Hmmm, I was thinking; If someone wanted to "turn a spark to a flame", go start lots of forest fires all over, send letters claiming responsability in the name of Allah, then sit back and let vigilante justice do it's thing. Would be a powerfull reminder of exactly why we MUST ALWAYS go by "The Rule Of Law".
Hmmm, I was thinking; If someone wanted to "turn a spark to a flame", go start lots of forest fires all over, send letters claiming responsability in the name of Allah, then sit back and let vigilante justice do it's thing. Would be a powerfull reminder of exactly why we MUST ALWAYS go by "The Rule Of Law".
They would claim responsibility if they could anyway.
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10:50 PM
Jul 5th, 2012
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10648 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by rinselberg: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Again, they do what the god they belive in tells them to do. muhamid tells them that infidels must die. IF they do not belive muhomid then they they are not muslim. Do not make the mistake of inturpiting islam for them. They know better than you what to do to infidels.
The Muslim world is divided between those that think like that--the Islamic radicals--and those that think otherwise--the moderate Muslims.
All that you are doing here is slandering the moderate Muslims.
Can you even name any Muslims, aside from the late Osama bin Laden and the by now centuries late Mohammed?
Here are some excerpts from a webpage that is maintained by a certain-sized group of Muslims in the U.S.: The Cordoba Initiative.
These are the people that you are slandering with your latest PFF posts on this topic.
Now we can argue about how relevant these "Cordoba" Muslims are. We can argue about how many or few there are. We can argue about whether they are making any progress in their stated goals--or not.
But do you really want to keep on slandering these people in what I can only describe as your completely uninformed fashion?
Compared to you, loafer87GT is relatively open-minded about Muslims--and when it comes to posting uninformed bigotry on PFF, loafer87GT is certainly no slouch!
Founded in 2004, the Cordoba Initiative is a multi-national, multi-faith organization dedicated to improving understanding and building trust among people of all cultures and religions.
The name Cordoba was chosen to symbolize the time in history when Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in peace and harmony and created a prosperous center of intellectual, spiritual, cultural and commercial life in the city of Cordoba in Southern Spain.
Cordoba Initiative is often asked about extremist interpretations of Islam, the conflict between the secular and religious traditions in the Muslim world, the lack of young Muslim leaders speaking out against violence and the role of women in modern Islam. The Cordoba Initiative tackles these and other tough issues in a practical way in order to break the cycle of fear, misunderstanding and mistrust that fuels extremism and radicalism around the world.
quote
The Cordoba Initiative is the vision of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Imam Feisal brings together leaders across the Muslim-West divide to speak out for innovative, proactive, and positive solutions to shared challenges. In this capacity, Cordoba Initiative can provide novel solutions to those areas where conflict between Islamic and Western communities undermine local and global security.
In 1997, he also co- founded the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA); the first Muslim organization committed to building bridges between Muslims and the American public by elevating the discourse on Islam through educational outreach, interfaith collaboration, culture and arts.
Background: Born of Egyptian parentage and educated in England, Egypt, and Malaysia, Imam Feisal holds a Bachelor of Science in Physics from Columbia University in New York and a Master of Science in Plasma Physics from Stevens Institute of Technology in New Jersey.
Published Work: What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America (HarperCollins, 2005); Islam: A Sacred Law (Threshold Books, 2000); Islam: A Search for Meaning (Mazda Publishers,1996); “What is Islamic Law?” Mercer Law Review (2006); and “Justification & Theory of Sharia Law: How the American Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and Constitution are Consistent with Islamic Jurisprudence” University of St. Thomas Law (2010).
Imam Feisal is also the author of the forthcoming book Moving the Mountain: Beyond Ground Zero to a New Vision of Islam in America (Free Press)
So there you have it.
It sounds like you are too totally locked into your Muslim "hatefest" to consider changing the direction of your posts on this topic in any way, but it may be that some other posters (besides myself) will have something to say in reaction to this post.
Peace. [/QUOTE]
Now that you have vented, lets just talk about the truth. They are ALL the same, IF they follow mohomid. He tought that ALL infedels must die. That is EVERYONE that does not follow his teachings. The ONLY "hate" in this response is from mohomid's own teachings, NOT me or mine.
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05:11 AM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
I hope that this didn't just slide by without being noticed:
quote
Nairobi - Kenyan clerics across the religious divide say they will not allow sectarian violence to erupt following attacks on churches over the weekend that killed at least 15 people.
The Inter-Religious Council of Kenya said on Tuesday that Muslims will form vigilante groups alongside Christians to guard churches in Kenya's North Eastern Province, where the latest attacks occurred.
Adan Wachu, secretary general of the Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims and the chairman of Inter-Religious Council, said the weekend attacks, which are being blamed on an al-Qaeda-linked militant group from Somalia, al-Shabaab, are meant to trigger sectarian violence between Christians and Muslims.
Wachu says clerics will actively preach against retaliation to prevent violence from spreading in Kenya like it has in Nigeria, where attacks by a Muslim sect has ignited a spiral of violence.
. . . .
quote
Originally posted by User00013170: I hope you are right, but it will take a lot more than that to convince me that 1000's of years of hard core bread in fanaticism will just go up in smoke one afternoon..
We're talking about more than just one afternoon not too long ago when Muslims in Michigan burned Osama bin Laden in effigy.
Considerably more.
Thanks to lurker who provided the link to this report.
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05:51 AM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Now that you have vented, lets just talk about the truth. They are ALL the same, IF they follow mohomid. He tought that ALL infedels must die. That is EVERYONE that does not follow his teachings. The ONLY "hate" in this response is from mohomid's own teachings, NOT me or mine.
Did Mohammed say that all infidels must die? Can you show me the chapter and verse?
But even then, I'm not so exacting as you. If they follow most of Mohammed's teachings, and leave out that one part, I'm good with it. They're "mostly Muslims". And if they want to just call themselves "Muslims", that's OK with me.
Maybe you are right.
You know what I would do, if I were in your shoes and knew I was right?
I would keep it a secret to myself, and let the world go along its merry but not 100% right way.
I'm just hoping there's more people around like me than like you.
Peace.
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06:31 AM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10648 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
Did Mohammed say that all infidels must die? Can you show me the chapter and verse?
But even then, ......... If they follow most of Mohammed's teachings, and leave out that one part, I'm good with it. They're "mostly Muslims". And if they want to just call themselves "Muslims", that's OK with me.
I'm just hoping there's more people around like me than like you.
Peace.
So, why should anyone answere your questions if you dont care to here the answere? You will just belive what you want anyway. You will just keep inturpiting there beliefs for them dispite providing the answeres you ask for.
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11:05 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Christians called to hang negros from trees. but, what do you expect from them idiotic religions like Islam & Christians - they worship that same fool who flooded the earth and that Adam & Eve BS....no wonder they are so violent.
kuku for cocoa puffs.....
couldnt just stay jews.....had to try their own new-fangled flavors of idiocy.....
But even then, I'm not so exacting as you. If they follow most of Mohammed's teachings, and leave out that one part, I'm good with it. They're "mostly Muslims". And if they want to just call themselves "Muslims", that's OK with me.
Ah so its ok to pick and choose from what your all powerful and all knowing god says? heh.
( and yes i know most religions do this.. pinnacle of hypocrisy if you ask me )
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-05-2012).]
Well it's always scared me to think that our leaders believe they have access to an invisible being and that they can get advice from him. I'm agnostic, so I don't know if this invisible being is real or not, but even if he is real there will be people who claim to be in direct contact through prayer and they will tell you whatever they need to in order to facilitate their agenda, and the suckers will fall hook line and sinker.
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07:34 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by dratts: Well it's always scared me to think that our leaders believe they have access to an invisible being and that they can get advice from him. I'm agnostic, so I don't know if this invisible being is real or not, but even if he is real there will be people who claim to be in direct contact through prayer and they will tell you whatever they need to in order to facilitate their agenda, and the suckers will fall hook line and sinker.
So far we haven't had a president who is an avowed atheist. (Am I wrong?)
I don't perceive that our presidents expect us to believe that they are getting advice directly from God, on a momentary basis or in direct answer to prayer.
I think that our presidents expect us to believe that they are guided in all of their actions and decision-making by their knowledge of the principles of God as defined and revealed through their general religious practices--reading scripture, attending church (I would say "or synagogue or mosque" but that hasn't happened yet) and listening to the sermons and discussing them afterwards with other members of the congregration and whatever else would fall under the general practice of religion.
I'm not going to comment on our other representatives and appointees--just the presidents.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-05-2012).]
I think that our presidents expect us to believe that they are guided in all of their actions and decision-making by their knowledge of the principles of God as defined and revealed through their general religious practices--reading scripture, attending church (I would say "or synagogue or mosque" but that hasn't happened yet) and listening to the sermons and discussing them afterwards with other members of the congregration and whatever else would fall under the general practice of religion.
Id prefer a man that could think on his own with his own internal moral compass, and not require some 'entity' to tell him what is right or wrong..
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08:07 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Id prefer a man that could think on his own with his own internal moral compass, and not require some 'entity' to tell him what is right or wrong..
I suspect that "internal moral compass" is the exact thing some people are calling "God". Not that there is anything wrong with that. Depending on what (or who's?) morality is being used (and presented?) as one's guidance (to others?), of course.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-05-2012).]
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged” Matthew 7:1
Wow, from the link: "We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races, and we have nothing, not one bit of animosity, no racism whatsoever," Christian Identity Ministries Pastor William J. Collier told WIAT."
Don't have the facilities? Like separate restrooms for blacks?
Wow, from the link: "We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races, and we have nothing, not one bit of animosity, no racism whatsoever," Christian Identity Ministries Pastor William J. Collier told WIAT."
Don't have the facilities? Like separate restrooms for blacks?
Regardless of how one feels about it, as a private church they should have the right to refuse anyone they wish.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-06-2012).]
You're a manner of non-denominational genocide proponent....a kind of equal-opportunity pseudo-bigot.
Well, that makes it perfectly acceptable, of course.
BTW....no one is questioning their "right" to do it. That's not at issue. They are certainly not the only congregation that harbors similar views and nothing has been done by and large to successfully impede "rights" thus far.
The broader point is whether it should be considered symptomatic of (or equitable to) all Christians to be judged by a behavior that is (to my knowledge...correct me if I'm wrong) totally antithetical to the teachings of The Christ.
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06:19 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12351 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
No, I'm agnostic. There is no proof god(s) exists ( tho there is subjective evidence that one does not exist ) so i don't subscribe to the concept.
Ah, excellent.
Since you don't have a "dog in the hunt" as it were, you obviously harbor no specific theological preferences regarding equitable discrimination. Whats good for one theist is good for all in your world, right? In that light, there are roughly 2.2 billion Christians who should be fearing your wrath as well. I stand corrected.
Cool....I'm glad we cleared that up.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 07-06-2012).]
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06:37 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Did Mohammed say that all infidels must die? Can you show me the chapter and verse?
But even then, I'm not so exacting as you. If they follow most of Mohammed's teachings, and leave out that one part, I'm good with it. They're "mostly Muslims". And if they want to just call themselves "Muslims", that's OK with me.
Maybe you are right.
You know what I would do, if I were in your shoes and knew I was right?
I would keep it a secret to myself, and let the world go along its merry but not 100% right way.
I'm just hoping there's more people around like me than like you.
Peace.
Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.” Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Even if you consider catholic, Christian, Hitler planned to execute the pope, he wasn't catholic or christian. Surely a genocidal maniac can lie. Can't he?
See how liberal, revisionist history is different form actual history? Yes Islam orders the death of atheist as well as Christians, yes CNN lied to you. Hitler was not really catholic, he played the part, to appease the Catholics, and then tried to stab them in the back. Gasp, the horrors the liberal media tried to sell you that Hitler was a Christian, when in fact he was Atheist! Oh noes.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 07-06-2012).]
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09:17 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
The Koran has "good" verses and (as you have illustrated) "bad" verses.
It's the responsibility of the Imams or whatever other Muslim spiritual readers to interpret the Koran and spread the word to the followers as to how to interpret the Koran--which verses are the most important, and which verses should inform their actions in this world.
You can't just sit down by yourself with the Koran, read it from front to back, and try to be a Muslim by conforming your actions to every Koranic injunction, because some of the injunctions conflict with each other.
That's my theory, anyway.
I hope that Doni Hagan comes back here to read this post--maybe he would have something to say about this.
I'm not sure where you are going with your statements about Hitler.
I have never perceived Hitler as a Catholic or any other kind of Christian.
But there were many avowed Christians in Germany who lined up with Hitler and gave him willing "hands" to do the damage; some became Nazi party members; some just cooperated with the Nazis but didn't officially join the Nazi party.
You should read the book "Theologians Under Hitler", or at least read something about that book. Or maybe you can see something about that book on one of the cable TV channels.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-06-2012).]
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10:42 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
I don't know what Heinrich Himmler thought of Islam and the Koran, per se, but I do know that the Nazis tried to forge a general alliance with Muslims in Central Europe, Turkey, North Africa (including Egypt), Palestine and Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East. And there's no doubt that parts of the large Muslim world lined up with the Nazis and tried to help them--to their historic shame.
It's also true that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia decided to sell its oil to the U.S. and its allies, instead of to the Nazis.
Himmler was also very interested in and admiring of Hinduism and the sacred Hindu texts. Is that a stain on Hinduism? Not unless the Hindus liked him back in return and lent their hands to the Nazi efforts.
One of our PFF posters (Todd/82-at-work) has called Hinduism a religion of "peace". Was he wrong, because of this Himmler connection?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-06-2012).]
The Koran has "good" verses and (as you have illustrated) "bad" verses.
It's the responsibility of the Imams or whatever other Muslim spiritual readers to interpret the Koran and spread the word to the followers as to how to interpret the Koran--which verses are the most important, and which verses should inform their actions in this world.
If there was a god(s) i bet he would be really pissed that people were not following his teaching TO THE LETTER and instead cherry picking what suits them at that particular time. Its his law, not suggestion.
"lets see, i think ill ignore commandment 10 today, as that girl down the street is pretty cute"
Sorry, i don't buy it.
And note i do see a difference between failing but trying to follow as 'we are only human' and just blowing it off in that a particular verse just doesn't suit me so ill 'interpret' it out of there.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-07-2012).]
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12:30 PM
PFF
System Bot
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
If there was a god(s) i bet he would be really pissed that people were not following his teaching TO THE LETTER and instead cherry picking what suits them at that particular time. Its his law, not suggestion.
"lets see, i think ill ignore commandment 10 today, as that girl down the street is pretty cute"
Sorry, i don't buy it.
And note i do see a difference between failing to follow 'we are only human' and just blowing it off that a particular verse just doesn't suit me so ill 'interpret' it out of there.
I'm sure there is a convoluted explanation why this makes sense. If all else fails: "the ways of the lord are impenetrable".
PS: If you want to read about a particularly "mischievous" way of circumventing the word of the lord, their god, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmita#Heter_mechira. I think it's hilarious...!
I don't know what Heinrich Himmler thought of Islam and the Koran, per se, but I do know that the Nazis tried to forge a general alliance with Muslims in Central Europe, Turkey, North Africa (including Egypt), Palestine and Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East. And there's no doubt that parts of the large Muslim world lined up with the Nazis and tried to help them--to their historic shame.
It's also true that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia decided to sell its oil to the U.S. and its allies, instead of to the Nazis.
Himmler was also very interested in and admiring of Hinduism and the sacred Hindu texts. Is that a stain on Hinduism? Not unless the Hindus liked him back in return and lent their hands to the Nazi efforts.
One of our PFF posters (Todd/82-at-work) has called Hinduism a religion of "peace". Was he wrong, because of this Himmler connection?
Any alliance that the Nazis would have made was just to use their resources until it was time to eradicate them. There was no room for non-Aryans in the world.
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12:48 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by User00013170: Any alliance that the Nazis would have made was just to use their resources until it was time to eradicate them. There was no room for non-Aryans in the world.
But the Nazi definition of "Aryan" might have changed, if the war had taken a different course.
Did you know that Hitler called his Japanese allies the "Aryans of the East"..?
Getting back to Islam, I don't perceive that every faithful Muslim has the liberty to "cherry-pick" whatever he wants from the Koran, on a moment-by-moment basis.
It's up to the Imam to inform the followers as to what the Koran means in the modern world.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-08-2012).]
But the Nazi definition of "Aryan" might have changed, if the war had taken a different course.
Did you know that Hitler called his Japanese allies "Asian Aryans"..?
Getting back to Islam, I don't perceive that every faithful Muslim has the liberty to "cherry-pick" whatever he wants from the Koran, on a moment-by-moment basis.
It's up to the Imam to inform the followers as to what the Koran means in the modern world.
No, it wouldn't have changed, and like i said any alliance he made was just to use them. That he called anyone friend was a farce. Eventually their usefulness would be cone and they would become be a liability and be removed. Its not a matter of if, only when.
If you don't feel that a faithful Muslim doesn't have the liberty to cherry pick, then we are aback to the same point made earlier, they are all dangerous as their god says kill everyone else..
It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was... That is why we still have wars and kill one another...
It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was...
Humanity evolves IMO that's what learning/understanding is for.
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11:37 PM
Jul 8th, 2012
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was... That is why we still have wars and kill one another...
