Cesium levels hit tens of billions of becquerels at river mouth
November 25, 2011
By EISUKE SASAKI/ Staff Writer
Researchers have sounded the alarm over river water containing cesium levels at tens of billions of becquerels a day flowing into the sea near Fukushima Prefecture, site of the crippled nuclear power plant.
A joint study by Kyoto University and the University of Tsukuba, among other entities, estimated that water at the mouth of the Abukumagawa river running through the prefecture was contaminated with cesium levels of about 50 billion becquerels a day.
They called for immediate and continued monitoring of the situation.
The daily radiation levels are equivalent to the total of amount of cesium in low-level contaminated water released into the sea in April by Tokyo Electric Power Co., operator of the stricken Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant.
The Abukumagawa river runs to the north in the prefecture, near Koriyama and Fukushima, the prefectural capital, and flows into the Pacific Ocean at Iwanuma in Miyagi Prefecture.
Its watershed area spans 5,400 square kilometers, including a vast stretch contaminated by the plant.
The researchers estimated the level for cesium-137 at 29.1 billion becquerels a day and that for cesium-134 at 23.4 billion becquerels a day--both at the mouth of the river.
More than 90 percent of the cesium was contained in small particles, including waterborne clay and other fine-grained soil, while the rest had dissolved in the water.
"The study shows a high level (of cesium) is being carried (into the ocean)," said Yosuke Yamashiki, associate professor of environmental engineering at Kyoto University. "The inflow will likely continue for some time. But the content can be reduced."
Yamashiki said that could be accomplished by taking advantage of the fact that cesium tends to accumulate in areas where there is a dam.
The estimated levels near Date, a city situated at the middle reaches of the river, were 92.5 billion becquerels a day for cesium-137 and 83.8 billion becquerels a day for cesium-134.
The researchers explained that cesium levels are lower at the mouth of the river because deposits may have built up around dams along the way.
The research team monitored the volume of flow and cesium levels in the middle reaches and mouth of the river, as well as its tributaries, in June through August.
The monitoring was commissioned by the science ministry.
The researchers said cesium is continuing to contaminate the river water after it fell to the the ground in the watershed area and was carried into the river by rainfall.
More cesium could contaminate the river during decontamination operations and tilling of rice paddies in preparation for transplanting young rice plants, they added. By EISUKE SASAKI/ Staff Writer http://ajw.asahi.com/articl...shima/AJ201111250019
Boss of Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant rushed to hospital (but authorities say it's NOT to do with radiation)
* Masao Yoshida will be replaced from Thursday * Officials refuse to give details of 56-year-old's illness * Has been on site for eight months since disaster * Government watching situation carefully to ensure plans to control plant are not affected
By Simon Tomlinson
Last updated at 3:23 PM on 28th November 2011 Hospitalised: Fukushima nuclear plant director Masao Yoshida has been taken ill. But although he has been on site since the disaster, officials say his condition is not linked to radiation
Hospitalised: Fukushima nuclear plant director Masao Yoshida has been taken ill. But although he has been on site since the disaster, officials say his condition is not linked to radiation
The head of Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant which suffered the world’s worst atomic accident in 25 years earlier this year has been admitted to hospital, it emerged today.
Masao Yoshida, 56, who was in charge when a massive earthquake and tsunami struck on March 11, will be replaced in his post as director from Thursday, plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) confirmed.
An official declined to give details of Mr Yoshida’s illness, but told a news conference there was no indication it was caused by radiation exposure.
Mr Yoshida has been on the site for more than eight months since the disasters knocked out crucial cooling systems, causing reactor meltdowns.
Meanwhile, Chief Cabinet Secretary Osamu Fujimura told media in a separate meeting that the government 'intended to watch the situation carefully' to ensure plans to bring the plant under control were not affected.
Mr Yoshida's sudden illness has come to light just weeks addressing journalists who had been granted access into the plant earlier this month for the first time since the catastrophe.
He said: 'In my first week immediately after the incident, I thought a few times 'I'm going to die."'
Sunday, November 27, 2011 #Radioactive Ocean: NHK Survey Shows 1.74 Microsievert/Hr at Ocean Bottom off Fukushima
(UPDATE) Additional info from the person who watched the program is as follows:
Radioactive silver (Ag-110m) was ND level in the seawater where abalones were found with radioactive silver. So there is no way of telling whether Ag-110m exists in marine life just by analyzing the water.
That was one piece of new information from NHK's ETV (Educational TV) program aired on November 27 at 10PM in Japan, "Mapping the Radiation Contamination - Marine Contamination", 4th in the series.
I'm sure I can still view the video at a third party site, until NHK finds out and takes down the video as it almost always does. While I look for the video, here's what the Japanese viewers are tweeting:
*
NHK's own survey off the coast of Fukushima Prefecture on September 11, 2011. *
Radiation on the ship: 0.14 microsievert/hr, in the water 0.025 microsievert/hour. The number increases as it gets deeper. On the rock [at the bottom of the ocean] 1 microsievert/hour. Maximum number at the bottom of the ocean 1.74 microsievert/hour. Fine-grained sands at the bottom. The radiation level at the bottom of the ocean was max 70 times that of the ocean surface. (from this tweet) *
Bioconcentration of radioactive cesium seen 10 to 20 kilometers off the coast of Fukushima. At the bottom of the ocean, 200 to 300 becquerels/kg [of cesium in the ocean soil]. The radiation level at the bottom 1 microsievert/hour. The area is an abalone fishery. 40 becquerels/kg in the sea water, 420 becquerels/kg in arame (type of seaweed that abalones eat), 2000 becquerels/kg in abalone. 50-fold concentration [from seawater to abalone]. *
Radioactive silver (Ag-110m) in abalone 410 becquerels/kg, in abalone liver 1800 becquerels/kg. (these two points from this tweet) *
Effect of ocean currents is not what you may think. The Kuroshio Current, which comes up from south, may generally prevent the contaminated water from Fukushima from spreading further south. But the coastal current behaves totally different, and radioactive cesium has actually being transported south from Fukushima along the coast. In addition, as rivers reach the Pacific Ocean and discharge water, that creates their own micro-currents. As it turned out, a location off Ibaraki (Kajima) measured lower in radiation of the ocean soil than a location off Chiba (Inubozaki), which is much further south from Fukushima than the Ibaraki location. (from this and this tweets)
Abalone liver is a gourmet food in Japan.
And a Fukushima fisherman, with anger and sadness:
It's all fine idea, this "decontamination". But where will radioactive materials go after they are decontaminated? Into the river and in the end, into the ocean!
High Radiation Levels in Kashiwa Linked to TEPCO N-Plant
Tokyo, Nov. 28 (Jiji Press)--The Ministry of Environment said Monday that high radiation levels detected in soil in Kashiwa, northeast of Tokyo, in October are likely to be from radioactive cesium released from Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s <9501> Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant. Based on local research, the ministry said that high levels of radioactive contamination in the Chiba Prefecture city were unlikely to be caused by soil brought from other regions. The ministry said it believes that the contamination was caused by rainwater containing radioactive cesium released from the northeastern Japan nuclear plant, which was badly damaged by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami. The ministry detected up to some 450,000 becquerels per kilogram of radioactive substances in the soil in Kashiwa, higher than the levels of up to 276,000 becquerels found in the city's research. The science ministry drew a similar conclusion after its research in October.
Temperature has gone “over scale†at reactor 2 Posted by Mochizuki on November 27th, 2011 · 6 Comments
Today Tepco started their press conference 20 mins late, which is unusual.
They did not even prepare documents to explain the current situation of the reactors.
According to their statement, at least 3 troubles are happening.
1) At reactor 3 The water cooling system is not properly working. Water coming into the system and coming out of the system shows similar temperature. They assume it is because a valve was turned off. The last time it was checked was 11/19/2011. They don’t know why the valve got turned off.
2) At reactor 2 Gas pressure controlling room’s temperature has gone over scale. It’s in suppression chamber. Because the temperature has gone too high, heat gauge can not indicate accurately. They say other 2 heat gauges are indicating normal temperature ,but they are about 100m away from the place. Also, because the point is extremely radioactive, nobody can get close to check/replace the heat gauge.
3) At reactor 2 Dry well of container vessel is unusually heated. At 11:00AM 11/27/2011, a heat gauge at the point indicated 85.3 C However, Tepco state there is no problem because other 5 heat gauges around that point show 65~69C, which is usual, so the heat gauge has gone out of order, just at the same timing of (2) The heat gauge is in the highly radioactive place so they can’t go to check or fix anyway.
Considering the unusual atmosphere of Tepco at the press conference, Japanese journalists are suspecting they are hiding something crucial again.
The 2053 nuclear tests and explosions that took place between 1945 and 1998 are plotted visually and audibly on a world map.
As the video starts out detonations are few and far between. The first three detonations represent the Manhattan Project and the two bombs that ended World War II. After a few representative minutes the USSR and Britain enter the nuclear club and the testing really starts to heat up.
Even though the video does not differentiate between sub-critical "safety" tests and full detonations, you get a good idea of the fever of the nuclear arms race.
The time line does not extent to tests by North Korea (October 2006 and May 2009). video credit: goes to Isao Hashimoto (www.ctbto.org/specials/1945-1998-by-isao-hashimoto/)
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01:22 AM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Published: November 29th, 2011 at 12:00 AM EDT | Email Article Email Article By ENENEWS Staff 22 comments Tokyo Prof. on NHK: Breach of containment at Reactor No. 2 “extremely graveâ€, calls for investigation — “Much more prominent†radiation spike after No. 2 trouble, yet Tepco now says NO explosion occurred (VIDEO)
TEPCO says no explosion occurred at No.2 reactor, NHK, November 29, 2011 (Emphasis Added):
[...] NHK has obtained Tokyo Electric Power Company’s interim report on the nuclear accident that was triggered by the earthquake and tsunami on March 11th. [...]
The company concluded in the report that there was no explosion at the No. 2 reactor, and that a blast at the No. 4 reactor was mistakenly believed to have occurred at the No. 2.
Later that day, pressure inside the No. 2 reactor vessel dropped sharply, and radiation levels near the plant’s main gate rose above 10 millisieverts per hour, then the highest level so far.
The interim report fails to specify how the leakage occurred at the containment vessel, just saying that gas in the vessel was somehow released into the air.
Watch video here.
Click to watch video (SOURCE: NHK)
Transcript Excerpts
NHK: “Investigators from TEPCO still can’t determine how radioactive substances were released and why“
NHK: “Workers reportedly heard any explosion near the containment vessel of the No. 2 reactorâ€
NHK: “Researchers believe No. 2 released the most radioactive materials of all reactors at the plantâ€
SOURCE: NHK
Shinichiro Kado, an associate professor at the University of Tokyo (SOURCE: “Expert urges probe of No.2 reactor leakâ€): “The containment vessel is the final fortress for keeping radioactive substances trapped inside the reactor. Its’ a cornerstone of the integrity of a nuclear plant. The breach of the containment vessel itself is extremely grave.â€
NHK adds: “The spike in radiation levels following unspecified trouble at the No.2 reactor on March 15th was much more prominent than on March 12th or 14th, when explosions hit the No.1 and No.3 reactors.â€
h/t TOJ
Was the spike had related to the similarly-timed “blast†at the spent fuel pool at Reactor No. 4? See: Top scientists refute Japan gov't: "Copious quantities" of radioactivity leaked from Spent Fuel Pool No. 4 -- A "significant part" of overall cesium release
The actual NHK article reads a whole lot easier than the ENENEWS re-write of it.
TEPCO says no explosion occurred at No.2 reactor
The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says there was no explosion at the No. 2 reactor, denying an earlier report that there was. But the company says it is still unable to determine how and why radioactive substances were released from the reactor.
NHK has obtained Tokyo Electric Power Company's interim report on the nuclear accident that was triggered by the earthquake and tsunami on March 11th.
The report includes findings from a study that the utility launched in June to analyze how the accident occurred and how workers responded to it.
The report says that almost all electricity sources for the reactors were lost at once following the tsunami.
As a result, multiple safety functions were also lost, causing meltdowns from the No. 1 to the No. 3 reactors.
TEPCO analyzed seismographic data recorded within the plant in the early morning of March 15th, 4 days after the disaster, when a large blast was reportedly heard near the containment vessel of the No. 2 reactor.
The company concluded in the report that there was no explosion at the No. 2 reactor, and that a blast at the No. 4 reactor was mistakenly believed to have occurred at the No. 2.
Later that day, pressure inside the No. 2 reactor vessel dropped sharply, and radiation levels near the plant's main gate rose above 10 millisieverts per hour, then the highest level so far. The interim report fails to specify how the leakage occurred at the containment vessel, just saying that gas in the vessel was somehow released into the air.
Level dangerous; some already sold: Fukushima Cesium find makes Date rice off-limits
By NATSUKO FUKUE Staff writer
The government on Tuesday ordered a ban on the shipment of rice harvested in two more districts in Fukushima Prefecture, after tests detected dangerously high levels of radioactive cesium.
Chief Cabinet Secreatary Osamu Fujimura said the central government has instructed Fukushima Gov. Yuhei Sato to impose the ban on about 1,900 kg harvested in the Oguni district and 1,500 kg in the Tsukidate district, both in the city of Date.
On Monday, the Fukushima Prefectural Government announced that a combined 3,400 kg of unmilled rice harvested by two farms in the Oguni district and by one farm in the Tsukidate district contained between 580 and 1,050 becquerels per kilogram of radioactive cesium. The government's limit is 500 becquerels.
One of the farms in the Oguni district already has sold 9 kg of the tainted rice, the prefectural government said, adding it has yet to establish the identity of the buyer. The remainder of the Oguni rice has not reached the market, it said.
None of the rice harvested by the farm in Tsukidate has been distributed, and all 1,500 kg are currently being stored by the Japan Agricultural Cooperatives.
It is the second ban on rice grown in Fukushima Prefecture in the last two weeks. On Nov. 17, the government banned rice in the Onami district of the city of Fukushima after excessively high levels of cesium were detected.
The prefectural government also decided Tuesday to inspect rice harvested by about 2,300 farms in certain districts of the cities of Nihonmatsu and Motomiya where high radiation levels have been recorded.
Date is located next to the city of Fukushima, and parts of it have been designated as radiation hot spots where the annual exposure could exceed the maximum 20-millisievert limit.
"While we carried out the best inspection process we could think of, we must take the fact (that contaminated rice has been found) seriously," agriculture minister Michihiko Kano said after a Cabinet meeting, hinting it may be necessary to devise new processes for inspecting rice.
The government will do its best to identify the buyer of the contaminated Oguni rice, he said.
The tainted rice was detected in new tests the Fukushima Prefectural Government started conducting on rice harvested by about 1,500 farms in the cities of Fukushima and Date after the central government banned rice from the Onami district.
As of Monday, the tests had confirmed that rice from 10 farms in Onami contained excessive levels of cesium.
In October, Gov. Sato officially announced that test results for rice at 1,174 spots in the prefecture, including Date, confirmed that Fukushima's rice was not contaminated by radioactive materials and was safe to consume.
The initial inspections showed that 82 percent of the rice tested showed no traces of contamination, and the remaining samples contained radioactive cesium below the government-set limit. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20111129x1.html
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01:22 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
In Wake of Fukushima Disaster, Japan's Scientists Ponder How to Regain Public Trust by Dennis Normile on 28 November 2011, 2:27 PM | 2 Comments Email Print | More Previous Article Next Article Enlarge Image Onishi.bmp Communication breakdown. Science Council of Japan President Takashi Onishi wants to provide advice. Credit: Dennis Normile
TOKYO—Public confidence in Japan's scientists and engineers took a major hit from the 11 March earthquake, tsunami, and subsequent Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster. How to regain it was a major theme of a recent symposium held here to explore the role of scientists in the accident, and their responsibilities both before and after.
"Many questions have been raised about the performance of scientists: What could we have done? What could have been done differently?" Hiroyuki Yoshikawa, an engineer and former president of the University of Tokyo, said at the 26 November symposium, which was sponsored by the Science Council of Japan, the nation's leading science and engineering society, and other groups.
The Fukushima accident exposed troubling issues, speakers noted. Despite the resources poured into analyzing crustal movements and having expert committees determine earthquake risk, for instance, researchers never considered the possibility of a magnitude-9 earthquake followed by a massive tsunami. The failure of multiple safety features on nuclear power plants has raised questions about the nation's engineering prowess. Government flip-flopping on acceptable levels of radiation exposure confused the public, and health professionals provided little guidance. Facing a dearth of reliable information on radiation levels, citizens armed themselves with dosimeters, pooled data, and together produced radiological contamination maps far more detailed than anything the government or official scientific sources ever provided.
Such developments suggest scientists and engineers "need to reposition ourselves in relation to the governmental administration and the general public [so that] the scientific community can play a useful role in providing scientific advice," said Science Council President Takashi Onishi, an urban planner at the University of Tokyo.
Several speakers blasted their own fields. "There must have been complacency" about safety among nuclear experts, said Satoru Tanaka, a nuclear engineer at the University of Tokyo and president of the Atomic Energy Society of Japan. He noted that nuclear regulators did not incorporate the latest thinking on nuclear safety and warnings from Japanese seismologists and tsunami experts into evaluations of existing plants. During the crisis, Tanaka said, his society was "not able to fulfill our stated mission" of being the most reliable source of information on nuclear power. The society is studying how to rebuild its credibility while trying to help the government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. wrestle with the thorny issues of disposing of damaged fuel and demolishing the four damaged reactors.
Japan faces hard choices in recovering from the triple disaster, other speakers said. Disposing of the "tens of millions of cubic meters of contaminated soil [would] surpass the total capacity of all disposal sites in Japan," noted Kyoto University civil engineer Minoru Yoneda. Stripping soil and vegetation could increase flooding and landslides. Finding the right balance between decontamination and risk is a gray area. "The question of how much [low dose radiation] is tolerable is open," said radiation health expert Tomoko Kusama, president of Oita University of Nursing and Health Sciences.
Resolving such issues will require reliable scientific advice, but many speakers argued that paths for scientific input into public policy in Japan are underdeveloped. During the crisis, "scientists acted separately and disparately, so accurate information was not being given to policy makers," said Yoshikawa, who called on scientists to develop "a coherent voice."
In the end, although participants appeared to share a general sense that the scientific community needs to regain public trust and take a more active role in proffering advice, they put forward no concrete proposals for reform. Onishi promised a report on how the community and the council should respond by the first anniversary of the 11 March disaster. http://news.sciencemag.org/...ushima-disaster.html
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01:27 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
I think that there has been a massive coverup from the beginning and I don't think they know how to deal with the known problems let alone what might be coming. As I said I'm definitely not a nuclear expert. Time will tell. If there are more coverups they will come out. What I'm saying is that I don't trust the authorities and I'm really glad that I'm a long way away from it.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 11-30-2011).]
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03:47 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Do you really think the reactor is still spewing out vast amounts of radioactive isotopes?
Well, they're definitely leaking something. Plus, there's at least thirty years of cleanup and remediation, so I think that counts as "far from over". Realistically, you will be dead long before the Fukushima nuclear disaster will be fully remediated.
If only it were true that as soon as the reactor cores stopped melting we could call it done and move on. Sadly, that couldn't be further from the truth.
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06:39 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Do you really think the reactor is still spewing out vast amounts of radioactive isotopes?
I'm still thinking they're pumping in thousands of gallons of water every day and that irradiated water is making it's way into the ground-water and the ocean. Yes, they are "cleaning up" some of the water, but I suspect there's more going in than coming out. Like this whole big picture, it's what can't be seen that keeps getting denied. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. So, yes, I think the complex is still releasing radiation.
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08:00 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
A sievert is a measurement of how much radiation your body would absorb if you were standing there. It is not a measurement of the quantity of radioactive isotopes (particles) that are being released into the environment.
So your answer is meaningless in this discussion.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
Last I heard 1.6sv a hour at reactor 3.
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11:25 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
No doubt it is still releasing radioactive particles. But the level is extremely low compared to what it was releasing at the start of this event.
quote
Originally posted by carnut122:
I'm still thinking they're pumping in thousands of gallons of water every day and that irradiated water is making it's way into the ground-water and the ocean. Yes, they are "cleaning up" some of the water, but I suspect there's more going in than coming out. Like this whole big picture, it's what can't be seen that keeps getting denied. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. So, yes, I think the complex is still releasing radiation.
They have said and I don't think it's ever been denied that they are loosing some of the water. Unless you have some link that has them denying it to share.
Not looking to get picky on this or anything but actually it's not that the water is getting irradiated so much, but much more that the water is being contaminated with the radioactive contaminants. The 'good' part of that is the contaminants can be concentrated and removed. That is assuming the water isn't leaked out and into the ground.
The current rate of release clearly doesn't support the statement:
quote
Originally posted by dratts:
This thing is SO far from over. It's going to make Chernobyl look like a hiccup! (just my non scientific opinion)
If you think there has been a massive cover up, please tell us what it is you think they are massively covering up.
quote
Originally posted by dratts:
I think that there has been a massive coverup from the beginning and in don't think they know how to deal with the known problems let alone what might be coming. As I said I'm definitely not a nuclear expert. Time will tell. If there are more coverups they will come out. What I'm saying is that I don't trust the authorities and I'm really glad that I'm a long way away from it.
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11:41 PM
PFF
System Bot
Nov 30th, 2011
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
Those are the impressions I've been left with from the media. I think that I'm a skeptic of the industry particularly in Japan and I think that you are an apologist for the industry. Wait, I take that back. Have you ever apologized?
Those are the impressions I've been left with from the media. I think that I'm a skeptic of the industry particularly in Japan and I think that you are an apologist for the industry. Wait, I take that back. Have you ever apologized?
He's not so much an apologist as he is a minimizer of the downsides. Think of it as being terminally and ignorantly positive and upbeat about the good parts of nuclear fission and deliberately obtuse about the real costs in both money and economic loss after accidents. I don't think as a person he's a bad guy, he seems fairly decent, but his looking the other way at the downsides of the technology is becoming blatantly absurd.
The way I see it, TEPCO needs to pay every single penny of all the costs and losses associated with this disaster, including buying the rice that was declared unsellable the other day. When (not if, but when) TEPCO runs out of money then the rest of the nuclear power industry in Japan needs to be taxed to pay for it. They'll have to raise their rates, of course, but that's ok, because it means that finally someone, somewhere, will be paying the true cost for nuclear fission power. Any money the taxpayers pay directly for this should be recollected from the utilities. Actually, the taxpayers shouldn't be paying a dime in the first place.
IMHO...
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06:58 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
I'm sorry that I have to tell you that I am not an apologist.
quote
Originally posted by dratts:
Those are the impressions I've been left with from the media. I think that I'm a skeptic of the industry particularly in Japan and I think that you are an apologist for the industry. Wait, I take that back. Have you ever apologized?
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-30-2011).]
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07:39 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
Electrical utilities generate and distribute power. They do so usually under a government negotiated rate since they are usually a government appointed monopoly. That rate normally includes a reasonable profit for the utility involved.
I have read your previous posts where you wanted to punish the company, and anyone who happen to own stock in Tepco. You stated you thought they should be made to be exposed to radiation levels that you felt were harmful.
So now that there has been an accident caused by a one in a century tsunami how would you propose the company go forward. Do you think the utility should be forced not to make a profit on future earnings? Would that satisfy your liberal mindset's need to punish people who own and/or run a business?
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
He's not so much an apologist as he is a minimizer of the downsides. Think of it as being terminally and ignorantly positive and upbeat about the good parts of nuclear fission and deliberately obtuse about the real costs in both money and economic loss after accidents. I don't think as a person he's a bad guy, he seems fairly decent, but his looking the other way at the downsides of the technology is becoming blatantly absurd.
The way I see it, TEPCO needs to pay every single penny of all the costs and losses associated with this disaster, including buying the rice that was declared unsellable the other day. When (not if, but when) TEPCO runs out of money then the rest of the nuclear power industry in Japan needs to be taxed to pay for it. They'll have to raise their rates, of course, but that's ok, because it means that finally someone, somewhere, will be paying the true cost for nuclear fission power. Any money the taxpayers pay directly for this should be recollected from the utilities. Actually, the taxpayers shouldn't be paying a dime in the first place.
Electrical utilities generate and distribute power. They do so usually under a government negotiated rate since they are usually a government appointed monopoly. That rate normally includes a reasonable profit for the utility involved.
I have read your previous posts where you wanted to punish the company, and anyone who happen to own stock in Tepco. You stated you thought they should be made to be exposed to radiation levels that you felt were harmful.
So now that there has been an accident caused by a one in a century tsunami how would you propose the company go forward. Do you think the utility should be forced not to make a profit on future earnings? Would that satisfy your liberal mindset's need to punish people who own and/or run a business?
Not about punishment. It's about financial responsibility. TEPCO Needs to be responsible for their engineering mistakes, not the taxpayers. And, dunno about where you live, Bush two deregulated prices here over a decade ago.
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08:50 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
A sievert is a measurement of how much radiation your body would absorb if you were standing there. It is not a measurement of the quantity of radioactive isotopes (particles) that are being released into the environment.
So your answer is meaningless in this discussion.
So you are trying to say there is no direct relation between a measurement of radioactivity and accumulated dosage? Yes, I understand the difference, and yes they go hand in hand. It would be impossible to get a 1.6 Sv/hr does out of something emitting 300 Bq.
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09:04 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Even Tepco admitted melt-out is occurring. Posted by Mochizuki on November 30th, 2011 · No Comments
Tepco has been stating that Fukushima plants are under control and they can achieve cold shutdown by the end of this year.
However, 11/30/2011, Tepco admitted that melt-out is happening at reactor 1 ,2 ,and 3.
In “their worst senarioâ€, at reactor 1 , all the fuel has melted, it broke through the pressure vessel, dropped to the bottom of the container vessel. They assume the melted fuel is sinking to about 65cm depth of the concrete on the bottom of the container vessel.
Please note that there is only 37cm left to the body of the container vessel.
Also, they assume 57% of the fuel in reactor 2 and 63% of the fuel in reactor 3 have already melted out to the container vessel.
They still assert the situation is stable, but they don’t have any basis.
Newly-surfaced Video: “For some time†NRC staff has contemplated that all reactor cores are ‘ex-vessel’ due to time without cooling
BRIEFING ON THE PROGRESS OF THE TASK FORCE REVIEW OF NRC PROCESSES AND REGULATIONS FOLLOWING THE EVENTS IN JAPAN, U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION (NRC), JUNE 15, 2011 at 9:30 A.M.:
Excerpt
Mr. Bill Borchardt, Executive Director for Operations at the NRC: [...]
The government of Japan released its IAEA report on the event. The report indicates that all three reactors, the cores, to some degree, are ex-vessel. The NRC staff has contemplated this scenario for some time, due to the duration of each of the reactors went without core cooling. However, it’s still too early to tell, and we don’t have specific evidence to show the exact condition, and how much of any of the cores went ex-vessel in those three units. [...]
A new report shows the Fukushima disaster is responsible for the world's worst nuclear sea contamination.
During the peak of Chernobyl, the Black Sea was registering 1,000 becquerels per cubic meter of water - at Fukushima's peak, it was 100,000 becquerels.
Scientists first believed the ocean would dilute it, but Al Jazeera has learned that dangerous concentrations of radioactive caesium remain.
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 "Now They Tell Us" Series: TEPCO Admits Reactor 1 Corium May Be 65 Centimeters into the Concrete Pedestal of Containment Vessel
(UPDATE: See TEPCO's drawing of Reactor 1 in my next post.) (UPDATE 2: Government-commissioned research institute says "corium 2 meters into the concrete". See my post.)
There you go! It took TEPCO only 8 and a half months to say what many people have been saying at least for 8 months.
The corium has long escaped the Reactor Pressure Vessel AND the Containment Vessel of Reactor 1 (that much TEPCO has actually admitted, but..), and has eaten into the concrete pedestal to about 65-centimeter deep.
For Reactors 2 and 3, TEPCO thinks (hopes, wishes...) that a good chunk of the corium dropped from the RPV onto the CV. No mention whether the corium there is eating into the concrete or not.
From NHK News (11/30/2011; quick translation, subject to revision):
It has been discovered by TEPCO's analysis that the significant amount of Reactor 1's melted fuel pierced through the steel Reactor Pressure Vessel and dropped onto the Containment Vessel, then melted the concrete at the bottom of the CV. It is estimated that the melted fuel may have eaten into the concrete to maximum 65 centimeters deep.
In Reactors 1 thorugh 3 of Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant, core meltdowns have occurred, and it is considered that part of the melted fuel has dropped from the RPVs to the CVs. However, the details are not yet known even after more than 8 months since the accident started.
Using different methods, TEPCO and various other research institutions have been analyzing the state of the melted fuel based on the reactor temperatures and the amount of water being poured into the reactors, and the results were announced on November 30 at a workshop held by the national government.
TEPCO's result shows that, in the most severe case, all of the fuel would have melted, of which a significant portion pierced through the bottom of the Reactor Pressure Vessel and dropped onto the Containment Vessel.
When the melted fuel drops to the bottom of the Containment Vessel, a core-concrete reaction takes place at a high temperature, melting the concrete. In the worst case, in Reactor 1, the melted fuel could reach 65 centimeters deep into the concrete.
TEPCO also estimates that in the worst cases for Reactors 2 and 3, 57% and 63% of the fuel have melted, respectively, and part of the fuel dropped onto the Containment Vessels.
According to TEPCO, the temperatures of the RPVs and CVs as of November 21 are all below 100 degrees Celsius, the melted fuel is cooled by the water, and the erosion into the concrete has stopped.
In the workshop, the results from other research institutions were announced, and the experts discussed the conditions of the reactors and fuel based on those results. TEPCO and the national government plans to further analyze the result of the study, and determine how to remove the fuel for decommissioning the reactors.
Seiji Abe, technical advisor to the Japan Nuclear Energy Safety Organization (JNES) says about TEPCO's analysis, "I don't think it is wrong, but it is only the first step. You can't get answers from only one analysis. We will need to understand the situation from various analyses."
TEPCO's presentation is posted on their site, but only in Japanese:
Some experts have raised questions about achieving the "cold shutdown," which means bringing the temperature of the pressure vessel containing healthy fuel rods to way below the benchmark 100 Celsius (212 Fahrenheit). They say the fuel is no longer there and measuring the temperature of empty cores is meaningless, while nobody knows where and how hot the melted fuel really is. http://www.wdtn.com/dpps/li...tor-wd11-jgr_4002530 ------------- I believe I stated that the core temp meant nothing, in the past. For the exact same reason, the fuel is not in the core anymore. Not bad for a idiot wacko.
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09:20 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Institute of Applied Energy: Corium Could Be 2 Meters Deep into Concrete
TEPCO's worst-case scenario (here and here) pales in comparison with the analysis by the Institute of Applied Energy, also presented on November 30 at the workshop held by the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
From what Yomiuri Shinbun reported (01:01AM JST 12/1/2011):
The analysis done by the Institute of Applied Energy commissioned by the national government, 85% of fuel dropped to the Containment Vessel in Reactor 1, and 70% of fuel dropped to the Containment Vessels in Reactors 2 and 3. The researchers at the Institute pointed out the possibility of the damage to the stainless-steel shroud that surrounds the fuel core, and of the corium having eaten away the concrete floor of the Containment Vessel up to 2 meters deep. Because of that, they also said it was possible that the RPV got tilted.
Yomiuri doesn't specify which Reactor the Institute of Applied Energy was talking about, but my guess is Reactor 1.
Some nuclear experts have suggested that if the corium had escaped from the RPV it would spread out flat and evenly on the pedestal and be easily cooled by water. Well, even TEPCO admits that may not the case as far as the shape and the location of the corium is concerned (they do say the corium is cooled), and the Institute of Applied Energy says the corium could be 2 meters deep into the concrete.
My totally amateur 2 cents are that the concrete foundation may have cracked in the earthquake, and that it is possible that the crack or cracks are there in the pedestal. So, even if the corium wanted to spread out thin and flat, it would find those cracks and go there. Once the core-concrete reaction starts, it would be a positive feedback loop; the temperature gets higher not just from the contact with the corium but from the core-concrete reaction, the hole in the concrete would get bigger, and more corium would go into the bigger hole.
I'm sorry that I have to tell you that I am not an apologist.
We do agree that there has been a very bad accident though right? Are we just disagreeing about how severe it is and who is responsible or how responsible they are? This thing will play itself out. One of us is going to feel foolish after it's all over.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 11-30-2011).]
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09:40 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
We do agree that there has been a very bad accident though right? Are we just disagreeing about how severe it is and who is responsible or how responsible they are? This thing will play itself out. One of us is going to feel foolish after it's all over.
Don't hold your breath. Phonedawgz words things so that it infers a meaning, but gives a escape route later if he was wrong. Plausible deniability built into every statment he types. Even when it doesn't apply, look up the geiger counter argument. Phonedawgz, proven wrong still won't admit he was wrong. Just counters by calling me a idiot. He will never admit he was wrong, all he will do is try and discredit anyone who disagrees.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 11-30-2011).]
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09:55 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Reactor Core Melted Fully, Japan Says Fuel Breached Vessel Floor, Operator Says, In Its Gravest Fukushima Status Report
By MITSURU OBE And TOM FOWLER
TOKYO—Japan's tsunami-stricken nuclear-power complex came closer to a catastrophic meltdown than previously indicated by its operator—who on Wednesday described how one reactor's molten nuclear core likely burned through its primary containment chamber and then ate as far as three-quarters of the way through the concrete in a secondary vessel.
Enlarge Image JNUKE Close JNUKE Agence France-Presse/Getty Images
Tepco released in March this photo of smoke rising from its reactor No. 1.
The assessment—offered by Japan's government and Tokyo Electric Power Co., the operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex—marked Japan's most sobering reckoning to date of the nuclear disaster sparked by the country's March 11 earthquake and tsunami.
But it came nearly six months after U.S. and international nuclear experts and regulators had reached similar conclusions. That lag echoes international allegations, in the tense weeks following the disaster, that Japan was underplaying the severity of the contamination and was slow to provide information to outside nuclear regulators. Heard on the Street
* Tepco Swings and Misses
For the first time, Tokyo Electric, known as Tepco, said that nuclear-fuel rods in the complex's No. 1 reactor had likely melted completely, burning through their so-called pressure vessel and then boring through concrete at the bottom of a second containment vessel. Tepco estimates the fuel then eroded about 65 centimeters (about two feet) deep into the 2.6-meter (8.5-foot) concrete bottom. The government model estimated the erosion at up to 2 meters. Reactors Monitor
View Interactive
The molten core stopped short of reaching the vessel's steel casing, under which lies an additional 7.6 meters of concrete foundation, Tepco said.
That brought the fuel closer than previously believed to breaching the containment vessel and foundation and continuing to burn through the ground below—a scenario sometimes described as the "China Syndrome," from the fanciful notion, popularized in a U.S. film by the same name, that in a catastrophic meltdown, molten reactor fuel could sink through the earth until it reached China.
The findings are the latest reminder of how much remains unknown about the extent of the mid-March Fukushima Daiichi accident: Workers still can't get close enough to the stricken reactors to make first-hand reckonings. Wednesday's assessment was based on separate analyses by Tepco and the government of the latest radiation and temperature data from around Fukushima Daiichi's reactors. Related Video
* Volunteers Take on Radiation Clean-Up in Japan (10/31/2011)
Tepco said there is no danger of further damage now.
In its last major update on reactor No. 1, in May, Tepco said the reactor's fuel had more than half melted, and some had fallen into the containment vessel.
Around the same time, models run by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission had already pointed to a complete melting and containment breach. "This was not at all unexpected," said Eliot Brenner, a spokesman with the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. "It really does nothing to change our assumptions—because we based our decisions on very pessimistic scenarios."
Officials at the International Atomic Energy Agency have been frustrated by their slow access to information concerning events at Fukushima Daiichi, according to a Vienna-based diplomat familiar with the United Nations nuclear watchdog. An IAEA spokesman declined to comment on Japan's report.
The precise timeline of melting remains unclear, but it likely stopped as Tepco began dousing the complex's overheating reactors with seawater about a day after the quake and tsunami cut power to its cooling pumps. Edwin Lyman, a senior scientist with the Union of Concerned Scientists, says it remains unclear why the fuel rods didn't also breach the containment wall. "Why this didn't happen is still unknown," Mr. Lyman said.
Steven Kraft, a nuclear-industry engineer who participated in a phone briefing with Tepco officials on Wednesday, said that even if the molten fuel, known as corium, did reach and breach the containment vessel's steel lining, it had several meters of steel-reinforced cement to melt through before reaching soil.
As for a so-called China Syndrome, "They were a great distance and a long time away from that scenario," said Mr. Kraft, the senior director of Fukushima response for the Nuclear Energy Institute, the nuclear-power industry's policy arm.
Had the corium eroded enough concrete, ground-water contamination could become an issue, according to an analysis by Argonne National Laboratory, a federally funded research lab outside of Chicago. Argonne said such a failure, while serious, would pose less of a public health risk than airborne releases of radioactive iodine, which can be spread widely by wind.
Tepco said Wednesday the damage in reactors No. 2 and No. 3—the others among Fukushima Daiichi's six reactors that overheated dangerously—was less severe than in No. 1. It said their cores had partially melted, and some fuel had burned through the reactors' surrounding vessels to the concrete base of their containment vessels.
Enlarge Image 1130nuke Close 1130nuke Associated Press/AIR PHOTO SERVICE
A March photo shows the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant
In all three units, the fuel has now cooled to below the critical temperature of 100 degrees Celsius, and thus poses no further threat, officials said. "The fuel is now being kept safely cooled at all three reactors," a government spokesman said at a briefing following the Tepco report.
Officials have said the fuel in all reactors is approaching a state of cold shutdown, by year's end, at which point there would be no nuclear reaction or radiation release. It is then expected to take decades to dismantle and clean the site.
In April, Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency rated the Fukushima Daiichi episode a "major accident," or a Level 7 emergency, the highest level on the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale. It said in June the total radiation release was roughly 1/10th that from the accident in Chernobyl in the former Soviet Union, the only accident that exceeds Fukushima Daiichi in severity.
In a recent safety assessment, Tepco said the biggest risk to the plant remains another large tsunami, which could destroy water-supply lines and prevent further cooling of the reactors. The company stressed, however, that the availability of multiple water-supply sources, including on-site fire trucks, reduces the risks. —Phred Dvorak in Tokyo, David Crawford in Berlin and Deborah Solomon in Washington contributed to this article.
Is it your statement or the statement of the article that melt out IS happening at reactor 1,2 ,and 3?
Who ever wrote that is an idiot.
Who ever reposts it as even potentially true is an idiot.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
Even Tepco admitted melt-out is occurring. Posted by Mochizuki on November 30th, 2011 · No Comments
Tepco has been stating that Fukushima plants are under control and they can achieve cold shutdown by the end of this year.
However, 11/30/2011, Tepco admitted that melt-out is happening at reactor 1 ,2 ,and 3.
In “their worst senarioâ€, at reactor 1 , all the fuel has melted, it broke through the pressure vessel, dropped to the bottom of the container vessel. They assume the melted fuel is sinking to about 65cm depth of the concrete on the bottom of the container vessel.
Please note that there is only 37cm left to the body of the container vessel.
Also, they assume 57% of the fuel in reactor 2 and 63% of the fuel in reactor 3 have already melted out to the container vessel.
They still assert the situation is stable, but they don’t have any basis.
So you are trying to say there is no direct relation between a measurement of radioactivity and accumulated dosage? Yes, I understand the difference, and yes they go hand in hand. It would be impossible to get a 1.6 Sv/hr does out of something emitting 300 Bq.
Wrong
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-01-2011).]
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09:55 AM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
We do agree that there has been a very bad accident though right?
I agree with that. I can't speak for you
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Are we just disagreeing about how severe it is and who is responsible or how responsible they are?
Tepco is 100% responsible for what happened with their power plant. Is anyone trying to argue anything else?
quote
This thing will play itself out. One of us is going to feel foolish after it's all over.
Foolish about what? Foolish about statements that the power plant was going to be incased in concrete just a few days into this? Foolish about not knowing what containment is? Foolish about thinking the toxicity of plutonium is the same as the toxicity of polonium? Foolish about the idea that the melted fuel is somehow becoming critical and then somehow changing and not being critical any more and that miracle is somehow then shooting out a radioactive hot spot that is appearing somewhere in Tokyo but not being measured at Fukushima? Foolish about believing there is a marked increase in birth defects in the Pacific Northwest of the US? Foolish in believing the fuel is still molten in the reactor? Foolish in believing that fuel melted out of the containment vessel and that makes it easier to cool and somehow Tepco is able to just hide it in the basement?
There is a lot of incredibly foolish things that have been floated here.
