quote Originally posted by Shyster: Well, to start with, perhaps a willingness on the part of the religious to listen, rather than to project your fears onto those of us who do not believe as you do, and to try to make us bogey-men. That would be a refreshing change. I am an atheist. I make no claim to speak for other atheists, much less "Humanists." But I can tell you how I feel about such things. I have no desire to "repress" anyone's faith. At the same time, I do not respect another's "right" to impose his (or her) "faith" on me. For example, if I wish to hold a position of responsibility in my community, or (for a wider path) in my nation, I should not be first obligated to lie by taking an oath predicated on belief in a god in which I do not believe. If Christians are offended that I might object to their taking over the town square for their "Nativity," well, it happens that my tax dollars, too, helped pay for the town square. I do not care what belief you want to have, or what expression of that belief you wish to make. Do it on your own property. We're good. As for your statement that atheists want to "repress" "Faith." I do not deny that there are militant atheists who might (from your viewpoint) meet your own (somewhat self-serving) generalization. But oh, those of "Faith" are militant, too. There are militant Hindus. Militant Sikhs. Militant Muslims. And, (dare I say it), militant Christians. (Anybody ever hear of an abortion-clinic doctor being offed on his way into work?) Do you embrace the methods of the militant Christians? If you do, we have little else to talk about, here. If you do not, then by what right do you assume the right to lump all atheists into one pot? My dream of the future is one in which those in power do not use their position to thrust their beliefs down the throats of others.

How is a creche "imposing" faith? Would a Menorah be an imposition of faith? How does either impose, when most understand that expression does not equal imposition, but that it is simply because of the season? What is wrong with a little "Peace on Earth and Good Will towards Men?"

Would you want to put a dinosaur (for lack of anything else that I can come up with off the top if my head) on the town green?

Do you avert your eyes when in Washington DC, where many of the buildings have biblical references hewn into them? Do you avoid the Liberty Bell, with its direct quote from Leviticus?

I don't know of any law that would force you to take an oath of office on a Bible, nor even using the words, "So help me God." Personally, I would rather that you were intellectually honest.

I do not own any real weaponry (I suppose a jackknife, if used properly....), but I would take up arms to defend any person's right to free speech, regardless if I like what he has to say. And, though I believe abortion to be morally reprehensible and, effectively, serial murder on the unborn, the abortionist's life is not mine to take. He may one day take the opportunity to repent (and I'd hate to be in his shoes - or his brain - when he comes to reason for what he's done) and save others - babies, literally, and other abortionists spiritually - through channels that I would not have access to. If I can effect the saving of the babies politically, I will do what I can, but I expect that this country, and humankind, in general, will become more callous, not less, so I don't hold out hope.

Are there varying sects of Atheists? Are some more evangelical - to turn a phrase - than others? Granted, some, like some Christians, hold to a "live and let live" philosophy, but those aren't the ones suing towns to keep the words "Merry Christmas" out of the schools and other facets of public life.

Hmmm... Will there, eventually, be "Christian Pride" parades?

I don't think you'll need to allow your imagination too much latitude. When you consider that the first Christians had to meet in secret and use a symbol to identify themselves, then consider the direction any thread takes when religion is at its core, the story isn't so difficult to create.

I was taught, in my particular faith, that Christians would be 'raptured' and would escape the horrible end of mankind's existence on planet earth. I no longer hold that opinion.

I believe that acceptance of Christianity will lessen to the degree that our lives will be in danger openly. The line of distinction between Christianity and 'religion' is very blurred. Most people do not know that there is such a line. The passage of time will more clearly define that line and the persecution of Christians will increase as 'religion' will become more acceptable.

We are very familiar with the theocratic government of the last days and the "abomination of desolation" of Revelation 13. Religion will soon begin to have greater influence on government. As the two come together, Christianity will suffer greater persecution.

In light of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 (below), describing the world in 2035 should we make it that far, will hold difficult times for the believer. On the other hand, I think of Elijah and the Prophets of Baal (I Kings 18) It will be a glorious revelation of the power and righteousness of God!

Matthew24:
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’b spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: How is a creche "imposing" faith? Would a Menorah be an imposition of faith? How does either impose, when most understand that expression does not equal imposition, but that it is simply because of the season? What is wrong with a little "Peace on Earth and Good Will towards Men?"

Must we mix metaphors? Or confuse concepts? If I object to your desire to force religious displays on others by placing them on taxpayer-owned property, why do you wish to translate that as an objection to offering peace or good will to others? That's a bit of a stretch. You can advocate your version of "peace and good will" on your own property any time you choose. You do not need, nor or you entitled to use, property paid for by the general taxpayers for that purpose.

But the worm turns. Why do you feel the need to use the forum of the town square for your expression of your views? If your desire to express yourself were as innocent as you claim, your local churchyard should not only suffice, but prove an excellent resource.

So yes, a creche in the town square is imposing faith, as would be a Menorah in the same locale. It is an attempt to suggest that the "State" endorses the respective views expressed. And your very need to use that forum to express your views exposes your need for that endorsement.

But I have an "equal time" suggestion -- every year, during Ramadan, a minaret should be erected in the town square, and the entire townsfolk, regardless of their religious leanings, should hear (five times a day) the lyrical call to prayer. Since it is no more than a call to prostrate oneself before one's god, no one should have any objection, right?. For the years when Ramadan overlaps December, you, they, and the Menorah can find a way to share. (Peacefully, of course, and with good will toward men).

We would, of course, need to find a way to work in the Hindus, the Sikhs, (hmmm, peace & goodwill toward men between the latter two may be a challenge), the Ba'hai, the Buddhists, Shintos, and anyone else who is a citizen of this country who wants to have equal access to the same (taxpayer-paid-for) space to express their personal religious beliefs. I'm still working on what to do with the pagans, but they can probably be relegated to an alcove, somewhere on the fringe.

quote Would you want to put a dinosaur (for lack of anything else that I can come up with off the top if my head) on the town green?

No, why should I?

quote Do you avert your eyes when in Washington DC, where many of the buildings have biblical references hewn into them? Do you avoid the Liberty Bell, with its direct quote from Leviticus?

No, but I marvel at the degree to which our ancestors, a mere two to three centuries ago (or less, remember that many of those buildings weren't actually built in 1776) embraced a concept that exists without any objective proof.

quote I don't know of any law that would force you to take an oath of office on a Bible, nor even using the words, "So help me God." Personally, I would rather that you were intellectually honest.

OK, you profess ignorance. Is it for lack of trying, or is it deliberate? And, as for intellectual honesty, . . .

Let's look at a few, shall we?

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#1 Armed Forces of the United States:

Title 10. Armed Forces
Subtitle A. General Military Law
Part II. Personnel
Chapter 31. Enlistments
§ 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer

(a) Enlistment oath.--Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:

“I, _______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

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#2 To be a United States Judge or Justice

Title 28. Judiciary and Judicial Procedure
Part I. Organization of Courts
Chapter 21. General Provisions Applicable to Courts and Judges
§ 453. Oaths of justices and judges

Each justice or judge of the United States shall take the following oath or affirmation before performing the duties of his office: “I, _______ _______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as _______ under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God.”

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#3 US Government Employees

Title 5. Government Organization and Employees
Part III. Employees
Subpart B. Employment and Retention
Chapter 33. Examination, Selection, and Placement
Subchapter II. Oath of Office
§ 3331. Oath of office

An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services, shall take the following oath: “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.” This section does not affect other oaths required by law.

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#4 To be a member of a criminal jury in the State of Texas

Code of Criminal Procedure
Title 1. Code of Criminal Procedure of 1965
Trial and Its Incidents
Chapter Thirty-Five. Formation of the Jury
Art. 35.22. Oath to jury

When the jury has been selected, the following oath shall be administered them by the court or under its direction: “You and each of you do solemnly swear that in the case of the State of Texas against the defendant, you will a true verdict render according to the law and the evidence, so help you God”.

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Do you wish me to continue? I could, ad nauseum. The above were not only not hard to find, they are but dust in the haystacks.

So the question is open. Do you just profess unfounded beliefs and castigate others for daring to challenge them, while accusing those others of "intellectual dishonesty?"

You see, I don't have a problem with intellectual honesty. I'd just prefer that those who accuse me of lacking it, possessed it.

[This message has been edited by Shyster (edited 08-11-2011).]