous twenty nine years
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...041015-2-049927.html Falsely Failed Job Drug Test 04-29-2004 02:41 PM Company would only state, " Violation of Company Policy ", would not put in writing I failed a urininalysis
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050818-6-031256.html New Crime Coming Soon 03-08-2005 09:56 AM First, let me say that I also abhor drunken driving. Also, I admit I have been guilty of it. I thought those days were behind me but last Oct, I was arrested for blowing a .085 on a field meter which is not certifiably admissable in court.
Your words, not mine. If you want to accuse someone for libel (slander is spoken, libel is written) you'll have to take yourself as defendant. It was uncivil for me to make the original comment because that was personally directed, and I retracted it within minutes. It's unfortunate that Aceman saw fit to preserve it. I'll apologize for that lapse of civility and continue to work diligently to be more civil. It's the path I've chosen, will you join me on that path?
------------------ Bring back civility and decorum!
It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?
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11:27 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I disagree with those that disagree with me on my view that talking politics here divides people. And I do it with a very simple question; How many times has someone been called a name, democrat, teabagger, left, right, etc. etc. etc. after expressing a political view. Trying to put a lablel on them based on an oppossing view. Making it simpler to point out the 'us' from 'them'.
Division.
I am of no political affilliaton, but there are those here that insist I am indeed affilliated with one particular one based on a few of my political opinions. Why do they insist I am that? Becouse the nature of men demand that I MUST be divided into one of those groups for ease of identification as friend, foe, or the barely tolerated and hardly ever accepted and never respected, neutral.
Speaking for here, politics divides us to the point of calling the other side and those on it, names. Choosing sides for someone. That is division to me.
But division is not nearly as ugly as what is done with it. Besides creating the large target of 'them', It is also used as justification for attacking single individuals on a personal level within that group.
Sure, if we are all on the same side, it's never a problem. But if you label another side, you have divided them from you.
And what you do with that division is the real issue.
------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 03-24-2011).]
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11:32 AM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by Boondawg: I disagree with those that disagree with me on my view that talking politics here divides people. And I do it with a very simple question; How many times has someone been called a name, democrat, teabagger, left, right, etc. etc. etc. after expressing a political view. Trying to put a lablel on them based on an oppossing view. Making it simpler to point out the 'us' from 'them'.
Division.
I am of no political affilliaton, but there are those here that insist I am indeed affilliated with one particular one based on a few of my political opinions. Why do they insist I am that? Becouse the nature of men demand that I MUST be divided into one of those groups for ease of identification as friend, foe, or the barely tolerated and hardly ever accepted and never respected, neutral.
Speaking for here, politics divides us to the point of calling the other side and those on it, names. Choosing sides for someone. That is division to me.
But division is not nearly as ugly as what is done with it. Besides creating the large target of 'them', It is also used as justification for attacking single individuals on a personal level within that group.
Sure, if we are all on the same side, it's never a problem. But if you label another side, you have divided them from you.
And what you do with that division is the real issue.
yup favorite game is to lump unsavory types into "their" group
like the mighty debate over Hitler was Hitler a Conservative or Liberal? was he a Christian? everyone has their arguements of why Hitler belongs in the OTHER group.
but - maybe a lesson from Einstein would help here: it is all relative to the observer.
if you find that most people are of "that" group - it maybe that you are too deep in what you consider "your group", and like all things - to much of anything is NOT good, right or proper.
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11:45 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24140 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/075841.html Will cliffw Go To Jail ? 06-29-2010 03:39 PM Again ? Bets are on. Place your bet here. I got arrested for public intoxication. A very hard charge to defend against.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/047924.html WOOO HOOOO ! I Will Be Able To Become A Felon. 02-26-2007 10:37 AM It is my lucky day. WOOOO HOOOO ! I got my third DW!. WOOO HOOO ! I have had more DWIs in the last three years than I have had in the previous twenty nine years
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...041015-2-049927.html Falsely Failed Job Drug Test 04-29-2004 02:41 PM Company would only state, " Violation of Company Policy ", would not put in writing I failed a urininalysis
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050818-6-031256.html New Crime Coming Soon 03-08-2005 09:56 AM First, let me say that I also abhor drunken driving. Also, I admit I have been guilty of it. I thought those days were behind me but last Oct, I was arrested for blowing a .085 on a field meter which is not certifiably admissable in court.
Your words, not mine. If you want to accuse someone for libel (slander is spoken, libel is written) you'll have to take yourself as defendant. It was uncivil for me to make the original comment because that was personally directed, and I retracted it within minutes. It's unfortunate that Aceman saw fit to preserve it. I'll apologize for that lapse of civility and continue to work diligently to be more civil. It's the path I've chosen, will you join me on that path?
Bring back civility and decorum!
It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?
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11:49 AM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
It's unfortunate that Aceman saw fit to preserve it.
Unfortunate for who? You? Me? CliffW?
I'd say it was unfortunate for you, Mr Hypocrite. I just was quoting for preservation. Much like you do all the time. If you don't quote it, you take your toys and go home by editing all of your posts with a: "."
You really, really should look in the mirror before going on a crusade to impress your high and mighty (and hypocritical) viewpoint on civility.
If you don't like the posts in a thread, you can comment and prepare yourself for an opposing viewpoint or hit the back button.
The O/T forum has had very few locked or trash canned threads since 84Bill, Phranc, Turdster and even you left.
I'll apologize for that lapse of civility and continue to work diligently to be more civil. It's the path I've chosen, will you join me on that path?
Yes.
And FWIW, I apologize for my lack of civility a couple nights back.
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
I disagree with those that disagree with me on my view that talking politics here divides people. And I do it with a very simple question; How many times has someone been called a name, democrat, teabagger, left, right, etc. etc. etc. after expressing a political view. Trying to put a lablel on them based on an oppossing view. Making it simpler to point out the 'us' from 'them'.
Division.
I am of no political affilliaton, but there are those here that insist I am indeed affilliated with one particular one based on a few of my political opinions. Why do they insist I am that? Becouse the nature of men demand that I MUST be divided into one of those groups for ease of identification as friend, foe, or the barely tolerated and hardly ever accepted and never respected, neutral.
Speaking for here, politics divides us to the point of calling the other side and those on it, names. Choosing sides for someone. That is division to me.
But division is not nearly as ugly as what is done with it. Besides creating the large target of 'them', It is also used as justification for attacking single individuals on a personal level within that group.
Sure, if we are all on the same side, it's never a problem. But if you label another side, you have divided them from you.
And what you do with that division is the real issue.
I do agree that it has divided people. I don't agree that discussion of politics divides people. People misusing their own beliefs and considering them fact have divided people. I haven't called anyone a name on here, as far as I believe. And I haven't been called names by many. I have grown closer to many people because of political discussion, only used Newf as an example because we tend to disagree on everything. Another I disagree with a lot is Doni, but we've also exchanged words of kindness that only came after healthy debate.
I disagree with you. But it holds true that many on this forum have divided people over the topics you mention.
------------------
I'm young, impulsive, and naïve; but I'm learning.
"Of all the illusions that beset mankind none is quite so curious as that tendency to suppose that we are mentally and morally superior to those who differ from us in opinion." - Elbert Hubbard
8 mile is the northern border, but for years has represented the division between the races in the metro area.
... and as for 12 mile... that's probably an east side thing... (at least seemed to be true when I was living in Madison Heights). Here on the west side, it's more about being west of Telegraph than north of 12
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01:46 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
I don't agree that discussion of politics divides people.
The key to my post being 'divides people here'. So much so that many people here avoid posting in or even viewing political threads. Why else would they do that in a place that you contend welcomes oppossing political viewpoints?
Just a thought.....
------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
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02:47 PM
Gall757 Member
Posts: 10938 From: Holland, MI Registered: Jun 2010
The key to my post being 'divides people here'. So much so that many people here avoid posting in or even viewing political threads. Why else would they do that in a place that you contend welcomes oppossing political viewpoints?
Just a thought.....
I agree with that to a degree. Perhaps, I just wish some of the people WEREN'T so dividing in their statements. And that desire blinds me to see the full extent of what you talk about.
Or perhaps again, it's merely because I'm on the "majority side" when people choose to divide into groups.
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03:02 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I just wish some of the people WEREN'T so dividing in their statements..
I agree. And I think that is at the heart of the point Jazzman is trying to make. His message might be be a bit more palitable to the masses if it were delivered a bit more softly, but I suspect he has probibly tired of the complete ineffectiveness of softness 'round these parts.
------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
I agree. And I think that is at the heart of the point Jazzman is trying to make. His message might be be a bit more palitable to the masses if it were delivered a bit more softly, but I suspect he has probibly tired of the complete ineffectiveness of softness 'round these parts.
It's hard to be oppressive when the oppressed remains calm, collected, and civil. That is my solution... the people who wish to be civil just act extremely civil. When Doni had an entire thread against him a few months back, everyone calmed down very quickly when they realized he wasn't being an ass back to them. Somehow, and I don't really get this one, but somehow this technique DOESN'T work for newf, even though he employs it frequently.
So maybe I'm wrong.
But like my signature states... I've done some wrong things in the past and I'm learning.
I wish for the same thing as JazzMan... civility. But I also wish for another.... humility. I don't believe telling others what to post and what not to post is the right way to have a wonderful forum. (Besides the obvious trolling or pr0n or whatever)
------------------
I'm young, impulsive, and naïve; but I'm learning.
"Of all the illusions that beset mankind none is quite so curious as that tendency to suppose that we are mentally and morally superior to those who differ from us in opinion." - Elbert Hubbard
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03:33 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24140 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I agree. And I think that is at the heart of the point Jazzman is trying to make. His message might be be a bit more palitable to the masses if it were delivered a bit more softly, but I suspect he has probibly tired of the complete ineffectiveness of softness 'round these parts.
I thought I heard somewhere that JazzMan might not like you... not sure if that's true, but I heard it's a possibility...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:I don't believe telling others what to post and what not to post is the right way to have a wonderful forum.
I've never told anyone what to post or not to post. I've asked repeatedly that people posting political content or content designed to provoke a political response to use the software the forum creator wrote to properly mark their topics , namely politics, so that all the rest of us who don't want to see politics and have politics unchecked in their preferences don't have to see it. But somehow, some way, a small group insists on ignoring that so that they can presumably appeal to a wider, and unwilling, audience. The personal attacks, general rudeness, and deliberate hostility and provocation that this minority tends to use drags down the entire forum by driving away people who are just plain tired of it.
The whole issue would go away with two simple, yet apparently completely impossible, tasks on the part of this small group:
1. One mouse click. It's not even an extra mouse click, since a category has to be chosen or the topic won't go through. Just a different mouse click a few pixels over to one side. The tiniest flick of the wrist, a mere 1/8" movement of the mouse. Hardly a neuron fires and likely not even a single calorie is consumed by the effort expended to do this One. Simple. Task.
2. Respect the category choice of those who didn't mark their topics political by keeping politics out of it. This small group cannot seem to see anything in the world without somehow managing to interject partisan, hostile, rude, and divisive politics into the thread. Ham sandwiches on sale today at Kroger? Man, must be those liberals or conservatives or something craptastic like that. It just never seems to end. What is it about this itty bitty minority that Can't Keep It In Their Pants, politically speaking? Give it a rest, and show some respect for the topic starters and those who don't want to see politics. If you just can't resist finding some political aspect of a non-political subject, then go start a topic about the politics of San Augustine Grass, or burritos, or whatever.
It's not hard. It's not even rocket science. It does require some self-control. Perhaps that's too much to ask of a handful of members here, to stop stinking it up for the rest of us. But, I'll keep cajoling, imploring, pointing, and otherwise trying. If I fail, it won't be because I stood by and didn't care.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I thought I heard somewhere that JazzMan might not like you... not sure if that's true, but I heard it's a possibility...
You heard wrong, or more likely, you just fabricated that morsel of information. Nothing to meme here, move along...
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 03-24-2011).]
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05:31 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I thought I heard somewhere that JazzMan might not like you... not sure if that's true, but I heard it's a possibility...
Well, I have always been blessed with not having to consider how others feel about me when expressing my own thoughts about them. Especially when regarding that person in kindness.
No, I would not let someone's opinion of me determine my support or lack thereof with where they stand on a subject.
------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 03-24-2011).]
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05:45 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
But as I have said before, I can not fathom how ANYONE could not like me! Ignorence is turely bliss for me. I think i'll keep it. ------------------ And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 03-24-2011).]
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