quote Originally posted by Formula88: That is an EXCELLENT point! However, the argument never comes from Atheists refusing to listen because religions don't provide scientific proof. It's Atheists demanding religions stop believing or practicing in some way because Atheists are offended by the religious practicing their religion. Look at this example at Camp Pendleton. Is there ANYTHING about that cross that prevents an Atheist from not listening to a Christian point of view? Are atheists who climb to the shrine to pray for their lost comrades .. oh wait - would an atheist even use the shrine? At all? Are Atheists demanding equal representation of "their non-religion" at a "shrine?" If an Atheist doesn't believe and doesn't want to believe - more power to them. If an Atheist wants others to not believe or restrict religious practices because they themselves don't believe - that's a problem.

So long as the Christian who erected the Christian Cross at Camp Pendleton allow and have no issues with any other religious symbols, including Satanic symbols to be erect at this site for grieving, then there is no issue.

The problem lies that Christians want to put a claim that they own the US Government because it is part of its founding. Which is a complete lie.

If it was on private lands, there is no problem. You can put up anything you want. Like a Billboard that Jesus is a Homosexual. But on government land, you either allow anybody to be permitted to erect something and designated as a public forum. If not, then as somebody else suggested, erect a Christian Chapel and commission the site as a chapel site for Christians. If not, then if they want to remove all religious symbols from the site, I also don't see that as an issue.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 04-15-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: ... We'll talk when he / she (whoever it is you're relying on to save you from yourself) returns ok? ....

By then, it will be too late.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Yes, their motives will dictate whether they are being reasonable or not. You don't need to sit and listen and say "ok use scientific method to prove it to me" to refuse to want to listen. The constant barrage of brainwashing attempts causes people to shut down to it, and not want to listen even if someone had a better way of explaining. Then the truth eventually has to come out, we know you don't have proof. The same argument has been going on for centuries, and nothing has come out that proves what you're saying. We'll talk when he / she (whoever it is you're relying on to save you from yourself) returns ok? We'll talk when you don't have people trying to prove that the Earth was actually made in 7 days, and that all scientific evidence that it took millions / billions of years is in fact wrong. We'll talk when mankind evolves to the point where we can even comprehend what's actually happening in our own bodies, then on the planet, then the universe. Right now, you guys are just as ignorant as I am, more so in some cases (not intended for anyone specifically), so I know damn well YOU don't know the secrets of anything. It's like one kindergartener telling another kindergartener what advanced calculus is before they've even learned to read.

Ok, fine. And what part of anything you just said relates to there being a cross on a shrine Marines set up to honor their fallen?
How is that demanding ANYTHING of Atheists other than what you just said they want to do anyway - ignore it?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: So Atheists are the caped avengers, bringing on hellfire and damnation for things that happened centuries ago....

No that was God when he flooded the entire world and killed everybody expect Noah's family and a pair of every land animal and insects (expect dinosaurs).

Or was it that God killed everybody on earth, because life is pre-destined by God right? He knows you will not believe in him or that you will suffer. So lets let innocent children get raped, mutilated, starved, dismembered and all else things horror of torture a man of God can inflict on his fellow human being in the name of God. Yeah!

Ohh. I think it is God who will once again bring hellfire and damnation for a 3rd or 4th time on earth for the Rapture. When non-believers will be left behind to feel the wrath of a multiple-head monster serpent that will cause chaos and mayhem onto earth, while the true-believers will vanish into heaven in a blink of an eye.

Either way! We're screwed!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: ... If it was on private lands, there is no problem. You can put up anything you want. Like a Billboard that Jesus is a Homosexual. But on government land, you either allow anybody to be permitted to erect something and designated as a public forum. If not, then as somebody else suggested, erect a Christian Chapel and commission the site as a chapel site for Christians. If not, then if they want to remove all religious symbols from the site, I also don't see that as an issue.

Is a military base "Public Property?"

In one case, yes, because it belongs to "We the People." Our taxes paid for it, and still pay for its upkeep, and we (at least in spirit) volunteer to concede to duly appointed authorities, which includes the Police and the Military.

OTOH, the Military has it's own Code of Conduct and its own Judiciary system. We put it in place so it couldn't get mucked about by the will of a popular majority and, supposedly, that it couldn't be used as a social experiment. You and I own an admittedly infinitesimal piece of the Military, but try to get on a base. Try to board a currently commissioned warship (other than the USS Constitution) without the proper papers and/or authority.

Yet here is a group of civilians, trying to use the civilian court system, to force the Military to their whim. What compelling reason that serves the benefit of the defense of our Nation and upholds the Constitution that these men and women have sworn to defend does this hold?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: So long as the Christian who erected the Christian Cross at Camp Pendleton allow and have no issues with any other religious symbols, including Satanic symbols to be erect at this site for grieving, then there is no issue.

Has that happened?
Did you RFTA?

quote From TFA: Marano tells me no one would complain if, for example, someone decided to put up a Buddhist shrine, “No one would complain at all, and I bet if we poked around, we’d probably find something like that here…

Has there been anything to suggest Marano is lying or mistaken? You're not talking about anyone actually offended now - you're only postulating a hypothetical offense.
There's nothing saying there can't be any religious symbols on government property. There are Chapels on military bases. All the Marines really need to do is have this shrine formally recognized as a duly authorized religious site.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-15-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Has there been anything to suggest Marano is lying or mistaken? You're not talking about anyone actually offended now - you're only postulating a hypothetical offense. There's nothing saying there can't be any religious symbols on government property. There are Chapels on military bases. All the Marines really need to do is have this shrine formally recognized as a duly authorized religious site.

Isn't that what Marano is doing? Suggesting that no one would be offended if there were a Buddha statue and not confirming if there is really one there?

Talk about double standard.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Isn't that what Marano is doing? Suggesting that no one would be offended if there were a Buddha statue and not confirming if there is really one there? Talk about double standard.

Keep in mind that quote was taken from a live interview and not an internet pissing contest.
He probably didn't take the time to search out a symbol or look up a Wiki link to document everything he said in case a keyboard jockey wanted to take him to task.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Keep in mind that quote was taken from a live interview and not an internet pissing contest. He probably didn't take the time to search out a symbol or look up a Wiki link to document everything he said in case a keyboard jockey wanted to take him to task.

It's a military matter.

It's in the hands of your Jesus, as you may say.

If they have it removed or keep it there, it doesn't matter to me.

If they remove it, you and many Christians will piss and moan. If they keep it, you will celebrate and try to throw it in everybody's face.

It's a nothing to me really. I just love debating Christians.

Regardless of the outcome, I will express no emotions whatsoever.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 04-15-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: It's a military matter. It's in the hands of your Jesus, as you may say. If they have it removed or keep it there, it doesn't matter to me. If they remove it, you and many Christians will piss and moan. If they keep it, you will celebrate and try to throw it in everybody's face. It's a nothing to me really. I just love debating Christians. Regardless of the outcome, I will express no emotions whatsoever.

Yes, it is a military matter. I already said that.
He's not *my* Jesus.
For someone who doesn't care - you care enough to make all these arguments.
If they remove it or if it stays, *I* won't be complaining or bragging. That's your own projection.

You've expressed plenty of emotions already. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have bothered to post, other than as you said, you like to troll Christians.

Do you troll other religions - or just Christian religions? I'm just wondering if you're as even handed in your bigotry as you are in your arrogance.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yes, it is a military matter. I already said that. He's not *my* Jesus. For someone who doesn't care - you care enough to make all these arguments. If they remove it or if it stays, *I* won't be complaining or bragging. That's your own projection. You've expressed plenty of emotions already. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have bothered to post, other than as you said, you like to troll Christians. Do you troll other religions - or just Christian religions? I'm just wondering if you're as even handed in your bigotry as you are in your arrogance.

Funny considering Christians are some of the most outspoken and morally offensive people on the planet when it comes to respecting other peoples' beliefs. Trolling Christians to many people is just holding a mirror up to their face. I'm not doing this just to troll. I'm genuinely trying to make a point about the double standard. You guys have mob mentality. Might makes right and you guys have the numbers, so of course you're right.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Did that video create this motivator poster too?

Hey, you can't use my photo like that! I have rights!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yes, it is a military matter. I already said that. He's not *my* Jesus. For someone who doesn't care - you care enough to make all these arguments. If they remove it or if it stays, *I* won't be complaining or bragging. That's your own projection. You've expressed plenty of emotions already. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have bothered to post, other than as you said, you like to troll Christians. Do you troll other religions - or just Christian religions? I'm just wondering if you're as even handed in your bigotry as you are in your arrogance.

I'm assuming that debating and trolling are the same thing to you.

So that means when ever you express an opinion, a thought or an opposing view in any subject from cars, politics, religion, sexual position, beer or whatever, you are in fact trolling?

You're pissed! I understand. That's the difference between trolling and debating (which I clearly stated), one has their emotions tied all into it and the others don't.

You can in fact debate points or the merits of some subject without having any emotional ties to it or even caring about the subject. For example, most people could care less about Kim Kardashian, but they would express an opinion about her. Does that make everybody arrogant trolls?

I know you don't like Atheist and you cannot stand the fact that somebody can speak against Jesus your Christ. But this is the real world buddy. Grow a pair instead of being all pissy about it.

I win, by the way.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Funny considering Christians are some of the most outspoken and morally offensive people on the planet when it comes to respecting other peoples' beliefs. Trolling Christians to many people is just holding a mirror up to their face. I'm not doing this just to troll. I'm genuinely trying to make a point about the double standard. You guys have mob mentality. Might makes right and you guys have the numbers, so of course you're right.

When you say "you guys" I guess you're referring to me with your overall grouping of Christians.
Can you show me anywhere I've demanded you change your beliefs or demanded you believe something without proof?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: When you say "you guys" I guess you're referring to me with your overall grouping of Christians. Can you show me anywhere I've demanded you change your beliefs or demanded you believe something without proof?

Just saying "The Bible is proof!" isn't good enough. 1st. of all it is inaccurate on many counts vs. the archeological record. 2. There are too many different versions that tell a different story. 3. While the Old Testament is included in the Christian Bible, it is subjectively referenced and many of its passages are ignored, complete books are removed, and interpreted as a separate attitude of God for which the New Testament takes its place and is the replacement of the Torah. 4. Even the New Testament has so many contradictions and different versions of Jesus story that it radically depicts different attitudes and behaviors. 5. You can dismiss the Bible all together and not even read it, own a copy of or even have heard a single passage and still go into heaven. One just has to believe that Jesus is the son of God. That is the only requirement.

It is usually a Christian's duty to try to convert everybody to Christianity. Not saying that you may belong to a sect of Christians that do not believe in missionary work, such as the Calvinist or that you practice a very selfish version of Christianity (most common) that makes you believe you are specially chosen and you know God and you know you are already saved and going to heaven and screw everybody else.

Either way, you aren't a passionate Christian that is for sure. But that doesn't mean your right or wrong or you are telling people to worship Jesus as God without proof (because there is none). If you are not telling people to worship Jesus, then that's cool. You are right to say that you are not telling people to change their beliefs.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: When you say "you guys" I guess you're referring to me with your overall grouping of Christians. Can you show me anywhere I've demanded you change your beliefs or demanded you believe something without proof?

Here's the deal, religious folks refer to atheists in a group, as if they're all assembled and working towards the same goal. Lack of religion is not in and of itself a uniting thing. Usually it's a reason NOT to unite. The main thing atheists have in common is that they're NOT united with the religious folks. Religious folks ARE united by their beliefs, and the belief that their beliefs make them better than anyone who opposes them, even people that aren't openly opposing them.

Wichita is right, one of the cornerstones of Judeo-Christian beliefs is proselytizing. "Spreading the word" is just a friendly way of saying brainwashing or manipulating someone into buying into your belief, when you have no substantial proof that anything you say is anything other than hearsay. Even if there WAS proof, you're not privy to it, you're taking someone else's word on it instead of seeing for yourself. Here is where you say you don't have to because you feel the presence. When I was a kid I felt that if I focused strongly enough while saying it, I could make the "Charm of Making" from Excalibur work and wake up a real dragon. I also felt I could "use the force" to make things move. I'm willing to bet my conviction was just as strong as yours at the time.

Again, you have the right to your belief, and I respect that you stand up for your beliefs. It doesn't make them any more real, or mean that you have any more worth than someone who chooses not to believe in Jesus, Zeus, or Thor, or Cernunnos, or Shiva, etc. It also sure as hell doesn't mean that the rest of us HAVE to be told we have to suffer humoring you.

Edit - To being this back on topic, if the guys bringing the action aren't Marines (or directly attached to the base), or they've suffered no offense or harm due to the crucifixes, then they really are probably media whores and should just drop it. I wouldn't have made a fuss unless I knew for sure there was discrimination at play, but that's me. I have no idea what caused them to bring about this action. No, it's not just a Marine issue. There used to be physical abuse in the military, and probably would still be if left in military justice hands. People serving in the military should have no less rights than us civilians.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-15-2012).]

One quick question about the article. If it's a memorial and not religious in nature, why are the crosses the largest things there, and why would it not still be a memorial if they replaced the crosses with something like a flag? I know people have a personal attachment to the symbols, but if it wasn't supposed to be about the symbols, why does it matter if they stay or go? On the other hand, if no one knew about it before, it must not be that obtrusive, so it is hard to see why it's all of a sudden being condemned.

Oh, and there's no way in hell that would have stayed up if it was another symbol that size. If that cross was upside down, or it was a Buddhist symbol, a pentacle, or a star of David, it would never have lasted this long. If it was a minority religion, the separation of church and state would have been brought up by people as an excuse to take it down long ago.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-16-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe:Oh, and there's no way in hell that would have stayed up if it was another symbol that size. If that cross was upside down, or it was a Buddhist symbol, a pentacle, or a star of David, it would never have lasted this long. If it was a minority religion, the separation of church and state would have been brought up by people as an excuse to take it down long ago.

No one ever claimed Christians aren't hypocrites. It's human nature, adding a religious "us-vs-them" mentality only makes it worse.

I personally think we should leave the crosses alone, and anyone who doesn't want to be represented by a cross shouldn't be. Don't the dog tags state religion, if any?


"God's word is eternal."
"So you stone your children for dishonoring you?"
"Oh, that's the OLD testament, we don't follow THAT anymore."