quote Originally posted by crashyoung: It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was... That is why we still have wars and kill one another...

Many wars are over resources, and have nothing to do with trust or differences.

quote Originally posted by crashyoung: It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was... That is why we still have wars and kill one another...

I believe it bears repeating.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I believe it bears repeating.

That's why i have always said that at our core everyone is racist. Its a protection mechanism to associate/trust your own kind we got from when we were still becoming 'man'.

You rarely see wild animals doing it, for the same reasons.

quote Originally posted by crashyoung: It doesn't matter who or what others are or do, if they are different than you, you are going to fear and mistrust them... Humanity is the same as it ever was... That is why we still have wars and kill one another...

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I believe it bears repeating.

Sounds good in a tearjerking movie, but the reality is that is NOT why we have wars. MOST wars are caused by other reasons, like greed, power, pride, property and hate. Being diferent is what alot of people take pride in and strive for. Why is there such a thing as style, customs cars, custom houses and so on? The World loves to stand out and be diferent.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-08-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Sounds good in a tearjerking movie, but the reality is that is NOT why we have wars. MOST wars are caused by other reasons, like greed, power, pride, property and hate. Being diferent is what alot of people take pride in and strive for. Why is there such a thing as style, customs cars, custom houses and so on? The World loves to stand out and be diferent.

I was commenting on "Humanity is same as it ever was".
We ain't come all that far, deep down.
Still motivated by our base desires, fears, & attitudes.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Simply wrong to the core.

Only if you aren't honest with yourself.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I was commenting on "Humanity is same as it ever was". We ain't come all that far, deep down. Still motivated by our base desires, fears, & attitudes.

i think the point is to try to rise above all that. otherwise, we're no better than cockroaches. progress has been slow, but we've only been here a million years or so, a blink in time.

quote Originally posted by lurker: we're no better than cockroaches.

Sure we are, but not by much.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Sure we are, but not by much.

I disagree, we're worse. Animals can be cruel but are never consciously so. We're the only species that knows what we inflict on others (man or beast) and still do it and often even enjoy it.

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-08-2012).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: I disagree, we're worse. Animals can be cruel but are never consciously so. We're the only species that knows what we inflict on others (man or beast) and still do it and often even enjoy it.

Heh, ever seen or heard of a cat?

quote Originally posted by lurker: i think the point is to try to rise above all that. otherwise, we're no better than cockroaches. progress has been slow, but we've only been here a million years or so, a blink in time.

Heh, exactly what I was thinking.
Evolution is sooooooo slow.
Makes you feel kind of silly talking about current events as if they are so importent.



I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment's gone
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see

Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind

Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky
It slips away, all your money won't another minute buy

Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind...

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-08-2012).]

I've had cats for decades (as well as dogs). They aren't cruel out of malice but out of instinct to sharpen their hunting skills. A cat cannot reason.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Heh, ever seen or heard of a cat?

Chimpanzees have been known to kill and eat their own kind, seeing they are our closest living relatives in evilution, perhaps we are not as evolved as we think we are...
As far as killing for resources and greed, why would we not try to barter or buy what we want? It would cut our losses as well as the losses of whom we war with.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Only if you aren't honest with yourself.

Keep typeing bumberstickers, it might stick to someone.
We all deal with our own hate (some more than others), but not all of us have racism to fight back.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Heh, exactly what I was thinking. Evolution is sooooooo slow. Makes you feel kind of silly talking about current events as if they are so important.

evolution favors the survivors. if survival is enhanced by enlarging our sense of us, then we'll evolve in that direction.

if you assume, even hypothetically, that there are aliens on other worlds, it becomes easier to see what we have in common. things like skin, or how you name god, fade into insignificance.

imo, in a world where all humanity is so connected and interdependent, (and vulnerable), we're approaching a watershed. if we don't figure out how to regard all humanity as us we're doomed, likely by self-destruction.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 07-09-2012).]

EMPOWERING MODERATE ISLAM
Speech by Dr. Douglas M. Johnston, April 5, 2012

In November 2004, H.M. King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein of Jordan issued the Amman Message to “declare what Islam is and what it is not, and what actions represent it and what actions do not,” and to “clarify to the modern world the true nature of Islam and the nature of true Islam.” He went on to consult prominent Islamic scholars throughout the world and in 2005, hosted a conference where many of them further developed their thinking related to this task. By 2006, the King had gained considerable global support for the initiative, and it culminated in – to quote the initiatives’ associated website – “a historical, universal and unanimous religious and political consensus (ijma’) of the Ummah (nation) of Islam in our day, and a consolidation of traditional, orthodox Islam.”[1] As King Abdullah describes the message,

“Its content is a message of unity, mutual respect, and brotherhood. As such it is also a definitive answer to sedition amongst Muslims, and a clear demarcation of True Islam in all its forms.

And as all True Islam forbids wanton aggression and terrorism, enjoins freedom of religion, peace, justice and good-will to non-Muslims, it is also a message of good news, friendship and hope to the whole world. I pray that this unique consensus as documented and affirmed in this book will bring us closer to a world where we can be loyal to our religion, live in peace and prosper with all our fellow human beings, and fulfill the purpose for which we all were placed on earth.”[2]

. . . .

http://icrd.org/empowering-moderate-islam

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-10-2012).]

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: EMPOWERING MODERATE ISLAM Speech by Dr. Douglas M. Johnston, April 5, 2012 In November 2004, H.M. King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein of Jordan issued the Amman Message to “declare what Islam is and what it is not, and what actions represent it and what actions do not,” and to “clarify to the modern world the true nature of Islam and the nature of true Islam.” He went on to consult prominent Islamic scholars throughout the world and in 2005, hosted a conference where many of them further developed their thinking related to this task. By 2006, the King had gained considerable global support for the initiative, and it culminated in – to quote the initiatives’ associated website – “a historical, universal and unanimous religious and political consensus (ijma’) of the Ummah (nation) of Islam in our day, and a consolidation of traditional, orthodox Islam.”[1] As King Abdullah describes the message, “Its content is a message of unity, mutual respect, and brotherhood. As such it is also a definitive answer to sedition amongst Muslims, and a clear demarcation of True Islam in all its forms. And as all True Islam forbids wanton aggression and terrorism, enjoins freedom of religion, peace, justice and good-will to non-Muslims, it is also a message of good news, friendship and hope to the whole world. I pray that this unique consensus as documented and affirmed in this book will bring us closer to a world where we can be loyal to our religion, live in peace and prosper with all our fellow human beings, and fulfill the purpose for which we all were placed on earth.”[2] . . . . http://icrd.org/empowering-moderate-islam

It seems that as long as any radicals continue their destructive ways whatever the true Muslims say will never be enough to quell the fear and hate in some people.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 07-10-2012).]

quote Originally posted by newf: It seems that as long as any radicals continue their destructive ways whatever the true Muslims say will never be enough to quell the fear and hate in some people.

By "true" you mean the ones that pick and choose what parts of the Quran to follow? From what I have read it looks like the radicals might be the true Muslims.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: By "true" you mean the ones that pick and choose what parts of the Quran to follow? From what I have read it looks like the radicals might be the true Muslims.

Take the argument one step further....when it comes to the topic of "what muslums belive" the ones picking and choseing what to belive are the ones that are not even muslums. People that want to do good and hope that all religions are good, are inturpeting the beliefs and teachings of others. Then whoever does not comply to the expectations set for them, they are called radical.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I was commenting on "Humanity is same as it ever was". We ain't come all that far, deep down. Still motivated by our base desires, fears, & attitudes.

We havent moved at all, we just have more stuff, different stuff.

On another note
I do notice alot of people say how bad we are, but then sometimes they are the same people who say deep down they think humans are basically good. Then those people will also say there is no definitive right and wrong or good and bad. Wow is it hard to converse with that stuff.

ya think?
when i see that, i assume there's some underlying core value that hasn't been clearly stated. that's why i ask those annoying questions. either that, or they're just trolls who enjoy stirring the sh.... um, pot.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I do notice alot of people say how bad we are, but then sometimes they are the same people who say deep down they think humans are basically good. Then those people will also say there is no definitive right and wrong or good and bad. Wow is it hard to converse with that stuff.

I don't think we are nessisarily good OR bad.
Anymore then a wolf, or a bear are good or bad.
But we are what we are.

I put fourth that we should strive to be more then just what we are.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: 1. how bad we are, 2. deep down they think humans are basically good. T 3. there is no definitive right and wrong or good and bad.

And I guess it could be all those things.
They could all be part of the same thing.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-10-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: By "true" you mean the ones that pick and choose what parts of the Quran to follow? From what I have read it looks like the radicals might be the true Muslims.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Take the argument one step further....when it comes to the topic of "what muslums belive" the ones picking and choseing what to belive are the ones that are not even muslums. People that want to do good and hope that all religions are good, are inturpeting the beliefs and teachings of others. Then whoever does not comply to the expectations set for them, they are called radical.

The Koran is a long book.

It says a lot of things.

On one page it says "Kill all infidels."

On another page it says "Be just and merciful to all."

There's at least as much to like as not to like in the Koran. Even from the viewpoint of an "infidel".

Some posters (like dennis_6) have cherry-picked the Koran to illustrate just the one side of the Koran that they (dennis_6, et al..) are hanging their hat on.

You cannot read the Koran in the same way that a Christian fundamentalist reads the Bible, as a simple, straightforward, internally consistent and perfectly literal prescription of how to live in the modern world. A Christian fundamentalist doesn't need (or at least thinks that he doesn't need) to have the Bible interpreted for him through the intermediary of Christian scholarship--professional Christian clergy.

So the Koran says on page 973 (or whatever) "Kill all infidels." The question is what does that mean in the modern world? What does it mean in the light of page 1024 (or whatever) that says "Be just and merciful to all."? And that's where Islamic scholarship and tradition must be taken into consideration by a true Muslim. And that gets us to the Amman Message, which is trying to establish a newer and more modern Islamic scholarship and tradtion that is better suited for the modern world.

I said before that--to the best of my understanding--you can't just sit down by yourself, read the Koran from front to back and try to be a Muslim without reference to the latest in Islamic scholarship and tradition--without consulting the intermediary or interpretative function of Islamic clergy.

You can't really be a Muslim fundamentalist because you would have to be both merciful and merciless to non-believers, all at the same time. People who try to be Muslim fundamentalists end up like Osama bin Laden. So I hold that a Muslim fundamentalist is the kind of Muslim who is out of line with true Islam, as defined by the Amman Message. A Muslim fundamentalist is a radical Muslim is an Islamic radical is an Islamist--and I condemn them all.

The real question is when will more Islamic scholars and clergy around the world get in step with the intent of the Amman Message, which I think is the best new direction for Islam (that I know of).

Even Jordan, where the Amman Message originated, still has blasphemy laws to punish anyone who insults Islam--although the punishment on the books in Jordan is somewhat less draconian than the new blasphemy law that is being instituted in Kuwait.

I think that the U.S. is one place, especially, where the Amman Message may take hold as the predominant flavor of Islam.

I could point to certain signs, like this Muslim blogger in Texas (thanks to maryjane). Or the Cordoba Initiative, which I already referenced in one of my many posts on this subject.

Even if there are only a relatively few "good" Muslims, I don't like to see them being thrown into the same bucket as the many, many bad ones around the world.

When you throw all Muslims under the bus, you go down the same slippery slope of uncritical stereotyping as Toddster did here.. and that ain't right!

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-10-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I don't think we are nessisarily good OR bad. Anymore then a wolf, or a bear are good or bad. But we are what we are. I put fourth that we should strive to be more then just what we are.

A wolf cannot be good or bad though it has only instinct. It cannot be guilty.

More implies better, implies good.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And I guess it could be all those things. They could all be part of the same thing.

To me
It can't be, even if your belief was "the univese" is all one and can do no wrong, there is still condradiction there.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Keep typeing bumberstickers, it might stick to someone. We all deal with our own hate (some more than others), but not all of us have racism to fight back.

Try learning some human nature, you will see you are lying to yourself and really don't understand how people function at a core level. But that's ok, a lot of people do that to themselves about a lot of things. It helps them sleep at night.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: I disagree, we're worse. Animals can be cruel but are never consciously so. We're the only species that knows what we inflict on others (man or beast) and still do it and often even enjoy it.

You are REALLY hanging out with the wrong crowd... just sayin'...


Todd

quote Originally posted by 2.5: A wolf cannot be good or bad though it has only instinct. It cannot be guilty. re.

Mankind isn't much better overall. Individuals sure, but not as a species.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: By "true" you mean the ones that pick and choose what parts of the Quran to follow? From what I have read it looks like the radicals might be the true Muslims.

Keep reading

quote Originally posted by 2.5: We havent moved at all, we just have more stuff, different stuff.

Better weapons, too.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Fear?

b/s
didn't your momma ever teach you, it only taks one, to rewin it for everyone else..
muslums are no different.. as they don't have the balls to stop the extremist in the group.. so stereotype'n is fine with me..
everyone does it to every other group.. join the crowd,, THEY don't like that stereotype, they can fix it. buy fighting the extremist in their group.. never happen as they fund them , but will never openly say it..
follow the money.. ask where the mos is sending money.. well well. to the extremist.. shocking.. and then they cry, stereotype'n.. STFU

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 07-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: b/s .... STFU

stan! where ya been, man? changin' up the style, i see.

quote Originally posted by lurker: we're no better than cockroaches.

At least we are much better looking.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: At least we are much better looking.[/IMG]

Not to a cockroach, I guess. It's all about the frame of reference...

quote Originally posted by lurker: stan! where ya been, man? changin' up the style, i see.

I believe stan wouldNOT have been that nice/
untill they stand up to their own that is making them and their beliefs look bad, the stereo stype will stand..
just as it does with catholic priest, and jews, and irish ,etc etc,

they ok what the extremist do. by being passive..

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: I believe stan wouldNOT have been that nice/ untill they stand up to their own that is making them and their beliefs look bad, the stereo stype will stand.. just as it does with catholic priest, and jews, and irish ,etc etc, they ok what the extremist do. by being passive..

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/094688-4.html#p144

funny I remember video(and quite a few) of muslums jumping up and down like it was a party when 911 was happening LIVE..
you know the ones here.. wonder why they have a stereotype that they do.. shocking
action, actions, actions not words..

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: I believe stan wouldNOT have been that nice/ untill they stand up to their own that is making them and their beliefs look bad, the stereo stype will stand.. just as it does with catholic priest, and jews, and irish ,etc etc, they ok what the extremist do. by being passive..

Great an equal opportunity bigot.

quote Originally posted by newf: Great an equal opportunity bigot.

You wouldn't want him to discriminate.