http://www.foxnews.com/us/2...atheist-groups-seek/

I don't see why they should have to take it down. Just a small snippet from the article.

quote As he overlooks the solemn site recently, retired Marine Colonel Nick Marano tells us, “This wasn’t intended to be a religious memorial, it was just intended to be able to provide a fitting and a dignified memorial to their fallen comrades and frankly controversy was the very last thing on their minds.” Marano tells me no one would complain if, for example, someone decided to put up a Buddhist shrine, “No one would complain at all, and I bet if we poked around, we’d probably find something like that here…I mean you can see a very side variety of items have been used, everything from a bottle of Jack Daniels to a Purple Heart and everything in between. I think most Americans are very fair-minded and see this memorial, frankly, for what it is,” says the Colonel as he overlooks the site. He continues: “These two memorials have been sitting out here largely unknown outside of a very small group of Marines and family here at Camp Pendleton. The view that you can even see them from is very restricted, certainly you can’t see it from the public freeway or any of the highly trafficked public roads and even aboard Camp Pendleton it’s a very narrow viewing angle that you have of these crosses and this site.”

Thoughts? Opinion?

Today's "political correctness" is strangling America.

We know its a memorial, not a religious depiction. However, "literal" interpretations by our "Athiest" or agnostic friends will not stop saying

"Its religious"

No its a memorial, and while it should remain up, some liberal is going to go break it down at night like they did the other Veterans Memorial (which was also a cross) in California.

As for my opinion "This Country needs an enema. "

I use to think I could describe myself as atheist, but events like this make think otherwise.

The items at the memorial are of great significance because they are meaningful to the people who placed them there, they are not some advertisement or attempt to convert onlookers.

I had thought part of being atheist was recognizing and respecting the fact that this country is strongly religious. Even though Separation of Church and State was written, our money was printed with "In God We Trust." It is a part of our history.

Well, "the Constitutional mandate of separation of church and state" that they claim was violated doesn't exist. There is no such mandate anywhere in the Constitution. Based on that, I'd like to see them lose just because they don't understand the Constitution.

That said, it is clearly a Christian symbol and I can see wanting to change it to a non-religious symbol that would apply to all Marines of all faiths. As long as the memorial and it's purpose is preserved, changing the symbol isn't as big a deal to me. I could even see putting some kind of non-denominational monolith, etc. in place where people could affix items of religious significance related to the person they're paying tribute to.

Honoring tradition is also important, so the decision to move the cross should not be taken lightly.

I think as long as they represent all beliefs and lack of beliefs, the cross can stay. Lumping every lost solder under a Christian symbol is wrong. Weren't some Jewish? Muslim? Atheist? Agnostic? Didn't bother to ever worry about it? Maybe they can add a blank stone for the atheists.

As long as Christian symbols are solely applied to anything government related, it's inappropriate. How about they toss the Star of David up in place of it. It's the same god right? The Crescent Moon? Same god, right? Should be fine, right? And if those that elected to use the Christian cross didn't understand how it could be misinterpreted, then they did a disservice to those that died. A cross on a specific person's memorial is fine.

Their point it correct. It's an assumption that is very likely wrong for some of the solders. The Christian cross shouldn't be the go-to symbol for every single memorial. It only takes a second to realize that.

But I also recognize that it's tradition and unlikely to change any time soon. I am glad people are slowly starting to speak out. Don't assume we are all Christians. Remembrance of those that have died doesn't require a religion statement - it requires that we remember.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

I think they should bow down, kiss whoever's panty wadded ass presents itself, and do whatever it takes to make each and every little whiney ass boy & girl happy.

Some folks just like to make a big splash, they don't care who gets wet.

Just guessing here but, I suspect someone needs to get a life.

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Ron
The key thing is to wake up breathing! All the rest can be fixed. (Except Stupid - You can't fix that)
Always remember these words of wisdom.

"The Lord must truly love fools, for he made them in abundance."

I'm not religious at all. I guess i would call myself an atheist. I am also prior active duty Marine. What these dipsh!ts are doing is assanine! That is a shrine dedicated to fallen marines and fellow service members. It matters not the symbol of the shrine. I think the cross should stay and the subject dropped. It's a Marine thing, leave it to us to decide its place.

SEMPER FI

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2

Let it be...leave it there...

I am man enough to respect my xtian friends...while I may not share the same beliefs, it does no harm seeing a cross (or a star of David for that matter)

Negative...I aint gonna take it from you, and I will defend your right to have it....

Mike

I've said it before, I'll say it again,

a cross does not force any religious belief on anyone else and seeking to remove crosses is an example of America's GROWING intolerance, NOT an example of progressiveness.

That is certainly the safest way to avoid dealing with the subject. Claim it's irrelevant and leave it alone. Very safe. The point is, by putting the cross on it, it does make a religious statement and defines their death in christian terms. There is no way to escape it. The cross is not a generic symbol. The marines are making a christian statement otherwise there would have been no need for it in the first place.

Would I go out of my way to get it removed? No, but part of the heartburn is that Christianity is slowly losing it's preferential treatment in the US. There are MANY non-believers and non-Christians in the US and the assumption that Christian symbols get an automatic pass needs to stop.

For the future, there needs to be more thought put into when a religious symbol is appropriate and stop assuming it always is.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by TK: That is certainly the safest way to avoid dealing with the subject. Claim it's irrelevant and leave it alone. Very safe. The point is, by putting the cross on it, it does make a religious statement and defines their death in christian terms. There is no way to escape it. The cross is not a generic symbol. The marines are making a christian statement otherwise there would have been no need for it in the first place.

When you see crosses on the side of a road, do you think some Christians died there or some people died there?

quote Originally posted by TK: That is certainly the safest way to avoid dealing with the subject. Claim it's irrelevant and leave it alone. Very safe. The point is, by putting the cross on it, it does make a religious statement and defines their death in christian terms. There is no way to escape it. The cross is not a generic symbol. The marines are making a christian statement otherwise there would have been no need for it in the first place.

The issue isn't irrelevance, the issue is tolerance.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: When you see crosses on the side of a road, do you think some Christians died there or some people died there?

I see that someone decided to use a christian symbol to represent the location of the death. Was the person a christian, who knows, I'll certainly bet they weren't Jewish. Again, the point is the Christian Cross needs to stop being used generically. It's not generic. That fact that people misuse it as generic for DEATH is wrong.

quote Originally posted by TK: I see that someone decided to use a christian symbol to represent the location of the death. Was the person a christian, who knows, I'll certainly bet they weren't Jewish. Again, the point is the Christian Cross needs to stop being used generically. It's not generic. That fact that people misuse it as generic for DEATH is wrong.

I do see your point, but what if many people do see it as generic and not specifically Christian? A symbol is whatever value people place into it.

However saying that I just realized I will probably never see a swastika as anything other than a Nazi symbol. I'm not comparing religion to the Nazis in any way, just thinking about the significance of symbols and how their meaning can become fixed over time.

quote Originally posted by Xanth: I do see your point, but what if many people do see it as generic and not specifically Christian? A symbol is whatever value people place into it. However saying that I just realized I will probably never see a swastika as anything other than a Nazi symbol. I'm not comparing religion to the Nazis in any way, just thinking about the significance of symbols and how their meaning can become fixed over time.

Sure, I understand what you are saying but while some symbols (and celebrations) have become generic, that's doesn't mean we should continue and the cross is probably one that shouldn't be generic. Yes, I think there are people that use it generically without any thought but I would expect the people that spend the money on the memorial did. There is clearly a desire by Christians to maintain a Christian connection to anything "USA". They did exactly that with the cross. A

In addition, by arguing that it's generic, Christians are able to keep it in government/public paid buildings. They get what they want while avoiding justification. And you can bet that cross will get used to show a Christian connection in the future. Oh no, it's generic today but tomorrow it will be referenced to show that connection.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

As an Atheist. I wish they would get off it. Who cares about a damn cross? The beauty of Atheism, to me, is not having to worry about crap like this. All this pissing and moaning people do about religion, I like that I don't have to bother.

Does this view make me more or less tolerant?

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I got bronchitis.
Ain't nobody got time for that!

[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: As an Atheist. I wish they would get off it. Who cares about a damn cross? The beauty of Atheism, to me, is not having to worry about crap like this. All this pissing and moaning people do about religion, I like that I don't have to bother. Does this view make me more or less tolerant?

Right, I am pretty indifferent to the presence of a cross. It's tradition. I get that. I am pretty accommodating but some people aren't.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: When you see crosses on the side of a road, do you think some Christians died there or some people died there?

I assume Christians.

I remember a girl being suspended from school because she refused to take off her pentacle. The pentacle was a symbol of her Wiccan faith. Funny, I don't remember anyone being suspended for wearing a crucifix. Would it be ok if someone had a symbol of their faith on their tomb if they were a professed satanist? I bet the religious majority would put a stop to that real quick. The religious fanatics are hypocrites. It's not freedom for all religion, it's freedom for theirs and discrimination for everyone else.

For the record, the crucifix predates Christianity. It's not a "Christian" symbol, but since Christianity has adopted it, no one sees it as anything but. I say people that don't want religion forced down their throat at every turn have a right to say something. It's not like Christians, or Muslims, or Jews, or Pagans, or any other religion don't go around bitching about things they find offensive. They're PERSONAL beliefs, and are not something that should be forced on anyone in any way, period. Your beliefs don't entitle you to anything, especially under law. You have the same entitlements as anyone else, including not feeling harassed by others' beliefs.

Personally I could care less about whether or not someone has a cross somewhere, they probably don't even know it's origins and are just brainwashed into thinking it's a symbol for something it predates. But I'm not in Pendleton and the people who object have a right to just as the people that believe have a right to.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2012).]

Simple solution.

Have the Marine base make the area around the cross a Chapel.

They are allowed to have chapels on the base. Everyone wins, except the Atheists that despite claiming no religion seem to get hard whenever they see a cross.

Atheists are less tolerant than Muslims in my opinion. They argue that they are "Free thinkers", yet a cross must absolutely be a Christian symbol, and any mention of the Ten Commandments destroys their chance to be "free".

The Constitution does not say people cannot have things like a cross on public property, it says that the Government cannot force you to worship that cross.

If you (as a Marine) want a symbol of your own on that hill, then carry it up there, nobody is stopping you, except your own closed mind.

And, before I get attacked, I'm Agnostic.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Simple solution. Have the Marine base make the area around the cross a Chapel. They are allowed to have chapels on the base. Everyone wins, except the Atheists that despite claiming no religion seem to get hard whenever they see a cross. Atheists are less tolerant than Muslims in my opinion. They argue that they are "Free thinkers", yet a cross must absolutely be a Christian symbol, and any mention of the Ten Commandments destroys their chance to be "free". The Constitution does not say people cannot have things like a cross on public property, it says that the Government cannot force you to worship that cross. If you (as a Marine) want a symbol of your own on that hill, then carry it up there, nobody is stopping you, except your own closed mind. And, before I get attacked, I'm Agnostic. Brad

Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder eh?

quote Originally posted by TK: Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder eh?

It's always surprised me that the people that claim to be tolerant historically are the least tolerant. The Atheists claim they don't believe in "anything" (loosely quoted) Yet they seem to believe they are right about religion don't they?

The only difference between most Atheists and Religious extremists is the use of God in their hate speech.

Brad

So, you are asking us non-Christians to be tolerant of you placing your religious symbol wherever you want but you are intolerant of us saying no?

I am an atheist and there are assholes on both sides. I certainly wouldn't have tried to get it removed but I do understand why they are.

Edit: He's not a Christian. I should not have said "you."

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by TK: So, you are asking us non-Christians to be tolerant of you placing your religious symbol wherever you want but you are intolerant of us saying no? I am an atheist and there are assholes on both sides. I certainly wouldn't have tried to get it removed but I do understand why they are.

#1, I am not placing any religious symbols anywhere, lets get that cleared up right now. I stated that I was an Agnostic earlier just to stop that BS.

#2. I'm asking "you non-Christians" to stop being douche bags and respect other people choices. If seeing a cross makes Atheists this angry perhaps they need to re-evaluate their priorities. You claim to not believe in something, stop believing in it already.

As I said earlier, MOST Atheists are worse than Religious Extremists, the only difference is that the Atheists fight because someone says they believe in God, the Extremists fight because people don't believe in their God.

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: When you see crosses on the side of a road, do you think some Christians died there or some people died there?

I just assume people--or maybe even pets.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: #1, I am not placing any religious symbols anywhere, lets get that cleared up right now. I stated that I was an Agnostic earlier just to stop that BS. #2. I'm asking "you non-Christians" to stop being douche bags and respect other people choices. If seeing a cross makes Atheists this angry perhaps they need to re-evaluate their priorities. You claim to not believe in something, stop believing in it already. As I said earlier, MOST Atheists are worse than Religious Extremists, the only difference is that the Atheists kill because someone says they believe in God, the Extremists kill because people don't believe in their God.

Whoa hang on a second here..MOST atheists are worse than religious extremists? That was a damn ignorant thing to say. How many of each do you know to make that comparison?

First off religion is the second leading cause of war, second only to land. Being an atheist is NOT a religion. Last time I checked, there aren't any groups of atheists declaring war or trying to commit genocide. How many suicide bombers or holy wars were started by atheists? I detest the things people do in the name of their "religions" which are even less logical than politics most of the time. The funny thing is the fanatics often "throw stones" at people for doing the same thing that their own history is littered with.

Man usually I agree with at least some of what you say, but that was completely ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: #1, I am not placing any religious symbols anywhere, lets get that cleared up right now. I stated that I was an Agnostic earlier just to stop that BS. #2. I'm asking "you non-Christians" to stop being douche bags and respect other people choices. If seeing a cross makes Atheists this angry perhaps they need to re-evaluate their priorities. You claim to not believe in something, stop believing in it already. As I said earlier, MOST Atheists are worse than Religious Extremists, the only difference is that the Atheists kill because someone says they believe in God, the Extremists kill because people don't believe in their God.

I wasn't really pointing at you personally but stand corrected on your position. Again, I think both extremes suck. As the old joke goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby. As for extreme atheist being worse than extreme religious people ... I am not sure you should be arguing in this thread.

That said, I apologize for misrepresenting your position. You are not the source of the problem.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Last time I checked, there aren't any groups of atheists declaring war or trying to commit genocide. How many suicide bombers or holy wars were started by atheists? I detest the things people do in the name of their "religions" which are even less logical than politics most of the time. The funny thing is the fanatics often "throw stones" at people for doing the same thing that their own history is littered with.

Doug, we've been through this already. Continuing to post it doesn't make it true.

Seeing as this is a Marine shrine, erected by Marines on a Marine base, my personal opinion is anyone who isn't a Marine shouldn't have anything to do with the decision.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: As I said earlier, MOST Atheists are worse than Religious Extremists, the only difference is that the Atheists kill because someone says they believe in God, the Extremists kill because people don't believe in their God.

Where is this happening? Atheists seem to vary in the strength of their beliefs just as much as in any religious group.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Whoa hang on a second here..MOST atheists are worse than religious extremists? That was a damn ignorant thing to say. How many of each do you know to make that comparison? First off religion is the second leading cause of war, second only to land. Being an atheist is NOT a religion. Last time I checked, there aren't any groups of atheists declaring war or trying to commit genocide. How many suicide bombers or holy wars were started by atheists? I detest the things people do in the name of their "religions" which are even less logical than politics most of the time. The funny thing is the fanatics often "throw stones" at people for doing the same thing that their own history is littered with. Man usually I agree with at least some of what you say, but that was completely ridiculous.

How about if I was to compare Atheists to extremists in that they both tend to try and shove their beliefs (or lack of) down everyone else's throats?

When I said "kill" earlier I didn't mean kill in the "make them dead" sense, but failed to make my point clear.

Right now ( in the example shown in post one of this thread) the Atheists are using the courts system to "fight" and remove what they have deemed an offensive symbol from a Military base. If not removed they are going to form a protest which to me is a type of war (I'm even betting there will be violence.) Just because they don't fight in the name of a God doesn't mean Atheists don't fight. THAT would be ignorant thinking.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Just because they don't fight in the name of a God doesn't mean Atheists don't fight.

I think this is true, but like with religion, you won't necessarily notice the ones that don't try to shove it down your throat.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Kill was the wrong word to use. But as long as people agree that there are Atheist extremists just like there are Christian Extremists I'm good. Brad

Thanks for the clarification, I agree there is the same range among atheists.

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by TK: You are not the source of the problem.

The source of the problem is a group of people pushing their beliefs on others. In this case the Atheists.

Brad

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Atheism is not a religion only by the fact they have no deity. In every other way they conduct themselves as a religion, prosthelytizing to convert others to their belief. It is a belief system based on the existance of a divine power. Their chosen divinity just happens to be ∅.

I agree Atheism and Non-religous are not the same. This guy makes some interesting points. That not good enough. How about a court ruling? Honestly if some Marines of other religions want to hike the symbol of their choice up there and plant it in the same area I wouldn't have a problem with it.