You posted it, underlined it and then you commented on it. So are you saying you think unit #3 went supercritical after the earthquake? Do you think fragments of the fuel rods in the reactor's core escaped through containment somehow and landed a mile away? Exactly what is the cart of **** you are trying to sell us?
Or are you just going to say you post any internet crap with no regards to the truth and just expect the readers to ignore your posts?
They really are paying you good aren't they? I mean now you won't accept legit research groups. You were wrong phonedawgz, grow a set and admit it.
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02:46 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
I don't have to play your stupid game. You have zero scientific proof to the contrary, just your mouth which is the voice of a nobody. You are nothing in the industry, just a arm chair troll. You explain why Plutonium with a half life of 14 years was found outside the reactor. If containment had not been breached, how the hell did it get from the inside of the reactor, to a mile away. Yeah, that's right there was a complete breach of containment. Deal with it.
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02:53 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
One year on, Chiba Prefecture faces mountain of problems including incinerator ash Incinerated ash wrapped in tarps fills a parking lot at the Matsudo Clean Center in Chiba Prefecture. (Mainichi) Incinerated ash wrapped in tarps fills a parking lot at the Matsudo Clean Center in Chiba Prefecture. (Mainichi)
CHIBA -- Chiba Prefecture was overwhelmed with a wide variety of misfortunes and problems in the last year.
Fifteen people in the city of Asahi were killed or are still unaccounted for following the huge tsunami triggered by the magnitude 9.0 earthquake, and about 70,000 households along the Tokyo waterfront and Tone River took the brunt of liquefaction.
Then, hot spots or points of relatively intense radiation spewing from the disaster at the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant were found in large numbers in northwestern Chiba Prefecture due to wind and rain shortly after the natural disasters and the nuclear crisis. An exodus of residents ensued, and the prefecture's population suffered its first drop since the end of World War II.
Alarmed by the unexpected drop in the prefecture's population, Gov. Kensaku Morita vows to quickly study measures, including creating a new entity within the prefectural government, to arrest the decline.
Chiba, endowed with a coastline extending some 500 kilometers, has suffered damage from tsunami over the years. But the March 11, 2011 tsunami, its arrival along the Chiba coastline and its stretch were beyond the scope of ordinary residents' imagination. For example, the tsunami reaching Asahi's Iioka district was the third wave and came over two hours after the killer earthquake struck. Some residents were swept up by the tsunami after returning to their neighborhoods.
The Iioka district and other communities along the Kujukuri coast do not have many buildings and higher ground. A prefectural study panel composed of officials and experts proposed raising the levees from the current 4 to 5 meters to 6 to 6.5 meters. Asahi Mayor Tadanao Akechi proposes expanding forest reserves to help curb tsunami's speed and energy.
The Tokyo waterfront also experienced tsunami as high as 1 to 2 meters about three to five hours after the quake. Rafts for seaweed cultivation were washed away and officials could not close floodgates in time, causing some households to be submerged. Some local governments along Tokyo Bay are hurrying to designate buildings that should be fled from in the case of future tsunami.
Chiba's population increase, ranked third in the nation in terms of the number of people and the ratio of increase, has been driven by the prefecture's northwestern region where the Tsukuba Express Line linking Akihabara in Tokyo and Tsukuba in Ibaraki Prefecture has been in operation since 2005. The region has developed into a major bedroom town in the greater metropolitan area.
But nine cities in the region were designated by the central government as areas subject to strict monitoring of radioactive contamination. As some areas logged higher levels of radioactive contamination than other areas amid heightened anxiety among residents, the cesium concentration in incinerated ash at an incineration plant in Kashiwa reached over 70,000 becquerels per kilogram in June last year.
Similar findings were reported in neighboring cities, causing a shortage of storage facilities for incinerated ash and forcing some incineration plants to repeatedly suspend operations. Massive amounts of incinerated ash were sent back to Nagareyama and other Chiba municipal governments from outside the prefecture.
While many cities were reluctant to implement measures against radiation contamination, parents and others rose to the occasion. A group of housewives and other residents in Kashiwa collected over 10,000 signatures and delivered them to Mayor Hiroyasu Akiyama. These cities came under criticism, changed course and started taking measures including decontaminating day-care centers and kindergartens and extending subsidies for the decontamination drive.
While the prefectural government is taking the initiative in trying to resolve the incinerated ash issue, local governments involved are having trouble reconciling with one another, leaving the issue unresolved.
I don't have to play your stupid game. You have zero scientific proof to the contrary, just your mouth which is the voice of a nobody. You are nothing in the industry, just a arm chair troll. You explain why Plutonium with a half life of 14 years was found outside the reactor. If containment had not been breached, how the hell did it get from the inside of the reactor, to a mile away. Yeah, that's right there was a complete breach of containment. Deal with it.
Spent fuel, in the spent fuel pool would of course have plutonium in it. Spent fuel is stored in the spent fuel pool, which is located OUTSIDE of the containment vessel.
Spent fuel, in the spent fuel pool would of course have plutonium in it. Spent fuel is stored in the spent fuel pool, which is located OUTSIDE of the containment vessel.
So as usual, you have no idea what you are talking about.
You really are a shill.
Here is a better view, where you can see the containment vessel is inside drywell. Shill, how many times have I had to post this picture?
You know it was not from the spent fuel pond, Plutonium 241 only has a half life of about 14.4 years, at 14.4 years, half of it has decayed to Americium, if it had been old fuel, they would have detected large amounts of Americium. So once again, you lie.
Now, are you ready to admit you are wrong? Of course not, a fool wouldn't.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-10-2012).]
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03:51 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
You explain why Plutonium with a half life of 14 years was found outside the reactor. If containment had not been breached, how the hell did it get from the inside of the reactor, to a mile away. Yeah, that's right there was a complete breach of containment. Deal with it.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
You know it was not from the spent fuel pond, Plutonium 241 only has a half life of about 14.4 years, at 14.4 years, half of it has decayed to Americium, if it had been old fuel, they would have detected large amounts of Americium.
Sorry wrong again
About 1/3rd of the fuel of a power plant is replaced every 18 months, so at most the newest spent fuel in the spent fuel pool is at most 1.5 years old.
You should really learn about things before you post them.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-10-2012).]
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05:52 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Originally posted by phonedawgz: Sorry wrong again
About 1/3rd of the fuel of a power plant is replaced every 18 months, so at most the newest spent fuel in the spent fuel pool is at most 1.5 years old.
You should really learn about things before you post them.
You really are a moron, if you believe most of the fuel in the spent ponds were only 18 months to 1.5 years old, how many thousands of rods were stored? I also notice, how you didn't admit, you were wrong about the dry well. Oh I get it now, the older fuel rods, decided not to heat up, that is some kind of magic. Only the rods, that would support your mis guided views decided to heat up, the others played nice.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-10-2012).]
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06:41 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
You really are a moron, if you believe most of the fuel in the spent ponds were only 18 months to 1.5 years old, how many thousands of rods were stored?
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:
About 1/3rd of the fuel of a power plant is replaced every 18 months, so at most the newest spent fuel in the spent fuel pool is at most 1.5 years old.
You really have a problem with reading and comprehending.
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06:53 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Well considering one of the false premises of your question is the idea that the plutonium must be from a 'fresh' spent fuel rod.
But given that premise, it would be more likely than a fuel rod travelling through a foot and 1/2 of concrete.
But again the premise of your question is not true..
If the rods were not fresh, then high amounts of americium 241 would have been found also. No evidence that even trace amounts had been found where they found the plutonium. You also have still not admitted to being wrong about the dry well being outside the containment vessel. A real man would.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-11-2012).]
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10:32 PM
Mar 11th, 2012
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
If the rods were not fresh, then high amounts of americium 241 would have been found also. No evidence that even trace amounts had been found where they found the plutonium.
This is not supported by your quoted article. Just one more thing that you are just making up?
The drywell the core remains fell into is not outside of containment. For you to try to continue to argue this is idiotic.
But you will. And you will still try to push your argument that Tepco has somehow deceived everyone since in your mind the drywell is outside containment, however most everyone believes the core remains are in either the reactor vessel or the drywell directly below the reactor.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-11-2012).]
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06:43 AM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
This is not supported by your quoted article. Just one more thing that you are just making up?
The drywell the core remains fell into is not outside of containment. For you to try to continue to argue this is idiotic.
But you will. And you will still try to push your argument that Tepco has somehow deceived everyone since in your mind the drywell is outside containment, however most everyone believes the core remains are in either the reactor vessel or the drywell directly below the reactor.
You are a moron, yes the article supports my theory, and crushes yours. As for containment, I said containment vessel, and so did you the first time you posted the picture. Now be a man and admit you were wrong.
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12:47 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
Thursday, March 8, 2012 Plutonium-241 of Fukushima Origin Found 32 Kilometers from the Plant, Says National Institute of Radiological Sciences After Nearly One Year
The National Institute of Radiological Sciences (NIRS) knew about it since May last year, but decided to keep quiet. Why? It's yet another case of the researchers waiting until their data collection is published in a peer-review scientific magazine (the paper is linked at the bottom of the post).
For the NIRS researchers, their data has just been published in the UK's Scientific Reports (electronic version), reports Kyodo News (3/8/2012):
The National Institute of Radiological Sciences (NIRS, in Chiba City, Chiba) published the result of their measurement of plutonium-241 at three locations in Fukushima Prefecture 20 to 32 kilometers northwest and south of Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant in the electronic version of the UK's science magazine "Scientific Reports" issued on March 8, 2012.
The level [of plutonium-241] will not affect human health. Plutonium-241 has relatively short half life of 14 years compared to other isotopes of plutonium. It decays into americium-241, which is easily absorbed through soil into legumes. The NIRS says "To avoid internal radiation exposure, it is necessary to survey the spread of plutonium-241 inside the 20 kilometer zone around the plant."
[Plutonium-241] was detected from the samples they collected in April and May last year - the dead leaves from the forests in Iitate-mura and Namie-machi, and the soil at J-village, which has been used as the staging area for the work after the Fukushima I Nuke Plant accident. Other isotopes of plutonium, plutonium-239 (half life 24,000 years) and plutonium-240 (half life 6,600 years), were also detected. From the ratio of isotopes, the NIRS researchers concluded that they were from the Fukushima nuclear accident.
The density of plutonium-241 [detected this time] is higher than that being detected in Japan after the atmospheric nuclear tests in the past. However, plutonium-241 has a short half life, and the density is lower than that during the 1960s when the radioactive fallout from the nuclear tests fell on Japan.
Plutonium is a radionuclide that hardly exists in nature. It is created when uranium in the reactor fuel absorbs neutrons.
Hmmm. If you want to avoid internal radiation exposure by ingesting food that may contain americium-241, a decay product of plutonium-241, don't you want to survey the area outside the 20 kilometer zone? After all, outside the 20 kilometer zone, Fukushima farmers will be tilling the land, ready to grow crops of all kinds again this year.
Half life of americium-241 is 432.7 years. As it decays, americium-241 emits alpha and gamma rays.
Asahi Shinbun has the numbers for plutonium-241:
Dead leaves in Namie-machi (26 kilometers NW of the plant): 34.8 becquerels/kg
Dead leaves in Iitate-mura (32 kilometers NW of the plant): 20.2 becquerels/kg
Soil at J-Village (20 kilometer south of the plant: 4.52 becquerels/kg
Farmers in Fukushima, are you still going to grow stuff on your land?
Researchers at the NIRS, did you think of at least informally telling the local authorities or the farmers about your findings? Or did you just sit and wait until your paper was published by a peer-review magazine?
(I know I'm wasting my breath.)
Scientific Reports carries their full paper online.
1. The article states the rods were from the reactor, not the spent fuel pond, it also makes no mention of Americium.
2. The containment vessel is not outside of the drywell.
What the article actual said.
quote
In fact, the explosion was so massive that investigators found fuel rod fragments a mile away, leading to speculation that a supercritical fission event may have also occurred, Alvarez said.
----
What you said
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
If the rods were not fresh, then high amounts of americium 241 would have been found also. No evidence that even trace amounts had been found where they found the plutonium. You also have still not admitted to being wrong about the dry well being outside the containment vessel. A real man would.
And the article actually said nothing about americium 241
So this is it now?
Just lies?
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08:23 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
And the article actually said nothing about americium 241
So this is it now?
Just lies?
I love how you don't post the entire paragraph, you just cut and paste a fraction of it to manipulate, and then you accuse others of lying. Priceless. Its also amazing you just now read the article. Lmao. I never said the article said anything about americium, I said they would have found large amounts of americium, and since nobody has reported finding even trace americium to my knowledge, it can be assumed it hasn't been detected. Which is no where near as far fetched, as your insane Fukushima is under control assumptions.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-11-2012).]
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09:20 PM
Mar 12th, 2012
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
And that is your excuse for making up (lying) about what is in the article?
You have sunk to a new low.
I haven't lied, if you had any reading comprehension you would see that, wait you know I am not. You think people are here are dumb enough to believe your lies, if you repeat them enough.
Repeating a lie, does not make it true. One of these days, maybe you will understand that.
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01:03 PM
PFF
System Bot
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
You made this up. It is based solely on your preconceived ideas.
Thus your assertion that 'no evidence.. ...has been found' is a lie
Where did I say it was stated in the article, oh yeah I didn't. There have been no reports of Americium found, that is a fact. The only liar in this thread, is you.
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07:41 PM
Mar 13th, 2012
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
JUDY WOODRUFF: Next, the enormous challenges of trying to clean up radiation contamination from the nuclear accident in Fukushima, Japan. Sunday marked the first anniversary of the earthquake, tsunami and subsequent meltdowns.
NewsHour science correspondent Miles O'Brien returned to the region for a series of stories. ARTICLE TOOLS Print Email
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Here's his second report.
MILES O'BRIEN: It was a lonely, sad ride home for Kimeo and Yoko Matsuzaki. I joined them as they returned for a quick visit to gather some belongings and check up on the place.
We are in the town of Namie, Japan, five miles from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Radiation contamination here was 35 millisieverts a year. Twenty millisieverts is the allowable limit for radiation workers. And only one millisievert a year is considered acceptable for average citizens.
Nearly a year after they had to hastily abandon it, their home is showing the signs of damage from the earthquake and neglect.
Kimeo is the 30th generation of Matsuzakis to grow rice on this land. A Buddhist statue in his shrine room dates back to the 15th century, 500 years, one family, one place, until now. And seeing it is understanding they will not be coming home.
"I expected a better situation," she told me. "I expected, if we fixed it, we could return and live in it. I thought so when we left, but, looking at this, no way. We were living a happy life. That memory came back to me. Sorry. Thinking that we will retrieve the happy days, I'm so sad. Sorry."
The Matsuzakis' home is too close to the plant and too contaminated to consider a cleanup.
But farther away, where the radiation readings are a little lower, there is a lot of work under way to fight the fallout. Kunihiro Yushida is doing his part to try to make things right, volunteering his time to clean up yards and school playgrounds in the city of Minamisoma, 12 miles north of the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
But as I watched him work, I quickly realized the dimensions of the dilemma. At this home outside the mandatory evacuation zone, he has scraped off the top layer of soil and bagged it all up. But since there is no government-designated dumping ground, he trucked the hot soil bags a few miles away to an apartment building owned by a friend and left them there.
"It's illegal, but I keep them in an empty space," he told me. "When the government sets up interim dumping sites, I will move them there right away."
And back at the home, while the soil may now be safe for kids to play, the driveway is still dangerously contaminated with cesium. The only solution, grind off the top layer of concrete. Kunihiro Yushida believes this neighborhood should be officially evacuated so that residents can be compensated.
"The government is just delaying the inevitable, in my eyes," he said. "Instead, the government should honestly acknowledge that decontamination is unrealistic, apologize and evacuate citizens as soon as possible."
The mayor of Minamisoma, Katsunobu Sakurai, is conflicted on this issue.
Is it possible that this cleanup can't be done?
"It's impossible," he said. "Only a few parts of the area may be decontaminated. It is better than doing nothing, so it should be done anyway."
In the city of Onami, about 40 miles from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, they are embracing that philosophy, putting a lot of time, effort and money to clean up some once-fertile rice farms now heavily contaminated with cesium fallout. Rice grown here has been banned from the market.
Yasuyoshi Onami, also a 30th-generation rice farmer, believes he will be the last.
"I have no choice but to give up farming, given the current situation," he said.
An army of workers is here trying to put the rice growers back in business. They have scraped off the top layer of soil, bagged it and removed it, carefully leveled the fields, and then checked and recorded the radiation readings. But this model project may be fundamentally flawed. The mountains that rim this valley are covered with a contaminated cedar forest.
Worker Yuichi Ito told me what happens after the cleanup.
YUICHI ITO, cleanup worker: A few days later, the radiation -- it's cesium. Cesium -- cesium is very familiar to the soil, so the dust in the soil will fly from the mountain and come here.
MILES O'BRIEN: It comes right back down.
YUICHI ITO: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
MILES O'BRIEN: The cedar forest will remain a persistent source of cesium contamination spread by the pine needles and cones and pollen. Consider the so-called Red Forest near Chernobyl, so named because radiation from the meltdown there in 1986 killed large swathe of trees.
I walked through it with physicist Gennadi Milinevsky of the University of Kiev a year ago, and it remains highly contaminated to this day.
The ground is just hot, isn't it? It is hot.
GENNADI MILINEVSKY, University of Kiev: Yes.
MILES O'BRIEN: So this used to be pine trees as far as you can see.
GENNADI MILINEVSKY: Yes.
MILES O'BRIEN: And the cesium came through here after the explosion. And that's -- and to this day is. . .
GENNADI MILINEVSKY: Yes, still over there.
MILES O'BRIEN: Are there animals that can live here or not?
GENNADI MILINEVSKY: No, no.
MILES O'BRIEN: No animals here?
GENNADI MILINEVSKY: Not really, yes.
TIMOTHY MOUSSEAU, University of South Carolina: All right, shall we get some -- some pine needles?
MILES O'BRIEN: Milinevsky's colleagues, scientists Tim Mousseau and Andres Moller, have studied the impact of Chernobyl on flora and fauna for more than a decade. They're here now in Fukushima gathering samples of various trees and plants.
ANDRES MOLLER, University of Paris-Sud: The greenness of the vegetation tells something about the stages of the plants and the plant community. The more green it is, the more healthy the vegetation is.
TIMOTHY MOUSSEAU: And, of course, you know, the plant community is the foundation, the basis of the -- everything else that goes on in the community. It's what the insects feed on. It's what some of the birds feed on, where they live. And so what happens to the plant community can have a dramatic impact on the rest of the ecosystem.
MILES O'BRIEN: Scientists suggest the Japanese engage in a form of fallout triage.
John Boice is a professor of medicine at Vanderbilt University.
JOHN BOICE, Professor of Medicine, Vanderbilt University: They have developed three zones, though, for the Japanese authorities, zones less than 20 millisieverts, 20 to 50 and 50 above[b]. And the areas that are 50 and above, there will be no repopulation.
In the other areas below 20 millisieverts, you will be allowed to return. The 20 to the 50, that is where they will be working on to see how low they can get the levels, and if they can get below 20 millisieverts.
MILES O'BRIEN: For now, the tidy, tiny, temporary housing for evacuees is looking more and more like a permanent fixture.
People like Katsuhiko Nakagawa, who lost his wife, son and mother in the tsunami, told me, "My village fell apart. We hoped we could do collective relocation, but it's not realistic."
MILES O'BRIEN: There is no way to sweep away the mess or bury the sense of loss here one year after everything seemed to change. It is a long road home, to be sure.
GWEN IFILL: In his next story, Miles examines food safety in Japan after the disaster.
Japanese Nuclear Reactor Future: Another High Tech Sarcophagus? By Sascha Vongehr | March 11th 2012 06:39 AM | Print | E-mail | Track Comments Alpha Meme More Articles
Japanese Nuclear Reactor Future: Another High Tech Sarcophagus? What if Germany would kill Jews like the US kills Black People? Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing? Studies Now Burgeoning Field
All Articles About Sascha
Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)... View Sascha's Profile User pic. Sascha Vongehr Even one year after the disaster at the Daiichi nuclear plant in Fukushima, Japan, it is still unfolding. It was locally surpassing the severity of Chernobyl relatively soon in the first few weeks. Four out of the six facilities were already no more than a pile of radioactive trash just like Chernobyl and it was clear since then that the future will be also similar to that of Chernobyl: A radioactive monument, still for our grand children’s grandchildren to be concerned about.
The Fukushima plant will have to be treated similar to the reactor site in Chernobyl. The blocks may have to be similarly encapsulated to become concrete tombs. However, Chernobyl’s metal and concrete sarcophagus, officially known as “the shelter objectâ€, has shown that concrete entombing is not a long term solution; it leaked after just 20 years. Thus, it may well be that the Japanese will straightaway do what is now undertaken in Chernobyl: A gigantic, 1.4 billion dollar high tech sarcophagus that promises to stay for about 100 years before the next replacement will be necessary.
It is made from metal arches higher than the Statue of Liberty and can slide over the length of three football fields, the largest moveable structure ever. Under such a roof, robotic cranes could dismantle the remains without further distributing highly radioactive dust. Scientific American had a piece about this project, the scale of which is impressive and makes you understand why pro-nuclear energy advocates refuse to count such to the costs of nuclear energy.
The French consortium Novarka is working on “the New Safe Confinementâ€, a steel structure 110 meters high, 164 meters wide, and weighing almost 30 thousand metric tons. From the Scientific American article:
Because the destroyed reactor is still highly radioactive, to protect workers, the arch will not be constructed over the sarcophagus. Rather, it will be assembled nearby from prefabricated segments each about 25 meters high and weighing an average of 300 metric tons. Once complete, hydraulic jacks will then slide the arch approximately 300 meters on Teflon bearings during the course of a week to enclose the sarcophagus. Walls on either side of the structure, making it resemble an aircraft hangar, will help isolate debris.
It should be finished by 2016; the money is not even raised yet.
What is more relevant for our future is perhaps how the media deal with the one year anniversary of the Fukushima disaster. “The media†have been claimed early on to hype the dangers while instead it is now firmly established that the opposite was true yet again. The most severe lesson this time is that the internet, rather than helping to balance corporate media, has shown to be what defenders of newspapers always claimed: Unreliable, undigested misinformation. It was precisely many so called science sites and blogs that let themselves be fed and actively contributed to biased misinformation. Old school journalists were correct in that the main danger from the new media is their naivety about information sources, for example the plain shallowness of the blogging world in making this an “I have a PhD and know how to convert milli-Sievert into micro-Sievert†issue without the background questioning that good journalism is all about. Science blogs are in fact worse than traditional media when it comes to jumping on premature rumors - in fact it is how many a popular science blog stays ahead. If you think that such would be looked down upon especially among scientists - well, think again.
Now one year later, we witness what was expected across all media: The reporting is basically leaving the impression that everything is over and under control, while in fact we are simply accepting a new status quo. Much like with the oceans for example, as Daniel Pauly explains at Mission Blue, each time the baseline drops, we call it the new "normal." Where is the limit; where do we stop readjusting downward?
There is little difference between Chernobyl in 1986, Three Mile Island in 1979, or Fukushima in 2011. We do not learn the lessons, regardless how often it happens. On the contrary, with what happened in the new media, it looks much like we only get more proud of our technology while not actually improving it. We have been very lucky in Three Miles Island and we have been also quite lucky in Fukushima! Yes, we have! Large earthquakes are not bad luck; they do happen with a certain average rate! Next time, we may not be again this lucky.
The science involved is not nuclear physics, but sociology, psychology, and ever repeating history. The next incident will come along, and it will be much the same again, just perhaps much less lucky. Downplaying by politicians and the involved industries will happen. Leaks, whether they are oil ones or radioactive, will be kept secret again, monitors taken off line, the public will be as always only "informed" in order to avoid panic and any appearance of being not in full control. Evacuations and vital help like the distribution of Potassium Iodide for example will likely come too late. A growing minority among the public knows this, they know that they are cheated every time by withholding even lightly bad news that could help them to make informed decisions. Panic should not surprise anybody. It is simply being responsible for your family if you assume the worst. Since scientists are directly involved, the public trust in science drops along with that for politicians.
600 daily doses of potassium iodide and iodate take up almost no space and never go bad. Where are yours? Where is your first aid kit anyway?
Don't let yourself be influenced by others ridiculing you as some right wing survivalist: Potassium iodide belongs into your disaster preparedness kit! Do not hope that in the case of a nuclear disaster your government will be able or even willing to get it to you! If you are anywhere near nuclear facilities, which you do in any industrialized country, you should have potassium iodide in your first aid kit at home! You do not? Get it now!
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2 Posted by Mochizuki on March 26th, 2012 · No Comments
Following up this article..The second endoscope operation is planned for 3/26 and 27
Tepco announced the endoscope (20m long) operation on 3/26/2012.
They found out the water level was only 60cm above from the bottom of container vessel in reactor2. Probably the bottom of container vessel is damaged.
The atmospheric temperature was 44.5~44.9℃, temperature of the water was 48.5~50.0℃. Atmospheric dose was 6.1 Sv/h.
The exposure dose of the workers were 5.29mSv/ man・day.
18 employees from Tepco, 16 employees from Toshiba operated from 9:40~12:30 on 3/26/2012.
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2 2
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2 3
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2 4
Water level was only 60cm from the bottom in reactor2 5
Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has found that the cooling water in one of the damaged reactors at Fukushima is only 60 centimeters deep, far lower than previously thought.
The utility confirmed the water level by inserting an endoscope into the No.2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant on Monday.
TEPCO had thought that the water level was about 3 meters. It has been injecting nearly 9 tons of water per hour into the reactor to cool the melted fuel that has fallen to the bottom of the containment vessel.
But the shallow level indicates that the water continues to leak into the reactor building through the suppression chambers under the vessel.
The utility argues that the fuel is still being cooled, as the water temperature remains at around 48 degrees Celsius.
But the low level suggests that decommissioning the reactor could be much more difficult. The operator may need to repair more parts of the containment vessel so it can be filled with water to block the strong radiation.
The No. 2 reactor's containment vessel is believed to have been damaged on March 15th with the sudden loss of pressure inside the reactor.
Monday's survey was the second look inside the No.2 reactor since January. During the first survey, an endoscope was unable to confirm the water level in the containment vessel. This time, TEPCO used a scope that is 10 meters longer.
This screams of Chernobyl, where they kept spraying water on a reactor that was destroyed, not willing to accept the fact, that most of the fuel was gone. It is also like, adding coolant to your motor every five minutes, not willing to accept your block is cracked.
9 tons of water, every hour and only 60 cm of depth, when you are expecting 9 meters? That isn't a pin hole, and of course the water is cool, the fuel is long gone.
Can't wait to see how you play baghdad bob with this one, phonedawgz. This is damning to your case, as a matter of fact, it destroys your case. They didn't mention finding the fuel either, I wonder why?
Oh,. before you say it is still in the RPV, "The findings also suggest that the nuclear fuel in reactor 2 melted through 12 cm of the vessel's concrete floor, while fuel from reactor 3 burned through 20 cm." http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20111201a1.html
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-26-2012).]
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11:53 AM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
Tepco's simulations predicted the fuel had melted out of the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel.
Apparently you didn't understand that when it was announced months ago?
Did you think that the reactor vessel with it's bottom melted out was going to hold water?
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
This screams of Chernobyl, where they kept spraying water on a reactor that was destroyed, not willing to accept the fact, that most of the fuel was gone. It is also like, adding coolant to your motor every five minutes, not willing to accept your block is cracked.
No
So where do you think the remains of the fuel rods are? Tepco predicted the remains would be in the drywell itself and in the concrete bottom of the drywell. Do you think the remains of the fuel is somehow "gone"?
---- Just so you don't have to bore us with the fuel specifications of both PWR and BWR - Fukushima's reactors were BWRs.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-26-2012).]
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05:15 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Tepco's simulations predicted the fuel had melted out of the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel.
Apparently you didn't understand that when it was announced months ago?
Did you think that the reactor vessel with it's bottom melted out was going to hold water? No
So where do you think the remains of the fuel rods are? Tepco predicted the remains would be in the drywell itself and in the concrete bottom of the drywell. Do you think the remains of the fuel is somehow "gone"?
---- Just so you don't have to bore us with the fuel specifications of both PWR and BWR - Fukushima's reactors were BWRs.
Water was measured in the containment vessel not pressure vessel. The containment vessel is not holding water. That is not old news, now go put on your idiot hat.
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11:03 PM
Mar 27th, 2012
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
Less than 2 foot of water and the fuel rods over 12 feet long are cool? This shows you the level of BS, we are being fed.
So you appear to understand the core material has melted, then collected in the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel, then melted holes in the bottom of the reactor vessel and drained out and collected in the drywell located below it. So do you know what the term 'melted' means?
I will give you a hint.
They are no longer in the shape of 12 foot long rods.
(You really have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, but you just keep on talking)
Man--talk about questions I wished I had never asked,................ this be the 60 pg C&P tinfoil hat daddy of them all---I think I'll just ask Cliff to delete the entire thread......
So you appear to understand the core material has melted, then collected in the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel, then melted holes in the bottom of the reactor vessel and drained out and collected in the drywell located below it. So do you know what the term 'melted' means?
I will give you a hint.
They are no longer in the shape of 12 foot long rods.
(You really have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, but you just keep on talking)
So you now admit, that the fuel rods are in their molten form, which you laughed about earlier, and that the drywell is outside of the containment vessel? It is a miracle!!!!
You must have forgotten your original arguments, so I guess I am not the one who doesn't know, what I am talking about, you can't even remember your own BS.
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12:20 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
So you now admit, that the fuel rods are in their molten form
No, they are not in their molten form. They melted at the beginning of the accident. They are no longer molten
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...which you laughed about earlier,
Again I will ask you not to put your words in my mouth. You have a very low reading comprehension level. I did not laugh about it earlier
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and that the drywell is outside of the containment vessel?
Nope. The drywell that the core remains are in is still inside the containment vessel. It is below (outside of) the reactor pressure vessel. But the drywell is inside of the containment vessel. The reason the drywell is located below the RPV but inside the containment vessel is to hold and retain the core remains if the reactor were to go into a meltdown condition. The bottom of the drywell has a thick concrete floor designed to hold the hot remains. And the reactor design puts it inside containment in an attempt to retain the nuclear fission products, if such a melt down were to occur
The Reactor Pressure Vessel <> the Containment Vessel. The RPV exists inside the containment vessel structure. The drywell directly below the RPV exists inside the containment vessel.
Now I know you have stated before that you think Tepco is somehow lying about the location of the drywell. You know multiple sources have told you that the drywell is inside the containment vessel. But you insist to try to tell people that the drywell is outside of containment. Anyways you are still wrong about this, just like you have been wrong about so many other things.
So rather than to continue to look like an idiot who talks like he knows things but clearly does not have a clue, why don't you do some real research as to this point.
quote
You must have forgotten your original arguments, so I guess I am not the one who doesn't know, what I am talking about, you can't even remember your own BS.
Clearly you have no idea about what you are talking about.
You can't even figure out what happens to a 12 foot vertical fuel rod when it melts.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-27-2012).]
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02:11 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Clearly you have no idea about what you are talking about.
You can't even figure out what happens to a 12 foot vertical fuel rod when it melts.
Wrong on so much, how about you not knowing how a geiger counter works? I don't even know how to explain to you that the drywell is outside the containment vessel, I have posted numerous graphics to illustrate this, and your I don't know the fuel rods are melted is BS. You were smarting off about me calling them a molten blob early in this argument.
All you are trying to do is distort the truth, and seeing as no one is interested at this point, it isn't worth my time to argue with you. You truly are a shill, and I hope that industry paycheck is worth lying to everyone on the forum.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-27-2012).]
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02:59 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
