At that point, the issue wasn't him selling alcohol. Something took place that caused an escalation, and it is not being shown or is clear what that is. No offense, but your speaking from a point of view with zero training or knowledge on what you do to obtain information. There was no reason for the officers to do what they did unless the suspect reacted violently. Again, you have failed to pin point anything. You keep running possible scenarios of what they "could" have done. Here is the problem. The video is vague, you have no audio, its too fast to see whether or not the officers were assaulted. Also, you were not there, and on top of it all you have no knowledge as to what happened other then a claim and crappy video, you have no training or knowledge of police defensive tactics.
It reminds me of when people say "he had a knife, why didn't the police shoot them in the leg". Because,...you shoot center mass, you don't aim for the legs. There are MANY reasons for this.
A lot can happen in seconds, and this video shows 6 seconds worth of video so fast, you cant tell whats going on. All you can see is there was some physical contact between the cops and him, but its very unclear as to what that contact was. What if he charged a cop with an object? how big was the officer? I'll tell you right now, if a 6 foot 4 man weighing 250 pounds of muscle charged a small officer, female or male, they could shoot them and be justified. Especially considering there are many tool on an officers belt that can be used against them. Many cops have been killed by their own weapon that was taken away because they were over powered.
Concerning the sheriff who said it was within policy after 8 days. If he is saying that, he is probably right. Their not going to risk blow back over one officers actions if he is wrong, that is suicide. especially for the Sheriff's re-election. They would fire him faster then you can blink. regardless of what people think, when an officer screws up, their ass is on the firing line by their own department.
Also, you think the sheriff made this decision based off of what you know? AKA, this crappy video and the two testimonies you have? No, of course not.
He has access to dash cams with audio, ALL cameras at the store with all angles available, and all the eye witness reports at the scene. He has 100 times more information and knowledge into what happened then anyone here including you and the many on the internet. Like it or not, that is fact. Would a Sheriff risk his elected position proctecting a deputy from a bad shooting?.......VERY VERY unlikely.
Also, in cases like this, the state police come in and conduct what is called am "IA" (Internal Investigation). They bring in a third party agency to remove any bias. They have investigators who's sole job is to question the shooting, the officers involved, and to find if there are any issue. during my career, there have been MANY officers fired or jailed from the result of IA's finding criminal conduct. They are not biased in favor of the officer. Right now, there is without question an IA being done by an agency, and if there is misconduct, they will find it and nail him to the cross.
Sorry Madcurl, but you not looking at this very objectively.
Dude, please. There's no freaking weapon for if there was one-surely the officers would've produced that by now. Since when has law enforcement ever held back in defending or vindicating themselves? They are the first to get on TV and lord it over while pleading their case. You too are offering opinions now regarding the size of the officers verse the suspect-really man. So, now "size" now is a factor here? Who is carring the loaded gun-the two officers or the dude with two bags of beer? Like I said before, Turner might-as-well had two bags of bread. The officers still would be forming a blue line of wagons.
Beside, if there's something that is damaging-law enforecment are the first to hunker down and form a circle. You talk on and on about not being trained in defense tactics, yet you gladly over look the fact that Tuner had two bags of beer. If what you call "defending" yourself involves someone with two bags of beer being shot and killed-you're the one that needs more training.
No, I never brought up size in this case, I used it as an example of when someone may be fired on when they don't have a weapon. You really need to work on your reading and comprehension skills. I'm trying to give you some insight to a world you know little about, made even more obvious by your incorrect statements and speculation. Again your arguing off from pure second and third hand knowledge with no real insight to what happened other then a short story, little evidence, and of course your personal bias. Next time I won't even bother trying to give you any perspective, apparently for you, ignorance is bliss.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 07-26-2011).]
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02:13 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
No, I never brought up size in this case, I used it as an example of when someone may be fired on when they don't have a weapon. You really need to work on your reading and comprehension skills. I'm trying to give you some insight to a world you know little about, made even more obvious by your incorrect statements and speculation. Again your arguing off from pure second and third hand knowledge with no real insight to what happened other then a short story, little evidence, and of course your personal bias. Next time I won't even bother trying to give you any perspective, apparently for you, ignorance is bliss.
Once again, you offering "speculation" not "insight.
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:
A lot can happen in seconds, and this video shows 6 seconds worth of video so fast, you cant tell whats going on. All you can see is there was some physical contact between the cops and him, but its very unclear as to what that contact was. Sorry Madcurl, but you not looking at this very objectively.
Dude, that's "speculation." If you wasn't there-that's is speculation-period. No different than what I'm saying here in this thread. The only difference here is that "you" claim to be the person with knowlege and experience. In your eyes everybody else's speculation is deemed bias. Typical LEO reponse. Anybody with any common sense would know that a person with two bags of beer doesn't justify killing a person.
Let me give you an example of were 6-seconds can mean justifity a shooting-listen and learn. Click on the video link and view the 6 or so seconds were the officers made a quick decision. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...07/22/BAAU1KDIUK.DTL
Keep in mind, the suspect threw a knife at one of the officers. The officer returned fire and killed the suspect. No time to react, no time to search for weapons, and now where to duck behind an object. End of story. If you compare Turner's killing to that of the Bart shooting-one would be shaking his head, because the officers who detained Turner had already checked him for weapons, carried on a conversation with him, looked at the contents in the bag, and most importantly had enough time to stand back.
If a person were to take your view point-every time somebody swings, throws something at an officer justifies a shooting, right? Gaga Gabor should've been shot along with the people throwing snow balls at a cop’s car too. Remember the officer drawing his weapon at those throwing snow balls at his precious SUV? After all, a snow ball thrown couldn't hit the officer in his eyes. That's surely a threat!
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 07-26-2011).]
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02:47 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Next time I won't even bother trying to give you any perspective, apparently for you, ignorance is bliss.
No need. We already have enough to see here. Trying to justify the actions of law enforcement is like tying to defend a used car salesman. Yeah, you can't say all of them are bad, but there's enough nonsense to write a book. Enjoy your blissful ignorance.
Dude, that's "speculation." If you wasn't there-that's is speculation-period. No different than what I'm saying here in this thread. The only difference here is that "you" claim to be the person with knowlege and experience. In your eyes everybody else's speculation is deemed bias. Typical LEO reponse. Anybody with any common sense would know that a person with two bags of beer doesn't justify killing a person.
Let me give you an example of were 6-seconds can mean justifity a shooting-listen and learn. Click on the video link and view the 6 or so seconds were the officers made a quick decision. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...07/22/BAAU1KDIUK.DTL
Keep in mind, the suspect threw a knife at one of the officers. The officer returned fire and killed the suspect. No time to react, no time to search for weapons, and now where to duck behind an object. End of story. If you compare Turner's killing to that of the Bart shooting-one would be shaking his head, because the officers who detained Turner had already checked him for weapons, carried on a conversation with him, looked at the contents in the bag, and most importantly had enough time to stand back.
If a person were to take your view point-every time somebody swings, throws something at an officer justifies a shooting, right? Gaga Gabor should've been shot along with the people throwing snow balls at a cop’s car too. Remember the officer drawing his weapon at those throwing snow balls at his precious SUV? After all, a snow ball thrown couldn't hit the officer in his eyes. That's surely a threat!
What I am saying is speculation? Your the one claiming to know what happened and who is at fault. All I did was say there is a lack of information as of yet to know what clearly happened. Also, using an example of when someone may be shot without a "weapon" is not speculation. Its an example as to when this could happen. I never stated this is what happened here.
Perhaps this will help:
Speculation: an act or instance of speculating: as a : assumption of unusual business risk in hopes of obtaining commensurate gain
Who is making assumptions here?........You. I never once assumed either party was at fault.
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03:09 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
You have proved your dislike for LE, so I'm not surprised at your position. I am simply taking a neutral position on the matter until all the data is in.
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03:32 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
You have proved your dislike for LE, so I'm not surprised at your position. I am simply taking a neutral position on the matter until all the data is in.
Turner was killed, right? He didn't kill himself did he?
What are my dislike? I dislike bad used car dealers too, but they've "earned" a bad reputation which is why whenever the words, "Used Car Salesman’s" are uttered-people are already on alert. The same is true for lawyers, politicians, and maybe religion. Get enough people in any occupation or line of work doing something bad and the entire structure is in the toilet. Is your "occupation" any different? I think not.
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08:21 PM
Mar 24th, 2012
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Deputy shoots second suspect in two months For the second time in two months, a Kern County Sheriff's deputy is on paid administrative leave after shooting a suspect.
The deputy, Wesley Kraft, shot Allen Vienneau, 23, following a fight at the Fastrip on Rosedale Highway and Allan Road Saturday night, according to the Sheriff's Department.
Vienneau was treated at Kern Medical Center Sunday and then booked into the Kern County Jail. Kraft suffered minor injuries in the confrontation.
Kraft arrived at the store just before 6:30 p.m. Saturday to check on a suspicious person inside the store, according to a Sheriff's report.
After talking with Vienneau, Kraft discovered the suspect had two warrants out of Mariposa County – one for spousal battery, and the other for making threats. When Kraft tried to arrest him, the Sheriff's Department said, Vienneau resisted.
Kraft tried to subdue Vienneau with pepper spray and his baton, but could not get him under control, according to the department. That's when Vienneau picked up a metal chair and hit the deputy on the arm, according to the report.
The deputy pulled his gun and shot Vienneau in the stomach. After treatment at KMC, Vienneau was booked into the downtown jail on charges of assault on a peace officer and assault with a deadly weapon.
Kraft was treated and released for the injury on his arm and placed on paid administrative leave.
A clerk at the Fastrip said Sunday deputies seized surveillance video from the store Saturday night.
Just two months ago on July 10, Kraft shot and killed former NFL player David Lee Turner, 56, at the Fastrip on Niles Street and Mt. Vernon Avenue in east Bakersfield.
Surveillance video from that incident proved to be little help because a critical five seconds of the video is missing – the moments in which the Sheriff's Department says Turner hit a deputy in the back of the head with a bag full of beer cans and is then shot by Kraft.
The Sheriff's Department said the video camera at the Fastrip is on a motion sensor and those five seconds were not recorded because Turner and the deputies moved out of frame.
That shooting was ruled justified by a shooting review board.
Kraft has been a Kern County Sheriff’s deputy for more than four years.
There's no freaking weapon for if there was one-surely the officers would've produced that by now. Since when has law enforcement ever held back in defending or vindicating themselves? They are the first to get on TV and lord it over while pleading their case. You too are offering opinions now regarding the size of the officers verse the suspect-really man. So, now "size" now is a factor here? Who is carring the loaded gun-the two officers or the dude with two bags of beer? Like I said before, Turner might-as-well had two bags of bread. The officers still would be forming a blue line of wagons.
