Marked "Religion" because of the nature of the question; the "slice" of life that the subject of this thread assumes. What I don't want is a discussion of the validity or the "science" of faith/religion. Been done to death elsewhere. I'm looking for help for a specific purpose.

Please.


I've thought about joining and posting on writing and Christian (and combination) forums, but decided that I'd start here because there are many who have provided thoughtful answers without being condescending to opposing views. That said:

I am writing a book - it's nearly 9,000 words, thus far - and have a bit of a conundrum.

The book is set in approximately 2035. Far off enough that there will be some significant technological breakthroughs, but just as likely sociological "breakthroughs" as well. It seems that stretching technology is not that difficult. Stretching society is.

If you don't know me, I'm a Christian, and my book is written from that POV. Not that I can't write a story without Christianity, - I have, in fact - it happens to be central to this one. Think "Left Behind," but not really End Times fiction. So I'm writing to an audience....

Here's the issue: Socialism/Atheism/Humanism/Women's Rights/Gay Rights/Animal Rights/New World Order/etc, etc, etc.

In my lifetime, Government has become more intrusive, Religion and Faith has been pushed out of institutions that it has been coexisting with for decades, even centuries, people get special rights because of the their gender or sexual orientation, animals lives are equal or greater than people, etc. So, how much farther can it go?

Again, I don't want to debate the legitimacy of Gay Marriage (for instance). I will accept this as a given in 22 years. I have even assumed that a "Marriage Contract" regardless of genders, will have a "time limit," just like a driver's license. The ability of parents (or a parent) to kill a six month old baby has been discussed since the 1980s, at least (reclassifying the baby as a "neonate") - this may be legal in the context of the story, but I don't think that I would explore that in this setting.

From the Christian perspective, we know that this must happen:

2 Timothy 3:1-4: But understand this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than loving God.

From other perspectives, this may be "evolved" behavior?

I find myself being unable to imagine what society might evolve into in the next two decades. I truly think that the worst that I can think of might be rather lightweight compared to what will actually come to pass. What do Atheists/Humanists want - other than the repression of Faith - out of society?

Discuss:

I think that you might be interested in something that came out as news today--just in case you haven't seen this:

Air Force Suspends Christian-Themed Ethics Training Program Over Bible Passages

The Air Force has suspended a course that was taught by chaplains for more than 20 years because the material included Bible passages.

The course, called “Christian Just War Theory” was taught by chaplains at Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif., and used Scripture from both the Old and New Testaments to show missile launch officers that it can be moral to go to war.

But the watchdog group, Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said the course violated the constitutional separation of church and state and filed a complaint last Wednesday on behalf of 31 missile launch officers – both instructors and students.

http://www.foxnews.com/poli...-program-over-bible/


Jesus Loves Nukes? Air Force Probes Chaplains' Nuclear Ethics Course

The Air Force recently suspended a military ethics course taught by chaplains because the training referenced the Bible and featured religious imagery.

Church and State separatists herald the decision as a victory for the U.S. Constitution. However, legal group Liberty Counsel argues that chaplains, by right of their office, are free to invoke religious themes in their trainings.

http://www.christianpost.co...-nukes-course-53304/

With the continued downward degradation of society it's hard to imagine how thing might be in 20 years. The narcissism of many people as well as other ills of society is counter to how family and community units worked together for the betterment of all in the early 1900's. Every generation complains about how the next is going to pot. It's hard to imagine what would have to happen to alter the slow erosion of society.
OK time to stop I'm getting depressed..

It's past my bedtime, so I can't help you too much, but I think your timeline is correct. It's been an exponential curve for the progress/regress you are noting.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: From the Christian perspective, we know that this must happen: 2 Timothy 3:1-4: But understand this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than loving God. From other perspectives, this may be "evolved" behavior? I find myself being unable to imagine what society might evolve into in the next two decades. I truly think that the worst that I can think of might be rather lightweight compared to what will actually come to pass. What do Atheists/Humanists want - other than the repression of Faith - out of society? Discuss:

I like that you used the word "perspective", it really depends on what perspective you are viewing these things from.

As a Christian are you living to the same standards of Christianity as say people did 200 years ago? Or have your own standards "evolved"?
(Not trying in any way to single you out or judge you personally as good or bad in terms of Christianity BTW, more of a point about perspective)

Also many Agnostics that I know fully respect Christians AND other people of other faiths and would rather see all faiths treated fairly.

In fact using this forum as an example I would submit that many of the people who have shared their views on religion as Agnostic/Athiest often come across to me(see perspective again ) as more "Christ like" in their attitudes/opinions and treatment of others than many of the so called Christians.

quote Originally posted by newf: I like that you used the word "perspective", it really depends on what perspective you are viewing these things from. As a Christian are you living to the same standards of Christianity as say people did 200 years ago? Or have your own standards "evolved"? (Not trying in any way to single you out or judge you personally as good or bad in terms of Christianity BTW, more of a point about perspective) Also many Agnostics that I know fully respect Christians AND other people of other faiths and would rather see all faiths treated fairly. In fact using this forum as an example I would submit that many of the people who have shared their views on religion as Agnostic/Athiest often come across to me(see perspective again ) as more "Christ like" in their attitudes/opinions and treatment of others than many of the so called Christians.

I'm not sure that one can live as a Christian did 200 (or 2000) years ago. 200 years ago, illiteracy was much greater, but many values that would be considered "Christian" now were much more universal than they are now. Gay marriage, abortion, teenage dating, rock & roll, drunk driving, etc didn't exist. "Sinners in the hand of an Angry God" generated revival - the First Great Awakening. Even twenty or thirty years ago - my wife grew up in a Catholic home, and was amazed at my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the Bible. Her parents didn't read (it), they listened to homilies. It wasn't a given in her home. Our son, at nine (six years ago) decided to read the Bible cover to cover, something that I'd done in a year the year before. This was somewhat strange to her. She's getting used to it.

My own personal faith has evolved, as well. I grew up (liberal) Jewish. My avowed conservatism (fiscal and social) is well documented here. I have been considering a number of things that I've held, and exploring as many angles as I can. These may also become fodder for later threads. Not here.

And, no doubt that there are tolerant and intolerant Christians as well as Atheists. That's why I posted what I did up there. As an example of my "evolution," I've taken many Forum members regarding their inability to understand or unwillingness to concede that Christianity has anything of value to contribute. And I, in the past, have been very unforgiving of those attitudes. I've come to realize that it's not my job to convince; I can only be me, speak the Truth in Love, and let God sort them out as He will.

As an example, I've been incredibly set against Gay Marriage. I've been disgusted that, in the Commonwealth of MA, as in other states, it's been foisted on us by liberal courts, not voted on by the people after due discussion and process. I've come to a place were I can accept that pretty much anything and everything that God has set forth as an absolute will be legislated against or rendered unimportant by legislature or judicial fiat. All Christians can do, as we did in Roman society, is to live as God wants us to, and we will be presented in sharp relief to our surroundings. 2000 years ago, Christianity grew from 12 to thousands in a very short time, despite the threat of death by large cats. I wonder how they'll kill us in thirty years....

So, what will we find ourselves in stark relief to? That is the question....

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: And, no doubt that there are tolerant and intolerant Christians as well as Atheists. That's why I posted what I did up there. As an example of my "evolution," I've taken many Forum members regarding their inability to understand or unwillingness to concede that Christianity has anything of value to contribute. And I, in the past, have been very unforgiving of those attitudes. I've come to realize that it's not my job to convince; I can only be me, speak the Truth in Love, and let God sort them out as He will.

I like this part in particular.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-04-2011).]

really? do christians really think people are "out to get them"? still clinging to the Romans & The Lions?
I would think that little incident thousands of years ago would pale in the face of things like the Concetration camps the Jews dealt with. or the US Armed forces the Muslims currently have to deal with. I would think the Christ crowd is floating thru just fine. But, I do see what you are looking for. How is society gonna harass religion in the future. because we all know it will. Will the religions "gang up" against the infidels? maybe a crazy story just in how that comes together. can you picture the "Jew God" armies, broken into 3 main divisions, overruning & disposing of all the homosexuals? General Jew, Commander Christian & Major Muslim all huddled together in a tent on the battlefield spouting instructions. Somewhere along the way, the clouds part, and the One True God pokes his head thru, and gives 'em all an "at-a-boy".
yes....how much worse can it get....?
sorry about the sharp wording

I question how long it will take for society to progress far enough technologically that religion becomes obsolete. Twenty years is a short time frame, but perhaps fifty? One hundred? Technology and our understanding of the universe increases at an exponential rate - we've progressed more as a species in the past two hundred years than in the first hundred thousand years of human kind. If we continue at this rate, society will inevitably reach a point where science and logic overpower religious beliefs.

In the context of your book, I see would anticipate increased "persecution" of all major religions in the next few decades, which would force these religions to evolve in order to stay relevant. Thirty years from now Christianity may be forced to progress to a point where its followers believe and practice the teachings of Christ, but don't believe in "God". (There would, of course, be traditionalists, but I imagine they would be given the same amount of credibility as, say, Scientologists today.)

This type of 'religious evolution' has been consistent through history - most Christians today, for example, don't actually believe that Noah saved all of the animals on his giant boat. It's reasonable to assume that as society advances and our understanding of our existence grows, all religions will have to undergo major changes or fall into obscurity.

By 2035, what will the arguments about Darwinian evolution vs. Intelligent Design be like? If I understand the Catholic doctrine correctly (according to the Pope) it's OK to accept that the human body is a product of Darwinian evolution, but every person's soul is "transfused" (inserted?) into their body by God. Will the Catholic Church still be holding to this idea in 2035?

quote Originally posted by 8-P: I question how long it will take for society to progress far enough technologically that religion becomes obsolete. Twenty years is a short time frame, but perhaps fifty? One hundred? Technology and our understanding of the universe increases at an exponential rate - we've progressed more as a species in the past two hundred years than in the first hundred thousand years of human kind. If we continue at this rate, society will inevitably reach a point where science and logic overpower religious beliefs. In the context of your book, I see would anticipate increased "persecution" of all major religions in the next few decades, which would force these religions to evolve in order to stay relevant. Thirty years from now Christianity may be forced to progress to a point where its followers believe and practice the teachings of Christ, but don't believe in "God". (There would, of course, be traditionalists, but I imagine they would be given the same amount of credibility as, say, Scientologists today.) This type of 'religious evolution' has been consistent through history - most Christians today, for example, don't actually believe that Noah saved all of the animals on his giant boat. It's reasonable to assume that as society advances and our understanding of our existence grows, all religions will have to undergo major changes or fall into obscurity.

This post (and Pyrthian's) answer the OP's question, just not in the way they intend their replies to do so.

I wanted to quote this post (over Pyrthian's) because it always amazes me when people display unquestioning faith towards science and technology while decrying the "fairy tales" of religion, when many scientific "truths" are just as dogmatic as any religion that ever existed.

And I disagree that churches will have to change to keep up with society. Perhaps they will have to embrace new technologies for getting their message out to the masses ("go ye therefore and teach all nations..."), but when I see a major Christian denomination turning away from their core doctrines to attract new members it merely reinforces the importance of those doctrines.

From where I stand, the OP is right. Society IS declining, at least from a moral standpoint. A discussion about christianity and religion isn't the important part of the question (though to be fair to those who have replied, the OP *did* bring it up.) Traditional values are failing. Respect for your elders, social etiquette, work ethic, accountibility, integrity, etc. are all being peeled away. This is "progress" to some. To me is a sad sacrifice of the conernerstones of the foundation of our society. I am not afraid of technology, nor am I worried about what science can "prove" or "disprove." Look at global warming, as dogmatic a group as there ever was. If the adherance of this group to the scientific method is any indication of how science is done today, I seriously doubt they can cook up proof that a creator is out/not there.

funny how you neo-conn's all claim to support strict constitutional laws
EXCEPT ABOUT YOUR RELIGIONS
and there alone want something other then the strict MAKE NO LAWS the constitution demands

your fairytails have no place in law
your observed hate for gays rights along with womans rights
clearly shows no respect for those who do not follow your cults rules

the real question is how much better would a world not based in fairytales be
with no idiot believers flying aircraft into buildings
or bombing or shooting doctors
or try to terrorize their own kids with this fear based BS fairytales

quote Originally posted by ray b: funny how you neo-conn's all claim to support strict constitutional laws EXCEPT ABOUT YOUR RELIGIONS and there alone want something other then the strict MAKE NO LAWS the constitution demands your fairytails have no place in law your observed hate for gays rights along with womans rights clearly shows no respect for those who do not follow your cults rules the real question is how much better would a world not based in fairytales be with no idiot believers flying aircraft into buildings or bombing or shooting doctors or try to terrorize their own kids with this fear based BS fairytales

Hey man, I'm with ya, but you're not contributing anything useful here. OP's looking for book ideas - not a lecture on why religion is wrong. Take it to another thread.

So the question is, "What will life be like in 2035" ? I don't think John Titor was far off.

Animal rights? (One of the "issues" referenced by the OP..) How about this?

Buddhists "liberate" 534 live lobsters, saving them from dinner tables..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...d_news/#.Tjry93Op0nk

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: really? do christians really think people are "out to get them"? still clinging to the Romans & The Lions? I would think that little incident thousands of years ago would pale in the face of things like the Concetration camps the Jews dealt with. or the US Armed forces the Muslims currently have to deal with. I would think the Christ crowd is floating thru just fine. But, I do see what you are looking for. How is society gonna harass religion in the future. because we all know it will. Will the religions "gang up" against the infidels? maybe a crazy story just in how that comes together. can you picture the "Jew God" armies, broken into 3 main divisions, overruning & disposing of all the homosexuals? General Jew, Commander Christian & Major Muslim all huddled together in a tent on the battlefield spouting instructions. Somewhere along the way, the clouds part, and the One True God pokes his head thru, and gives 'em all an "at-a-boy". yes....how much worse can it get....? sorry about the sharp wording

Pyrth, the fact is, religions are being persecuted all over the world. Contrary to your thinking, Islam puts itself at odds to Christianity and Judaism. It's in the Koran (however it may be spelled). Christians and Jews are to be killed and you Atheists ( ) are to be subjugated. I can reference this, if you'd like.

In Socialist and Totalitarianist regimes, Christians of all stripes are jailed, tortured and killed. It happens regularly in China, and in many African countries, the jailing and torture are skipped.

We live in a very cushy society in a very cushy time in history. It wasn't always this way, and will not always be this way.

I wonder what the balance is in that persecution
I suspect far more christians are doing the persecution
then the numbers of christians who are actually getting it from other religions

are you aware of the anti-gay protestant efforts in Africa too

quote Originally posted by ray b: funny how you neo-conn's all claim to support strict constitutional laws EXCEPT ABOUT YOUR RELIGIONS and there alone want something other then the strict MAKE NO LAWS the constitution demands your fairytails have no place in law your observed hate for gays rights along with womans rights clearly shows no respect for those who do not follow your cults rules the real question is how much better would a world not based in fairytales be with no idiot believers flying aircraft into buildings or bombing or shooting doctors or try to terrorize their own kids with this fear based BS fairytales

Hi rayb! How's the fam?

This is exactly the type of thinking that I'm looking for, only, I could ask, what will rayb of 2025 - 2030 be like?

I say that I don't approve of gay marriage - I don't think that two men who identify themselves by who they sleep with, choosing to sleep with only one another, constitutes Marriage, and should proffer them the same accords society has provided to "Man and Wife," especially the raising of children, which is too thorny a subject to explore in this post. No where did I offer up hate to the two men (or two women). They are God's creations, and need Redemption as much - no more and no less - than myself or rayb. They are no less loved by Him, nor is what they do better or worse than what I do or have done.

"For God so loved rayb and Patrick's Dad and the two hypothetical gay guys, that He gave His only begotten Son...."

Also, I believe it is wrong to kill a little girl before she has a chance to be born. rayb believes that the little girl is the property of the big girl, and can be done away with at a whim, therefore, I hate women, too, and believe that they should be subjugated.

And, of course, since I believe in a God that wants all to be saved, I am taking flight training to make sure that doesn't happen to rayb when I fly an L-1011 into his condo. Hypothetically.

rayb is not unique, there are many who think like he does, and untold percentages of them work for the Government, including at the top three or so posts. Progressives have spent the last fifty years or so dominating the Legislative and Judicial branches at all levels, educational institutions and the press to create the illusion that everyone thinks like they do. It is no coincidence that they are concerted in their efforts to regulate the interwebs as well as any other mode of free speech and enterprise. Dependence is the key to the Progressive movement.

That said, the type of socialistic Totalitarianism is where we are headed. Unchecked spending has caused unequaled dependence on the State, and, if illegal aliens become Citizens without having to go through all the messy stuff that our great grandparents did, the Liberal will have a huge voting bloc that is already costing us $12B annually. The suppression of dissenting though is already central to the fight, as all the major networks regularly gang up on Fox News and Matt Drudge. Interestingly, with that kind of money (and George Soros's help) they should be able to quash these two "Davids." In the future, maybe they will, and the Progressive voice will be the only one that America gets to hear. What happens to the free thinker, and the "gun nut," such as we have here on the Forum? What happens to the free exchange of ideas on a Forum such as this? What happens to dreams, when only the Government pays for them?

Anyways, back O/T: How will rayb be thinking twenty years from now? Speculation?

Things really don't change as much as we would like to think, same ride, same road, different mode of transport! LOL
Looking to the future is easy enough, simply look at the past, look at any major "world" empire. The Roman Empire is well enough documented to give clues as to where we are heading, if you look closely you will see the parallels.

Where are we headed, most likely back to the Dark Ages.

------------------
Dealing with failure is easy: work hard to improve. Success is also easy to handle: you've solved the wrong problem, work hard to improve.

If you want to know what will happen in the future, look at examples in the past. What you describe is similar to some of the worst years of ancient Rome with the exception of Gay marriage.

You can also look to Soviet Russia and Pre-1990's China.

.

[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 08-04-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: If you want to know what will happen in the future, look at examples in the past. What you describe is similar to some of the worst years of ancient Rome with the exception of Gay marriage. You can also look to Soviet Russia and Pre-1990's China.

As I said, I have a feeling that things can get much worse. The USSR and China never had the social issues brought to bear as we have in the last two decades. The envelope is continually being pushed, so the parallel, I believe, only goes so far. Certainly, religious persecution in China and the Pogroms in Russia may be learning tools, but I have a feeling that we now have ways to make them look like birthday parties.... The Holocaust? Possibly not, but maybe "1984" style reprogramming?

I thought that my Fiero buddies would have more imagination than this.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: And, of course, since I believe in a God that wants all to be saved, I am taking flight training to make sure that doesn't happen to rayb when I fly an L-1011 into his condo. Hypothetically.

Now you are just being rediculous. L1011s haven't seen regular use in over twenty years!

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: rayb is not unique, there are many who think like he does, and untold percentages of them work for the Government, including at the top three or so posts. Progressives have spent the last fifty years or so dominating the Legislative and Judicial branches at all levels, educational institutions and the press to create the illusion that everyone thinks like they do. It is no coincidence that they are concerted in their efforts to regulate the interwebs as well as any other mode of free speech and enterprise. Dependence is the key to the Progressive movement. That said, the type of socialistic Totalitarianism is where we are headed. Unchecked spending has caused unequaled dependence on the State, and, if illegal aliens become Citizens without having to go through all the messy stuff that our great grandparents did, the Liberal will have a huge voting bloc that is already costing us $12B annually. The suppression of dissenting though is already central to the fight, as all the major networks regularly gang up on Fox News and Matt Drudge. Interestingly, with that kind of money (and George Soros's help) they should be able to quash these two "Davids." In the future, maybe they will, and the Progressive voice will be the only one that America gets to hear. What happens to the free thinker, and the "gun nut," such as we have here on the Forum? What happens to the free exchange of ideas on a Forum such as this? What happens to dreams, when only the Government pays for them?

Wow! I actually find it kind of sad that you manage to view your religion through such a political lens.

I have so much to tell you, but I cannot.
You will just have to read my book.
Although it now seems to be highly incapable of finding it's end.
I think you would especially like it.

It seems where mine is weak, yours is strong, and visa-versa.

quote Originally posted by newf: Do you recongnize that many religions have been the biggest persecuters over time including Christians. No no let me guess "they" weren't real Christians?

Not answerable. Anything that I write would be unacceptable.

quote As for the claims of persecution in China and Africa do you care to show examples as to who is doing this persecution and why? I'm sure we can come up with plenty of persecuting by religions.

90 Christians arrested in Egypt

Pastor still jailed after two years in China

Church shut down under threat of violence in Indonesia

Pastors fined for praying in Kazakhstan

Churches seized by police in Zimbabwe

Churches torched in Zanzibar

Christian girl kidnapped, traumatized in The Sudan

And that's just from two websites....

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: 90 Christians arrested in Egypt Pastor still jailed after two years in China Church shut down under threat of violence in Indonesia Pastors fined for praying in Kazakhstan Churches seized by police in Zimbabwe Churches torched in Zanzibar Christian girl kidnapped, traumatized in The Sudan And that's just from two websites....

Yup, people are being persecuted alright but is this evidence that Christians are being persecuted by a political ideal only or is it that they are just being persecuted? I doubt Christians are being more persecuted than any other groups.

quote Originally posted by newf: Yup, people are being persecuted alright but is this evidence that Christians are being persecuted by a political ideal only or is it that they are just being persecuted? I doubt Christians are being more persecuted than any other groups.

What is the difference? When a person is persecuted, they are persecuted. These are Christians being persecuted for their faith, whether by Muslims or by Atheistic Communists.

Jews are persecuted worldwide - Swastikas sprayed on temples and homes in the USA, attacks from Palestine, etc.

Women are raped and disfigured in Africa

et. al.

Who cares why?

Back O/T, I expect it to get worse here in the US, but how? I have given thought to the Roman analogy - that Christianity, not being PC is all but outlawed. Churches get strong armed with PILOT and other taxes/fees until they get shut down, so that House Churches sprout (similar to China now) as an underground network. Certainly Christian speech - not just evangelism, but even "Keep the faith" or "I'll pray for you" - is considered hate speech, and a jailable offense. These are possibilities.

What else?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: What is the difference? When a person is persecuted, they are persecuted. These are Christians being persecuted for their faith, whether by Muslims or by Atheistic Communists. Jews are persecuted worldwide - Swastikas sprayed on temples and homes in the USA, attacks from Palestine, etc. Women are raped and disfigured in Africa et. al. Who cares why? Back O/T, I expect it to get worse here in the US, but how? I have given thought to the Roman analogy - that Christianity, not being PC is all but outlawed. Churches get strong armed with PILOT and other taxes/fees until they get shut down, so that House Churches sprout (similar to China now) as an underground network. Certainly Christian speech - not just evangelism, but even "Keep the faith" or "I'll pray for you" - is considered hate speech, and a jailable offense. These are possibilities. What else?

OK then it doesn't matter why, or who I guess.

Let me just say then interesting perspective you have.

As for what will happen by 2035? I say technology will continue to advance at an accelerated rate as will our understanding of the universe. This is not to be confused with repression of anyones faith. As I said many of the non religious (Agnostic and the like) people I have talked to are the most "Christ" like in their attitude and opinion of others while the more ardent followers of religion seem to harbour hate, the perspective of constantly be persecuted, and "knowing" what others don't or are supposedly ignorant to. My guess is you could have wrote your book at anytime after the rise of Christianity and it would be basically the same theme and concerns.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-04-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: What do Atheists/Humanists want - other than the repression of Faith - out of society?

Well, to start with, perhaps a willingness on the part of the religious to listen, rather than to project your fears onto those of us who do not believe as you do, and to try to make us bogey-men. That would be a refreshing change.

I am an atheist. I make no claim to speak for other atheists, much less "Humanists." But I can tell you how I feel about such things.

I have no desire to "repress" anyone's faith. At the same time, I do not respect another's "right" to impose his (or her) "faith" on me. For example, if I wish to hold a position of responsibility in my community, or (for a wider path) in my nation, I should not be first obligated to lie by taking an oath predicated on belief in a god in which I do not believe.

If Christians are offended that I might object to their taking over the town square for their "Nativity," well, it happens that my tax dollars, too, helped pay for the town square. I do not care what belief you want to have, or what expression of that belief you wish to make. Do it on your own property. We're good.

As for your statement that atheists want to "repress" "Faith." I do not deny that there are militant atheists who might (from your viewpoint) meet your own (somewhat self-serving) generalization. But oh, those of "Faith" are militant, too. There are militant Hindus. Militant Sikhs. Militant Muslims. And, (dare I say it), militant Christians. (Anybody ever hear of an abortion-clinic doctor being offed on his way into work?)

Do you embrace the methods of the militant Christians? If you do, we have little else to talk about, here. If you do not, then by what right do you assume the right to lump all atheists into one pot?

My dream of the future is one in which those in power do not use their position to thrust their beliefs down the throats of others.

By 2035, Aliens with technology/methods that can read your intent and your heart will come take the people who no longer want to be bothered by the violent and power hungry away from this planet, so all the rest of you monkeys can FINALLY blow each other up. Good riddance to ya.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 08-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Pyrth, the fact is, religions are being persecuted all over the world. Contrary to your thinking, Islam puts itself at odds to Christianity and Judaism. It's in the Koran (however it may be spelled). Christians and Jews are to be killed and you Atheists ( ) are to be subjugated. I can reference this, if you'd like. In Socialist and Totalitarianist regimes, Christians of all stripes are jailed, tortured and killed. It happens regularly in China, and in many African countries, the jailing and torture are skipped. We live in a very cushy society in a very cushy time in history. It wasn't always this way, and will not always be this way.

I dont doubt that at all. Just as many here fear Sharia Law, I expect these places where there isnt christianity, and some folk insist on "spreading their word", you will run into the same resistance. unfortunately for y'all, you cant just mow them down anymore like you did the native americans. a fitting afterlife for those folk would be an eternity on the "Happy Hunting Grounds" as prey.

and, yes, I do not doubt one bit on the ever increasing aggression of the Jew God religions. one incarnation being more violent than the previous. yes, I do fear Muslim maniacs more the Christian maniacs. and, the Jew maniacs the least.

but, anyways, back to the topic - How much worse can it get?
I really think you should ask the Jews & Muslims, because they seem to be "eating it" a heckuva alot worse than you poor hapless christians. Heck, just read the posts on PFF. Imagine being Muslim here. We have ONE that is brave enough to admit to it. and, I am sure there are Jews, but not even ONE has "fessed up". How much worse can it get? ask them. They are already in the place you fear. In a nation which preaches freedom to worship as you choose. And, guess who it is that is "they" fear? The Christians. How much worse can it get, indeed......

yes....from the top, there is only one way to go, isnt there......

Religious Harassment on Rise Throughout the World, Report Finds

Worshippers are under attack in more countries as governments crack down on religion, and social hostilities grow, according to a new report.

The report, by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, looked at statistics and government data spanning from 2006 to 2009, and uses such criteria as government crackdowns on religion and social hostility, including religious-motivated bias, beatings and murder, to determine which countries were the least tolerant to religion. . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/worl...nds/?test=latestnews

quote Originally posted by ray b: I wonder what the balance is in that persecution I suspect far more christians are doing the persecution then the numbers of christians who are actually getting it from other religions are you aware of the anti-gay protestant efforts in Africa too

Ray, your gonna love the day they give you the authority to execute any Christian you find. Its just gonna be ironic, that your gonna be the monster you claim religion is.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: I question how long it will take for society to progress far enough technologically that religion becomes obsolete. Twenty years is a short time frame, but perhaps fifty? One hundred? Technology and our understanding of the universe increases at an exponential rate - we've progressed more as a species in the past two hundred years than in the first hundred thousand years of human kind. If we continue at this rate, society will inevitably reach a point where science and logic overpower religious beliefs. In the context of your book, I see would anticipate increased "persecution" of all major religions in the next few decades, which would force these religions to evolve in order to stay relevant. Thirty years from now Christianity may be forced to progress to a point where its followers believe and practice the teachings of Christ, but don't believe in "God". (There would, of course, be traditionalists, but I imagine they would be given the same amount of credibility as, say, Scientologists today.) This type of 'religious evolution' has been consistent through history - most Christians today, for example, don't actually believe that Noah saved all of the animals on his giant boat. It's reasonable to assume that as society advances and our understanding of our existence grows, all religions will have to undergo major changes or fall into obscurity.

He could add in the conflict of having to depend on the separate of church and state to ensure their continued right to their faith. Right now, the push is to allow more christian references (or stop removing them) in government whereas the introduction of a competitive religion (like say Islam) might require those same people to use the separation to keep it out and therefore have to back off on the christian desire to close the gap. Add some additional conflict.

quote Originally posted by Shyster: Well, to start with, perhaps a willingness on the part of the religious to listen, rather than to project your fears onto those of us who do not believe as you do, and to try to make us bogey-men. That would be a refreshing change. I am an atheist. I make no claim to speak for other atheists, much less "Humanists." But I can tell you how I feel about such things. I have no desire to "repress" anyone's faith. At the same time, I do not respect another's "right" to impose his (or her) "faith" on me. For example, if I wish to hold a position of responsibility in my community, or (for a wider path) in my nation, I should not be first obligated to lie by taking an oath predicated on belief in a god in which I do not believe. If Christians are offended that I might object to their taking over the town square for their "Nativity," well, it happens that my tax dollars, too, helped pay for the town square. I do not care what belief you want to have, or what expression of that belief you wish to make. Do it on your own property. We're good. As for your statement that atheists want to "repress" "Faith." I do not deny that there are militant atheists who might (from your viewpoint) meet your own (somewhat self-serving) generalization. But oh, those of "Faith" are militant, too. There are militant Hindus. Militant Sikhs. Militant Muslims. And, (dare I say it), militant Christians. (Anybody ever hear of an abortion-clinic doctor being offed on his way into work?) Do you embrace the methods of the militant Christians? If you do, we have little else to talk about, here. If you do not, then by what right do you assume the right to lump all atheists into one pot? My dream of the future is one in which those in power do not use their position to thrust their beliefs down the throats of others.

Best thing I've seen written in this thread to date.

I wonder if those who would like to make this government ostensibly Christian (mostly evangelicals such as Baptists) like it supposedly was at its founding were aware of the fact that at it's founding Baptists were considered heretics and were routinely hunted down and killed?