I was raised as a Baha'i and this is their viewpoint
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-3-2-18.html

The Unity of Religion and Science

A major source of conflict and disunity in the world today is the widespread opinion that there is some basic opposition between science and religion, that scientific truth contradicts religion on some points, and that one must choose between being a religious person, a believer in God, or a scientist, a follower of reason.1

The Bahá'í teachings stress the fundamental harmony of science and religion. This view derives from the belief that truth (or reality) is one. For if truth is indeed one, it is not possible for something to be scientifically false and religiously true. 'Abdu'l-Baha expressed forcefully this idea in the following passage:

If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.2

Bahá'u'lláh affirmed that man's intelligence and reasoning powers are a gift from God: "This gift giveth man the power to discern the truth in all things, leadeth him to that which is right, and helpeth him to discover the secrets of creation."3 Science results from our systematic use of these God-given powers. The truths of science are thus discovered truths. The truths of prophetic religion are revealed truths, i.e., truths which God has shown to us without our having to discover them for ourselves. Bahá'ís consider that it is the same unique God who is both the Author of revelation and the Creator of the reality which science investigates, and hence there can be no contradiction between the two.

Contradictions between science and traditional religious beliefs are attributed to human fallibility and arrogance. Over the centuries, distortions have gradually infiltrated the doctrines of many religious systems and diluted the pure teachings originally given by the Manifestation who was their Founder. With time these distortions become increasingly difficult to distinguish from the original message. Similarly, unsupported speculations of various schools of scientific thought have at times become more popular and influential than the results of rigorous scientific research, and have further blurred the picture.

'Abdu'l-Baha affirmed that religion and science are, in fact, complementary:

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism.4

In another passage from the same work, He affirmed that the result of the practice of the unity of science and religion will be a strengthening of religion rather than its weakening as is feared by many religious apologists:

When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles--and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God.5

1. Adapted from William S. Hatcher and Douglas Martin, The Bahá'í Faith: The Emerging Global Religion (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1985), pp. 87-89.
2. `Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1922. 2nd edition 1982, p. 181.
3. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1939. 2d rev. ed. 1976), p. 194.
4. 'Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1969), p. 143.
5. 'Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1969), p. 146.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: A lot of people lie all the time. They either exaggerate or just plain out lie. Christians set themselves up to a higher standard than the rest of the people in America, because they "claim" they have God on their side and that God helps them become a better person and God has plans for them. Christians try to control our government and dictate our society. Prayers in school, abortion, gay marriage bans, Sunday Blue Laws, creationism taught in public schools and the list goes on. A politician running for office has to portray himself as religious in the Christian sector in order to be electable. Plus Christianity dominates our society by having christian churches on ever street corner in America. So if you consider yourself involved and touched by a higher power and everybody else hasn't, then you come up to me and just straight out lie, what the hell....I mean heaven how do you think I'm going to think about your cult? Myself? I might have very strong opinions, but I don't knowing lie to anybody. But I know a lot of people do and many of those people are Christians. Let me put it to you this way. Two questions...if you speak about trust. 1. Would you say nothing if your daughter decided to marry an Atheist and therefore would be influenced by him and eventually become an Atheist herself? 2. If you had a company that was a thriving business and you were getting too old to run the company, would you hand it over to an Atheist?

You know very little about Christianity.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: A lot of people lie all the time. They either exaggerate or just plain out lie. Christians set themselves up to a higher standard than the rest of the people in America, because they "claim" they have God on their side and that God helps them become a better person and God has plans for them. Christians try to control our government and dictate our society. Prayers in school, abortion, gay marriage bans, Sunday Blue Laws, creationism taught in public schools and the list goes on. A politician running for office has to portray himself as religious in the Christian sector in order to be electable. Plus Christianity dominates our society by having christian churches on ever street corner in America.

Christians look to a higher standard because we have a Higher Standard. We are no better than anyone else, but we have an assurance that others don't.

Another way to look at this is that, essentially, Christianity has had the hold of the government, in that the laws of the land were based on the Judeo-Christian scriptures for over 150 years. Public schools had Bible readings daily since their inception. That changed slowly in the last century, until what the Founding Fathers put on paper - that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights - is as if it was but a distant memory. This is not to be a thread hijack on what the Founding Fathers believed or did not - there has already been a thread or three about that - but, Deist or Presby or whatever, most believed in God the Creator, who impressed upon the Universe a set of laws. So, prayer in school was there before the 20th Century. Marriage was universally known (not just held) to be between people who, without any health issues, able to have babies - a man joined with a woman. Abortion was unheard of until Margaret Sanger planned to use it to control the populations of Blacks, Hispanics and Jews - genocide in America - now it's a right that kills little girls and boys??? And again, the Lord's Day was sacrosanct until the Dollar became the god to supplant the real one in society. And so on....

EDIT: It could be said this way - America was founded by Christians and others interested in the free expression of Faith and Religion, and those fundamental things that were (and are) held dear - the Sabbath, Marriage, Faith in God, His supremacy, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness - have been under systematic attack almost from the beginning.

quote So if you consider yourself involved and touched by a higher power and everybody else hasn't, then you come up to me and just straight out lie, what the hell....I mean heaven how do you think I'm going to think about your cult? Myself? I might have very strong opinions, but I don't knowing lie to anybody. But I know a lot of people do and many of those people are Christians.

Everybody lies. The question is, what do we do after the fact? Do we come clean? Do we ask forgiveness of the person that we have hurt? Do we reach out to God to help us past a human foible?

And what did we lie about? Did I kill your cat? Did I key your car? Did I sign you up for Woman's Day magazine? Did I tell you that there would one day be Peace on Earth? What did that do? How did I deal with the aftermath?

Human character is a wide spectrum. If you are subject to a plethora of people on the low end of the spectrum, you need to find out why, and where you can go to find a better class of person. There are Christians that have trouble digging themselves out of the mire, just as there are any other type of person. A Christian should be improving, praying, and reaching for something better, because we know that there is something better. Just like pulling someone up from a literal hole in the ground, it is easier to pull down than up.

quote Let me put it to you this way. Two questions...if you speak about trust. 1. Would you say nothing if your daughter decided to marry an Atheist and therefore would be influenced by him and eventually become an Atheist herself? 2. If you had a company that was a thriving business and you were getting too old to run the company, would you hand it over to an Atheist?

To the first, I could not be honest with her or myself if I did not say anything. He would be welcome in my home, hypothetically, but he would have to be respectful of her family's faith - including her two brothers. He would find open conversation about God and His power in our lives. He would probably leave her on my account.

As to the second, just because a person is an Atheist doesn't mean that I can't trust the person. Certainly money is a means to achieve a living standard, but it is not the end itself. There are only two businesses that I've been interested in opening. Either could be run by an Atheist as easily as a Christian.

[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 07-10-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: To put it simply, "evolutionists" and "big bang theorists" can either put up, or shut up.

They HAVE put up...and continue to do so more and more every day.....there is no longer "gods will" about people with shakes--thats known now...there is no longer "gods will" about diesases..thats science and medicine now....it no longer "gods will" that the earth is round and not flat, and no I am not going to fly off the edge of it.....brushing my teeth 20 times a day will not cure me of smoking like the mormans claim......praying to some dead jewish girl hard enough will not make healing magically occur, and thinking positive to some "universe" and thinking postive will not make my pine tree grow 20-doller-bills........

Thats reality....like it or lumpt, ya aint gonna change it.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: They HAVE put up...and continue to do so more and more every day.....there is no longer "gods will" about people with shakes--thats known now...there is no longer "gods will" about diesases..thats science and medicine now....it no longer "gods will" that the earth is round and not flat, and no I am not going to fly off the edge of it.....brushing my teeth 20 times a day will not cure me of smoking like the mormans claim......praying to some dead jewish girl hard enough will not make healing magically occur, and thinking positive to some "universe" and thinking postive will not make my pine tree grow 20-doller-bills........ Thats reality....like it or lumpt, ya aint gonna change it.

They haven't proved anything as to the origin of Humanity, much less the Universe. There is no repeatable experiment. There is no proof by scientific standard.

And what Atheist's name is on a hospital? Or on a University?

John Harvard founded the first college in the US to train up the clergy. My, how things have changed. And as I peruse my local yellow pages, I find St. Elizabeths, Caritas Christi, Cardinal Cushing, Beth Israel....

Seems Atheists prefer to fund NPR, the ACLU and NARAL....

quote Originally posted by Wichita: So, even though typical clouds do contain a lot of water, this water is spread out for miles in the form of tiny water droplets or crystals, which are so small that the effect of gravity on them is negligible. Thus, from our vantage on the ground, clouds seem to float in the sky. NEXT!!!!!!!!

Sounds simple from a human standpoint, but can these tiny droplets of water be reproduced in a controlled lab were actual clouds are formed to produce rain?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Sounds simple from a human standpoint, but can these tiny droplets of water be reproduced in a controlled lab were actual clouds are formed to produce rain?

Yes. Quite a few universities have Cloud Chamber Labs.

Here is something for you. Did you know we can actually make a cloud rain?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Yes. Quite a few universities have Cloud Chamber Labs. Here is something for you. Did you know we can actually make a cloud rain?

Can only produce a cloud in nature? Or only under controlled conditions, correct?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: They haven't proved anything as to the origin of Humanity, much less the Universe. There is no repeatable experiment. There is no proof by scientific standard. And what Atheist's name is on a hospital? Or on a University? John Harvard founded the first college in the US to train up the clergy. My, how things have changed. And as I peruse my local yellow pages, I find St. Elizabeths, Caritas Christi, Cardinal Cushing, Beth Israel.... Seems Atheists prefer to fund NPR, the ACLU and NARAL....

I don't understand your arguement in terms of the origin of humanity unless you are just stating that neither science OR religion can prove it. And if that's what you are saying I completely agree and that is part of the reason why neither "side" should claim to KNOW what is the "truth" IMO. Now saying that you believe in one or the other, that's totally personal choice but please don't tell me I'm wrong just because I don't believe what someone else does.

As for the names of institutions I have no idea what that is supposed to prove either. please explain. Also explain the last line of your post which seems to try and generalize as well.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 07-10-2011).]

These are just from this thread. You constantly have an elitist attitude, and you are not respectful in your conversations. These are the kind of comments that have led many people (by your own admission) to tell you that you are hateful. You don't know everything, so quit acting like you do.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Sigh! but I understand that no other bodies of written works matter except for the Bible (for what ever version you pick) Yeah! I know, I'm just possessed by demons and doing the devils work. I feel sorry for those who are mind trapped into religion you can be on Team Jesus and therefore the good team and anybody that is not on Team Jesus is the enemy. I find it utterly fascinating that grown adults believe in and dedicate their lives to a mythological being, like Jesus being the Son of God in a work environment, if very religious people are in charge of hiring and promoting they often times, if not all the time make the wrong decision. I've seen this over and over and over again. Sorry! It's just my experience with religious people and its just the way it is. Like robots! Just find comfort in your God and pray for me. *You won't though* Just wave at me and say; "Enjoy the heat muddachucka." It will make you feel a lot better. Trust me. Oh... You don't hardly know any gay people? Then you don't hardly know any Atheist/Agnostic. Just like Muslims lie to a non-believer, so will Christians. NEXT!!!!!!!! what the hell....I mean heaven how do you think I'm going to think about your cult? I notice you beat around the talking burning bush.

The worst being...

quote Originally posted by Wichita: NEXT!!!!!!!!

Of which I've seen in multiple threads that you've posted in.

Unfortunately, you will just assume I'm thin-skinned and that I'm just "being a dumb Christian", then you will sit at your computer and laugh about how stupid we all are compared to you.

It makes me sad.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: They haven't proved anything as to the origin of Humanity, much less the Universe. There is no repeatable experiment. There is no proof by scientific standard. And what Atheist's name is on a hospital? Or on a University? John Harvard founded the first college in the US to train up the clergy. My, how things have changed. And as I peruse my local yellow pages, I find St. Elizabeths, Caritas Christi, Cardinal Cushing, Beth Israel.... Seems Atheists prefer to fund NPR, the ACLU and NARAL....

BILL GATES for one

Dr. Norman Bethune. I've often heard he was an athiest,

Now I don't know if he himself founded any hospitals, but as far as humanitarianism goes, I think he proved himself very devoted to it in his lifetime, between his time spent in spain and china, and even helping to get the canadian government thinking about public healthcare. He also did a lot of work developing methods of treating wounded in wartime, including how to transport blood. and was recognized as a great man by Chairman Mao. I've been told his also the only non-chinese man mentioned in the little red book.


Stephen Girard:
Quote:
In 1793, there was an outbreak of yellow fever in Philadelphia. Although many other well-to-do citizens chose to leave the city, Girard stayed to care for the sick and dying. He supervised the conversion of a mansion outside the city limits into a hospital. For his efforts, Girard was feted as a hero by the City Hall after the outbreak subsided.

Well, here is the reply from American Atheist.

Quote:
In America, as of 1999, 13% of all hospitals were religious (totaling 18% of all hospital beds); that's 604 out of 4,573 hospitals. [6] Despite the presence of organized religion in America, the Church has managed to scrape together only a few hospitals. Of these 604 hospitals many are a product of mergers with public, non-sectarian hospitals. Not all of these 604 hospitals are Catholic; many are Baptist, Methodist, Shriner (Masonic), Jewish, etc.

Despite the religious label, these so-called religious hospitals are more public than public hospitals. Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent. [7]
Quote:
Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, they certainly aren't supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, "Where are all the truly religious hospitals?" Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn't sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private religious hospital free from Atheist support.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: On question 1. An Atheist wouldn't leave somebody just because they are religious nor is their family. I'm sure you would want that person to run away, which isn't very Christian of you. On question 2. Would you leave a family business to an Atheist. That is the question. I notice you beat around the talking burning bush.

On Q1: No, I'd like him to see the Truth. As a few people here are demonstrating, Atheists are awfully stubborn.

On Q2: I checked. You never mentioned a "family" business. I also assume that none of my children are able to run it. Still, Family means more than family. If I felt that I could trust him or her, then why not? You can't take it with you, and, where we'll be, we won't need it.

btw I still think religion caused 9-11
what cult is far less important then believers did it
believers are a danger no matter what version of what fairytale
they happen to believe in

I see no real difference in our home grown believer's
like korish jim jones or tim mcvay the abortion clinic bombers and doctor shooters
and all the nuts that support that kind of terror
and the al-kiddies or tali-ban
and a very very similar program of thou shall not about sex
both nut cults want censorship
both cults hate gays ect

and free people suffer when ever the religious get power over the law

religion is for weak minds
it seeks to limit knowledge [and that alone is WRONG ALWAYS]
IT IS IRRATIONAL
AND VERY EAZY TOO MISUSE FOR VERY BAD RESULTS

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Glad I'm not in one of those "Thou shalt not have sex" cults. It's be hard to hide my four kids....

quote Originally posted by newf: You can make a "cloud" in a two liter plastic bottle, what point are you trying to make?

Does it make it rain? You know, like it did this last season?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Glad I'm not in one of those "Thou shalt not have sex" cults. It's be hard to hide my four kids....

You mean like the shakers? I dont consider them a cult, just a non-reproducing sect. I dont like labeling other god fearing men and women cults because their religious practices are different from mine. That smacks of elitism. "Cult" is what the big church calls the little church, and what does it matter if they both believe and practice what is true in their hearts?

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 07-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by tbone42: He's in good company, then, 'cuz we are all in that same boat. In fact, we all know very little and just blow smoke any time we are caught short on something. Its a pathetic behavior we can all turn our backs on, but most people's egos JUST WONT LET THEM be wrong. Even when they are. Even when you are, even when I am. Although I will admit that nowadays I like being wrong.. I dont strive to be wrong, but when I fall on my ass I get a good laugh out of it. Give it a try. I just must like being different I guess.

I never claim I know all. But I do know that Jesus was not and is not a God of any kind. And that Christianity (all religions really) are not divine but manufactured by man.

That I can take to the bank.

And why is the same "To God, one day could be a million years" still being urged as a valid point for Genesis telling the true story of earth's creation? I guess it's in the Bible (not) but so many Christians use that argument, its astounding and typical.

Behold! A Pale Horse!

quote Originally posted by tbone42: You mean like the shakers? I dont consider them a cult, just a non-reproducing sect. I dont like labeling other god fearing men and women cults because their religious practices are different from mine. That smacks of elitism. "Cult" is what the big church calls the little church, and what does it matter if they both believe and practice what is true in their hearts?

all religions are cults
some are just bigger cults then others
and some are more wacked then others like the westbouro's
but size or wack level aside they are all cults

Aztec cult thought those hearts had to be cut out
or the sun would not rize, was true belief in their hearts

but the real danger of religion is not the main line church
but the nut believers who think god is directing their actions or their leaders
religion and belief cause 19 fools try to crash aircraft in to buildings
atheists do not do crazy chit like that
believers do and will again

quote Originally posted by tbone42: He's in good company, then, 'cuz we are all in that same boat. In fact, we all know very little and just blow smoke any time we are caught short on something. Its a pathetic behavior we can all turn our backs on, but most people's egos JUST WONT LET THEM be wrong. Even when they are. Even when you are, even when I am. Although I will admit that nowadays I like being wrong.. I dont strive to be wrong, but when I fall on my ass I get a good laugh out of it. Give it a try. I just must like being different I guess.

Exactly. None of us know everything. For a reminder, here is a quote from me to Wichita earlier in the thread:

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I stand corrected. I must misinterpret your posts heavily because many times I've thought "Why does he hate religion so much?" I wasn't trying to quote you verbatim on "religious nuts", but nonetheless I'm wrong. I'll try and read your posts differently--maybe I'm creating a self-fulfilling prophesy by already assuming you hate religion.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: And why is the same "To God, one day could be a million years" still being urged as a valid point for Genesis telling the true story of earth's creation? I guess it's in the Bible (not) but so many Christians use that argument, its astounding and typical.

Yeah, but that does not mean I am wrong. Or are you afraid I am right, otherwise why argue about it? Just like I wont be able to change what you believe, I dont see why you think you can change what I believe. That as well is astounding and typical.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 07-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I never claim I know all. But I do know that Jesus was not and is not a God of any kind. And that Christianity (all religions really) are not divine but manufactured by man. That I can take to the bank. And why is the same "To God, one day could be a million years" still being urged as a valid point for Genesis telling the true story of earth's creation? I guess it's in the Bible (not) but so many Christians use that argument, its astounding and typical. Behold! A Pale Horse!

already went thru this earlier - but again: the perception of time is a tricky thing. and, more so - it is NOT a fixed "tick-tock" of the clock. the closer you are to the speed of light, the faster you move thru time in relation to others, which are not moving so fast. and, it has already been shown that the "big bang" - in the initial burst, where God set the universe as we know it in action - things actually moved FASTER than light, before the actual "laws of the universe" set in. so - using Einsteins theories - a day in a million years is EASILY doable, especially when dealing in terms of the creation of the universe.

time is NOT a fixed constant. and all creation is speculation, and none of it makes sense. our minds need edges, beginnings, ending, borders, limits - whatever. the universe does not provide for any of these things. the "Big Bang" is a well put together theory. best one sofar. but - that tiny bit which went "bang" came from somewhere too, didnt it? everything does. infinity. God is infinite. religions tho - yes - endlessly finite. thankfully. and also why Gods word could NEVER be contained within a book. sure - some guidelines - I'll except that. but no more.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Does it make it rain? You know, like it did this last season?

Yes. It's called condensation.

Are those the goal posts I see being moved off into the distance?

quote Originally posted by TK: Are those the goal posts I see being moved off into the distance?

can't win if you dont play

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: can't win if you dont play

I don't play if the goal posts are being moved.

quote Originally posted by TK: I don't play if the goal posts are being moved.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

But my decision to choose has been unfailing.

quote Originally posted by TK: I don't play if the goal posts are being moved.

so, shoot a basket instead

Here's a quote from a hard-core, right wing conservative on the subject of religious intervention in government:

Quote:
“There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.”


guess who said that

One of a couple of well thought of conservatives that wouldn't get a second look in today's arena.

quote Originally posted by ray b: Here's a quote from a hard-core, right wing conservative on the subject of religious intervention in government: Quote: “There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.” guess who said that

I'd guess Barry Goldwater.

He was right on the money. His prediction came to pass and it will take a strong effort to correct it. We can hope but I think it's a long ways away.

Now for a little religious humor: