quote Originally posted by Patrick: Cliff, just so this is clear to me and to others... Are you saying that "jokes" about some guy blowing his load in another guy's arse in a public washroom are acceptable here, whereas a picture of a naked woman just leaning against a tree is completely out of line?

And you concluded that, how?

quote It's not that I wish to make a habit of posting pictures of naked women leaning against trees, but seriously, I'd like to know what in your opinion is more offensive.

I don't find any of that offensive. But that's not the point.

So just in case you missed it in my last post: Stop acting like you just grew some pubes and start acting like adults. Use your common sense.

Also, stop acting like I'm a frickin' robot with nothing else to do than to moderate this forum. Just because a thread hasn't been closed or I don't close a thread a millisecond after someone posts some questionable contents doesn't mean I condone it. It means I haven't had a frickin' chance yet to read it.

Over 3000 new posts are made every single day by over 300 different members. Yet everybody thinks they are forum celebrities or something because they expect me to have read all the threads they have participated in.

Can we all agree that this subject has run its course, and we all know where we stand? No winners, no losers, just a Forum where we can chat, laugh, cry and hold out helping hands to those who need it. And we can leave our Forum Owner and Moderator to get on with his family commitments, work and relaxation in peace.
We ALL know where to draw the line, and always have done. If we DON'T, then this place will be littered with fights and squabbles until Cliff finally blows a gasket, and pulls the plug on the whole thing...and I seriously don't relish having to go to Facebook to continue my interactions with people I have come to regard as true and close friends, and new friends that may arrive here in the future.
Please Folks..I have friends here who have 'crossed the line ' in BOTH directions IMHO, and I find that very discomforting to say the least. Everybody whom I find HAS crossed a line, and I talk it over with them, has always responded positively...otherwide I doubt they would be true friends, would they?
Seeing the attitude nowadays towards 'alternative' sex and things related have become more or less a 'laissez-faire' subject, and it seems also to feature quite regularly in T/OT topics, how about a special section, such as we have for Politics, Religion and humour etc where those who feel so inclined can post related topics, and those of us who find them disturbing, ranging to downright offensive, can totally avoid them by unclicking it.
As many here have already expressed in the past...'so long as they don't flaunt it or make me involved in any way, who cares??'
It WOULD avoid causing distress and discomfort to those who want never to hear about it. More work for Cliff, I know...sorry Cliff. I guess you don't need even MORE 'things to do' Forum related . But I for one, would appreciate some kind of system so I don't have to read it, and yet those who DO, know where to go to read or post. Maybe modify the 'humour' section, which I am pretty sure NOBODY has unclicked
Nick

Nick,
Just my opinion but I don't agree with your new section idea. I simply don't see that as the answer. A joke section would contain all the jokes regardless of topic. Obviously, some topics are off limits to some folks. The reason is, we all have different senses of humor, we all find different things funny and different levels of scrupples and morals. In addition, we all have a line we won't or shouldn't cross but that line differs for each individual. If I understood one of Cliff's postings, he pretty well stated how he felt about such things in describing the reaction his seven year old would have. Pictures always speak volumes over written words. That doesn't make it alright to be foul mouth in what is written but, it is a starting point. There are some things that the vast majority of families do not want spoken, written or read aloud in their homes. I won't claim to wear a halo either, I've probably crossed that line with someone but, no one has informed me of an infraction.

I believe the key is to keep it a forum where you are aware of the differences and don't post things, pictures or written word that are most likely to offend. Judgement comes into play here and unfortunately, not everyone shows good judgement, myself included at times.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Can we all agree that this subject has run its course, and we all know where we stand? No winners, no losers, just a Forum where we can chat, laugh, cry and hold out helping hands to those who need it. And we can leave our Forum Owner and Moderator to get on with his family commitments, work and relaxation in peace. We ALL know where to draw the line, and always have done. If we DON'T, then this place will be littered with fights and squabbles until Cliff finally blows a gasket, and pulls the plug on the whole thing...and I seriously don't relish having to go to Facebook to continue my interactions with people I have come to regard as true and close friends, and new friends that may arrive here in the future. Please Folks..I have friends here who have 'crossed the line ' in BOTH directions IMHO, and I find that very discomforting to say the least. Everybody whom I find HAS crossed a line, and I talk it over with them, has always responded positively...otherwide I doubt they would be true friends, would they? Seeing the attitude nowadays towards 'alternative' sex and things related have become more or less a 'laissez-faire' subject, and it seems also to feature quite regularly in T/OT topics, how about a special section, such as we have for Politics, Religion and humour etc where those who feel so inclined can post related topics, and those of us who find them disturbing, ranging to downright offensive, can totally avoid them by unclicking it. As many here have already expressed in the past...'so long as they don't flaunt it or make me involved in any way, who cares??' It WOULD avoid causing distress and discomfort to those who want never to hear about it. More work for Cliff, I know...sorry Cliff. I guess you don't need even MORE 'things to do' Forum related . But I for one, would appreciate some kind of system so I don't have to read it, and yet those who DO, know where to go to read or post. Maybe modify the 'humour' section, which I am pretty sure NOBODY has unclicked Nick

I would have to vote no, if there was voting involved ( of course there isn't, its Cliff's policies and he clearly does not want it here ). There are places for that on the net already, why drag the trash over here too? While a separate section would tend to isolate it i agree, by human nature it will seep into other sections, and as word gets out that we have a 'no holds barred, bashing, whatever' section will draw bad apples, and get us on the radar for blockages. it also wouldn't do diddly prevent 'children' from accidentally wandering into the 'forbidden section', which is part of what the entire discussion was about anyway, keeping the FORUM family friendly, and not just parts of it..

Just my 2 cents is to keep this a car centric forum, with a 'respectful' O/T section about our other interests.

( and no I'm not casting stones here as I'm not prefect either and might blurt out a post without thinking it thru.. but i do try )

An unofficial, un-important " no" vote here as well.

I haven't been around for much of the weekend, as I have family visiting (my brother and his teenager). I would not want either to see any of the now closed threads. My personal preference. Nor, I suspect, would they want to.

As in many altercations, it's not the person casting the first stone or throwing the 1st punch that gets the punishment, or in this case, a (well earned) warning and public admonishment, but the person throwing the most or hardest and most visible punch that gets the bulk of the punishment/warning. That's understandable in this case--Pat fully understood he had crossed a line. He just believed that some others had also knowingly crossed a line, however fuzzy that line may seem at the time of pressing "submit".

The fact that all the threads involved in this episode, (except this one) have now been closed, should be explanation enough to those who posted the jokes that they too bear culpability, even tho they (afaik) escaped without the public admonishment Patrick recieved. The closing of those threads should also be evidence enough that the subject matter involved exceeds the boundries of the rules and wishes of the owner and administrator of PFF.

It has been noted many many times over the years, that this is, and always will be, a family viewable forum. Been said by Cliff, and reiterated by many many members as well. If you can't post a specific joke, picture or text in a major magazine, newspaper editorial section, and it wouldn't be accepted by Car & Driver, Readers Digest, Hot Rod, Wall Street Journal, CNN's comment section etc, there's a very very high chance that it is also unacceptable here. It doesn't take a whole lot of common sense to figure this out. If you don't want YOUR kids to read it or view it, it's pretty obvious that most of the rest of the membership wouldn't want or allow their kids, grandkids or even adult family members to see it either--regardless of whether there is a warning or not. Just as Cliff's 7 yr old or someone's employer would immediately recognize what was on the screen in the now deleted pics, they would also have at least "some" understanding of what was being discussed in the jokes that were posted (well, most probably not Cliff's 7 yr old), but you get the idea. If it's even a bit questionable--don't do it. Just don't. No worse for the wear if you don't post it, and simply inviting problems if you do post it. Not that hard to figure out.

And as Cliff has said, he may not fnd something personally "offensive", but what he personally sees as offensive is completely different than what he wants or will allow on the forum. The same may (or may not) hold true for isthiswhereiputausername. There are personal standards and professional standards and none of us can allow our personal standards to violate the professional (and stated) standards of those who host, own or administer this forum. Again, common sense comes into play. Even state and national laws are unable to spell out in 100% detail what is or is not socially or legally acceptable, but almost all adults can figure it out with just a couple of brain cells.

2 cents submitted.

(edited at 2:22 central time for grammar, punctuation and spelling errors)

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: because they expect me to have read all the threads they have participated in.

You don't read everything I post?!
The awesomeness that is me just won't allow me to believe that.......

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“Every mans life is a diary in which he means to write one story, but writes another; and his humblest hour is when he compares the volume as it is with what he vowed to make it” ~ Barrie

"I define nothing. Not beauty, not patriotism. I take each thing as it is, without prior rules about what it should be.” ~ Bob Dylan

"Learning sleeps and snores in libraries, but wisdom is everywhere, wide awake, on tiptoe." ~ Josh Billings

Why can't we just post sexy pic's with cloth's on, I personally don't want this turning in to a **** site.

Funny thing is...the naked female form can never be considered disgusting unless the pose is made to be so...but clothes DO change beauty into pawn ...nudity leaves nothing to the fertid imagination..clothes bring our the voyeurism aspect UTS pics are voyeuristic to the extreme
Lots of sense spoken in reply to my post above...and all more correct than mine
Nick

quote Originally posted by Shananigans: Why can't we just post sexy pic's with cloth's on, I personally don't want this turning in to a **** site.

You can have 'implied erotica' even with clothes on, which in my opinion isn't appropriate here. Not that i have a problem with any of the images personally, its just there is a time and a place for everything.


EDIT: Interesting bike tho. What is it?

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-15-2011).]

Old Triumph 650 bobbed out.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Strike one. Don't push it Patrick. You knew very well I don't allow such images. Next offense will get your account on probation. Push it further and a ban will occur.

Wow, Cliff. Age has certainly mellowed you.

Gotta say I'm kind of disappointed in the response as it seems one sided but of course I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in terms of PM's and such. Patrick may have been wrong for posting the nude pics but so were those who posted the lewd jokes and intentionally pushed the issue after Patrick complained IMO, yet they seem to have been given a free pass. I'm of the mind that most children who might be bothered by a nude photo are of the age that they can probably read as well.

Either way I hope all parties got this junk out of their systems for a while and continue to make this a family friendly site.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 05-15-2011).]

I would rather look at women's bodies all day long then here/see anything about guys doing it.
Anybody know of a good site that is only about Fieros, with accurate information, without people asking "what color should I paint my car", or "does this look good", or "what you you do" (even though it is MY car), and by passes all this drama and bullcrap?
Just wondering.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I would rather look at women's bodies all day long then here/see anything about guys doing it. Anybody know of a good site that is only about Fieros, with accurate information, without people asking "what color should I paint my car", or "does this look good", or "what you you do" (even though it is MY car), and by passes all this drama and bullcrap? Just wondering. Kevin

Well, if you stay away from O/T ......

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Well, if you stay away from O/T ......

Everything I put in quotes appears in the Tech discussion and General chat forums on a regular basis.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: Everything I put in quotes appears in the Tech discussion and General chat forums on a regular basis. Kevin

I guess i don't get over there as much as i used to. Others are far more knowledgeable than i to help people so i don't hit the other sections as much. ( i know the basics, but i still tend to learn things the hard way with bruised knuckles. )

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: So just in case you missed it in my last post: Stop acting like you just grew some pubes and start acting like adults.

Excuse me Cliff, but how about if you stop acting like one of the guys from RFT? (Ya ya, I know they're not all bad over there.) I'm not some troll who's dropped by to cause a problem. I've been here a long time and I care about the place. Seriously, I don't think I deserve to be talked down to like that by you. I've always addressed you with nothing but respect over the years, and I don't think expecting the same in return is too much to ask for. Maybe we should all start acting like adults here.

I'm sorry if this thread caught you at a bad time (as I had no idea you just had another child), but I wasn't the one who decided to push the limits with sodomy "jokes" the last couple of days.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Cliff, just so this is clear to me and to others... Are you saying that "jokes" about some guy blowing his load in another guy's arse in a public washroom are acceptable here, whereas a picture of a naked woman just leaning against a tree is completely out of line?

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: And you concluded that, how?

I came to that conclusion because of the fact you made it absolutely clear that the pictures I posted were taboo, whereas you never said one word about the sodomy "joke" (the first of many posted recently) which I copied and posted for you to see. It's not like you had to go hunting for it. It was right Here.

I don't know if it's a language thing or a cultural thing or whatever regarding what is allowed to be posted in the forum. It appears that you attribute little weight to the written word, even if it's describing lewd behavior, but a tasteful image of a woman's bare breast is verboten. That's fine, it's your forum, your rules. I'm simply trying to get a handle on the interpretation of your rules so we can all just get along.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-15-2011).]

I like boobs, I dont come to PFF for them.
I like a good joke but I dont come to PFF for them.

Mostly I come to interact with friends, some of them a little rougher than others. Thats life.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 05-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I came to that conclusion because of the fact you made it absolutely clear that the pictures I posted were taboo, whereas you never said one word about the sodomy "joke" (the first of many posted recently) which I copied and posted for you to see. It's not like you had to go hunting for it. It was right Here.

From what i gather those threads were closed off after he was available and knew about them. just because he didn't catch them when they first happened doesn't mean he approved of them. There are tons of posts here, hes one person, that also happens to have a life outside of here. Furthermore he shouldn't have to be ruining around babysitting us, which is what you seemed to be expecting. None of the posts should have ever appeared in the first place.

It has also been mentioned that you got grief for what you did but the others did not, well i do agree that was wrong as you ALL overstepped the boundaries here. Boundaries that are pretty clear and everyone understands, if you want to be honest about it and not hide behind the 'well they did it' excuse.

Some would even argue that the person that tosses the 2nd stone is more wrong than the first.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Over 3000 new posts are made every single day by over 300 different members. Yet everybody thinks they are forum celebrities or something because they expect me to have read all the threads they have participated in.

Well... I'm still a celebrity, and I'm going to keep telling myself that.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Excuse me Cliff, but how about if you stop acting like one of the guys from RFT? (Ya ya, I know they're not all bad over there.) I'm not some troll who's dropped by to cause a problem. I've been here a long time and I care about the place. Seriously, I don't think I deserve to be talked down to like that by you. I've always addressed you with nothing but respect over the years, and I don't think expecting the same in return is too much to ask for. Maybe we should all start acting like adults here.

Just my observation, but your method of getting Cliff's attention was childish, so you shouldn't be surprised if the reaction you get is to be treated like a child.
If you wanted to address the issue respectfully, a PM to Cliff would seem appropriate.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: a PM to Cliff would seem appropriate.

But hey, that doesn't get the attention so many apparently crave.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: You are probably not aware of this, but using the word "verboten" (which is German, not Dutch) is pretty much an insult to a Dutch person. Just an FYI.

My dad's family in Holland had their entire business ransacked by the NAZIs back during WW2. They used the dry cleaning / laundry factory in Vassen as a munitions depot, and turned their house (which was right next door) into a NAZI field hospital and forced my grandparents (and my dad, who interestingly enough was conceived in the middle of NAZI occupation) and their kids to live in the barn / chicken coop out back. Despite this, they managed to keep two Jewish families in the attic of the factory during the entire time that the NAZIs occupied their property and structures. My dad's older brother would sneak up into the attic of the factory when he could, and brought them bread and water.

When I went back as a kid to visit, I went into the attic to see what they were talking about, and it was like a gazillion dagrees up there... with all the dry cleaning and industrial laundry machines, the heat up there was insane... I guess it musn't have been that bad since the factory was shut down during the occupation. It really sucked for my grandparents... the NAZIs stole all of their gold, silverware, and precious family heirlooms. They also stole the four big delivery trucks they had (I think they were made by DAF).

They never found the Jewish families they kept in the attic though...


Interestingly enough... I married a Jewish girl about 5-6 years ago. At the wedding, about 1/3rd of the people there were older Jewish couples from New York (my wife's parent's are from New York). My dad has a ridiculously thick Dutch accent, even though he's been here since the 60s... it's like he just came off the boat. In any case... people kept asking him during the wedding if he was German. He got so furious by the end of the wedding that he stopped responding. He actually told me that if one more person asked him if he was German, he was going to go off on them (didn't happen thankfully).

There's only two things that make my dad furious...

1 - He feels as though he's being taken advantage of.
2 - Germans...

I try to use this rule on any internet forum, like PFF or facebook, would you do it in front of your mother? if the answer is no, why do it here.

quote Originally posted by htexans1: I try to use this rule on any internet forum, like PFF or facebook, would you do it in front of your mother? if the answer is no, why do it here.

The joke that started the whole mess... Was my mom's favorite joke

quote Originally posted by 8Ball: The joke that started the whole mess... Was my mom's favorite joke

And my mom would've thought it was filthy and disgusting. I think I'm begining to see where we might've acquired different tastes in "humour".

Dude, just stop while you are not banned. Right now you are looking like a attention whore.
Im a neutral party so dont shoot the messenger.

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: Right now you are looking like a attention whore.

How long have you been a member here? And how many posts do you have?

We need a pic from the dumb and dumber movie when loyed looks down at the actress knockers and sees headlights fits this thread very well...

Seriously though i dont Get what everyone is in a uproar about. There's nothing wrong with some funny harmless perverted jokes every now and than. it would be wise to label them NSFW and children but still.. its all pureley in jest. Were all grown men and women here, Nothing most of us haven't seen/heard before.

[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 05-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Oh come on Cliff, there's no need to give me a cheap shot. Do you honestly believe I'd put myself through all this nonsense in order to get a little attention at an internet car forum?

Given the discussion (I mentioned earlier) we had through PM, yes, I do believe you are only trying to get some attention.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I see no connection between those particular PMs and my desire to find out one way or another if obscene "jokes" are tolerated here.

Really? You see no connection with Private Messages that explain (in detail) to you why I "tolerate" certain things/threads here but not others?

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Were all grown men and women here, Nothing most of us haven't seen/heard before.

That's the point.

We're NOT all grown men and women here. And even for those that are, kids often run around the house while PFF is pulled up. My little sister started learning how to read before Kindergarten.

I think Patrick went over the line, but he knew he went over the line and I think he makes a good point.

Not my forum though... so I really don't have a say.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Given the discussion (I mentioned earlier) we had through PM, yes, I do believe you are only trying to get some attention.

You can believe whatever you wish, but I assure you "attention" is not what I was after. An "answer" is what I was seeking.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Really? You see no connection with Private Messages that explain (in detail) to you why I "tolerate" certain things/threads here but not others?

Cliff, I didn't even know what the heck you were referring to initially about these "Private Messages" until I searched through my Inbox/Outbox. Are you referring to the PMs we exchanged on 02-08-2011 about a particular thread? If so, no, I don't see the connection here. If it was all as clear to me as it appears to be to you, I wouldn't have started this thread.

Seems that what you were describing to me in the PMs was that threads are closed if/when people complain, and not until they complain. I'm not asking about how to close a thread, I'm asking what is allowed to be posted in the first place according to PFF's Terms of Use and Posting Rules.

You're able to tell me with no hesitation that images of nudity aren't allowed (even though it appears lots of members would enjoy it), yet you're reluctant to give me a straight answer regarding obscene written material.

Honestly, I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to tell me straight out if that sodomy "joke" I've pointed out several times now Here is acceptable material to be posted in O/T or not.

I'm not trying to make life miserable for you, I was just hoping to get a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

If you can't or won't answer the question, I guess we're done here.

Jesus Christ Patrick.... Give up already dude!

Patrick, you know you are right, I know you are right, but it is just hard dealing with a few, less moral people who could care less about what other people think even though thay are shown the rules. You can't win.

Only thing I got out of all of this is 8Ball seems to be very, Very intersted in other guys weiners and anal sex. Just saying.....

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I'm not trying to make life miserable for you, I was just hoping to get a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Patrick, I know what you are trying to explain, but I think you have reached an impass.
I have found that sometimes things in life are just a bit looser then "yes" or "no" or "right" or "wrong".

I believe this is one of those times when you just got to walk away with what little bit of knowlage you have gained from your initual intent.
I value your presence here more then the windmills you are tilting at.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I value your presence here more then the windmills you are tilting at.

Boonie, you sure have a way of putting things!...LMAO

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: Boonie, you sure have a way of putting things!...LMAO Kevin

Just quoting history, some of it personel.



I had to teach myself to know when to just let it go, no matter how right I thought I was.