quote Originally posted by lurker: they are welcome to their opinions. however, they are willing to act on those opinions by resort to violence against my rights as a citizen and human being, and against my person. i am unwilling to resort to violence, until provoked by violence. i will exercise my right to speak against them. do i make myself clear?

If you read my post i *clearly* stated that taking action was not acceptable.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: I consider 'concern' and 'fear' and 'logical actions' as being different things. If a bear was running up to me, id not be 'afraid' as i would have actions i could take to mitigate the attack. If a rock was falling on me, i dont think id 'fear' it as not a hell of a lot i could do about it. Losing my job and trying to figure out how to eat, its more of a concern and not 'fear'. Its all subjective i agree. Perhaps I've been thru too much to 'fear'.

I'm talking about the basis for those "feelings"?
Think about the oldest part of your brain, the brainstem, or the "Hindbrain":

"Having evolved hundreds of millions of years ago, the Hindbrain or the Reptillian Brain is the oldest part of the human brain. As you might guess from it's name, it's a piece of brain anatomy that we share with reptiles and is the most primitive. Likewise it's in charge of our primal instincts and most basic functions. Things like the instincts of survival, dominance, mating and the basic functions of respiration, heartbeat all come from this area of the brain."

Not much mention of "emotions".
But "Fear" WOULD fall under "Survival" as a VERY useful tool.
If it is indeed an "emotion", then it would have to be the first.
I would say that fear would always come before acceptence.

EDIT:
Then there is the NEXT oldest part of the brain, The Limbic System:

"The Limbic System sometimes called the "emotional brain" or "Old Mammalian Brain" is the next part of the brain to have evolved in the more primitive mammals about 150 million years ago. This is where our emotions reside, where memory begins and where these two functions combine together to mark behaviours with positive or negative feelings. It's where mostly unconcious value judgements are made. Information going through the Limbic System are filed under "agreeable or disagreeable". It also plays a role in salience (what grabs your attention), spontaneity and creativity."

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You are correct--you don't get it. Public dissent in large numbers throughout history has been the impetus for change in any number of social endeavors, it has overthrown dictators, changed social norms, freed countless nations from colonial rule, got us out of Vietnam, forced changes thru anti-segregation laws, brought down aristocracies in France, and Russia, forced China into a more lax policy on property ownership and a free market, and --well, the list is endless. It works. 2 billion strong, Sitting passively by as a silent majority does not.

You said it right there IMO, "Social norms". I think we differ on the idea that evil/terrorism is the norm of the "2 billion strong".

Again my point being I don't see why the average Muslim would feel any responsibility or kinship to the radicals of the group and therefore IMO have no responsibility to protest against them anymore than any other group.

Most of the 9-11 sickos were from Saudi Arabia, what responsibility do ALL Saudi's have I wonder? I don't suppose these Saudi's were a member of a much smaller group than all other Saudis that most of them don't feel any connection to? Or is it more the religion than the country? nahhhh


Anyways I'm dropping this one unless you have more (not that you shouldn't respond, please do), we've been through it before, we disagree, life goes on. IMO you're mind is like taffy, when things stick....ho boy do they stick

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Anyone who says they don't feel fear is either full of it or completely nuts IMO. Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear. ~Ambrose Redmoon

I have had fear in the past, but i don't fear now.. To me, true fear comes from the unknown, or inability to understand, with no backup plan. I *always* have a backup plan.

you asked this question:

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Why are you right and they are wrong?

to me the answer is obvious. which speaks to the question raised by the original post. because of their demonstrated willingness to use violence, we have every right to respond in kind to al queda, but not so to muslims in general. i don't see much ambiguity here, except for the difficulties of proper target designation.

quote Originally posted by lurker: you asked this question: to me the answer is obvious. which speaks to the question raised by the original post. because of their demonstrated willingness to use violence, we have every right to respond in kind to al queda, but not so to muslims in general. i don't see much ambiguity here, except for the difficulties of proper target designation.

It was rhetorical in reality. You are no more right or wrong than they are in their beliefs.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Yes i did, and you are no more right or wrong then they for speaking.

from their site:
"Every tendency towards degeneracy and subversion, every threat to our racial integrity, every form of organized crime and vice, every element which threatens public terror or chaos must be weeded out and utterly destroyed." which is a pretty way of saying anything or anyone non "aryan". they are advocating violence, and have a history of practicing what they preach.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by lurker: from their site: "Every tendency towards degeneracy and subversion, every threat to our racial integrity, every form of organized crime and vice, every element which threatens public terror or chaos must be weeded out and utterly destroyed." which is a pretty way of saying anything or anyone non "aryan". they are advocating violence, and have a history of practicing what they preach.

And i will repeat myself this one last time then I'm done since i'm tired of talking towards a brick wall:

They have the absolute right to believe and express anything they wish. Their beliefs are no better or worse than anyone else. I don't care who they are or what they believe. Be it the Nazi party or a Catholic priest, or a cult that thinks aliens are here and want to wear fuzzy hats.

If they take action on those beliefs against another person, then their actions are wrong. But they still have the right to *believe*

Oh, and that includes "advocating", as that is expressing themselves and as far as im concerned is fine. Inciting, is a different act.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: talking towards a brick wall:

correct.
i will never. ever. stop speaking out against these people until they herd me into their gas chamber, and if they try i'm going to take some of them with me.

quote Originally posted by lurker: correct. i will never. ever. stop speaking out against these people until they herd me into their gas chamber, and if they try i'm going to take some of them with me.

If you feel they don't have a right to speak, then you have fortified your right as well, and should be first in line.

Hows that for 'advocating' ?


And will ( and have ) fight for another citizens right to speech, even if i disagree with what they are saying.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-02-2012).]

A free-ranging discussion.. but getting real far away from the topic of the OP.

Getting back to the OP, the crux of the matter (for me) is here:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-3.html#p101

Anyone care to line up with (or against) my post?

I feel like it got lost in the shuffle of all the other posts that have come after it.

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: A free-ranging discussion.. but getting real far away from the topic of the OP. Getting back to the OP, the crux of the matter (for me) is here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-3.html#p101 Anyone care to line up with (or against) my post? I feel like it got lost in the shuffle of all the other posts that have come after it.

quote But it's OK for certain PFF posters to tarnish all Muslims as "al-Qaida" or "terrorists" or "would-be terrorists" of whatever particular Muslim stripe, every time a new al-Qaida video or Internet provocation like this emerges?

Well, most are either radicals, or complacent and accepting of those who are radical.

Where i work there were a lot of Muslim contractors. As soon as credit was taken for 9/11, not one said 'oh, this is wrong, this isn't how we believe'. Not one. At that point the entire religion lost ANY credibility as far as I'm concerned. ( and we should have canceled their visas and kicked them out )

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: There's a pattern here: 1) 82-T/A [At Work] posts some proposterous and usually inflammatory claim. 2) Someone insists that he provide some credible substantiation for that claim. 3) 82-T/A [At Work] bobs, weaves, and evades, but never responds to the challenge. 4) The other party insists that 82-T/A [At Work] get back on topic and respond to his original challenge. 5) 82-T/A [At Work] escalates the rhetoric, even more aggressively bobbing, weaving, and evading, but never providing any substantiation for his original assertion. He may also resort to insults and/or offensive language as evasion tactics. Todd, you mav indeed have, as you claim, "read a number of books on arguing," but you have no concept of how to carry on a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you or how to separate fact from unsubstantiated opinion.

I don't know if I should be saddened, or shocked that your life and time means so little to you that you bothered to spend all that time doing this research on Pennocks.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: T O/T is such a strange place. The same conversation happening in so many threads.

I actually see this happening all over every single car forum that I'm on... although, I stay out of these discussions on all other message boards except this one.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: i will repeat myself this one last time then I'm done

hmmm?

quote Originally posted by User00013170: If you feel they don't have a right to speak, then you have fortified your right as well, and should be first in line. Hows that for 'advocating' ? And will ( and have ) fight for another citizens right to speech, even if i disagree with what they are saying.

such a target-rich environment.
by this logic, al-queda has an unrestricted right to advocate attacks on americans.
"fortified" my right? i'm going to assume you meant "forfeited".
but too late, they long ago advocated disenfranchising, then "weeding out and utterly destroying" me, and many, perhaps most americans. and they've amply demonstrated a willingness to act on their intention, so they are already far ahead of me in this "line".

quote Originally posted by lurker: by this logic, al-queda has an unrestricted right to advocate attacks on americans.

*citizens* have the right. I did not comment on rights in other countries.

Ok, i should had said "American citizens".. better?

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: Anyone care to line up with (or against) my post?

i agree with your post.

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: Anyone care to line up with (or against) my post?

I think you are right on an individual level but still think that muslim organizations should be much more outspoken condemning extremist violence.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Looks like the muslims have a new plan to commit acts of large scale terrorism in the US and abroad. Forest Fires. Can you imagine the scale of destruction if even a small number of muslim faithful followed this call to attack? http://wildfiretoday.com/20...ire-arson-in-the-us/

I have news for you. There's enough moronic Americans throwing cigerette butts out the windows while driving causing all type of fires. This past week I've seen at least three fires along side of the hwys. Americans like to use our country as their toilet throwing butts out in the day time and at night. Two weeks ago another moronic American living in apartment decides to leave his cigarette on the ledge. The moron falls to sleep, the butt falls upon some bruishes, and burns down all of the apartments leaving 70 people out on the street. Last Thursday I'm gasing up and the moron inside decides to come outside and fire up one. I'm no less than 25 feet from this idiot, so I give him the evil look. Time and time again I've seen people jumping out of their cars and quickly lighting up with no sense of realizing were standing on gas!

quote Originally posted by lurker: no. what about alleged american al-queda operatives? the klan? the "new black panthers"? people who propose murdering zimmerman? do they have the same "right" to advocate violence?

Why keep asking the same question in different ways, expecting a different answer from me? You wont get a different answer: Yes, they have that right.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-03-2012).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: I have news for you. There's enough moronic Americans throwing cigerette butts out the windows while driving causing all type of fires. This past week I've seen at least three fires along side of the hwys. Americans like to use our country as their toilet throwing butts out in the day time and at night.

Not all smokers toss them out the window. But yes, its a problem with those that do..

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Not all smokers toss them out the window. But yes, its a problem with those that do..

Not all Muslims follow Al-Quaeda. But yes, it's a problem with those that do..

I am amused by the fools crying about not hearing "the good" muslims condemning the bad ones. just what is it you expect them to do? call you on the phone? buy some advertising time on whatever TV time you watch? being it isnt very exciting for news to cover, they (CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC) are not gonna do it for you. if you want to hear it - you actually have to talk to them. they are everywhere. and NOT blowing stuff up (or burning stuff). I hear plenty of christians calling to "nuke 'em", reffering to the middle east as a whole. yes, very nice. much nicer than starting a forest fire, eh? have yet to hear a christain comdemn those who say such things. I am sure someone will step forth now - but ONLY after mentioning this.

threads like this are endlessly ignorant. get the "us vs them" blowhards all worked up. its the blowhards that are the problem. the christian blowhards & the muslim blowhards. THEY are the problem. not that they are christian or muslim - but that they are loudmouth fools. and they will try and bait you into hatred.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: He SHOULD have said... "Radical Islamists..." not just Al Qaeda.

They are all the same. Drop a picture of muhomid in a tax payer funded jar of urin and see what the religion of piece does?
If they say they are not the same, it only proves they are, it starts with the lie that they are not the same. Some just step up to the plate and swing, others just pat them on the back, and others are to "politically correct" to say or do anything out loud, but in their heart they agree with mohomid that infedels deserve death.

Absolutely. Law-abiding Muslims in the U.S. and Canada should prove their decency by pouring into the streets in mass protest every time that some al-Qaida yahoo in Yemen posts a new f*rt on the Internet.

Otherwise, how else can you trust them?

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: Absolutely. Law-abiding Muslims in the U.S. and Canada should prove their decency by pouring into the streets in mass protest every time that some al-Qaida yahoo in Yemen posts a new f*rt on the Internet. Otherwise, how else can you trust them?

They are patting them on the back, how else could you xplane it? They ARE the same, the quiet ones ARE just as guilty as the ones doing the killing.

Do you think that the Muslims with blood on their hands in Afghanistan (just to pick one country) give a flying f*ck about what law-abiding Muslims in the U.S. and Canada have to say?

But you don't see that kind of s**t (Muslim violence) being perpetrated by Muslims in the U.S. and Canada--with certain newsworthy exceptions of course--but these people and incidents are the exceptions--not the general regime of Muslim violence that happens day in and day out (like in Afghanistan).

Of course there is the problem of funding for terrorism. Do Muslims in the U.S. and Canada send money that ultimately supports Muslim violence overseas? I'm sure there is some of that--but how much? And are these funders of terrorism just unwitting dupes and not badly-intentioned? I've read that most of the money that supports the Taliban originates in the Gulf states like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: They are patting them on the back, how else could you xplane it? They ARE the same, the quiet ones ARE just as guilty as the ones doing the killing.

If that is true, then the same goes for the congragations of the preists that rape young boys.

You cannot hold individuals responsable for the actions of other individuals just becouse they both believe in the same God.

The hardline members here have preached ENDLESSLY about PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY.
But they don't seem to apply it here.
Why is that?

Why should a peacefull "Muslim" in the U.S. feel ANY responsabilty for a terrorest "Muslims" actions half a world away?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-03-2012).]

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: Of course there is the problem of funding for terrorism. Do Muslims in the U.S. and Canada send money that ultimately supports Muslim violence overseas? I'm sure there is some of that--but how much? And are these funders of terrorism just unwitting dupes and not badly-intentioned? I've read that most of the money that supports the Taliban originates in the Gulf states like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

Indeed, and we all generously fund those regimes with our insatiable appetite for oil.

No, no, it's not time yet for this most excellent thread to die!

Here are some "halftime highlights":

Open Bigotry

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094644.html#p10
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/094688.html#p0
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p17
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p145


By The Numbers

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p21


Holier Than Thou

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p30


Spin And Deflect

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/094688-2.html#p56


Someone on PFF "gets it"

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p144


Hoisted On His Own Petard

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p142


and last, but not least--my personal favorite:

Carefully Veiled Bigotry

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-3.html#p101

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: No, no, it's not time yet for this most excellent thread to die! Here are some "halftime highlights": Open Bigotry https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094644.html#p10 https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/094688.html#p0 https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p17 https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p145 By The Numbers https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p21 Holier Than Thou https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/094688.html#p30 Spin And Deflect https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/094688-2.html#p56 Someone on PFF "gets it" https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p144 Hoisted On His Own Petard https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p142 and last, but not least--my personal favorite: Carefully Veiled Bigotry https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-3.html#p101

Seriously??? You seriously couldn't find a link to throw me in there too?

Honestly... I feel like maybe you just don't care!!!


Heheh...

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Not all smokers toss them out the window. But yes, its a problem with those that do..

Seriously, I have not seen a smoker to this day not use the earth as their personal toilet either by;

1. Throwing lit butts out the window.
2. Dumping them onto the sidewalks while walking, and/or
3. Empty the entire car ash tray in the parking lot.
4. The idiot who thinks he/her is cool by sticking their arm outside the car at a light and flicks the ash.

Look around and you'll see butts everywhere (beach, downtown, in your yard) for they are there because of morons and have been doing it for decades. Is it any wonder why there are fires and it's been happening long before terrorist came along.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Seriously??? You seriously couldn't find a link to throw me in there too?

Am I in there?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If that is true, then the same goes for the congragations of the preists that rape young boys.

IF it were true, then you are correct. I think molsters shoud be strung up. This is not the case here.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You cannot hold individuals responsable for the actions of other individuals just becouse they both believe in the same God.

YES you can, IF that god teaches them to do the crimes. They do what they are told to do. THAT makes them guilty.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: The hardline members here have preached ENDLESSLY about PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY. But they don't seem to apply it here. Why is that?

need examples, otherwise I have no change of opinion.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Why should a peacefull "Muslim" in the U.S. feel ANY responsabilty for a terrorest "Muslims" actions half a world away?

Again, they do what the god they belive in tells them to do. muhamid tells them that infidels must die. IF they do not belive muhomid then they they are not muslim.
Do not make the mistake of inturpiting islam for them. They know better than you what to do to infidels.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Again, they do what the god they belive in tells them to do.

Yeah Muslims do what their God "tells them to do", Christians ignore what their God "tells them to do". Either way, I recommend thinking for themselves.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Yeah Muslims do what their God "tells them to do", Christians ignore what their God "tells them to do". Either way, I recommend thinking for themselves.

Just words.

I think that I'm nearly always in agreement with what you say, but it would benefit Catholics if they didn't remain silent and the same thing goes for Muslims. To many people their silence denotes acceptance or agreement. If I were a catholic I would be protesting loudly so that others wouldn't think that I believe child rape by priests is ok

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If that is true, then the same goes for the congragations of the preists that rape young boys. You cannot hold individuals responsable for the actions of other individuals just becouse they both believe in the same God. The hardline members here have preached ENDLESSLY about PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY. But they don't seem to apply it here. Why is that? Why should a peacefull "Muslim" in the U.S. feel ANY responsabilty for a terrorest "Muslims" actions half a world away?