Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Totally O/T - Archive
  Japan's nuke problems--what's happening?--conflicting reports. (Page 61)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 64 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64 
Previous Page | Next Page
Japan's nuke problems--what's happening?--conflicting reports. by maryjane
Started on: 03-12-2011 09:14 AM
Replies: 2526
Last post by: 8Ball on 10-25-2013 05:04 PM
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

17091 posts
Member since Dec 2009
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

17091 posts
Member since Dec 2009
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
Besides, lets say you are right, the containment vessel is outside the drywell. *For sake of argument, not agreeing.
If the Containment Vessel is the outermost containment excluding the damaged building, and it has a hole large enough to leak most of the 9 tons of water a day. Where exactly is the fuel? In my scenario the situation is not as dire as yours, that makes you a alarmist wacko.
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
re:
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

I don't even know how to explain to you that the drywell is outside the containment vessel, I have posted numerous graphics to illustrate this, and your I don't know the fuel rods are melted is BS. You were smarting off about me calling them a molten blob early in this argument.

All you are trying to do is distort the truth, and seeing as no one is interested at this point, it isn't worth my time to argue with you. You truly are a shill, and I hope that industry paycheck is worth lying to everyone on the forum.


Well here is what I said on 10/20/2011 - https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/083464-36.html

You had said

 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


I am sure they are on target for cold shutdown, thats not hard when most of the rods are in the basement.


And this is what I had said

 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


Ah, wrong again. (and again, and again, and again, and again)

If the fuel rods melted, they are no longer rods. And if the melted fuel is outside of the pressure vessel, that would make it harder to cool.



Clearly someone here is trying to distort the truth. That someone also has a poor memory. And that someone is you dennis_6.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-27-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

re:

Clearly someone here is trying to distort the truth. That someone also has a poor memory. And that someone is you dennis_6.



Do you always side track conversations?
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Besides, lets say you are right, the containment vessel is outside the drywell. *For sake of argument, not agreeing.
If the Containment Vessel is the outermost containment excluding the damaged building, and it has a hole large enough to leak most of the 9 tons of water a day. Where exactly is the fuel? In my scenario the situation is not as dire as yours, that makes you a alarmist wacko.


Per YOUR post

 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

...TEPCO had thought that the water level was about 3 meters. It has been injecting nearly 9 tons of water per hour into the reactor to cool the melted fuel that has fallen to the bottom of the containment vessel.

But the shallow level indicates that the water continues to leak into the reactor building through the suppression chambers under the vessel.


Tepco recirculates and cools the water. They don't just pump water on it and let it run off like a house fire.

The suppression chamber (torus) is supposed to be part of the containment system

Where are the remains of the melted core? In the bottom of the drywell located directly under the reactor pressure vessel. Most likely in a blob that had melted, ran down there and along time ago had reformed into solid corium. That is where Tepco feels it is. And yes on top of the corium is circulating water. 9 ton per hour.


IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

17091 posts
Member since Dec 2009
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


Do you always side track conversations?


If reminding you again and again that the rods melted and are no longer rods, well then yes guess you could say that.

I would call it putting the conversation "back on the tracks" however.

(Worrying about 12 feet of molten metal rods sticking out of the water - Damn dennis_6 you do make me laugh)
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-27-2012 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

17091 posts
Member since Dec 2009
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:



 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:



Why would you post these pictures when the word 'drywell' is not even on them? They surely don't advance your argument.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-27-2012).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-28-2012 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


If reminding you again and again that the rods melted and are no longer rods, well then yes guess you could say that.

I would call it putting the conversation "back on the tracks" however.

(Worrying about 12 feet of molten metal rods sticking out of the water - Damn dennis_6 you do make me laugh)


The point is, they can not be in any state but molten, since water was not covering the rods.

Also the images I posted, back up the image you keep trying to discredit. You can distinctly see the drywell and the containment vessel in them. Drywell = concrete, Containment vessel is steel.
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-28-2012 02:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Also the images I posted, back up the image you keep trying to discredit. You can distinctly see the drywell and the containment vessel in them. Drywell = concrete, Containment vessel is steel.


Still wrong. Why don't you post about things that you at least know something about. Your repeated ignorance of the subject combined with your apparent need to keep on "informing us" really shows that you are quite a fool.

 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


The point is, they can not be in any state but molten, since water was not covering the rods.

They are not molten. They melted when the accident happened a year ago. That was a long time ago. The melted remains are either in the bottom of the Reactor Pressure Vessel or in the drywell directly below.

Dennis_6, it doesn't make any difference if the area that the rods were in a year ago has water over it or not.

That boat left the harbor and is LONG gone.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-28-2012).]

IP: Logged
tbone42
Member
Posts: 8480
From:
Registered: Apr 2010


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 128
Rate this member

Report this Post03-28-2012 03:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Man--talk about questions I wished I had never asked,................ this be the 60 pg C&P tinfoil hat daddy of them all---I think I'll just ask Cliff to delete the entire thread......


In other news--popcorn has been found to be full of all kinds of good things for your body.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301...d-with-antioxidants/

More than some fruits and vegetables--as long as ya don't smear it down with butter and salt.



Ok, so what good is it without salt and butter? *chirp chirp* Thought so!


Ok, this looks kinda dirty if you know what I'm sayin...
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-28-2012 09:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


If reminding you again and again that the rods melted and are no longer rods, well then yes guess you could say that.

I would call it putting the conversation "back on the tracks" however.

(Worrying about 12 feet of molten metal rods sticking out of the water - Damn dennis_6 you do make me laugh)


Most of the 9 tons of water is leaking out of the containment vessel, where the hell do you think it is going, and what do you think caused that hole? Hint: The fuel caused the hole, and the water is taking the path the fuel took. Hopefully that ends in the basement, or even better the drywell.

BTW, I never said the rods did not melt, as I have stated before, you felt the need to correct my terminology, for calling the melted fuel, a "molten blob". I was illustrating that, despite TEPCO's claims of adequate cooling, it is impossible to provide proper cooling to a 12 foot rod with less than two foot of water. This means their simulation is off, because they assumed that 9 meters of water was cooling the fuel since the began salt water injection, when in reality, that was false.

If the fuel does not have proper cooling, it can become molten at any point, if not why are spent fuel rods stored in cooling ponds? What if I were to take a few bundles out and throw them on the ground? You think they would melt? You are assuming the fuel is not molten, and it may well be.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 03-28-2012).]

IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-28-2012 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


Most of the 9 tons of water is leaking out of the containment vessel, where the hell do you think it is going, and what do you think caused that hole?


There is a large leak in the torus. Read your own posts. Remember the torus is part of the containment vessel

What caused the leak in the torus? A hydrogen explosion

 
quote
Hint: The fuel caused the hole, and the water is taking the path the fuel took. Hopefully that ends in the basement, or even better the drywell.


No

 
quote
BTW, I never said the rods did not melt, as I have stated before, you felt the need to correct my terminology, for calling the melted fuel, a "molten blob". I was illustrating that, despite TEPCO's claims of adequate cooling, it is impossible to provide proper cooling to a 12 foot rod with less than two foot of water. This means their simulation is off, because they assumed that 9 meters of water was cooling the fuel since the began salt water injection, when in reality, that was false.


No Tepco did not claim there was adequate cooling during the first days of the accident. That is why the fuel melted. By the time Tepco had started injecting the sea water the fuel had already melted.

 
quote
If the fuel does not have proper cooling, it can become molten at any point,


Incorrect

 
quote
if not why are spent fuel rods stored in cooling ponds?


To dissipate the heat still being produced. But the heat being produced many many magnitudes less than the first days of the accident.

 
quote
What if I were to take a few bundles out and throw them on the ground? You think they would melt?


After a period of time (at least 1 year)the spent fuel rods are removed from the spent fuel pool and stored in dry casts.

 
quote
You are assuming the fuel is not molten, and it may well be.



Again you look like a fool when you talk about things you have no knowledge about

Spent fuel dry cast storage link - http://www.nrc.gov/waste/sp...ry-cask-storage.html
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post03-29-2012 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


Again you look like a fool when you talk about things you have no knowledge about

Spent fuel dry cast storage link - http://www.nrc.gov/waste/sp...ry-cask-storage.html


Your really are a moron and a shill, anyone that has basic google skills, will see you are lying on every single answer. However no one cares anymore, so I don't really care. Enjoy that paycheck shill. There really is a special place in hell for people like you.
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post03-29-2012 04:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Even better is that I got the NRC to put up that web page about dry cask fuel storage just so I could win this argument.

Pretty amazing eh?

---
Oh well - just carry on with your rants of how the 'core rods' are going critical again and again.

Enlighten us

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 03-29-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-07-2012 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Current headlines @ enenews.com if anyone still cares...

Latest Headlines:
02:00 PM EST on April 7th, 2012 | 6 comments
Report from Japan: Fukushima doctors can’t express anxieties about radiation or say things that are against what medical leaders decide to make public (AUDIO)

11:44 AM EST on April 7th, 2012 | 27 comments
Nuclear Expert: Fukushima citizens urged to make reports of deformities or still births — “I don’t believe the Japanese gov’t wants that info out there” (AUDIO)

07:16 AM EST on April 7th, 2012 | 51 comments
USGS issues announcement about polar bears with oozing sores, hair loss in Alaska — Gov’t testing for radiation — 3 of 4 captured yesterday affected — Similar symptoms as recent mystery seal deaths (PHOTO & AUDIO)
enenews_ 2012-04-07 07.43ttt

03:38 AM EST on April 7th, 2012 | 60 comments
MSNBC on Reactor No. 2: It is beyond human capability, “problem gets worse and worse and worse” — The really bad news is this is the good news, as they can’t even determine what is going on at Reactors No. 1 and 3 (VIDEO)

06:25 PM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 82 comments
Former UN adviser: If No. 4 pool collapses I’ve been told “during 50 years continual, you cannot contain” (VIDEO)

04:34 PM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 80 comments
Nuclear Expert: Fukushima spent fuel has 85 times more cesium than released at Chernobyl — “It would destroy the world environment and our civilization… an issue of human survival” -Former UN adviser

02:21 PM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 57 comments
Ambassador Murata writes to UN Secretary General: “It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of Japan and the whole world depends on No. 4 reactor” — Appeals for independent assessment team

12:47 PM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 22 comments
Head Researcher: Boulder, Colorado a “hot spot” for Fukushima fallout — None of their other US or Canadian samples came close to Boulder’s contamination, except Portland which was even higher

11:27 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 79 comments
Former Japan Ambassador Warns Gov’t Committee: “A global catastrophe like we have never before experienced” if No. 4 collapses — Common Spent Fuel Pool with 6,375 fuel rods in jeopardy — “Would affect us all for centuries”

09:06 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 19 comments
Beware ‘Spring Maximum’ for Radioactive Fallout

07:24 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 19 comments
NOAA Scientists: Plumes from Asia contribute up to 20% of surface ozone pollution on US West Coast… closely related to radioactive fallout — Maximum at Los Angeles Basin, southwest
enenews_ 2012-04-06 07.11t

04:46 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 28 comments
CNN: “Sounds unbelieveable, but it’s true” — Japan paying for travelers to visit Fukushima — $63 to share photos on Facebook, $63 to answer 5 questions …More

04:01 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 12 comments
Osaka Mayor: Japan will collapse if reactors are restarted hastily — Asahi: New safety standards for restarts written in just two days

02:38 AM EST on April 6th, 2012 | 18 comments
Tepco gets gov’t warning about radioactive leak from Fukushima Daiichi — “At this time we have reserved the right to not provide an English version due to potential misunderstandings”

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 04-07-2012).]

IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-07-2012 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
How do I get in on some of that sweet $63.00 facebook pics and questions?
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40957
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post04-07-2012 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Current headlines @ enenews.com if anyone still cares...
...


Did you actually go and read any of these things?

Everything I read sounds like a whole bunch of Chicken Littles running around.

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-07-2012 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Did you actually go and read any of these things?

Everything I read sounds like a whole bunch of Chicken Littles running around.


Yes, I read them, no I don't agree with all of them. I just posted headlines, so that anyone who cares, realizes that its not over yet. However it really wasn't chicken little stuff. 290 something bq/kg is not harmful, but certainly high for background radiation. For reference the max amount of cesium allowed in fish is 500 bq/kg. The polar bear bit, was a bit premature, as the cause is not determined as of yet.
The spent fuel pond of reactor 4 is in danger, and yes the worse case scenario there, would release a amount of radiation the world has yet to see. However, I don't believe it would be the end of the world, parts of Japan may be desolate, and I am not sure if I would want to be on the west coast, depending on how concentrated it came over.
I guess the question is did you read the stories? Did you consider any view point outside phonedawgs?

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 04-07-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-07-2012 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

How do I get in on some of that sweet $63.00 facebook pics and questions?


Read the article, go to Fukushima. Post happy pictures.
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-10-2012 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Early returns to Fukushima
02 April 2012

Restrictions in sizeable parts of Fukushima's evacuation area have been relaxed, enabling some residents to visit at will and work towards a permanent return. Two towns have opened, and a third will follow in two weeks' time.

At midnight on 1 April the restrictions on several areas within 20 kilometres of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant were revised. A significant part of these had shown dose rates caused by ambient radioactivity to be below 20 millisieverts per year - the government's benchmark for the return.

Evacuated residents of Kawauchi village and Tamura City previously needed a police permit to visit the homes they were forced to abandon last year during the Fukushima nuclear accident. Now, they may return to homes and businesses without the use of protective equipment. This means that major repairs can be made to homes damaged by the earthquake of 11 March 2011, and businesses that do not draw custom from local people may now go back to work. Farming is allowed again in line with general restrictions on the wider area. In parallel, authorities will be working to restore infrastructure needed for normal life to resume. The only restriction is that people are not yet allowed to stay overnight.

The Japanese government has identified three classes of area: One is that described above, with ambient radiation levels below 20 millisieverts per year in which residents can now move freely but not stay overnight; Another has dose rates between 20 and 50 millisieverts per year which are marked as 'restricted', where residents can briefly enter to conduct specific jobs without being monitored or using protective equipment.



Green: An area to which people may return but not stay overnight
Orange: A 'restricted' area; dose rate of over 20 millisieverts per year
Purple: A 'difficult' area; dose rate of 20-50 millisieverts per year

Parts of Kawauchi and Tamura are in the eastern portion of the evacuation zone, while Minamisoma is in the north and will see its restrictions relaxed later this month

People entering the 'restricted' areas were advised to avoid doing so unnecessarily, to refrain from working outdoors, to use cars rather than to walk for more than a short period and to wash upon re-entering a building. Residents were told not to drink water from rivers, but that water from the tap would present no problem.

The third category of area is known as 'difficult' to return to because of an ambient dose rate of over 50 millisieverts per year, which is not expected to go below 20 millisieverts per year before March 2016 - five years after the accident. Entering these areas is possible for purposes in the public interest, although people doing so should use monitors and protective gear.

Japan's Ministry of Economy Trade and Industry (METI) said that local governments have been strongly demanding early returns to begin the restoration of the infrastructure that will support the return to normality.

Parts of a third city, Minamisoma, will be granted the same status changes on 16 April with much of this change relating to the 'planned evacuation area' to the north east of Fukushima Daiichi.

The Japanese central government aims to decontaminate all areas so that the additional radiation dose for residents from the accident will not exceed 20 millisievert per year. For areas frequented by children the aim is for this to be less than 1 millisievert per year.

Researched and written
by World Nuclear News

http://www.world-nuclear-ne...kushima_0204121.html
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-10-2012 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

17091 posts
Member since Dec 2009
New data on low-dose radiation
21 December 2011

Results from America's Berkeley National Laboratory have cast doubt on the assumption that risk from radiation is always proportional to exposure – a theory that underpins most measures for radiological protection.

Living cells are constantly bombarded by ionizing radiation in various forms and from various sources, all of which have the potential to damage DNA. Unless this damage is corrected by self-repair mechanisms it can result in cell malfunction or the malignancy known as cancer.



These effects have been clearly shown to be statistically likely for high radiation doses, such as those received by Japanese survivors of atomic bombs. What is less well understood and far harder to study are the effects of lower doses of radiation as received from natural sources, medical scans, or to a lesser extent nuclear power operations.

The prevailing method to deal with this area of uncertainty is to extrapolate the observable effects of high doses and assume the same relationship applies to low doses with no observable effect i.e. assume that all levels of exposure come with a commensurate health risk, no matter how small. This approach is used in practice as a basis for the management of occupational and public exposure worldwide.

It is a safe assumption that the amount of DNA damage increases in line with radiation exposure, but Mina Bissell of Berkeley's life sciences division said today: "Our data show that at lower doses of ionizing radiation, DNA repair mechanisms work much better than at higher doses." She added that this "casts doubt on the general assumption that any amount of ionizing radiation is harmful and additive."

The researchers used time-lapse images of cells as they responded to various radiation doses. They were able to see the repair proteins concentrate around parts of DNA that had suffered a double strand break in what are called radiation-induced foci (RIF). Over time the severed ends of DNA strands actually moved within the cell nucleus to gather in larger RIFs known as 'repair centres'.

Sylvain Costes, who led the study, said that multiple repairs could be taking place simultaneously in the repair centres, leading to more errors in the repaired DNA. He said that at low levels of radiation, such as the natural levels humans experienced throughout evolution, it was "unlikely" that any cell would have to repair more than one double strand break at once.

The study was the first to use time-lapse imagery, which helped it record more RIFs as well as the clustering effect, which begins even before RIFs are formed.

Gerry Thomas, professor of molecular pathology at Imperial College London, told World Nuclear News that while the new theory "makes very good sense," she would "urge a little caution as this is an in vitro model, and may not be completely representative of tissue response in vivo."

Nevertheless, said Thomas, "This is very interesting and would probably fit with the findings we have post Chernobyl where most of the exposure to the population was low dose. It may also explain why relatively few patients treated with radiation for cancer go on to get second tumours. In radiotherapy you target the high dose to the tumour, but inevitably the surrounding tissue receives some radiation, but at a much lower dose."

Costes said the team is now planning to conduct the same experiment with healthy donated cells, rather than immortalized laboratory versions, and to see if the results hold for fibroblast cells as well as the epithelial cells already studied. Another area for research is the clustering of double strand breaks: whether there is a transport mechanism, and whether the repair centres pre-exist.

Researched and written
by World Nuclear News

http://www.world-nuclear-ne...diation_2112111.html
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-12-2012 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Turns out my concern of criticality is in good company. This guy far outranks phonedawgz...
 
quote

Part 2 At 9:00 in

REPORTER: As an ex-TEPCO employee who handled the nuclear fuel rods and have worked at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, [Toshio] Kimura is most worried about the recriticality.

KIMURA: The fuel rods are still active and alive. Rather than putting more effort in cooling the fuel rods right now, a contingency plan, in case of a recriticality, must be considered. They should have prepared the plan before they started to work on cooling the fuel rods. I think it’s a matter of urgency.

REPORTER: Kimura thinks that there is still a risk of melted fuel rods to become active. Living far away from Fukushima, he still worries about the fuel rods in the reactors to this day

HOST #1: Here is the reporter Matsuda. Mr Matsuda, Mr Kimura is the actual person who operated the reactor, isn’t he? He gave me a startle when he said that the inside of the reactors are still alive.

REPORTER: It seems that they don’t know exactly what is happening inside the reactors.

Most of his concerns were, an importance of maintaining the non-recriticality state and observation of any recriticality signs.

Tepco explains that they are watching the signs of recriticalilty by observing the change of temperature and pressure levels.

In fact, Mr Kimura called the main office of TEPCO in October and he told them that they should measure, interference evaluation as a guideline, the neutron emission rate near the reactor core.

The govt is aiming to bring the reactor temperature down within this year (2011).

But Mr Kimura said that unless TEPCO measures the neutron emission rate, reassurance offered by the government is nothing but the word [...]

HOST #2: I got goosebumps from the warning he made about the danger of tsunami and nuclear power station. I think he had an extremely accurate foresight and predicted the danger of the accident. I am so shocked.


http://enenews.com/ex-fukus...-must-measure-neutro
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-13-2012 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
22:13 13 April
TEPCO finds 35-ton machine fallen in Fukushima No. 3 spent fuel pool

TOKYO, April 13, Kyodo

The operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant on Friday found that a 35-ton machine had dropped inside the spent fuel pool of the No. 3 unit, possibly because of a hydrogen explosion that occurred in the early stage of plant's nuclear accident last year.

Tokyo Electric Power Co., commonly known as TEPCO, reported the finding after placing a camera inside the water-filled pool the same day to prepare for removing, as part of the decommissioning process, the nuclear fuel stored there.

One photo showed part of the machine, originally located above the pool and used to insert and remove fuel, appeared to have dropped onto the nuclear fuel storage racks.

http://english.kyodonews.jp.../2012/04/152647.html
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-18-2012 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Title: Fukushima: Probability theory is unsafe
Source: The Japan Times Online
Author: Kenichi Ohmae, Nuclear engineer
Date: Apr. 18, 2012
Emphasis Added

[...] As a nuclear core designer and someone who earned a Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in nuclear engineering, I volunteered to look into the situation at Fukushima No. 1 in June of 2011. Mr. Goushi Hosono, minister of nuclear power and environment, personally gave me access to the information and personnel who were directly involved in the containment operations of the postdisaster nuclear plants. After three months of investigation, I analyzed and wrote a long report detailing minute by minute how the nuclear reactors were actually disabled (pr.bbt757.com/eng/)

Here are the highlights of my findings:

1. Three of the six reactors of Fukushima No. 1 had a complete core meltdown a few days after the tsunami hit. The molten fuel penetrated not only through the bottom of the thick pressure vessel, but also poked holes at the bottom of the containment vessel, thus releasing fission materials into the environment. The meltdown itself started at 11p.m. on the day of the tsunami, March 11, 2011.

2. As expected, the meltdown caused the fuel cladding material, zircaloy (zirconium alloy), to react with vapor and to create large quantities of hydrogen and zirconium oxide, which caused the catastrophic hydrogen explosion that blew out three reactor buildings. The hydrogen explosion took place on March 12, 14 and 15. The Japanese Government did not admit to the meltdown until three months later, nor did they admit to the damage to the containment vessels until a half year later. Our government tried to hide this important information for some reason, though judging from the amount of fission material released and from the size of the hydrogen explosion, the meltdown of the entire core was undeniable for anyone who has studied reactor engineering. [...]

Many long-held myths have been broken as a result of the Fukushima No. 1 meltdown.

As the molten fuel made its way through the pressure vessel and the molten “lava” melted the bottom of the containment vessel, it released huge amounts of fission gasses and particles to the air and water.

The assumed role of the containment vessel proved to be faulty against this type of melt through.
[...]

http://enenews.com/china-sy...n-materials-relea sed

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 04-20-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-18-2012 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
Despite phonedawgz nothing having a Phd or ever being at MIT, or even a comparable career, some of you will not doubt side with him over this.
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-18-2012 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
print button email button
Share on twitter Share on google_plusone
Share on hatena | More Sharing ServicesShare

Sunday, April 15, 2012

EDITORIAL
The Titanic and the nuclear fiasco

On the night of April 15, 1912, 100 years ago today, the allegedly unsinkable luxury liner RMS Titanic sank in the North Atlantic after hitting an iceberg. Of the ship's 2,200 passengers, 1,500 lost their lives. Since then the Titanic has become an object lesson, an obsession and the subject of countless books and films.

The theories about why the largest and most expensive ship of its time failed in its promise and dropped to the ocean floor are plentiful and diverse. Investigators, researchers and conspiracy theorists have variously blamed the ship's design, the laxness of the crew, the inferior quality of the ship's rivets and hull steel, the poor design of the watertight compartments, record high tides, ocean mirages and of course, the infamous iceberg. Clearly, though, it was no one single cause, but a "perfect storm" of factors. The disaster would have been mitigated, though, by less arrogance and more precaution.

Presenting technology as completely safe, trustworthy or miraculous may seem to be a thing of the past, but the parallels between the Titanic and Japan's nuclear power industry could not be clearer. Japan's nuclear power plants were, like the Titanic, advertised as marvels of modern science that were completely safe. Certain technologies, whether they promise to float a luxury liner or provide clean energy, can never be made entirely safe.

In both cases, contingencies plans failed: the Titanic carried too few lifeboats; Tokyo Electric Power Co. failed to develop evacuation and backup plans for its Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant. The design, construction, materials and safety checks were all compromised. The main difference is that the catastrophic effects of the Fukushima fiasco are more far-reaching and long lasting. The plant's name has already become synonymous with disaster.

Not long after the Titanic sank, the company that built the ship retrofit its other two sister ships with stronger hulls. Was the company admitting a flaw or just being careful? Or were they being, at last, wise? Given what's at stake, the government, Tepco and the rest of Japan's power companies must act prudently and retrofit the nation's other nuclear power plants with stronger safeguards in the short term and, in the long term, concede that other forms of energy are demonstrably safer.

In an article not long after the Titanic sank, writer Joseph Conrad commented on the tragedy by noting the "chastening influence it should have on the self-confidence of mankind." That lesson should be applied to all "unsinkable" undertakings that might profit a few by imperiling the majority of others.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/ed20120415a1.html

Hmm, doesn't seen that Japan feels like the disaster is over. I am glad we have the Nuclear Industry to clear that up.
IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-19-2012 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
I guess this is another wack job... Seem to be a lot of them in credible positions lately.
Watch on youtube and use the CC button for english subtitles.


NARRATOR: Kimura used to operate the reactors and maintained the fuel rods at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. He confessed that TEPCO has deceived the government, which regulates the nuclear power plants, in a number of ways.

KIMURA: As a part of operational management of the nuclear power plant, we used to rewrite the daily operative reports. We used to access the computer to falsify the data when things weren’t going our way.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 04-19-2012).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-19-2012 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
huh?

 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Despite phonedawgz nothing having a Phd or ever being at MIT, or even a comparable career, some of you will not doubt side with him over this.


IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-19-2012 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

huh?



Maybe, read the article above that statement.
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
As I said before you have a problem with reading and comprehending.

Well.. Also add composing.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-20-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

As I said before you have a problem with reading and comprehending.

Well.. Also add composing.



Funny, you haven't objected to anything in the article yet. Maybe, the kettle should stop calling the pot black?
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Your metaphor does not apply here.

I am not metaphorically "the kettle" calling the pot black. I do not mistakenly misuse words that make my sentences meaningless and then fail to even recognize that fact.

Also for the record - The phrase is usually stated as "the pot calling the kettle black".

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-20-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Your metaphor does not apply here.

I am not metaphorically "the kettle" calling the pot black. I do not mistakenly misuse words that make my sentences meaningless and then fail to even recognize that fact.

Also for the record - The phrase is usually stated as "the pot calling the kettle black".



So I guess your outstanding reading skills, allowed you to catch that the containment vessel was indeed breached, and you have no issues with that?
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 291
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Scroll up to my post of 3/28 where I talked about containment of #3 being breached. We already talked about it. Did you forget about it?

Here it is again
---------
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


Most of the 9 tons of water is leaking out of the containment vessel, where the hell do you think it is going, and what do you think caused that hole?


There is a large leak in the torus. Read your own posts. Remember the torus is part of the containment vessel

What caused the leak in the torus? A hydrogen explosion

 
quote
Hint: The fuel caused the hole, and the water is taking the path the fuel took. Hopefully that ends in the basement, or even better the drywell.


No

 
quote
BTW, I never said the rods did not melt, as I have stated before, you felt the need to correct my terminology, for calling the melted fuel, a "molten blob". I was illustrating that, despite TEPCO's claims of adequate cooling, it is impossible to provide proper cooling to a 12 foot rod with less than two foot of water. This means their simulation is off, because they assumed that 9 meters of water was cooling the fuel since the began salt water injection, when in reality, that was false.


No Tepco did not claim there was adequate cooling during the first days of the accident. That is why the fuel melted. By the time Tepco had started injecting the sea water the fuel had already melted.

 
quote
If the fuel does not have proper cooling, it can become molten at any point,


Incorrect

 
quote
if not why are spent fuel rods stored in cooling ponds?


To dissipate the heat still being produced. But the heat being produced many many magnitudes less than the first days of the accident.

 
quote
What if I were to take a few bundles out and throw them on the ground? You think they would melt?


After a period of time (at least 1 year)the spent fuel rods are removed from the spent fuel pool and stored in dry casts.

 
quote
You are assuming the fuel is not molten, and it may well be.



Again you look like a fool when you talk about things you have no knowledge about

Spent fuel dry cast storage link - http://www.nrc.gov/waste/sp...ry-cask-storage.html

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-20-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
The same false circle logic, according the Phonedawgz, no other source needed. However the few times you post a source, its the beloved Nuclear Industry, not a unbiased source. Fuel in a cask, kept in an arrangement where fission is impossible, is a lot different than molten rods, that TEPCO, doesn't even have a clue, where it is.
 
quote

The 2008 NRC guideline calls for fuels to have spent at least five years in a storage pool before being moved to dry casks.[8] It describes the dry casks used in the US as "designed to resist floods, tornadoes, projectiles, temperature extremes, and other unusual scenarios."[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_cask_storage

Also, if you can remember that far, some of the fuel was not spent fuel. Some of it was fuel from reactors being serviced. I really don't even need to comment on every idiotic point you bring up. You are not arguing with me, you are just busy trying to confuse the facts for others.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 04-20-2012).]

IP: Logged
dennis_6
Member
Posts: 7196
From: between here and there
Registered: Aug 2001


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 115
Rate this member

Report this Post04-20-2012 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

7196 posts
Member since Aug 2001
Fukushima Daiichi: Inside the debacle
April 20, 2012: 5:00 AM ET

6
Email Print

An unprecedented look at the disastrous handling of the accident at TEPCO's nuclear power station explains why Japan still doesn't trust nukes.

By Bill Powell and Hideko Takayama
fukushima_daiichi

Fukushima Daiichi

FORTUNE -- More than a year has passed since a massive earthquake and a series of tsunamis triggered the worst accident at a nuclear power plant since Chernobyl in 1986, but the epic debacle at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station remains front and center in Japan, at the very core of a historic debate over the future of nuclear energy—one that comes down to a fundamental question: Should nuclear power, which prior to the accident last year generated 30% of the electricity for the world's third-largest economy, have any future at all in Japan?

On April 13, the government of Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda tipped its hand. With summer approaching, and with it peak demand for electricity, the Japanese government approved the restart of two nuclear reactors in the small fishing town Oi, in Fukui prefecture on Japan's west coast.

The nine power companies in Japan have the legal authority to fire up the nuclear plants once they have received regulatory approval from Tokyo, in practice. But the Noda administration now must seek the assent of the local and prefectural governments affected by a restart--as it will have to do for each of the other 48 reactors across the country should it seek to bring them back online in order to avoid crippling brown outs this summer.

That assent won't come easily. Public opposition to nuclear power now runs hot in Japan. Far from fading over the last year, opposition seems to have expanded to a solid majority of citizens nationwide, putting both Noda's government and Japan's big business community (which needs the electricity) in a very difficult spot. The reason for that is the debacle of Fukushima Daiichi—the six-reactor power station owned and operated by the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) —and the many questions that still surround the terrifying events that began on March 11, 2011.

For the past year, through interviews with employees of TEPCO (some officially sanctioned by the company, some without its knowledge), government officials and nuclear industry experts in Japan and abroad, we've attempted to answer two of the most fundamental issues at the heart of nuclear debate now roiling Japan: how could the accident at Fukushima Daiichi have happened—and how, in particular, could it have happened in Japan, a country once known, not so long ago, for its sheer management and engineering competence?

The answers are bracing. The epic disaster at Fukushima Daiichi represents failure at almost every level, from how the Japanese government regulates nuclear power, to how TEPCO managed critical details of the crisis under desperate circumstances.

MORE: Utility exec to feds: Save our tax break, or else

As horrific as the natural disasters that occurred on March 11, 2011 were, the Japanese government itself has concluded that the nuclear crisis effectively began more than four decades before that, when one of the world's largest electric generating stations was located at the ocean's edge, in a country in which earthquakes—huge ones— are facts of life, and have been for centuries. This story recounts not only the fearful days that followed the Great Tohoku quake, but what led TEPCO, and Japan, to be in such a position of vulnerability to begin with.

The Darkest Hours

In the wee hours of the morning of March 15, 2011 TEPCO President Masataka Shimizu sat in the back of his company car, threading his way through the deserted streets of Tokyo. It had been three days since a massive earthquake—9.0 on the Richter scale—and a series of tsunamis had utterly devastated northeastern Japan. No natural disaster had ever been greater, but for Shimizu, whose company operated the massive Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, an epic crisis had only begun.
masataka_shimizu

Masataka Shimizu, TEPCO president

He had been summoned to the office of Naoto Kan, then Prime Minister of Japan. Kan was furious: As horrific as the damage from the quake and tsunami was, Japan now faced the prospect of the worst nuclear accident in human history. At TEPCO's Fukushima Daiichi power station, massive hydrogen explosions had already damaged two of the three reactors that had been operating on March 11, releasing dangerous levels of radiation into the atmosphere. (The three other reactors at the power station had offline at the time for routine maintenance.) The nuclear fuel in the three reactors that were operating appeared to be melting down.

The scene at the plant site, about 160 miles northeast of Tokyo, was nothing short of apocalyptic: small fires blazed at the damaged reactors, the smoke mixing with the steam that they were releasing. Radiation levels would eventually spike so high that the plant's emergency off-site center five kilometers away had to be evacuated; astonishingly, the building was not designed to withstand elevated radiation levels, even though its precise purpose was to serve as a backup operations center during a nuclear emergency.

For three agonizing days, conditions at the Fukushima Daiichi site had been steadily deteriorating; and TEPCO, at least in the eyes of senior government officials, had not given any sign of being able to get control of the situation.

To the contrary, former Prime Minister Kan (he resigned in August) tells Fortune that the TEPCO called Tokyo's minister of economy, trade and industry and told him TEPCO wanted to withdraw from the site completely—a staggering admission of defeat that immediately conjured up images of an uncontained nuclear meltdown; a worst case scenario, in other words, of potentially lethal proportions.
Shimizu also called Kan's chief cabinet secretary, insisting: "We cannot hold onto the site!"

At roughly the same time, Goshi Hosono, who would become the Japanese government's point man during the nuclear crisis, called TEPCO's on site plant manager, Masao Yoshida, and asked if he too thought Fukushima Daiichi needed to be abandoned. Yoshida appeared to push back against Shimizu, his boss, saying, "we can still hold on, but we need weapons, like a high-pressure water pump."

MORE: Shale gas is no alternative to renewables

Kan had been increasingly frustrated by the lack of what he felt was reliable information about the state of the nuclear crisis since its onset; he compared it to "playing the telephone game." At 4 a.m., he ordered an aide to call Shimizu back and instruct him to come to his office.

(Shimizu, then 66, was not accustomed to being called on the carpet by government officials. He was a pillar of the conservative Japanese industrial establishment, and a TEPCO lifer. He had also been a member in good standing of the global nuclear power industry; less than a year earlier he had been elected to the board of the World Association of Nuclear Operators, a trade group ostensibly devoted to ensuring the "highest possible standards of safety.")

Kan himself wanted to hear what Shimizu was thinking, but he had already decided, after talking to his nuclear emergency team before the TEPCO president arrived, that "I could not let it [an evacuation] happen. It just wasn't an option."

Turning a Blind Eye




There was no precedent for the magnitude of the quake and tsunami that wreaked havoc at Fukushima Daiichi. But the disaster wasn't unimaginable. In fact, workers periodically discussed among themselves the risks of the facility's location. "I always wondered why you would build a nuclear site this size in an earthquake zone right on the ocean," said one worker, who requested anonymity because TEPCO had not granted him permission to speak to the press. Sitting in a small karaoke bar in the nearby city of Minami-soma, the worker was at the plant on March 11, 2011 and worked almost continuously through the spring, summer and autumn to try to contain the crisis.

TEPCO's senior management and Japan's nuclear regulators wondered about the risks, too, this worker noted. When the licenses for the Fukushima Daiichi generating stations were granted in 1966 and 1972, they called for the plant to be able to withstand a wave cresting at 3.1 meters in height—a figure based on the size of a tsunami in Chile in 1960.

MORE: Asia's 25 hottest people in business

As recently as 2008, according to the Japanese government's interim report into the accident released at the end of last year, TEPCO reevaluated the tsunami risks at the plant. New simulations the company ran showed waves could reach as high as 15 meters—chillingly, almost the exact height of the biggest wave that smashed into the coastline on the afternoon of March 11.

TEPCO didn't believe the simulation was reliable.
masao_yoshida

Masao Yoshida, plant manager

As a Japanese government investigation into the nuclear accident concludes, in understated but withering prose: "TEPCO still did not take concrete measures against the possibility of tsunami," because it didn't trust the new model that had generated that result.

The report is equally critical of the nuclear regulatory agencies in Japan. "The investigation committee is unable to find efforts of the regulatory organizations concerned" to determine whether adequate defenses against possible tsunamis were in place.

Japan would pay dearly for that. Two TEPCO workers, in the process of inspecting unit number four, were killed instantly when the largest of the seven waves struck the plant site. The cooling systems for the reactors that were operating and the plant's spent fuel pools were disabled when backup generators failed.

The ensuing chaos and confusion—at TEPCO headquarters and at the plant site—would lead to a series of early missteps that would eventually cause hydrogen explosions at three of the reactor units, blasts that released damaging levels of radioactive material in the atmosphere and seawater. "I thought we were done," recalls Masao Yoshida, the plant manager. "I thought we would lose control over the reactors completely."

Heads in the sand

Nuclear safety in Japan historically has been predicated on making sure plants could withstand "design basis accidents."

Translation: an accident that the plant has been designed to deal with automatically. What happened a year ago went far beyond that. The industry calls the accident at Fukushima Daiichi a station blackout, or an SBO.

In the United States, in the 1980s and 90s, regulatory authorities and nuclear operators began planning for the possibility of station blackouts, in which a nuclear plant loses all sources of power, just as Fukushima Daiichi did last year. They began installing what Satoshi Sato, a nuclear industry consultant in Tokyo, calls "defense in depth," which means there are both redundant and diverse mechanisms in place intended to cope with accidents, up to and including SBOs.

TEPCO and Japan's nuclear regulators say they did have redundant power sources in place—the on site diesel generators that also eventually failed after the tsunami struck. (Despite sitting within a few hundred yards of the Pacific ocean, the generators were not designed to withstand flooding.)

But Japan never even tried to prepare for station blackouts. Even as the rest of the world moved on, says Sato, the feeling in Tokyo was, "SBOs are not conceivable; don't even think about it."

Critics of the industry in Japan say there is a basic reason for that. Historically, the government and the power companies spent more time and energy trying to convince the public that nuclear energy was safe than it did actually trying to make nuclear energy safe. Says Sato: "we spent ten times more money for PR campaigns than we did for real safety measures. It's a terrible thing."
Naoto Kan

Naoto Kan, former Prime Minister

"A Tough Moment"


When Shimizu walked into Kan's office in the early hours of March 15 of last year, the Prime Minister was surrounded by the key officials from his office and various ministries trying to cope with the ongoing crisis.

Kan told the TEPCO executive that his plan to withdraw from Fukushima Daiichi was unacceptable. "There's no way you can leave the site." Shimizu, according to Kan, didn't protest. "I understand," he replied. TEPCO has denied through its press spokesmen that it ever intended to pull out entirely from the plant and Shimizu has declined to talk to the press. Kan, in his interview with Fortune, was adamant in his language about what Shimizu said he wanted to do: "Tettai," he said in Japanese. Withdraw.

MORE: Will gas crowd out wind and solar?

Kan said he then told the Shimizu that they needed to set up a joint nuclear task force at the company's headquarters, so lines of communication might be improved. Kan wanted to reinforce the message at TEPCO, and so he drove to the headquarters shortly after Shimizu had left.

At around 5:45 that morning, he addressed some 200 TEPCO employees, including Shimizu and the chairman, Tsunehisa Katsumata, and told them that he knew they faced "a tough moment."

In the days that followed the station blackout, many of TEPCO's on site workers went to extraordinary lengths to cope with the chaotic and deteriorating situation. They scrambled to the site's parking lots and scavenged car batteries to try to generate power to open key valves at the reactors.

When the government gave the orders to vent the primary containment vessels of the operating reactors, an important step to diminish the pressure building up inside, workers popped potassium iodide tablets and were told they had only 17 minutes to work, lest they be exposed for too long to radiation levels that were dangerously high.

The man at the center of this, TEPCO's point man during the crisis, was Masao Yoshida, the site manager at Fukushima Daiichi. He had also been frustrated in the firstdays of the crisis by what he felt was bad information Kan and other key people in Tokyo were getting.

Yoshida understood better than anyone involved that getting water onto the reactors and into the spent fuel pools was the most important thing that needed to happen. But at one point, more than a day into crisis and—after a hydrogen explosion had already damaged reactor unit one—the powers that be in Tokyo got sidetracked, at least in Yoshida's view, by a discussion about "re-criticality."

Kan wanted to know whether the exposed core could still create a fissile reaction, complicating the effort to achieve a "cold shut-down" (which to this day remains the ultimate end game at Fukushima Daiichi.) According to the detailed account of an independent investigative commission led by Yoichi Funabashi, one of Japan's most respected journalists, the discussion somehow got tangled up with the question of whether to try to pump seawater into the reactors.

Yoshida, with the situation at the plant deteriorating rapidly, thought this discussion was a complete waste of time. He was thus stunned, according to the Funabashi Commission report, when on a conference call with Shimizu and TEPCO's chief liaison with the government, Ichiro Takekuro, he was told to delay the spraying of seawater onto the exposed reactors.

This, in Yoshida's view, was exactly the wrong thing to do at that moment.

So during the call, Yoshida motioned another employee over and whispered to him that even though he would now order a halt to the seawater injections—so the officials in Tokyo could hear him doing so on the phone—he wanted everyone at the site to understand that they should disregard that order. Seawater needed to be sprayed onto the site—or they were going to be in worse trouble than they were already.

In any chain of command situation anywhere, it was nothing less than insubordination. In a Japanese context, what Yoshida did is practically unthinkable. Hierarchy is everything in Japan. It literally dictates how low you should bow when meeting someone else. (In late November, Yoshida stepped down as site manager, having been hospitalized with an undisclosed illness.)

Yoshida's decision in the face of crisis speaks volumes as to just how desperate the situation was then. "It was exactly the right thing to do," says Sato, the consultant.

Into the Fire



In the first hours and days following the earthquake and tsunami, investigators have found TEPCO personnel made also critical mistakes—a couple of which are still unexplained.

One involved a critical piece of equipment, known as an isolation condenser, which keeps the water level in the reactor constant even if offsite electricity is lost. On the night of March 11, TEPCO operators at the plant site belatedly recognized that the system was not functioning, and then once they did, tried and failed to open up manually a valve that had been closed.

The assumption that the system was working delayed the decision to "vent", or depressurize, the reactor unit, a mistake that, in the eyes of the government's interim report, led to the first huge hydrogen explosion at reactor one the afternoon of March 12.

The independent Funabashi report also questions why it took seven hours from the time Prime Minister Kan approved the plan to vent to the first attempt to execute it. All the while, more hydrogen was leaking into the reactor building.

Conditions inside the plant—and confusion just outside of it— may have precluded swifter action.

Yoshida had ordered his team to make preparations to vent reactors one and two shortly after midnight, and Kan, the Prime Minister, approved the plan at around 1:30am.

But there was no procedure to operate the vent valves without power, so Yoshida's operators had to figure out on the fly how to do so manually—and then take potentially fatal risks to try to make it work.

At the same time, the government wanted to make sure residents who still remained in the area around of the plant were evacuated. It would be several hours before that happened, in part because the residents had no idea in which direction they were to flee.

Shortly after 9 in the morning of March 12, Yoshida dispatched the two teams. Both had volunteered to go into the reactor, knowing that radiation levels were dangerously high. Each headed to different sections to open critical valves.

The first team succeeded and quickly withdrew. But as the second team entered, their "dose rates" — their exposure to radiation—immediately spiked. One of the operators was instantly exposed to 106 millisieverts of radiation, above the 100 "emergency dose limit" mandated by TEPCO.

The team was pulled out immediately, having failed to open the necessary valves to reduce pressure in the reactor. It took until 2:30 that afternoon—almost 24 hours after the earthquake —for venting of reactor one to commence.

Just over an hour later, at 3:36, the massive explosion shook the site.

Over the next three days, two more hydrogen blasts followed, one at reactor three, and one at unit four, which had been offline at the time of the tsunami.

In the desperate days just after the accident, there was no single event or decision that brought the situation back from the brink. Yoshida's decision to ignore the order against spraying seawater was important. The eventual ability of the Japanese military, police and fire department units, using multiple water cannons and fire trucks, to get to the site and douse it with seawater prevented the crisis from becoming even worse.

If there was a making-it-up-as-they-went-along quality to the effort, it's because they were: the defense forces didn't even have a site map for Fukushima Daiichi when its personnel first arrived.

Still, starting from about March 17, Kan told Fortune he felt "we were creating a defense line, we were pushing back against the enemy.'' Radiation levels, while still high, had stopped increasing. Days later some electricity was finally restored to the site.

But it would be a long time before Kan or anyone else felt any sense of relief. On July 19th, TEPCO said it believed it had stabilized the temperature inside the reactors -- an important step toward the goal of "cold shutdown." That was the first day, Kan says, when he could effectively exhale, when he thought "the worst was over."

The Funabashi commission report points out in withering detail that the Japanese government never gave its citizens a realistic sense of just how long it would take to get control of the disabled plant, nor what the ongoing risks were as radiation continued to be emitted from the site. Arguably, it still hasn't.

On December 16, Kan's successor, Yoshihiko Noda, announced that the stricken reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station had reached "a state of cold shutdown." Japan's worst-ever nuclear accident, the Prime Minister said, had finally been brought under control.

The moment was meant to be a calming milestone, psychological balm for a wounded country in the process of trying to heal. The only problem with it, as workers today at the nuclear power plant, will tell you, is this: it wasn't true then, and it's still not true today. "The coolant water is keeping the reactor temperatures at a certain level, but that's not even near the goal [of a cold shut down,]" says an engineer working inside the plant. "The fact is, we still don't know what's going on inside the reactors."


http://tech.fortune.cnn.com...es+%28Top+Stories%29

-------------
Now, who doesn't know what they are talking about?
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 64 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64 


All times are ET (US)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock