Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors. At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death." The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.
Well hopefully someone doesn't have to scrape your brains off of some wall because someone should have been waterboarded.
I'd rather die with honor than live like a terrorist... really...
We've become a terrorist nation, full of people who think like terrorists. No principles, no honor, none of the things that used to make us different, special, better than the rest. That spark, that thing, that sense of principle and honor, drifted away like cottonwood seeds in the wind...
I'd rather die with honor than live like a terrorist... really...
We've become a terrorist nation, full of people who think like terrorists. No principles, no honor, none of the things that used to make us different, special, better than the rest. That spark, that thing, that sense of principle and honor, drifted away like cottonwood seeds in the wind...
The folks who blow up children, fly planes in buildings full of innocent people, and so on have changed the rules for war. Sad but true.
The folks who blow up children, fly planes in buildings full of innocent people, and so on have changed the rules for war. Sad but true.
Confusing, innocent people are often called "collateral damage" by some, does that make it OK for their fellow kin or countrymen to change the rules as well?
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 07-20-2011).]
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08:20 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Where did I say that Mr. Carnac? And frankly your last statement is absurd. Why do you libs use the race card in your arguments, and it always seem to come as the parting shot.
Um, I was only asking a question. And you turn and call me a name?
Relax, i'm not that importent.
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08:38 PM
Cliff Pennock Administrator
Posts: 11797 From: Zandvoort, The Netherlands Registered: Jan 99
I didn't read the entire thread (far from it) but I think there's a huge difference between torturing to get a confession, or torturing to retrieve information that might save hundreds/thousands/millions of people.
The movie "Unthinkable" comes to mind.
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08:43 PM
PFF
System Bot
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
Confusing, innocent people are often called "collateral damage" by some, does that make it OK for their fellow kin or countrymen to change the rules as well?
I think there is a bit of difference when the innocent are the TARGETS.
I want terrorists responsible for thousands of American's deaths waterboarded to get information to save countless lives. You want some stranger on the internet that you disagree with "tortured, hopefully by waterboarding", for your own satisfaction and pleasure.
Might be a tough call if it was someone you loved though, hey?
Might be unbearable if I knew they were celebrating their death because the target was gotten. The celebration of innocent being slaughtered is what you seem to be leaving out of the equation.
[This message has been edited by partfiero (edited 07-20-2011).]
Might be unbearable if I knew they were celebrating their death because the target was gotten. The celebration of innocent being slaughtered is what you seem to be leaving out of the equation.
Not really, if someone I loved or cared for was murdered I doubt the murderers celebration, crocodile tears, or even heartfelt "whoops sorry" would be much consolation.
Edit: Having said that I do get the distinction you are making, I just don't know if people care when it's one of their own who is the victim.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 07-20-2011).]
I didn't read the entire thread (far from it) but I think there's a huge difference between torturing to get a confession, or torturing to retrieve information that might save hundreds/thousands/millions of people.
And you would be incorrect in that thought.
Universal rule is that a torture victim will say anything to make it stop. Anything. Truth, lies, (which is what a false confession is), admitting to whatever it takes, that's how it works.
The only people who still think torture is effective are, well, lets just say that extracting useful information isn't the primary goal for them...
Originally posted by Doug85GT: I want terrorists responsible for thousands of American's deaths waterboarded to get information to save countless lives. You want some stranger on the internet that you disagree with "tortured, hopefully by waterboarding", for your own satisfaction and pleasure.
You call me the psychopath.
You of course are lying. For folks like you, lying is effortless, the words oozing from your mouth as effortlessly as you breath. Nevertheless, you just simply can't grasp what being tortured is like if you've never experienced it, and you obviously have no clue as to what it's really like. My suggestion was that if you were to experience it, first hand in the real world instead of as a television fantasy, your understanding would be quite different. Then again, maybe not...
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07:27 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by JazzMan: The only people who still think torture is effective are, well, lets just say that extracting useful information isn't the primary goal for them...
I am afraid you may be right.
But then that brings up a whole 'nother set of questions i'm pretty sure I don't want the answers to.
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07:36 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9704 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
Originally posted by JazzMan: You of course are lying. For folks like you, lying is effortless, the words oozing from your mouth as effortlessly as you breath. Nevertheless, you just simply can't grasp what being tortured is like if you've never experienced it, and you obviously have no clue as to what it's really like. My suggestion was that if you were to experience it, first hand in the real world instead of as a television fantasy, your understanding would be quite different. Then again, maybe not...
Where in the statement that you quoted is the lie?
Also note that this is the 2nd time that you have expressed your desire that I get waterboarded. You have doubled down on your position of no waterboarding for terrorists but you do want a disagreeing stranger on the internet waterboarded.
Originally posted by Doug85GT: Where in the statement that you quoted is the lie?
Also note that this is the 2nd time that you have expressed your desire that I get waterboarded. You have doubled down on your position of no waterboarding for terrorists but you do want a disagreeing stranger on the internet waterboarded.
Another lie. I have said that I don't support waterboarding on anyone, >not< just terrorists (or more accurately, people who use terrorism as a method). Your lie attempts to make it seem like I support terrorism, and of course I don't, never have, and never will. As to you, well, it's obvious how clueless you are on the subject, which I attribute to a fundamental lack of reasoning skills and any human ability to experience empathy. I suspect that if you were subjected to real torture, including waterboarding, that the probability that your experience would destroy your misconceptions and outright fallacies would be very high indeed.
Remember, if you're ok with waterboarding someone you regard as an enemy, then you're ok with an enemy waterboarding one of our soldiers. You can't have one without the other, it's a symmetrical relationship.
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 07-26-2011).]
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01:19 PM
PFF
System Bot
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Remember, if you're ok with waterboarding someone you regard as an enemy, then you're ok with an enemy waterboarding one of our soldiers. You can't have one without the other, it's a symmetrical relationship.
Jazz, if I have learned anything here, it's that you are allowed to do or say anything with rightiousness, as long as you call yourself The Good Guys, and you proclaim your cause to be just in that same regard. My question is this; Do those people really believe that, or are they just knowingly using that excuse to justify the means to their ends?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-26-2011).]
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01:45 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9704 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
Another lie. I have said that I don't support waterboarding on anyone, just just terrorists (or more accurately, people who use terrorism as a method). Your lie attempts to make it seem like I support terrorism, and of course I don't, never have, and never will. As to you, well, it's obvious how clueless you are on the subject, which I attribute to a fundamental lack of reasoning skills and any human ability to experience empathy. I suspect that if you were subjected to real torture, including waterboarding, that the probability that your experience would destroy your misconceptions and outright fallacies would be very high indeed.
Remember, if you're ok with waterboarding someone you regard as an enemy, then you're ok with an enemy waterboarding one of our soldiers. You can't have one without the other, it's a symmetrical relationship.
Jazz, if I have learned anything here, it's that you are allowed to do or say anything with rightiousness, as long as you call yourself The Good Guys, and you proclaim your cause to be just in that same regard. My question is this; Do those people really believe that, or are they just knowingly using that excuse to justify the means to their ends?
Given that torture produces inaccurate and often times useless results, people I've heard who were knowledgeable on the subject say that most motives for torture are actually just to inflict pain for the sake of motives such as revenge. The kind of interrogation that is more productive isn't generally mentioned here, namely building a relationship with the subject based on trust and mutual respect. Yes, it can, and often is, done exactly that way. Saddam's interrogator did it that way and was quite successful. Many others in the service of this nation have done it that way, quite successfully. The interrogations that fail generally are the ones that resort to physical violence, which is what waterboarding is. Proponents of that method (and other forms of torture) are either ignorant, or sadists, in my honest opinion, and deserve exactly the respect they earn from me as a result.
Besides, we signed a treaty promising we wouldn't torture people (fat lot of meaning our word had there) and we convicted at least one person for waterboarding as a war crime. Why was it a war crime then and not now? Maybe it's because to war criminals it doesn't seem like it's a crime?
WHAT SOFTY LIBERAL MORONs Torture works Ive have seen it work ..In lebanon the moslems captured our CIA chief of station in a few days all his informants were killed when i was in the military ,i was required to send any prisoner deemed to know more than how to scratch his zit covered dainty buttocks back to Da nang,,not one bit of info came back,,I turn a NVA officer & VC fighter over to the Vietnamese Marine NCO,s ,the intel Damn burst info flowed like water ,reaL TIME EXCELLENT act now intel. Viet Marine ambush patrols scored big kills,Village life became safer If you think torture does not work just think you are in a chair & you see my fat gut & grinning 70 year old face with the squinting left eye come in the tent, & thier is a pair of very large pliers in my hands ,, I could not shut most of you squeeks up . Part of the info on Ben laden came from intense interogation, intel on terr leaders is not from one source,ben laden was stupid, thought the american liberals & pakistan intel networks would protect him ,,it took us many months to act on the intel we had,,Im surprised Ben laden waited around for us ,it took Obama many weeks to make a decision to kill his Moslem hero,but he finally did it,, For your information the Paki intel rounded up the ben laden watchers who were watching the compound from the ground ,, torturing the first suspect , led to all the rest .. ..many of thier women were then raped,, the ragheads are big on brutal rape,often after gang bang rapes, the women are placed in a prison cell nude with a snake,, this is an Iran fav tactic by the Mullah religious police, adopted by paki intel..these women will now sell out thier mother,s
I would not talk if some pansy waterboarded me ,but show me the piers .......... only a complete moron thinks torture does not work ,stop reading the new york times ..FORGOT!! THE JAPS DID MORE THAN WATERBOARD TO RATE HANGING,,!,000,000 JAPS SHOULD HAVE BEEN HUNG ,JUSTIFIED ,..if a certain General HAD BEEN ON THE BAATAN DEATH MARCH , hanging would have taken 5000 pounds of rope ..98% of Americans have no Idea what the japs did
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 07-26-2011).]
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10:18 PM
Dec 18th, 2011
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
I got shot down over N Vietnam in 1967, a Sqdn. Commander. After I returned in 1973....I published 2 books that dealt a lot With "real torture" in Hanoi . Our make-believe president is Branding our country as a bunch of torturers when he has No idea what torture is.
As for me, I was put thru a mock execution because I would not respond... Pistol whipped on the head....same event.. Couple of days later... Hung by my feet all day. I escaped and a couple of weeks later, I got Shot and recaptured. Shot was OK...what happened afterwards was not.
They marched me to Vinh...put me in the rope trick, trick...almost Pulled my arms out of the sockets. Beat me on the head with a Little wooden rod until my eyes were swelled shut, and my unshot, Unbroken hand a pulp.
Next day hung me by the arms....rebroke my right wrist...wiped Out the nerves in my arms that control the hands....rolled my fingers Up into a ball. Only left the slightest movement of my L forefinger. So I started answering with some incredible lies.
Sent me to Hanoi strapped to a barrel of gas in the back of a truck.
Hanoi ..on my knees....rope trick again. Beaten by a big fool.
Into leg irons on a bed in Heartbreak Hotel.
Much kneeling--hands up at Zoo.
Really bad beating for refusing to condemn Lyndon Johnson.
Several more kneeling events. I could see my knee bone thru Kneeling holes.
There was an escape from the annex to the Zoo. I was the Senior Officer of a large building because of escape...they started a mass Torture of all commanders.
I think it was July 7, 1969..they started beating me with a car fan belt. In first 2 days I took over 300 strokes...then stopped counting Because I never thought I would live thru it.
They continued day-night torture to get me to confess to a non-existent Part in the escape. This went on for at least 3 days. On my knees... Fan belting...cut open my scrotum with fan belt stroke. Opened up Both knee holes again. My fanny looked like hamburger..I could not Lie on my back.
They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape...and That my 2 room-mates knew about it.
The next day I denied the lie.
They commenced torturing me again with 3- 6- or 9 strokes of The fan belt every day from about July 11 or 12th..to 14 October 1969. I continued to refuse to lie about my roommates again.
Now, the point of this is that our make-believe President has declared to the world that we (U.S..) are a bunch of Torturers...Thus it will be OK to torture us next time when they Catch us...because that is what the U.S Does.
Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks That pouring a little water on some one's face, or hanging a pair of women's pants over an Arabs head is TORTURE.. He is a meathead.
I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness, who was also in my squadron, In jail...as was John McCain...and we agree that McCain does Not speak for the POW group when he claims that Al Gharib was Torture...or that "water boarding" is torture.
Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing Our great country are a disgrace to the United States . Please pass This info on to Sean Hannity. He is free to use it to point out the Stupidity of the claims that water boarding...which has no after Effect...is torture. If it got the Arab to cough up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin towers in NYC ... Hurrah for the guy who poured the water!! ____________________________________________________________________
" Bud " Day, Medal Of Honor Recipient
George Everett " Bud " Day(born February 24, 1925) is a retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and Command Pilot who served during the Vietnam War. He is often cited as being the most decorated U.S. . Service member since General Douglas MacArthur, having Received some seventy decorations, a majority for actions In combat. Day is a recipient of the Medal of Honor.
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11:18 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
