Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Again, they do what the god they belive in tells them to do. muhamid tells them that infidels must die. IF they do not belive muhomid then they they are not muslim. Do not make the mistake of inturpiting islam for them. They know better than you what to do to infidels.
The Muslim world is divided between those that think like that--the Islamic radicals--and those that think otherwise--the moderate Muslims.
All that you are doing here is slandering the moderate Muslims.
Can you even name any Muslims, aside from the late Osama bin Laden and the by now centuries late Mohammed?
Here are some excerpts from a webpage that is maintained by a certain-sized group of Muslims in the U.S.: The Cordoba Initiative.
These are the people that you are slandering with your latest PFF posts on this topic.
Now we can argue about how relevant these "Cordoba" Muslims are. We can argue about how many or few there are. We can argue about whether they are making any progress in their stated goals--or not.
But do you really want to keep on slandering these people in what I can only describe as your completely uninformed fashion?
Compared to you, loafer87GT is relatively open-minded about Muslims--and when it comes to posting uninformed bigotry on PFF, loafer87GT is certainly no slouch!
Founded in 2004, the Cordoba Initiative is a multi-national, multi-faith organization dedicated to improving understanding and building trust among people of all cultures and religions.
The name Cordoba was chosen to symbolize the time in history when Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in peace and harmony and created a prosperous center of intellectual, spiritual, cultural and commercial life in the city of Cordoba in Southern Spain.
Cordoba Initiative is often asked about extremist interpretations of Islam, the conflict between the secular and religious traditions in the Muslim world, the lack of young Muslim leaders speaking out against violence and the role of women in modern Islam. The Cordoba Initiative tackles these and other tough issues in a practical way in order to break the cycle of fear, misunderstanding and mistrust that fuels extremism and radicalism around the world.
quote
The Cordoba Initiative is the vision of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Imam Feisal brings together leaders across the Muslim-West divide to speak out for innovative, proactive, and positive solutions to shared challenges. In this capacity, Cordoba Initiative can provide novel solutions to those areas where conflict between Islamic and Western communities undermine local and global security.
In 1997, he also co- founded the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA); the first Muslim organization committed to building bridges between Muslims and the American public by elevating the discourse on Islam through educational outreach, interfaith collaboration, culture and arts.
Background: Born of Egyptian parentage and educated in England, Egypt, and Malaysia, Imam Feisal holds a Bachelor of Science in Physics from Columbia University in New York and a Master of Science in Plasma Physics from Stevens Institute of Technology in New Jersey.
Published Work: What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America (HarperCollins, 2005); Islam: A Sacred Law (Threshold Books, 2000); Islam: A Search for Meaning (Mazda Publishers,1996); “What is Islamic Law?” Mercer Law Review (2006); and “Justification & Theory of Sharia Law: How the American Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and Constitution are Consistent with Islamic Jurisprudence” University of St. Thomas Law (2010).
Imam Feisal is also the author of the forthcoming book Moving the Mountain: Beyond Ground Zero to a New Vision of Islam in America (Free Press)
So there you have it.
It sounds like you are too totally locked into your Muslim "hatefest" to consider changing the direction of your posts on this topic in any way, but it may be that some other posters (besides myself) will have something to say in reaction to this post.
Peace.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-04-2012).]
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02:13 AM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10648 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
If I were a catholic I would be protesting loudly so that others wouldn't think that I believe child rape by priests is ok
I am not catholic, my coment is only common sence. FIRST demand an investigation into the claims of molestation. DO NOT assume the claims are true. Make decisions on the findings. IF there are molsters in the church, THEN protest and demand justice. I have my opinions on the matter, but the truth may not be all out yet?
The Muslim world is divided between those that think like that--the Islamic radicals--and those that think otherwise--the moderate Muslims.
All that you are doing here is slandering the moderate Muslims.
You mean the ones that believe their religion and those that don't? Its pretty clear that their religion does not support the existence of anyone else. So if you are one, by default you embrace its core concepts. If you don't embrace it, you really aren't Muslim and are something else.
To be fair, throughout history most other religions have also gone thru this same 'eradicate the unbeliever' phase, but they outgrew it. These morons have yet to do that..
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09:01 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 23101 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I think that I'm nearly always in agreement with what you say, but it would benefit Catholics if they didn't remain silent and the same thing goes for Muslims. To many people their silence denotes acceptance or agreement. If I were a catholic I would be protesting loudly so that others wouldn't think that I believe child rape by priests is ok
They are protesting loudly... support in the Catholic church in the United States has dropped considerably, and has actually driven many people to non-denominational churches like Calvary Chapel, etc...
I know that just before I left Florida... the Archdiocese of Miami had to close three Catholic churches... two of which had been around since the 60s (which is a long time for South Florida).
Believe me... there's a major backlash. The new Catholic Pope has also apologized many times in the past couple of years, and vowed to make major changes.
When the declared leader of the entire religion apologizes numerous times and promises to make major changes and hold those responsible... accountable... I think it's pretty remarkable.
But we're talking Apples to Oranges here... we're comparing... maybe... what... ~400 possibly abuse cases?
Some of which were thrown out and the priest sued for damages / libel because they were false.
But in any case, you're comparing maybe... let's say even 1000 (which the number reported isn't even half that)... still bad, but compared to the millions who have actually DIED at the hands of radical Islam, in the name of Islam?
Really big difference... I don't even know why you would compare it?
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-04-2012).]
But in any case, you're comparing maybe... let's say even 1000 (which the number reported isn't even half that)... still bad, but compared to the millions who have actually DIED at the hands of radical Islam, in the name of Islam?
Plus its not 'systemic' with the Catholics, and those priests are operating "out of bounds" when they do things like this. With Islam and the Muslims, its a core belief..
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10:09 AM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by User00013170: You mean the ones that believe their religion and those that don't? Its pretty clear that their religion does not support the existence of anyone else. So if you are one, by default you embrace its core concepts. If you don't embrace it, you really aren't Muslim and are something else.
To be fair, throughout history most other religions have also gone thru this same 'eradicate the unbeliever' phase, but they outgrew it. These morons have yet to do that..
No--you can't fairly say that their religion (islam) excludes the possibility of peacefully co-existing with other religions.
Islam---and I just look on it as an outsider, gleaning what I can from the Internet and those mainstream news channels that you so vigorously disdain--is evolving. Did you just read the top of my previous post, or did you go all the way through it?
Where is Islam evolving? In the United States, in particular. You have groups of Muslims like the Cordoba Initiative that are focused on peacefully coexisting with other religions in this post 9-11 world that we all live in. There are mosques in the United States that are involved in interfaith programs of cooperation and peace with neighboring churches---perhaps even with Jewish synagogues--and with a little effort I am sure that I could dig up some mainstream news reports to better illustrate what I am talking about.
Islam is also evolving into a more modern, peaceful and tolerant religion in Austria, according to this new report from the BBC News (which you probably despise).
Is Islam evolving for the better, towards modernity and tolerance, in other countries and especially in countries where Muslims are the overwhelming majority of the population, like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Kuwait, etc.?
I think that there is a struggle going on in every one of these countries, pitting moderate Muslims who want to modernize and become more tolerant of other religions, against Islamic conservatives and radicals who want to stay frozen in time or evolve backwards towards even greater intolerance and oppression. In some countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria) the moderates are having a very hard time, perhaps even losing. In other Muslim-majority countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait) the moderate Muslims are making some real progress--not in terms of letting other religions into their countries in any significant way, but at least in terms of maintaining peaceful international relations and reducing the funding that supports international Islamic terrorism. Again, I could dig up some news stories about this, but I can't give you links right off the top of my head.
I could go on in this vein, but if you can't see some truth in what I already said here, you probably aren't going to be interested in anything else that I could dig up for you to substantiate my thesis that Islam is evolving for the better--at least in some parts of the world.
No--you can't fairly say that their religion (islam) excludes the possibility of peacefully co-existing with other religions.
Um, all non believers are mandated to be eradicated, so yes, i can say there is no co-existence. If they change, perhaps, but then its a different religion and a totally different discussion. I also wont hold my breath on them EVER becoming 'tolerant'.
I will also go so far to say that currently if any appear to be 'tolerant' its a scam. They aren't, and never will be.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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10:31 AM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by User00013170: To be fair, throughout history most other religions have also gone thru this same 'eradicate the unbeliever' phase, but they outgrew it. These morons have yet to do that..
I agree with this in part. The more aggressive and evangelizing religions do go though this phase. I think that the Christian religion was dragged out of their phase by Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries and put in the more civilized and diminished place it is now.
I think it's wrong and dangerous to classify all Muslims as murderous radicals or sympathizers. An Us vs. Them mentality will not move us forward. What other alternative is there, anyways? Exterminate 1.5 billion Muslims?
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What other alternative is there, anyways? Exterminate 1.5 billion Muslims?
If that is what it takes, yes. I refuse to 'get along' or 'compromise' with people that want me dead out of principle, and will act on it.. You don't make deals with that sort of person as its only a ruse to catch you off guard.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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10:38 AM
PFF
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yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
If that is what it takes, yes. I refuse to 'get along' or 'compromise' with people that want me dead out of principle, and will act on it.. You don't make deals with that sort of person as its only a ruse to catch you off guard.
I think you and people who think like you are a) wrong and b) dangerous. Are you really aware of what you are saying?
I think you and people who think like you are a) wrong and b) dangerous. Are you really aware of what you are saying?
Yes i am. If there is a choice between me and a person ( or group ) that *intends* to do me harm. I pick me, and to hell with them.
Note i not saying it's due to their belief that they are better/etc, which they can have all they want, but instead its due to their active attempts to eradicate non believers.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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11:02 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by User00013170: Um, all non believers are mandated to be eradicated, so yes, i can say there is no co-existence. If they change, perhaps, but then its a different religion and a totally different discussion. I also wont hold my breath on them EVER becoming 'tolerant'.
I will also go so far to say that currently if any appear to be 'tolerant' its a scam. They aren't, and never will be.
"All non-believers are to be eradicated." So you are taking the entire Koran, from first page to last page, and interpreting it literally. As if every line in the Koran were to be regarded as equally important as every other line; as if there were no distancing of oneself from the text, no room for thinking "Yes the Koran says that on this particular page" but "No, we're not really going to do exactly that."
I of course don't know what faith (if any) you profess, but if it's Christianity and you take even the New Testament (leave aside the Old Testament) literally, from front page to back, and think that every sentence is as important or valid as every other sentence, and every Biblical injunction has to be carried out literally, word for word, then you would be a Christian fundamentalist. Like that fruitcake Terry Jones who wanted to (and eventually did) burn the Koran. And I probably wouldn't enjoy "hanging out" with you very much. Unlike an Islamic fundamentalist (which to me is the same as an Islamic radical), you might not kill me, but I wouldn't look to you (as a Christian fundamentalist) for any guidance or example of how to live.
I think that one can be a Muslim and not take the entire Koran literally, word for word, from front page to back.
That's what I mean when I say "moderate Muslim".
And you say "that's not a Muslim anymore, but something else."
Maybe we've come to an impasse in our discussion here, Nurb. A dead end, where no further agreement is possible.
I do appreciate the back and forth between us (up to this point). There are other PFF posters who start something (like the OP on this thread) but don't come back to argue and expand on their points. I'm glad that you seem to be not one of them.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-04-2012).]
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11:12 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I agree with this in part. The more aggressive and evangelizing religions do go though this phase. I think that the Christian religion was dragged out of their phase by Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries and put in the more civilized and diminished place it is now.
Hmm. Enlightenment? You can tell a whole lot from any type of religion by the fruitage it produces. If the so-called Christians claim they are followers of Christ then what is the fruitage they are producing? I thought the greatest command is too, "Love thy neighbor as thy self? The United States of American is mainly made of so-called Christians, but by the bad examples seen in the news it appears to be a bumper crop of bad fruits? What happened to the "Sermon on the Mount"? Or could it be said that those who claim to be followers aren't really true followers of Christ and are fakes? I mean come on. I never heard of Jesus Christ running around killing people in his name.
How about the so-called Muslims that claim to be followers of their Holy books. What type of crop have they produced? In all of the countries that are Muslims is there peace among them? Are they too just like the so-called Christians who claim to be followers are fakes too?
Yes i am. If there is a choice between me and a person ( or group ) that *intends* to do me harm. I pick me, and to hell with them.
Note i not saying it's due to their belief that they are better/etc, which they can have all they want, but instead its due to their active attempts to eradicate non believers.
Nurb...wow, guy.
Are you really suggesting that 1.5 billion people die because of the actions of a relative few? Do you sincerely think the whole of the Muslim world is waiting for you to take a nap so we can tiptoe over and smother you with a pillow? I respectfully draw your attention to the fact that vastly more Muslims are killed by other Muslims than Christians killed by Muslims....about 1000-to-1 is a good estimate. In some nations, the Islamic community has much more to fear from their own than you ever will. Those Muslims who had the wherewithal to do so came to this country to avoid such risks....a security concept severely undercut by some of the opinions expressed in this thread, among other places....but most would rather face American racism than a car bomb any day.
I suspect all....scratch that.....SOME of your like-minded supporters will cry "Hell, Yeah....kill 'em all!" to those questions but I'd then have to ask....
Who ARE the savages really?
Also inferring all Al-Qaeda are Muslims therefore all Muslims are Al-Qaeda sympathizers is akin to saying all KKK members are White therefore all Whites are charter members of the KKK.....an absolutely ridiculous assumption and blanket indictment.
Okay....I'll leave you guys to continue your hate-fest.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 07-04-2012).]
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11:29 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Also inferring all Al-Qaeda are Muslims therefore all Muslims are Al-Qaeda sympathizers is akin to saying all KKK members are White therefore all Whites are charter members of the KKK.....an absolutely ridiculous assumption and blanket indictment.
Okay....I'll leave you guys to continue your hate-fest.
I hope the World don't think ALL of us are like that. I choose think over hate.
"All non-believers are to be eradicated." So you are taking the entire Koran, from first page to last page, and interpreting it literally.
It is the teaching of their god, so yes i take it literally. If its to be 'interpreted by man' then its' not a 'guidance from god' and just a bunch of made up nonsense to be dismissed as false. ( this applies to any religion )
It is the teaching of their god, so yes i take it literally. If its to be 'interpreted by man' then its' not a 'guidance from god' and just a bunch of made up nonsense to be dismissed as false. ( this applies to any religion )
One is to prevent, the other is to create. I say the ones preventing are not savage.
As far as the rest, if they are complacent, they are part of the problem. Silence about outrageous acts speaks volumes. ( which goes for any subject, not just the one that the thread is talking about )
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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11:48 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Also inferring all Al-Qaeda are Muslims therefore all Muslims are Al-Qaeda sympathizers is akin to saying all KKK members are White therefore all Whites are charter members of the KKK.....an absolutely ridiculous assumption and blanket indictment.
The difference i see is that many whites openly condemn the actions of the KKK.
(oh, and being Muslim is a choice, being white isn't )
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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11:55 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Men were moved by God's spirit to write the various books of the Bible which are 66 in total. However, the writers were inspired by God. (1 Tim 3:16). The Bible is meant for all of mankind regardless of race (Acts 10:34).
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11:58 AM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by User00013170: One is to prevent, the other is to create. I say the ones preventing are not savage.
As far as the rest, if they are complacent, they are part of the problem. Silence about outrageous acts speaks volumes. ( which goes for any subject, not just the one that the thread is talking about )
So you are talking about the silence of the Muslim majority? Silence in regards to outrageous acts carried out by Islamic extremists like al-Qaida?
Is it silence--or is it that you are not listening? Are there peaceful, tolerant Muslims holding up signs that you do not see because you are not looking?
Here's the most important post in this discussion, up to this point--it's from Pyrthian: Did you read it? Do you not agree?
So you are talking about the silence of the Muslim majority? Silence in regards to outrageous acts carried out by Islamic extremists like al-Qaida?
Is it silence--or is it that you are not listening? Are there peaceful, tolerant Muslims holding up signs that you do not see because you are not looking?
Here's the most important post in this discussion, up to this point--it's from Pyrthian: Did you read it? Do you not agree?
If that is what it takes, yes. I refuse to 'get along' or 'compromise' with people that want me dead out of principle, and will act on it.. You don't make deals with that sort of person as its only a ruse to catch you off guard.
I wonder how many Muslims would see your words and think the exact same thing about Americans. I've said it before and will again, you DON'T speak for us, and you're an embarrassment to many of us. Your views are EXACTLY the same as what you're accusing them of.
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12:18 PM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
Tell that to the sufferers of the Holy Wars, Spanish Inquisition, Native Americans, etc, etc, etc
Native Americans fought back. The Jews fought back in WWI the best they could, the 'witches' in Salem protested. Yes, many of these groups lost in the end but they were not complacent in the process.
When 9/11 happened i worked with many ( several floors of the building actually ) Muslims, and not one spoke up. Not one was in the middle of a 'holy war' here in town and could have easily and safely said 'that was wrong'. None did. I don't expect them to go on a personal crusade or something, but silence? Nope, i don't buy it.
And sure, there are always exceptions as nothing is 100%, but when the vast majority do not speak up to condemn actions that THEIR CHOSEN RELIGION REQUIRES, it tells me they support the actions.
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12:30 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by User00013170: I disagree they are out there in any significant number.
I think that is very debatable.
Define "number". Are you talking about a percentage of Muslims worldwide, or would you be interested in, say, just a percentage of the Muslims that are residing in the United States? It would seem to me that it's the Muslims that are here in the U.S. that would be of most interest (or concern) to you.
Either way, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I don't have numbers for you.
That was a poll taken of Muslims in five Muslim-dominated countries (including Pakistan) about their confidence (or lack thereof) that al-Qaida would do "the right thing".
Do you not make anything positive and significant of these poll numbers?
I already know--you don't--it's just a rhetorical question.
We'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I think the problem is more in your perceptions of reality than the reality itself.
That must have been a memorable experience, when 9-11 went down, and you were surrounded by all those Muslim contractors.
I have no experience like that--I wasn't around any Muslims when 9-11 went down.
Perhaps you could post more about what happened at that time, as you personally experienced it. What was it like for you, as far as these Muslim contractors and their reaction(s)? How in particular did they react to the events of 9-11? How did they make you feel uncomfortable?
Either way, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I don't have numbers for you. Perhaps you could post more about what happened at that time, as you personally experienced it. What was it like for you, as far as these Muslim contractors and their reaction(s)? How in particular did they react to the events of 9-11? How did they make you feel uncomfortable?
Sometimes that's the best thing, just agree to disagree
The co-workers ( contractors, H1-B style due to skill sets ) didn't make me feel 'uncomfortable', and no i wasn't looking at them funny wondering if they were going to blow up our building. On that morning soon after the first tower was hit and before we knew what was really happening they almost universally stopped talking in English and left the building. ( I got to the parking garage as the first building was hit.. when i got the office they were already leaving ) They also avoided most all the Americans for a few days. While an understandable reaction to avoid any possible retaliation it did make them look suspicious, but again that didn't bother me. What did bother me is that even after things 'cooled' down, not one ever made a statement that it was bad. They just avoided the topic if it ever came up ( which it did, due to who i work for ) and continued to mostly avoid speaking in English in the halls or elevators.
"A simple, that was a terrible thing that happened and was wrong to do" would have sufficed for me, and most others that i work with.
And no, i wasn't working at the pentagon, but we were at risk due to the unknown factor at first and instigated a lock down ... it was NOT a fun day.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-04-2012).]
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01:00 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 23101 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Perhaps you could post more about what happened at that time, as you personally experienced it. What was it like for you, as far as these Muslim contractors and their reaction(s)? How in particular did they react to the events of 9-11? How did they make you feel uncomfortable?
I have had in the past, before and after 9/11, Muslim friends... but they were all American. However, I remember after 9/11, when I received calls from my Dutch relatives... one of them is a school teacher... (what would be comparable to elementary school), and at least half of her kids are Muslim... not to be confused with Moroccan descendents (some of my family is Moroccan that converted to Christianity a LONG time ago). Anyway... these school kids, many of them from Iraq, Syria, etc... they were laughing, screaming with pleasure... when there was an announcement that the United States had been attacked. This is what my cousin told me that she experienced with her class (a little more than half of which is Muslim). They were PLEASED by the fact that America had been attacked... very pleased.
Todd
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04:16 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
OK. I don't doubt it. But I don't think that this contradicts anything that I have ever posted on this forum.
I'm talking about the situation right now, today. Especially in the United States.
Not too long ago, when the Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan, were burning Terry Jones in effigy, they were also burning Osama bin Laden in effigy at the same time. I posted that here when it happened.
Sounds like progress to me.
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04:27 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12351 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
sorry it took so long to reply, reality intervenes.
freedom of speech has limits, whether based on the BOR or universal human rights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech "the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, as with libel, slander, obscenity and incitement to commit a crime."
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf the Court has decided that the First 'Amendment provides no protection to obscenity, child pornography, or speech that constitutes "advocacy of the use of force or of law violation... where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".'
http://www.freedomforum.org...itsfreedomspeech.htm 'The First Amendment does not protect statements that are uttered to provoke violence or incite illegal action. Justice Holmes, speaking for the unanimous Supreme Court, stated, “The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.”
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Originally posted by User00013170: You wont get a different answer: Yes, they have that right.
i trust this means that you will similarly support my right to have and express my opinions?
i trust this means that you will similarly support my right to have and express my opinions?
Have and express your beliefs and options, of course i support it. Punch someone in the nose over your beliefs, no.
I removed the legal mumbo jumbo as it doesn't apply to my statements above. I was speaking only of my personal feelings on the matter of speech, not what some court decides.
I hope you are right, but it will take a lot more than that to convince me that 1000's of years of hard core bread in fanaticism will just go up in smoke one afternoon..
and yes its just as bad, however few 'christian based' religions now go out and try to eradicate non-believers.
