Saw this the other day about the pope and his butler.

Vatican in chaos after butler arrested for leaks


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May 27, 8:04 AM (ET)

By NICOLE WINFIELD

VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican's inquisition into the source of leaked documents has yielded its first target with the arrest of the pope's butler, but the investigation is continuing into a scandal that has embarrassed the Holy See by revealing evidence of internal power struggles, intrigue and corruption in the highest levels of the Catholic Church governance.

The detention of butler Paolo Gabriele, one of the few members of the papal household, capped one of the most convulsive weeks in recent Vatican history and threw the Holy See into chaos as it enters a critical phase in its efforts to show the world it's serious about complying with international norms on financial transparency.

The tumult began with the publication last weekend of a book of leaked Vatican documents including correspondence, notes and memos to the pope and his private secretary. It peaked with the inglorious ouster on Thursday of the president of the Vatican bank. And it concluded with confirmation Saturday that Pope Benedict XVI's own butler was the alleged mole feeding documents to Italian journalists in an apparent bid to discredit the pontiff's No. 2.

"If you wrote this in fiction you wouldn't believe it," said Carl Anderson, a member of the board of the Vatican bank which contributed to the whirlwind with its no-confidence vote in its president, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi. "No editor would let you put it in a novel."

More at the link

http://apnews.excite.com/ar...20527/D9V11GQG1.html

I have always considered the church as nothing more than a scam by snake oil salesmen out for their own gain and to me this just proves it. Sure they donate to the needy, but they put themselves first and foremost above everyone else. They have been proven to be nothing more than a bunch of pedophiles hiding in the church. And as more leeks out about their money and what they have amassed for themselves it proves it even more. While the rest of the world is in ruin they are sitting on billions of billions of dollars they have bilked from those who blindly believe the BS they spew.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I'll even take it a step further and say that Christianity is a fraud and Jesus as a Son of God is complete fabrication. The Church as to the Religion as to the Belief, it is all perpetuated for the benefit of control, power and money, but we have soooooo many people here in American and even on this forum that will stubbornly refuse to see tha fact, but rather believe in the entire lie.

Until you see that Jesus was merely a man and not a God, you will never be free.

Here is the reason why people believe in Jesus as a Son of God.

Thanks for reminding me why I have you narrow minded morons both rated negative.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Thanks for reminding me why I have you narrow minded morons both rated negative.

I don't hate you the same you do me.

Sorry that you are offended. The Youtube I posted is a classic example of why you hate.

So not believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Scandals in Vatican is considered narrow minded ?

Just pray for me.Although I know you won't.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: 1. I don't hate you the same you do me. 2. Sorry that you are offended. The Youtube I posted is a classic example of why you hate. 3. So not believing in Jesus as the Son of God and Scandals in Vatican is considered narrow minded ? 4. Just pray for me.Although I know you won't.

1. Never said I did, although your diatribes are tiring.
2. No you're not. Not in the slightest. I didn't watch the video.
3. You can believe whatever you like. (See how that works?) But I get tired of being beat over the head with it. (Again.. See how that works? I don't do that to other people.)
4. I'm going to take that as if you really meant it, and not the sarcasm which I believe it probably is. Done.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I'm going to take that as if you really meant it, and not the sarcasm which I believe it probably is. Done.

I know! I really meant it.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

So much truth in what Gandhi said, so much truth in it.

I really meant that you really won't pray for me.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I'll even take it a step further and say that Christianity is a fraud and Jesus as a Son of God is complete fabrication. The Church as to the Religion as to the Belief, it is all perpetuated for the benefit of control, power and money, but we have soooooo many people here in American and even on this forum that will stubbornly refuse to see tha fact, but rather believe in the entire lie. Until you see that Jesus was merely a man and not a God, you will never be free. Here is the reason why people believe in Jesus as a Son of God.

id give you a +1 but its already there. thanks for the video now maybe i can explain it a little better to some of my friends.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: 3. You can believe whatever you like. (See how that works?) But I get tired of being beat over the head with it. (Again.. See how that works? I don't do that to other people.) .

I don’t like it when people try to beat me over the head with it ether, in the other direction.

Our property is posted yet the Jehovah’s, Mormons, Catholics and 7th day advents and rest try to convert us and just walk right down the driveway and knock on our door trying to get us to convert. Screw them, I ask them if they can read, there are signs at the end of the driveway and slam the door in their faces. Last 2 that showed up I looked at them and said not only what I said but “Get the fk out of here”

With all the Catholic Church’s preachers who get caught molesting young boys and just get moved to another church and it just gets covered up by them. I would think eventually you would get the idea, but you don’t. And if you have me negative for my opinion of the church I think you are no better than those preachers because in reality you are just accepting what they do.

Funny I don’t have you anything but neutral, I am entitled to my opinion just like you, but I guess being the good catholic you are you must defend their actions.


Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

We're ALL gonna find out someday who is right and who is wrong.

I feel sorry for 84fiero123. It must be a real drag constantly feeling like there is something wrong with EVERYTHING.

So they are like every other organization on the earth. Not like anyone didn't already know this. By nature people are corrupt.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-27-2012).]

Did you actually read the ENTIRE news story? It is about the Vatican trying to clean up its act and in the process a number of internal and embarrassing documents were leaked. Also, the former head of the Vatican Bank was severely lacking and deserved to get sacked. So what?

Whenever any organization cleans house, there will be disgruntled people circulating embarrassing documents. Based on what is written in the story, it sounds like the Vatican will come out this cleaner, more transparent and stronger than before. I suppose that could be seen as a bad thing for anyone that hates the Catholic Church.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: ...but I guess being the good catholic you are you must defend their actions.

Actually, I describe myself as a "recovering Catholic".
I was raised as a Catholic, but I don't claim it any more. Has to do with my own personal beliefs and faith.
It has nothing to do with the molestation issue, although that makes me very sad. In my entire life as a Catholic, I never saw or heard of any molestation.
Even though there are headlines from time to time about it, you never hear about the good priests who continue to keep their vows, and live the life they swore to live.
As usual, all the troublemakers (whatever small percentage that may be) get all the press.

My problem with you is that you have taken a broad brush and painted all of them as molesters, snake oil salesmen, and scammers. Nice.

Edit - In case you need a refresher...

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I have always considered the church as nothing more than a scam by snake oil salesmen out for their own gain and to me this just proves it. Sure they donate to the needy, but they put themselves first and foremost above everyone else. They have been proven to be nothing more than a bunch of pedophiles hiding in the church. And as more leeks out about their money and what they have amassed for themselves it proves it even more. While the rest of the world is in ruin they are sitting on billions of billions of dollars they have bilked from those who blindly believe the BS they spew.

Like I said... Nice.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-27-2012).]

do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (and no, it's not just judeo-christian)

quote Originally posted by lurker: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (and no, it's not just judeo-christian)

Or the alternative view: Do unto others before they have the chance to do it to you.

Here is a shoe for some to try on.

bigot (n)

bing.com
big·ot

[ bíggət ]


1.intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views

Synonyms: extremist, diehard, dogmatist, racist, chauvinist, hypocrite

quote Originally posted by Raydar: 1. Never said I did, although your diatribes are tiring. 2. No you're not. Not in the slightest. I didn't watch the video. 3. You can believe whatever you like. (See how that works?) But I get tired of being beat over the head with it. (Again.. See how that works? I don't do that to other people.) 4. I'm going to take that as if you really meant it, and not the sarcasm which I believe it probably is. Done.

everyone has their views, but some are very very disrespectfull of others views, and if your a god fearing person.. put on the flame suit..
I'll take the flame suit now over when they'll need it..

And you know what? If there is a hell I am dam sure dear old dad is there and already has ice cold beer on hand so why worry?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Here is a shoe for some to try on. bigot (n) bing.com big·ot [ bíggət ] 1.intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views Synonyms: extremist, diehard, dogmatist, racist, chauvinist, hypocrite

Just don't try to steal my shoes.

*sigh*

Steve,

Have you ever taken some serious time to at least study the New Testament? I'm not denying that there is much corruption within the various denominations, but I'll tell you one thing is for certain... Ever since I was saved, my life has changed for the better, and it wasn't because of me... I know God is real, and I know that the true and correct Gospel is the truth...

This is the quick and easy version that I can quickly type up...

God created Adam and Eve, and the Lord gave Adam a choice to obey or to disobey by partaking of the fruit... Adam took the fruit, and because of that disobedience, fell into sin. And throughout the Old Testament, God promised that he would send a redeemer... thus
God in His love, though however totally incomprehensible, came on earth as a God/man to pay for the sins of men and women on the cross.... His death provided eternal salvation for those whom He died for. He proved that death couldn't hold Him because He came back from the dead. Yes, there is no "proof" per se, but if God has chosen you to believe, you'll believe and be saved.

As for Wichita,

1 Corinthians (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Why would you think that? (It's not true. Although since it seems to bother you so much, I probably wouldn't say anything unless you asked, like you are doing now.)

Because people are selfish and most people are fake posers. You may consider yourself Christian and Catholic by your own selfish means because you think by just saying and thinking so you get to go to heaven with half-naked chicks with bird wings playing harp music to you all day.

But you are a CINO. A Christian in name only, because 99.9% of Christians and even Catholics do not following or put 100% full faith and belief in their Lord Jesus Christ. You're nothing but a vivacious sinner thinking you have the easy way out and you can keep on sinning every single day and be mean spirited and bigoted to non-believers and so on.

So no, you won't pray for me. You have no intention nor ever will. It's your CINO ways.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: So no, you won't pray for me. You have no intention nor ever will. It's your CINO ways.

when someone says they will pray for me, i recognize that they mean well, say "thank you" and move on. i don't know if they really did pray for me, but it never did me any harm that i know of. to my mind, militant atheism is just as bad as militant theism, so it's often a case of the pot calling the kettle black. if youre interested in having a civil discussion about it, i'll be glad to share my opinion, but i've never seen anyone's mind change, and argument serves no purpose but to raisse everyone's blood pressure and make everyone defensive.

as for the original post, there have been numerous times when "religious institutions" have been used to control and defraud. nothing new here.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I don’t like it when people try to beat me over the head with it ether, in the other direction. Our property is posted yet the Jehovah’s, Mormons, Catholics and 7th day advents and rest try to convert us and just walk right down the driveway and knock on our door trying to get us to convert. Screw them, I ask them if they can read, there are signs at the end of the driveway and slam the door in their faces. Last 2 that showed up I looked at them and said not only what I said but “Get the fk out of here”

Like this

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: *sigh* Steve, Have you ever taken some serious time to at least study the New Testament? I'm not denying that there is much corruption within the various denominations, but I'll tell you one thing is for certain... Ever since I was saved, my life has changed for the better, and it wasn't because of me... I know God is real, and I know that the true and correct Gospel is the truth... This is the quick and easy version that I can quickly type up... God created Adam and Eve, and the Lord gave Adam a choice to obey or to disobey by partaking of the fruit... Adam took the fruit, and because of that disobedience, fell into sin. And throughout the Old Testament, God promised that he would send a redeemer... thus God in His love, though however totally incomprehensible, came on earth as a God/man to pay for the sins of men and women on the cross.... His death provided eternal salvation for those whom He died for. He proved that death couldn't hold Him because He came back from the dead. Yes, there is no "proof" per se, but if God has chosen you to believe, you'll believe and be saved. As for Wichita, 1 Corinthians (ESV) 1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1Co 1:19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." 1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

You have every right to believe in whatever you want and so do I but don’t try to push your beleifs on me. The bible was written by men not god.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

all i can say is philosoraptor cant be wrong.




one of my favorites

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: You have every right to believe in whatever you want and so do I but don’t try to push your beleifs on me. The bible was written by men not god. Steve

How can you say that though? (And I'll use this with a what if statement)... what if God really did inspire men to write down what He wanted to have written down?

Did you know that according to Church history that all of the original Apostles (except John) died gruesome deaths for the sake of Christ? Why would anyone die for a lie? If they knew it was a lie, wouldn't it have been better for them to have renounced it? Yet look at History... the church blossomed (albeit there is corruption)... but in everyone that has been truly saved, their lives have been radically changed. My life has been radically changed... I used to do some really wicked things, but God opened my heart, and I believed in the gospel... my life was changed. God is constantly leading and guiding me... when I sin, He convicts me. God has stopped me from pursuing various young women for a re4lationship. This isn't mere fantasy... it's for real.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: How can you say that though? (And I'll use this with a what if statement)... what if God really did inspire men to write down what He wanted to have written down? Did you know that according to Church history that all of the original Apostles (except John) died gruesome deaths for the sake of Christ? Why would anyone die for a lie? If they knew it was a lie, wouldn't it have been better for them to have renounced it? Yet look at History... the church blossomed (albeit there is corruption)... but in everyone that has been truly saved, their lives have been radically changed. My life has been radically changed... I used to do some really wicked things, but God opened my heart, and I believed in the gospel... my life was changed. God is constantly leading and guiding me... when I sin, He convicts me. God has stopped me from pursuing various young women for a re4lationship. This isn't mere fantasy... it's for real.

the same reason teh germans fought and died for hitlers lie. out of fear. thats all religion is, do this or ill spank you. so most go along with it because they fear the unknown. fear gives a lot of pople with no "real" power some of the most devistating power in the world. ill edit this if i can find the clip im looking for that proves my point.


edited to add

http://www.metacafe.com/wat...ms_monologue_part_2/

i do not beleive in thulsa doom but it serves to prove a point.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 05-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: How can you say that though? (And I'll use this with a what if statement)... what if God really did inspire men to write down what He wanted to have written down?

"Inspire" is still the same, man wrote it from his own mind and it wasn't 'dictated' like a letter to man. Man also changed it over the generations to suit themselves, often times due to greed or corruption. If 'gods word' is so absolute, then why has it been transmuted so much, and still accepted?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: So no, you won't pray for me. You have no intention nor ever will.

Too late. Sorry.
Believe what you will.

Edit - I'm done here. Y'all have fun.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: the same reason teh germans fought and died for hitlers lie. out of fear. thats all religion is, do this or ill spank you. so most go along with it because they fear the unknown. fear gives a lot of pople with no "real" power some of the most devistating power in the world. ill edit this if i can find the clip im looking for that proves my point.

While true, religions can also do good if used properly. They can 'move mountains', so to speak. They can provide a framework for which to build successful societies, and help direct those who cant 'dance to their own drum' and need to be told what is right and wrong..

Myself i have my own internal moral compass, and dont need to be lead around.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: How does the picture of Adam and Eve destroy anyone's faith? It's a mere renaissance painting...

i didnt put that up there for the caption of destroying anyone faith. i probably should have clearified that. it just shows how many errors are involved with all of the religions.

quote Originally posted by lurker: when someone says they will pray for me, i recognize that they mean well, say "thank you" and move on. i don't know if they really did pray for me, but it never did me any harm that i know of. to my mind, militant atheism is just as bad as militant theism, so it's often a case of the pot calling the kettle black. if youre interested in having a civil discussion about it, i'll be glad to share my opinion, but i've never seen anyone's mind change, and argument serves no purpose but to raisse everyone's blood pressure and make everyone defensive. as for the original post, there have been numerous times when "religious institutions" have been used to control and defraud. nothing new here.

Its just that prayer is an integrate part of the Christian Faith. When one says they will pray for you, they should at a time of their prayer, mentioning that request to God as they pray.

If one says it as a conventional expression to used to mean well, we usually use say something else, such as: "Take Care", "I wish the best for you", "I hope you get well soon," but if "I'll keep you in my prayers" and "I'll pray for you" has become just a conventional passe' expression and not to be taken literally, that the person will actually be falling down on their knees, hands folded and murmuring a prayer on your behalf, then so be it.

But I know that Christians take pride and are serious about the conviction and especially in prayer. To dismiss praying as a routine spiritual communion to God that it is normally associated with, but to nothing more than a conventional expression gesture of goodwill, that is a huge slap in the face to Christianity and the Jesus God. Praying is an observance to God and without that, you don't worship the Christian Jesus God or any other God of any other religion for the matter.

Sure! I know that is how most Christians say it. That is why I call them poser Christians or CINOs, because they don't possess a strong faith in their own religion and God.

Sorry your shift button isn't working for you.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 05-28-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: How can you say that though? (And I'll use this with a what if statement)... what if God really did inspire men to write down what He wanted to have written down? Did you know that according to Church history that all of the original Apostles (except John) died gruesome deaths for the sake of Christ? Why would anyone die for a lie? If they knew it was a lie, wouldn't it have been better for them to have renounced it? Yet look at History... the church blossomed (albeit there is corruption)... but in everyone that has been truly saved, their lives have been radically changed. My life has been radically changed... I used to do some really wicked things, but God opened my heart, and I believed in the gospel... my life was changed. God is constantly leading and guiding me... when I sin, He convicts me. God has stopped me from pursuing various young women for a re4lationship. This isn't mere fantasy... it's for real.

Lots of people died over lies from the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: How can you say that though? (And I'll use this with a what if statement)... what if God really did inspire men to write down what He wanted to have written down? Did you know that according to Church history that all of the original Apostles (except John) died gruesome deaths for the sake of Christ? Why would anyone die for a lie? If they knew it was a lie, wouldn't it have been better for them to have renounced it? Yet look at History... the church blossomed (albeit there is corruption)... but in everyone that has been truly saved, their lives have been radically changed. My life has been radically changed... I used to do some really wicked things, but God opened my heart, and I believed in the gospel... my life was changed. God is constantly leading and guiding me... when I sin, He convicts me. God has stopped me from pursuing various young women for a re4lationship. This isn't mere fantasy... it's for real.

I don't think anyone is telling you to personally stop believing but rather be prepared to defend your beliefs if you voice them in the open. I am seriously glad you've found a way to restrain what you perceive as your inherent evil. If you think it was uncontrollable before I would assume it truly was.

You've found the mysteries of the universe - others have found a plot full of holes. Defending ancient religious texts isn't for the faint of heart.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: While true, religions can also do good if used properly. They can 'move mountains', so to speak. They can provide a framework for which to build successful societies, and help direct those who cant 'dance to their own drum' and need to be told what is right and wrong.. Myself i have my own internal moral compass, and dont need to be lead around.

ill definatly agree with that. there are a lot of people who have done 180s because of religion but that had to do with their own personal determination and the guidance of good people around them as well.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Sorry your shift button isn't working for you.

my shift keys work fine. i'm just too lazy to use them.

actually, it's kind of involved. when i was programming in the '80s it was easier to code (and type) in all upper case. that was fine until i started posting on bulletin boards in the '90s, when i learned that it was considered shouting. so i started writing all lower case. i will still occasionally capitalize, for proper nouns or emphasis, but i don't think it impairs clarity. "i" is clearly the singular nominative pronoun. if we're indicating the beginning of a sentence, it would either be the first letter of the document, or follow a period. i've toyed with omitting apostrophes in contractions as well, but it's tricky. some words have similar contractions (wont, cant) so it could be confusing.

i could be a much worse grammar and spelling nazi than i am, but try to reserve such commentary for those occasions when poor spelling or sentence structure makes it hard to understand a person's remarks, or indicates muddled thinking.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 05-27-2012).]

Lay off the Fortran dude!

fortran used it in school, never professionally.
what really finished it for me was that some compilers are case sensitive and some aren't. so, sometimes x = X, but sometimes it doesn't, and it can make debugging a real bear.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 05-28-2012).]