quote Originally posted by TK: Doug, we've been through this already. Continuing to post it doesn't make it true.

You are entitled to you opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts. Atheist regimes in the last century killed people by the tens of millions.

If atheists can pin every religious war in history on religion, then they get ownership of all of the mass murders and wars committed by atheists.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: If atheists can pin every religious war in history on religion,

Confusing me here, are you saying the war would happen independent of religious involvement, or something else?

quote Originally posted by TK: As the old joke goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position."

quote Originally posted by Xanth: Confusing me here, are you saying the war would happen independent of religious involvement, or something else?

That is not what the context of that statement nor the rest of that sentence says.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: That is not what the context of that statement nor the rest of that sentence says.

What are you suggesting the alternative is to blaming a religious war on religion? Who are the atheists failing to blame, that they are responsible for all other violence?

quote A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion. “Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said. The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists. Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court’s ruling “a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence.” “Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion,” said Fahling. The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion. Fahling said today’s ruling was “further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.” “It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts’ is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited,” Fahling said.

I think I agree with a lot of what is being said here, but I am not properly conveying my own thoughts, or interpreting the thoughts of others.

I do like the discussion and am sincerely interested in what people have to say, I want to make sure I am understanding it.

Where are the atheist protest for this:



The largest feature, by far, on the California seal is the Roman godess Minerva.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Where are the atheist protest for this: The largest feature, by far, on the California seal is the Roman godess Minerva.

As was said earlier. The problem is CHRISTIANS. Atheists seem to be anti-Christian, not really anti-any other Religion.

Brad

quote Originally posted by Xanth: What are you suggesting the alternative is to blaming a religious war on religion? Who are the atheists failing to blame, that they are responsible for all other violence?

I was responding to a common atheist argument where they attribute all crimes and wars committed in the name of a religion on all religions. They put all religions in one big group, generalize them and dismiss them as all being the same and equally responsible for such crimes and wars.

I do not believe that, nor do I make that kind of generalization. But if atheists are going to do that, then to be consistent atheists get to be grouped with the monsters of the last century that were also atheists such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I was responding to a common atheist argument where they attribute all crimes and wars committed in the name of a religion on all religions. They put all religions in one big group, generalize them and dismiss them as all being the same and equally responsible for such crimes and wars. I do not believe that, nor do I make that kind of generalization. But if atheists are going to do that, then to be consistent atheists get to be grouped with the monsters of the last century that were also atheists such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

Thank you.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I was responding to a common atheist argument where they attribute all crimes and wars committed in the name of a religion on all religions. They put all religions in one big group, generalize them and dismiss them as all being the same and equally responsible for such crimes and wars. I do not believe that, nor do I make that kind of generalization. But if atheists are going to do that, then to be consistent atheists get to be grouped with the monsters of the last century that were also atheists such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

You forgot Hitler who was shown in your clever little post earlier. Too bad Hitler claimed to be a Christian. Where were the tens of millions of people killed by atheists (for atheist reasons, not just because they were insane)? What wars, what continents, what years? If you want evidence of religion being used as an excuse to kill people, the history books are literally filled with them.

A religion is an organized belief system that people belong to. Most atheists aren't going to an atheist church or practicing under an atheist dogma. How are people here getting off by claiming that atheists are doing anything in coordination with each other?

I don't go to people's houses and try to get them to abandon their faith in favor of any other belief (or a lack of belief). I don't go to another country looking to do "missionary" work and try to relieve people of their traditions. I don't enslave other cultures and then try to strip them of their identity and religion in favor of not having a religion. I haven't tried to kill an entire people just because their image of "god" looks different than my image of "god". I don't go out and specifically look to fight with people just based on their beliefs. You know why?

Because I don't care if someone believes in a God, or Bigfoot, or Santa Clause, or whatever they want. I don't care, as long as they don't use it as an excuse to try to enslave or manipulate others. I grew up in a Catholic household. I can't stand their ways, but they're entitled to them, as long as their ways aren't causing harm to others. The problem is, they usually don't care if their ways cause any pain or discomfort to anyone else. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, whatever. Your beliefs are YOUR beliefs, and that does not entitle you to use them against anyone.

Do people without a religious faith manipulate and cause harm? HELL YES. That doesn't make it right. Religion is one of the more commonly used excuses for doing it.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: "Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position."

It becomes like a religion when you not only practice abstinence, but you preach it to others and try to convert them to your belief system that abstinence is the right course of action.
Just as the problem with the shrine isn't with atheists not believing in a religion. It's the demanding others change the way they believe in theirs.

To an atheist, a cross shouldn't be seen as a religious symbol since they don't believe in Jesus. It should be seen as what it's secular definition is - a tool used in one of ancient Rome's methods of execution.
If they're offended by it, then the problem isn't with how they view the cross. They have a problem with how somebody else views the cross, and that is none of their business.

Some people see the symbol of a crescent moon and think of Islam. Others see it and think of pagan religions such as Wicca. An atheist would see it and think of astronomy.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: [QUOTE] A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion. “Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said. The court decided the inmate’s First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists. Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court’s ruling “a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence.” “Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion,” said Fahling. The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion. Fahling said today’s ruling was “further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence.” “It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts’ is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited,” Fahling said.

I take this to mean that everyone, even someone who has no religion, should have the same protection for their beliefs. If religious folks are to have a certain freedom of expression and consideration given to their faith in prision, the same courtesy should be extended to those without a particular religious faith.

Are religious groups given opportunity to discuss their faith? Then people who aren't a part of religion should be able to assemble to discuss their lack of belief or how they are treated in a world based off of these beliefs. That doesn't make it a religion.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Atheists don't believe in God. Everyone acknowledges that religion exists, even atheists. So basically an atheist should be stupid, and not see the religious significance of a symbol?

Not at all. An atheist should see the world through their own belief system and look at a cross as what it means to THEM, and spend less time worrying about what it means to someone else.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Not at all. An atheist should see the world through their own belief system and look at a cross as what it means to THEM, and spend less time worrying about what it means to someone else.

Yes and no. Would you say the same thing to a Native American who was forced into Christianity and had their faith brutally stripped from them by threat of torture or death? Or any conquered people that were forced into another belief?

No one is discussing why some people might even be atheists. In making a choice to not believe, it may have come due to an abusive relationship with people of "faith". Atheists also frequently deal with persecution from religious parties, regardless of their reason. I'm not saying it's an appropriate comparison, but some people have such a bad taste in their mouth for Christianity, they they see a crucifix the same way Jews see a swastika. Again, I'm not saying this is the way it SHOULD be viewed, but each person has their own experiences to factor in. A crucifix is synonymous with Christianity now, saying someone should see their own interpretation of what something is, when the entire world is insisting it means this other thing isn't practical. Especially when that other thing is something that a person doesn't want to accept or be forced to deal with.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2012).]

what will the do next get all the cross taken away at the national cemetery. And to use a the excuse the separation of church and state is bull .there is nothing in the Constitution it was a letter from Jefferson about his concerns

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Yes and no. Would you say the same thing to a Native American who was forced into Christianity and had their faith brutally stripped from them by threat of torture or death? Or any conquered people that were forced into another belief?

Not even close to the same thing. That's actually quite absurd.

quote No one is discussing why some people might even be atheists. In making a choice to not believe, it may have come due to an abusive relationship with people of "faith". Atheists also frequently deal with persecution from religious parties, regardless of their reason. I'm not saying it's an appropriate comparison, but some people have such a bad taste in their mouth for Christianity, they they see a crucifix the same way Jews see a swastika. Again, I'm not saying this is the way it SHOULD be viewed, but each person has their own experiences to factor in. A crucifix is synonymous with Christianity now, saying someone should see their own interpretation of what something is, when the entire world is insisting it means this other thing isn't practical. Especially when that other thing is something that a person doesn't want to accept or be forced to deal with.

So Women that were raped by a guy with a beard can force everyone on public property to be clean shaven....What about the ones raped by clean shaven men?



My Ex Wife was a Biatch, seriously. So according to your scenario I should now be gay, and create (literally) a Court case every time I see heterosexual affection in public.

Well that would be insane, just like seeing a Cross as being the same as a Swastika is insane. Instead of seeking a lawyer the person with the problem should seek a therapist.

Brad

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You forgot Hitler who was shown in your clever little post earlier. Too bad Hitler claimed to be a Christian. Where were the tens of millions of people killed by atheists (for atheist reasons, not just because they were insane)? What wars, what continents, what years? If you want evidence of religion being used as an excuse to kill people, the history books are literally filled with them. A religion is an organized belief system that people belong to. Most atheists aren't going to an atheist church or practicing under an atheist dogma. How are people here getting off by claiming that atheists are doing anything in coordination with each other? I don't go to people's houses and try to get them to abandon their faith in favor of any other belief (or a lack of belief). I don't go to another country looking to do "missionary" work and try to relieve people of their traditions. I don't enslave other cultures and then try to strip them of their identity and religion in favor of not having a religion. I haven't tried to kill an entire people just because their image of "god" looks different than my image of "god". I don't go out and specifically look to fight with people just based on their beliefs. You know why? Because I don't care if someone believes in a God, or Bigfoot, or Santa Clause, or whatever they want. I don't care, as long as they don't use it as an excuse to try to enslave or manipulate others. I grew up in a Catholic household. I can't stand their ways, but they're entitled to them, as long as their ways aren't causing harm to others. The problem is, they usually don't care if their ways cause any pain or discomfort to anyone else. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, whatever. Your beliefs are YOUR beliefs, and that does not entitle you to use them against anyone. Do people without a religious faith manipulate and cause harm? HELL YES. That doesn't make it right. Religion is one of the more commonly used excuses for doing it.

Hitler's Abolition of All Churches Decree

Since you seem to think Hitler was a Christian, can you tell me which church he attended? When was the last time he took Communion?

Your assertion that Hitler was Christian is laughable. Hitler would tell any lie to manipulate and acquire power. I suppose by your reasoning, Hitler was Stalin's best buddy too since they did sign a treaty together and divided Poland between the two of them. Never mind the fact that Hitler planned from the start to turn on Stalin just like he planned to abolish all churches in Germany.

quote I don't enslave other cultures and then try to strip them of their identity and religion in favor of not having a religion.

You may not but your fellow atheists under a Communist banner sure did. Atheism is a core "belief" of communism. The communists were perfectly happy with killing anyone that threaten their power including religious people by the millions.

At this point, I have no idea what you are doing in this thread since you just stated you don't care what people believe. If you don't care, then a memorial cross on a marine base means nothing to you.

To me it is a religious symbol and commonly used as such.

But I don't care about it either, so it doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm sure Christians would be offended if somebody erected a 13 foot cross upside down or erected a 13 foot inverted pentagram on the same spot.

Other than that, to me it is totally fine and I see no issue with it. These Atheist Groups who try to make everything neutral are just a little too into it and need to let go. Kind of like PETA people vs. Pet Owners. One goes to extreme advocacy and most others just enjoy having pets around.

To me, believing in Christianity is silly but people can believe in what they want. I'm sure people think I'm silly for loving Fieros.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Hitler's Abolition of All Churches Decree Since you seem to think Hitler was a Christian, can you tell me which church he attended? When was the last time he took Communion? Your assertion that Hitler was Christian is laughable. Hitler would tell any lie to manipulate and acquire power. I suppose by your reasoning, Hitler was Stalin's best buddy too since they did sign a treaty together and divided Poland between the two of them. Never mind the fact that Hitler planned from the start to turn on Stalin just like he planned to abolish all churches in Germany. You may not but your fellow atheists under a Communist banner sure did. Atheism is a core "belief" of communism. The communists were perfectly happy with killing anyone that threaten their power including religious people by the millions. At this point, I have no idea what you are doing in this thread since you just stated you don't care what people believe. If you don't care, then a memorial cross on a marine base means nothing to you.

Hitler HIMSELF claimed to be a Christian while he was seeking power. Look it up. Whether or not he was truly a practicing Christian doesn't matter in my eyes, because if that was the litmus test then over half of the people who claim to be Christians are in fact not Christians, but I'm not going to open THAT can of worms. Tearing down religion and trying to strip it from people doesn't mean you're an atheist, it means you're seeking to destroy a culture and you know people's beliefs unite them. Just like how slave masters (religion didn't stop this practice now did it?) didn't allow their slaves to keep their religions, or learn to read or write, etc. Truthfully, NEITHER of us was there during these times, or are historians obviously, so arguing about it is pointless (I bet that won't stop you from using it in your argument though). It definitely seems that you're willing to make whatever statement suits your cause, regardless of whether you actually have actual knowledge of the subject.

Here's ONE thing you were right on. I DON'T care what people believe. That is, unless they use their beliefs as an excuse to cause pain to, manipulate, or enslave others. Religion is commonly used as an excuse for these things, so guess what... I'm not fond of organized religion. You keep bringing up "atheist atrocities", but were they so BECAUSE of atheism? Did these people do this because of some atheistic doctrine? Do you even know for sure that the people responsible themselves were atheists, or did they have some kind of other belief they just didn't make public? It's a stretch to claim that someone being a homicidal maniac is because of their lack of belief in something, unless they themselves claim that's why they did something. If that's the basis of your argument, that because these people attacked religion that means they themselves were without religion, then ALL religious people who conquered another culture and tore down the native religion are atheists.

I'll say it again, I'm ok with people having the freedom to show their symbolism, but it should be FAIR in its expression. People that are of a different mindset / faith should be free to express themselves as well. If the freedom is not extended to everyone, OR one belief is so overwhelming that it takes over, then maybe it is better that they be kept personal and not cause emotional harm to others, ie Christian prayer in a public school where no other prayer is being acknowledged or allowed.

I'm not the one causing a disturbance though. I'm debating whether or not those people have the RIGHT to start the disturbance. If you say they don't, then NO religion of any kind has the right to protest movies like "Last Temptation" or any other offensive material or act that insults their religion. Westboro Baptist Church doesn't have the right to do what they've done. Mormons from Utah shouldn't have been able to wage a campaign backing prop 8, etc. You can't be a hypocrite and say that a faithbound organization has more freedom than individuals.

I'm in this thread because I choose to be, you have something to say about that? Would you silence me because I'm voicing my opinion in a respectful manner, which abides by the rules of the forum? Funny, I interpreted this thread to be a debate about whether or not people had the right to express themselves, and if / when that right infringes on other's lives. I guess that only applies to certain opinions / faiths?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Hitler HIMSELF claimed to be a Christian while he was seeking power. Look it up. Whether or not he was truly a practicing Christian doesn't matter in my eyes, because if that was the litmus test then over half of the people who claim to be Christians are in fact not Christians, but I'm not going to open THAT can of worms. Tearing down religion and trying to strip it from people doesn't mean you're an atheist, it means you're seeking to destroy a culture and you know people's beliefs unite them. Just like how slave masters (religion didn't stop this practice now did it?) didn't allow their slaves to keep their religions, or learn to read or write, etc. Truthfully, NEITHER of us was there during these times, or are historians obviously, so arguing about it is pointless (I bet that won't stop you from using it in your argument though). It definitely seems that you're willing to make whatever statement suits your cause, regardless of whether you actually have actual knowledge of the subject. Here's ONE thing you were right on. I DON'T care what people believe. That is, unless they use their beliefs as an excuse to cause pain to, manipulate, or enslave others. Religion is commonly used as an excuse for these things, so guess what... I'm not fond of organized religion. You keep bringing up "atheist atrocities", but were they so BECAUSE of atheism? Did these people do this because of some atheistic doctrine? Do you even know for sure that the people responsible themselves were atheists, or did they have some kind of other belief they just didn't make public? It's a stretch to claim that someone being a homicidal maniac is because of their lack of belief in something, unless they themselves claim that's why they did something. If that's the basis of your argument, that because these people attacked religion that means they themselves were without religion, then ALL religious people who conquered another culture and tore down the native religion are atheists. I'll say it again, I'm ok with people having the freedom to show their symbolism, but it should be FAIR in its expression. People that are of a different mindset / faith should be free to express themselves as well. If the freedom is not extended to everyone, OR one belief is so overwhelming that it takes over, then maybe it is better that they be kept personal and not cause emotional harm to others, ie Christian prayer in a public school where no other prayer is being acknowledged or allowed. I'm not the one causing a disturbance though. I'm debating whether or not those people have the RIGHT to start the disturbance. If you say they don't, then NO religion of any kind has the right to protest movies like "Last Temptation" or any other offensive material or act that insults their religion. Westboro Baptist Church doesn't have the right to do what they've done. Mormons from Utah shouldn't have been able to wage a campaign backing prop 8, etc. You can't be a hypocrite and say that a faithbound organization has more freedom than individuals. I'm in this thread because I choose to be, you have something to say about that? Would you silence me because I'm voicing my opinion in a respectful manner, which abides by the rules of the forum? Funny, I interpreted this thread to be a debate about whether or not people had the right to express themselves, and if / when that right infringes on other's lives. I guess that only applies to certain opinions / faiths?

Your intellectual dishonesty is astounding. There is no point in discussing things further with you since you bought Hitler's lies and ignore his actions. Your argument about having to actually be there is more evidence of your intellectual dishonesty. Where you there at the any of the wars caused by religion that you brought up earlier? Obviously not.

You are entitled to your opinions no matter how wrong or logically twisted they may be.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: ... because if that was the litmus test then over half of the people who claim to be Christians are in fact not Christians....

Couldn't get past this, because I needed to say, "BINGO!"

Many people call themselves Christians, typically because their parents brought them to church or whatever.

quote Matthew 7:15 - 20: “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.

Sorry about quoting the Christian Bible, but it's just for context. Those who complain about Christians and the way they act typically are quite correct. Are there Christians who are misled, uninformed, "underinformed," etc? Sure. My experience, however, - admittedly in the least churched region in the USA (between Boston and Providence) - says that the population of Christians in this country is far less than 80%.

..The hatred of the founding fathers, the hatred of what they believed ,the denigration of the constitution is required to bring down America ,,Of course atheism is a religion,they thrive on attacking good christian belief & doctrine,The atheist have a large business attacking Christians ,,hope they move to Yeman & attack moslems soon!! Only a complete moron conciders a pentegram,penticle or devil worship a ligitimate religion,WHAT Political correct deep down porta potty democrap sweeteats.
..Maryjane & blackrams hit the center 5..
..the USA must be brought down even futher into the pit of non belief,,our atheis, agnostics, wiccan,devilworshippers are all a part of The mindless T.V, twitter society,& amazingly stupid drugged our rock musicians ,there beleave comes from there...There will always be a hatred of Jesus,by the moronic left,there beleaves & gods are at odds with purity, goodness & faith.Fortunately there are warrior christians who defend the faithful..I hate all godless democrats ,marxist & have sent many to an early painful bloody grave.
the atheist,agnostics,devilworshippers,queers are all full of hate,,they really all need to move to central Yemen..I LEARN TO HATE FROM THE DEMOCRATS & LIBERAL LEFT WHO SPIT & THREW URINE ON OUR MILITARY & BURN &
CRAPPED ON THE AMERICAN FLAG.

CHRISTIANITY is based on Christ has risen from the dead,this was done when records were kept,to assist the idiots!!

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Your intellectual dishonesty is astounding. There is no point in discussing things further with you since you bought Hitler's lies and ignore his actions. Your argument about having to actually be there is more evidence of your intellectual dishonesty. Where you there at the any of the wars caused by religion that you brought up earlier? Obviously not. You are entitled to your opinions no matter how wrong or logically twisted they may be.

I am going off of what the people who did the actions claimed about their own beliefs from the information I have available to me. If your argument is that we must judge actions rather than words I fully aggree, which in that way of viewing things, only a very small percentage of religious people are truly what they claim. 90%+ of all Christians by that logic are in fact not Christians then. How many Christians supported war, slavery, lack of equality, lying, murdering, stealing, basically all of the things the religion was supposedly preaching against? How many Muslims support holy wars, and killing innocent people, and stoning women? But hey if it's convenient for YOU to decide when someone is actually religious or not I guess that makes you better than the rest of us (a very religious way of seeing things by the way).

The fact that something exists called a "HOLY WAR" means that religion was the cause. Argue all you want, I don't have to prove I'm right. The simple truth is that everyone is wrong, including me. Disprove that, I'd like to see you try. Prove your entire way of thinking is right, which is based not on fact but on how you view your interpretation of what you think happened. Just the attempt will only prove that you will use your beliefs to try to manipulate others. The fact that you deem me as wrong and twisted, while you view your beliefs as right and rational shows that.

If you want to continue this, go right ahead. You threw your opinion out, I countered. You then tried to invalidate my opinion and tell me I'm wrong for it. Yup, seems like the same actions you've condemned in this thread. If you don't want to continue this, then I would suggest not trying to tell me how wrong I am because I threw a logic based opposing view back at you. You can say I'm wrong all day, that doesn't make YOU right, and it doesn't mean that my view isn't valid.

I pray often,,but I know no one is listening, it JUST don't work that way
what do you feel when you pick up something with your toe,& transfer it to your hand?? SUPERIOR??
SO, WE NEED TO LEARN TO HATE EACH OTHER ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS??

I'm too lazy to even fight over Thursday.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: I pray often,,but I know no one is listening, it JUST don't work that way what do you feel when you pick up something with your toe,& transfer it to your hand?? SUPERIOR?? SO, WE NEED TO LEARN TO HATE EACH OTHER ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS??

Stan,

No offense but I'm not going to debate your points. I'm not trying to make myself feel superior to anyone, including you, so I'm not going to argue against your posts which I rarely understand. The part I could understand I will comment on though. I don't feel we NEED to hate anyone (unless someone chooses to I guess). Religion often degrades into an excuse to hate, as does politics, and any other thing that people use as an excuse. My issue is religion is a fairy tale, a myth. So basically we're using fairy tales as an excuse to kill and torture and manipulate etc? It's not the fairy tale that's doing it, but these fairy tales evolve to condone it, and for those of us that don't believe in the fairy tale it gets very old that what we say and do is being dictated by these fairy tales.

You guys believe, we get it. But we shouldn't have to bend a knee to what you think we should do based on your beliefs, especially when you have a double standard about it, and not all beliefs get equal treatment.

I don't care either way. I can definitely see how it could be offensive, but just don't think it really matters. I view a dead body as just a dead body. The person isn't there anymore. I think graves in general are kind of pointless.

For context, I'm a Believer.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 04-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by TK: I'm too lazy to even fight over Thursday.

Be careful someone will say that's now a religion

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT:

Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of dispute. Raised by a skeptic Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother, Adolf Hitler ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[1][2] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a Christian movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[3]

more.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...%27s_religious_views

Read and learn. Credible sources at your disposal in the bibliography. Hilter believed in, was and publicly expressed he was a Christian and used his Christian beliefs as a justification for his Nazi reign.

But this is all beside the point because the fact that Hilter was a Christian doesn't matter to the thread subject at hand.

I just wanted to correct your misconception about Hilter.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of dispute. Raised by a skeptic Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother, Adolf Hitler ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[1][2] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a Christian movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[3] more..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...%27s_religious_views Read and learn. Credible sources at your disposal in the bibliography. Hilter believed in, was and publicly expressed he was a Christian and used his Christian beliefs as a justification for his Nazi reign. But this is all beside the point because the fact that Hilter was a Christian doesn't matter to the thread subject at hand. I just wanted to correct your misconception about Hilter.

You post a link and quote that Hitler's religious views were a matter in dispute then say definitively that he was a Christian. Do you see anything wrong with that?

The fact is that Hitler lied about everything and anything he could to gain power and manipulate people. It amazes me that people like you still believe his lies.

Explain this then, how can Hitler be a Christian when he issued a decree abolishing all religions other than Nazism with himself as the Messiah? Last time I checked, being a Christian means you believe that Christ is the Messiah.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: You post a link and quote that Hitler's religious views were a matter in dispute then say definitively that he was a Christian. Do you see anything wrong with that? The fact is that Hitler lied about everything and anything he could to gain power and manipulate people. It amazes me that people like you still believe his lies. Explain this then, how can Hitler be a Christian when he issued a decree abolishing all religions other than Nazism with himself as the Messiah? Last time I checked, being a Christian means you believe that Christ is the Messiah.

Um.... It's in dispute to some people who happen to be Christian because they don't want Hitler to be tied to their religion.

Once again you may have been misinformed, I believe the decree you are referring to is called the Reichstag Fire Decree and Hilter's passage of the Enabling Act.

Here it is from Hilter's mouth: (Translated)

By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. It will observe the agreements drawn up between the Churches and the provinces; their rights will not be touched. The Government, however, hopes and expects that the task of national and ethical renewal of our people, which it has set itself, will receive the same respect by the other side. The Government will treat all other denominations with objective and impartial justice. It cannot, however, tolerate allowing membership of a certain denomination or of a certain race being used as a release from all common legal obligations, or as a blank cheque for unpunishable behavior, or for the toleration of crimes. [The national Government will allow and confirm to the Christian denominations the enjoyment of their due influence in schools and education.] And it will be concerned for the sincere cooperation between Church and State. The struggle against the materialistic ideology and for the erection of a true people's community (Volksgemeinschaft) serves as much the interests of the German nation as of our Christian faith. ...The national Government, seeing in Christianity the unshakable foundation of the moral and ethical life of our people, attaches utmost importance to the cultivation and maintenance of the friendliest relations with the Holy See. ...The rights of the churches will not be curtailed; their position in relation to the State will not be changed.

http://atheism.about.com/od...y/a/HitlerValues.htm


The huge disgust that Hitler had against Atheists, Jewish and all other religions that were not Christian dominated is the same feeling that many of today's Christians have with others. So Hitler is not unique in his mindset. Many Christians here on PFF and perhaps even yourself share the same mindset as Hitler.

What made Hitler dangerous is that he had the full power over the government and military that he can enact on his thoughts of a perfect world.

That is why it is important not to give people who are devoutly religious any position of authority or power. They will abuse and corrupt it to the hilt.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 04-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Um.... It's in dispute to some people who happen to be Christian because they don't want Hitler to be tied to their religion. Once again you may have been misinformed, I believe the decree you are referring to is called the Reichstag Fire Decree and Hilter's passage of the Enabling Act. Here it is from Hilter's mouth: (Translated) By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. It will observe the agreements drawn up between the Churches and the provinces; their rights will not be touched. The Government, however, hopes and expects that the task of national and ethical renewal of our people, which it has set itself, will receive the same respect by the other side. The Government will treat all other denominations with objective and impartial justice. It cannot, however, tolerate allowing membership of a certain denomination or of a certain race being used as a release from all common legal obligations, or as a blank cheque for unpunishable behavior, or for the toleration of crimes. [The national Government will allow and confirm to the Christian denominations the enjoyment of their due influence in schools and education.] And it will be concerned for the sincere cooperation between Church and State. The struggle against the materialistic ideology and for the erection of a true people's community (Volksgemeinschaft) serves as much the interests of the German nation as of our Christian faith. ...The national Government, seeing in Christianity the unshakable foundation of the moral and ethical life of our people, attaches utmost importance to the cultivation and maintenance of the friendliest relations with the Holy See. ...The rights of the churches will not be curtailed; their position in relation to the State will not be changed. http://atheism.about.com/od...y/a/HitlerValues.htm The huge disgust that Hitler had against Atheists, Jewish and all other religions that were not Christian dominated is the same feeling that many of today's Christians have with others. So Hitler is not unique in his mindset. Many Christians here on PFF and perhaps even yourself share the same mindset as Hitler. What made Hitler dangerous is that he had the full power over the government and military that he can enact on his thoughts of a perfect world. That is why it is important not to give people who are devoutly religious any position of authority or power. They will abuse and corrupt it to the hilt.

Apparently being an atheist means believing Hitler's lies and ignoring the information that you yourself post. We have two atheists in this thread that believe Hitler's lies. When people that disagree with me agree with Hitler, I know I'm on the right side.

BTW, you didn't even have to look up another link had you read the same Wikipedia page that you posted earlier. Maybe you should have taken your own advice and read your own link.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Apparently being an atheist means believing Hitler's lies and ignoring the information that you yourself post. We have two atheists in this thread that believe Hitler's lies. When people that disagree with me agree with Hitler, I know I'm on the right side. BTW, you didn't even have to look up another link had you read the same Wikipedia page that you posted earlier. Maybe you should have taken your own advice and read your own link.

OK, here's where I need to point something out, since you're too obtuse to see past your ignorance. Not once, did ANYONE in this thread agree with or say we believe in ANYTHING Hitler did. You're the one saying that we do, not us. This is exactly what I was talking about, you're willing to use whatever LIE you deem fit to try to make yourself out to be "right". Thanks for proving my point, and thanks for showing your true colors. If we had been condoning Hitler's behavior, the whole O/T population would have jumped on us by now. YOU'RE the one with a skewed perception here.

You showed Hitler in a post that was aimed at saying atheists killed 10's of millions of people in the past century. There is evidence that Hitler was in fact a Christian (perverted perception of Christianity or not). Now, you're arguing that he didn't ACT like a Christian, and that we are fools because we are saying he claimed he was. OK, then I say YOU'RE not a Christian, as I don't see anywhere in the bible where Jesus acted like you are now. Hey that was fun, I'm going to do that to everyone that claims to be a Christian now, just like you're doing.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: OK, here's where I need to point something out, since you're too obtuse to see past your ignorance. Not once, did ANYONE in this thread agree with or say we believe in ANYTHING Hitler did.

Is that so?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You forgot Hitler who was shown in your clever little post earlier. Too bad Hitler claimed to be a Christian.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Hitler HIMSELF claimed to be a Christian while he was seeking power.

Either you believe his claim that he was a Christian and agree with it or you don't. There is no middle ground here. Since YOU are the one that brought it up as a way to discount my humorous pic, then it is you who are agreeing with Hitler.

I rest my case.