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If Obama wins re-election, will people who voted for him still ignore reality? by 82-T/A [At Work]
Started on: 10-02-2012 02:51 PM
Replies: 133
Last post by: mptighe on 10-05-2012 10:05 PM
maryjane
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Report this Post10-03-2012 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

OK, I have found myself in another political thread. What the hell is wrong with me? Actually that's probably easier to answer than the OP's question.

In short, not being a Dem, I'm not going to answer the question, but I have some of my own.

Is it possible that most of the financial problems we face have been building much longer than just the past 4 (ish) years? Even longer than the past 10 years?

Yep, more than possible--an almost sure thing--since 1947 to be exact.

 
quote
Is it possible that things were so bad when Obama took office, that we weren't fully aware of how bad things actually were?

Possible-especially if one is a moron, or one of the now infamous "Smart Kids".

 
quote
Is it possible that things were so bad, that there was no way of digging ourselves out within a relatively short amount of time (4 years or so)?

Sure, if one takes into account my answer above. Morons tend to continue to dig even after they are up to their asses in alligators.

 
quote
Is it possible that the political show we're watching is as choreographed as any other television show we watch (like wrestling where they pick our enemies for us but it's all fake)?

Yeah--sure, that's the ticket--it's possibly just a show and isn't really taking place in real time or in the real world-- just as it's possible we didn't really go to the moon.

 
quote
Is it possible that our power of choice is an illusion?

Define "our" please. If you are specifically asking if MY power of choice is just an illusion, then the answer is no.

 
quote
If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then what? Who CAN you blame?


The people who ask these questions.

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williegoat
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Report this Post10-03-2012 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatDirect Link to This Post
I believe that if Obama is reelected, his supporters will no longer have need to ignore reality. They will be free to raise up on their hind legs and openly declare their disdain for America.
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Report this Post10-03-2012 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

You are finding out that a great many people have a great deal of difficulty answering exceedingly simple and direct questions--there is a reason for that, and it isn't because they lack the ability or intelligence to do so.


yes it is funny how toad can't answer a simple question

even when asked repeatedly

but ignoring most things like evolution
or banning sex ed and surprise at rising pregnancy rates
still 20 years later hoping voodoo will work
or trickle down
or markets know best
or deregulation is a good idea
is a solid part of nut-con dogma that is based on ignoring reality


in fact their gop slogan should be

JUST SAY NO TO REALITY
WE KNOW BETTER
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Report this Post10-03-2012 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DL10Click Here to visit DL10's HomePageSend a Private Message to DL10Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


It's a real simple question Boonie... if Obama wins re-election, AND if the economy does not recover, will you blame Republicans, or place the blame on Obama?

Real simple... yes or no.


No....... I won't blame Obama, I won't blame Romney, I won't blame Bush, the only reason we have TWO PARTYS is so each one can blame the other for what doesn't get done. They are all bought and paid for buy big money special interest groups.
My question for you is if Romney wins and things continue to get worse, will you blame him or will you blame the mess he got from Obama?
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Report this Post10-03-2012 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

...or trickle down ...


Bush Sr.'s trickle down did work and like he said in his Thousand Points of Light speech, "...it will just take time." Unfortunately the economy is slow to change and Clinton received the credit.

Ray, I really wish you paid attention to what has happened over the last sixty years and not listened to the corrupt media, corrupt union reps, and anyone else willing to agree with your anti-American sentiment.

[This message has been edited by Xyster (edited 10-03-2012).]

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ray b
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Report this Post10-04-2012 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
worked in two union shops

never did join a union
but did get union reps to want to fight me
and voted to kick out a union [replace with a more radical one]


TRICKLE DOWN
no it did not mostly ''WORK''
the rich got richer
the poor got poorer

and the middle got very little to no gain
ANTI-AMERICAN ?
BS THAT IS NUT-CON SPIN
FIGHTING AGAINST THE PIG IS A FINE AMERICAN TRADITION
THAT IS HOW WE FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY

SOME HOW THE NUT-CON TURNED BEING THE PIG INTO A VIRTUE
THAT IS WRONG

I FEAR YOUR BRAIN IS FROZEN
LIVING THE COLDEST PLACE IN THE LOWER 48 WILL DO THAT

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maryjane
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Report this Post10-04-2012 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

I believe that if Obama is reelected, his supporters will no longer have need to ignore reality. They will be free to raise up on their hind legs and openly declare their disdain for America.


Good luck with that. They won't even answer a simple question.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
In 2008, things might have been able to be pretty much fixed in a 4 year term. What Obama has done in those 4 years will take many more years to fix, if its ever fixed at all.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatDirect Link to This Post
Lyndon Johnson tilled the soil in which the seeds were planted. Barack Obama has harvested the crop. It will take more than a generation to repair the rift that has been created in the American population.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


The people who ask these questions.


Interesting opinion. Blame the people who ask if what we're being fed is actually the real story. One thing to remember, these people are inheriting all of the issues the former generations leave behind. If we don't ask questions like this and try to resolve issues (including restructuring the entire system if need be) then our kids inherit an even worse situation. Since I'm not sure if your answer was sarcastic or not, I'll refrain from attaching any emotion to it.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post

mptighe

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quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

In 2008, things might have been able to be pretty much fixed in a 4 year term. What Obama has done in those 4 years will take many more years to fix, if its ever fixed at all.


I seriously disagree. We didn't even know the extent of the damage that had been done to the economy in 2008. I see it kind of like a car accident. 10 minutes after you're in shock and problems can arise months later. People are star bellied sneeches, it didn't matter who got in, the "other" sneeches were going to blame them for not immediately fixing something unable to be immediately fixed.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 10-04-2012).]

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Report this Post10-04-2012 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
well, I blame the economy mostly on Clinton. to me, thats where the house of cards was built. I blame the majority of the deficit on the unfunded wars.

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Report this Post10-04-2012 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red88FFSend a Private Message to Red88FFDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, I blame the economy mostly on Clinton. to me, thats where the house of cards was built. I blame the majority of the deficit on the unfunded wars.


And I would agree with you. BUT he could not have gotten away with the deregulation that caused this without the republicans full support. I think I read that there was a record amount of monies spent in lobbying and campaign contributions to both sides to get the job done.

I think we had this conversation before.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
It might not have been back to what it was before in 4 years, but it would have been on its way. Were not getting any better now, its getting worse. Unemployment is easily surpassing any new jobs every month if you look at real figures. Obama might say he created a million new jobs, but it dont matter when 1.5 million more have lost theirs in the same time. School graduates are not getting jobs because they arent there. Small businesses close every day or cut back on employees because they wont spend any reserve money on anything. They simply dont trust Obama. Like Romney pointed out, Obamas healthcare plan is suicide to most small businesses. He pointed out one in particular who said his family business already was being taxed 50% of its income with income tax, SS tax, healthcare, workmens comp and unemployment comp.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

See, now that's a question!

I myself don't deal too much in blameing.
There is plenty to go around.
And how do you know where blame goes?

I mean, if Obama presents what he thinks is a good plan, but the republicans don't think it is & block it, who are you supposed to blame?
The President for doing what he thinks is right, or the Republicans for doing what they think is right?

One-sided blame just don't work.
It's like a room full of skunks arguing over who stinks.



But you still didn't answer the question...


 
quote
Originally posted by masospaghetti:


Seriously, get off your high horse. I ask you a simple, respectful question and you come back with a series of childish insults. And you think that I am the emotional one?

Are you stupid enough to think that things change the instant someone becomes president? If you know better, than please tell - since that's what I was asking to begin with.

Speaking of delusions, you immediately attack my character because I challenge your beliefs. I am far from an Obama supporter... but you immediately label me as one because I challenged you to do some logical thinking of your own.


Oh yes, of course, I hurt your feelings and now you refuse to answer. Pobrecita.

Logical thinking... ? You want logical thinking? We just increased the national debt by over 6 trillion dollars in 4 years, something is broken. It obviously wasn't fixed by this president in the past 4 years, and nothing he has done has even remotely broached the topic so there's no reason to think it's going to get fixed in another 4. Doesn't get much more logical than that.


 
quote
Originally posted by DL10:


No....... I won't blame Obama, I won't blame Romney, I won't blame Bush, the only reason we have TWO PARTYS is so each one can blame the other for what doesn't get done. They are all bought and paid for buy big money special interest groups.
My question for you is if Romney wins and things continue to get worse, will you blame him or will you blame the mess he got from Obama?


If Romney wins and in four years, we're still the same as we were... I'll blame Romney. It shouldn't take this long.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-04-2012).]

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Report this Post10-04-2012 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
'''But you still didn't answer the question...'''


your side never answers our questions
so why do you then think you can demand answers to loaded questions
[loaded as in have you stop beating your wife , answer yes or no only!]

tell you what when the toad answers my question about his sale/foreclosed rate
then maybe you may get an answer

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 10-04-2012).]

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Report this Post10-04-2012 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
He pointed out one in particular who said his family business already was being taxed 50% of its income with income tax, SS tax, healthcare, workmens comp and unemployment comp.


To be fair, does this person exist? Same is true for Obama's examples. It makes for great TV.... but you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. You know that.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

'''But you still didn't answer the question...'''


your side never answers our questions
so why do you then think you can demand answers to loaded questions
[loaded as in have you stop beating your wife , answer yes or no only!]

tell you what when the toad answers my question about his sale/foreclosed rate
then maybe you may get an answer




Hahah... yes, I did stop beating my wife.


Todd
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Report this Post10-04-2012 06:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


To be fair, does this person exist? Same is true for Obama's examples. It makes for great TV.... but you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. You know that.


My situation was a bit different as as small business owner myself. I didnt have employees so I didnt have to have healthcare, unemployment and workmens comp. My taxes were over prob 40%+/-. After the car business crashed, I wasnt going to try to keep open full time for $300 @ week. It wasnt worth the effort. I make more taking my SS and doing occasional small jobs with a lot smaller tax bite. I dont have the costs of keeping the shop lit, heated, etc 5 days a week. Sometimes now, I dont even go in the garage for a week except to back one of my cars out.

Obama has a new ad out about the coal company workers being forced to show up for a Romney rally by the company without pay. One of the girls I know is from the area and has a brother who works there. Obamas story as the ad depicts it didnt happen at all, just more made up BS. Security for Romney closed the mine for the day, workers were allowed to stay or go home with pay. Obama on the other hand had a rally here a few miles from my house in a large German neighborhood with NO blacks (none). They brought in busloads of them to be in the shots shown on the news. They didnt pay them, but gave them a free lunch for showing up. (maybe some wanted free phones )

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 10-04-2012).]

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Report this Post10-04-2012 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Obama has a new ad out about the coal company workers being forced to show up for a Romney rally by the company without pay. One of the girls I know is from the area and has a brother who works there. Obamas story as the ad depicts it didnt happen at all, just more made up BS. Security for Romney closed the mine for the day, workers were allowed to stay or go home with pay. Obama on the other hand had a rally here a few miles from my house in a large German neighborhood with NO blacks (none). They brought in busloads of them to be in the shots shown on the news. They didnt pay them, but gave them a free lunch for showing up. (maybe some wanted free phones )



Yes, I remember that topic. From what was said in the local news they used buses to move people around from different parts of town (you could see those buses in the photo... not hidden like you said). Do you have proof they brought those people in just for this, and those people didn't come on their own free will?

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Report this Post10-04-2012 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Hahah... yes, I did stop beating my wife.

Todd



You know, I have to be careful with this... because a long time ago when someone used "this" on Toddster, I thought for the longest time that he actually beat his wife... so I semi-resisted quoting or responding to anything he made in posts because of it!
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Report this Post10-04-2012 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

[loaded as in have you stop beating your wife , answer yes or no only!]



Yikes, another tuff "question".
I guess I could say that although I don't beat my wife now, if I ever do get around to beating my wife, i'm sure that at some point I will stop?
I mean, it's just inevitable.
You get tired.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post

Boondawg

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quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


But you still didn't answer the question...



You asked who I would blame.
I said I don't blame.

It's a wash.
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Report this Post10-04-2012 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for F355spiderSend a Private Message to F355spiderDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


To be fair, does this person exist? Same is true for Obama's examples. It makes for great TV.... but you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. You know that.


YES they do. I have a friend that owns his own business. He has 12 employees. Last year he told me he hit the 50% mark and was thinking about closing up if taxes go any higher. The truth is we had four years of Obama and things are worse than before he started. He had his chance and blew it and picked losers. You know with Obama it will be worst than now so why would anyone besides the lowlife bottom suckers and racist people even think of keeping the looser. The other people that do not fit in those two categories are lost to me I just do not understand why?
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Report this Post10-04-2012 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:


YES they do. I have a friend that owns his own business. He has 12 employees. Last year he told me he hit the 50% mark and was thinking about closing up if taxes go any higher. The truth is we had four years of Obama and things are worse than before he started. He had his chance and blew it and picked losers. You know with Obama it will be worst than now so why would anyone besides the lowlife bottom suckers and racist people even think of keeping the looser. The other people that do not fit in those two categories are lost to me I just do not understand why?


Will your friend hire more people if the tax rate was lowered? And why?
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Report this Post10-04-2012 11:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

FIGHTING AGAINST THE PIG IS A FINE AMERICAN TRADITION
THAT IS HOW WE FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY



Then why do you cast your votes for a group that wants to turn the government into a fat "PIG"?
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Report this Post10-05-2012 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:


Then why do you cast your votes for a group that wants to turn the government into a fat "PIG"?


because the GOP WENT FROM THE LIGHT TO THE dark side

I never claim the demo's are not evil
just less evil then the GOP

LOTS OF PIGS IN 2000 TO 2008
LOTS OF BIG GOV TOO

YOUR GUYS TALK ABOUT DOING
BUT SELDOM REALLY GET ANY RESULTS
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Report this Post10-05-2012 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post

ray b

13415 posts
Member since Jan 2001
I LIKED IKE

BUT THE PARTY DID NOT GO IKE'S WAY

THE PARTY UNDER THE EVIL TROLL NIXON
TURNED TOTALLY TO THE DARK SIDE
AND NEVER CAME BACK THERE AFTER
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Report this Post10-05-2012 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiDirect Link to This Post
Todd, if you really wanted an answer, you would have asked

"If Obama wins re-election, and things don't improve during his second term, will people who voted for him concede he is part of the problem?"

Instead, you chose an intentionally leading and inflammatory question and now you wonder why people won't answer, claiming its proof of how much liberals are in denial.

[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 10-05-2012).]

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Report this Post10-05-2012 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Red88FFSend a Private Message to Red88FFDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by masospaghetti:

Todd, if you really wanted an answer, you would have asked

"If Obama wins re-election, and things don't improve during his second term, will people who voted for him concede he is part of the problem?"

Instead, you chose an intentionally leading and inflammatory question and now you wonder why people won't answer, claiming its proof of how much liberals are in denial.



More denial?
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Report this Post10-05-2012 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


If Romney wins and in four years, we're still the same as we were... I'll blame Romney. It shouldn't take this long.



How do you figure? How long should it take to fix an entire system based on values that reward one group of people and not others? How long should it take to fix a problem that took decades to create? How long should it take to create something that will affect over 300 million people in a positive way? Since you apparently have the answer, why not share it so we can start living in this Utopia?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 10-05-2012).]

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Report this Post10-05-2012 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post

mptighe

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Member since Aug 2009
Here's a reciprocal question. If Obama does get re-elected, and things improve, will the Republicans admit that he may not have been the root of all evil, and that maybe it's not an our side v/s their side thing?
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Report this Post10-05-2012 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KidOSend a Private Message to KidODirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

Here's a reciprocal question. If Obama does get re-elected, and things improve, will the Republicans admit that he may not have been the root of all evil, and that maybe it's not an our side v/s their side thing?


[SARCASM]If things improve under Obama, it is a lie. Nothing more than liberal spin. Things will never improve until we have a republican in the Whitehouse.[/SARCASM]
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Red88FF
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Report this Post10-05-2012 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Red88FFSend a Private Message to Red88FFDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by KidO:


[SARCASM]If things improve under Obama, it is a lie. Nothing more than liberal spin. Things will never improve until we have a republican in the Whitehouse.[/SARCASM]


Bullsshit, there are plenty of quality moderate democrats out there that could get the job done if given a chance at the oval office. The democrats did not put one up for us to vote for.
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Report this Post10-05-2012 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
Romney Vow to Lower Middle-Class Taxes at Odds With Cap
http://finance.yahoo.com/ne...s-135446981.html?l=1

On taxes, Mitt Romney is long on promises and short on details.

The Republican presidential nominee pledges to "lower taxes on middle-income families," without giving high earners another tax cut or adding to the U.S. budget deficit. He can do that, he says, by capping the value of tax breaks available to any individual taxpayer.

His tax plan, however, would upend financial planning for millions of middle-class households, denying them thousands of dollars in annual deductions. Earlier this week, after months of refusing to specify which tax breaks he would curtail, Romney said taxpayers might be able to take a total of no more than $17,000 in deductions each year.

That won't bring in enough revenue to make up for almost $5 trillion the government will lose over 10 years once tax rates are reduced by 20 percent as Romney has proposed, according to economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution in Washington.

"It doesn't come close to paying for the $5 trillion," said Gale, who co-authored a study of Romney's tax plan for the non-partisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.

At least 3.7 million U.S. taxpayers last year reported deductions of $25,000 or more. About 10 million others wrote off $15,000 to $25,000. Romney says their taxes wouldn't go up, and in fact would decline, under his 20 percent across-the-board tax rate cut.
‘Revenue Neutral'

The Romney campaign disputes the center's analysis and has cited competing studies by economists at Princeton University in New Jersey and Rice University in Houston that back his initial tax plan.

The former Massachusetts governor describes his proposal as "revenue neutral," meaning the federal government would raise as much money as it currently does. Asked to explain who would pay more to compensate for middle-income households paying less in taxes, a campaign spokesman didn't immediately respond.

Romney this week suggested the cap as a way to help pay for his proposed tax rate cut. The deduction cap would be one piece of a three-part concept for broadening the tax base, which the Romney campaign has said is designed to jump-start economic growth.

Some families that both Romney and President Barack Obama describe as middle-class would end up with a tax cut under Romney's plan. Homeowners living in states with high state and local taxes, however, could end up worse off, according to a preliminary analysis by Bloomberg Government.
‘High-Tax States'

The $17,000 deduction cap "targets taxpayers residing in high-tax states that pay a lot of mortgage interest," says Bloomberg Government analyst Patrick Driessen, who spent 25 years as an economist for the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation.

A family living in Ohio that earns $150,000, donated $4,000 to charity and paid 4.5 percent interest on a $200,000 mortgage as well as $4,000 in property taxes in 2012 would see a tax cut of more than $3,000 under Romney's plan, according to a calculation prepared for Bloomberg News by Tim Steffen, director of financial planning at Robert W. Baird & Co. in Milwaukee.

Under the current tax code, such a family would owe $21,819 in federal income tax, compared with $18,728 under Romney's plan.

A similar family living in California or New York, where state taxes are much higher, wouldn't be as fortunate. Steffen emphasized the difficulty of analyzing Romney's plan because the candidate has provided few details as to how he would treat deductions and credits.
Tax Increase

Using slightly different assumptions, Tony Nitti, a partner at WithumSmith & Brown PC in Aspen, Colorado, who prepares taxpayer returns for high earners, found that Romney's plan could increase taxes for some middle-income families.

Nitti assumed an Ohio family with income from wages of $150,000, a 30-year mortgage at 5 percent interest with a beginning balance in 2012 of $300,000, generating a mortgage interest deduction for 2012 of $13,666. Their itemized deductions included real estate taxes of $5,000, charitable donations of $4,000 and state income tax payments of $6,000.

If Romney's proposed cap applies to itemized deductions and personal exemptions, this family would pay more under Romney's plan, Nitti said. He calculated that their tax bill would rise to $20,248 from $18,783 under current law -- an increase of $1,465.
Layer of Complexity

"The reason you cut rates and broaden the tax base is to simplify the tax code," Nitti said. "If instead you just put a cap on, you've not simplified it and you've just added another layer of complexity."

Romney's interest in capping deductions differs from an earlier proposal by Martin Feldstein, an economics professor at Harvard University. Last year, Feldstein, a former adviser to President Ronald Reagan, suggested limiting deductions to 2 percent of a taxpayer's adjusted gross income. His plan would have increased overall tax revenue by $278 billion in 2011 to reduce the deficit.

"My idea was to cap the revenue loss not the deductions per se," Feldstein wrote in an e-mail. "And it extended to the health care exclusion. So it is not comparable to the Romney suggestion."

Princeton's Harvey Rosen, an economics professor, concluded that Romney's plan would be as progressive as the current system if Congress eliminated the most widely used deductions by taxpayers earning more than $100,000 annually. Rosen's analysis abolished deductions for home mortgage interest payments, employer-provided health insurance, state and local taxes, charitable contributions, and the unrealized increase in the value of life-insurance policies for households with six-figure incomes.

Rosen declined to comment yesterday on the proposed $17,000 deduction cap, saying he hadn't studied it.
‘Got to Give'

Gale, who was a senior White House economist in the administration of President George H.W. Bush, says the Tax Policy Center is analyzing Romney's latest concept of capping deductions. It appears the deduction cap would raise only $1 trillion to $2 trillion of the needed $5 trillion, he said in a telephone interview.

"Something's got to give with all the things he's promised," he said. "It's not clear what."

In the Oct. 3 presidential debate, Romney rejected Obama's statement that he was proposing a "$5 trillion tax cut" tilted toward the wealthy. "I will not under any circumstances raise taxes on middle-income families. I will lower taxes on middle income families," Romney said.

In an Aug. 16 analysis, the Tax Policy Center found that cutting rates for taxpayers making more than $200,000 a year would cost the U.S. government $251 billion in revenue while curtailing tax breaks would bring in $165 billion.
Reviving Growth

Analyses that the Romney campaign has cited, including that by Princeton's Rosen, say that gap can be closed.

Romney describes his tax plan as essential to reviving the economy, especially through improved incentives for small businesses to hire. "For me, this is about jobs. This is about jobs for the American people," he said during the debate.

Obama criticized Romney for being vague about his tax plans, suggesting he was hiding details because they would hurt the middle class.

"He is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions," the president said during the debate. "The problem is that he's been asked over 100 times how you would close those deductions and loopholes, and he hasn't been able to identify them."

Romney took issue with Obama's contention. Instead, he said he is laying out general principles and leaving the details to negotiations with lawmakers after the election.
Different Caps

He also further muddied the few details that have been made public, including suggesting different potential deduction caps.

"What are the various ways we could bring down deductions, for instance?" Romney asked. "One way, for instance, would be to have a single number. Make up a number, $25,000, $50,000. Anybody can have deductions up to that amount. And then that number disappears for high-income people."

"There are alternatives to accomplish the objective I have, which is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code, and create incentives for growth," Romney said.

The Republican candidate also described his rate-lowering, base-broadening plan as having "the same idea behind Bowles- Simpson," referring to the national debt-reduction commission known for its co-chairmen, onetime White House Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles, a Democrat, and former Republican Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming.

Their report, however, would have increased taxes on capital gains and dividends, while Romney intends to continue taxing investment gains at a preferential 15 percent rate. His plan also would eliminate taxes on capital gains, dividends and interest for individuals making less than $200,000 a year.

To contact the reporters on this story: David J. Lynch in Washington at dlynch27@bloomberg.net; Margaret Collins in New York at mcollins45@bloomberg.net

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Jodi Schneider at jschneider50@bloomberg.net
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-05-2012 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by mptighe:

How do you figure? How long should it take to fix an entire system based on values that reward one group of people and not others? How long should it take to fix a problem that took decades to create? How long should it take to create something that will affect over 300 million people in a positive way? Since you apparently have the answer, why not share it so we can start living in this Utopia?




Oh yes... decades to create. Reagan turned the economy around in 2.5 years, largest recovery in the history of the United States. Clinton was able to balance during two years of his presidency.

Obama hasn't done **** ... nothing...


 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

Here's a reciprocal question. If Obama does get re-elected, and things improve, will the Republicans admit that he may not have been the root of all evil, and that maybe it's not an our side v/s their side thing?


Hah, I didn't even know that was an option! That's like asking me if I think elephants can fly, and then wanting to know what I think about it if it was to happen.

If Obama fixes the economy, I will be shocked and awed!

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-05-2012).]

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theBDub
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Report this Post10-05-2012 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

Here's a reciprocal question. If Obama does get re-elected, and things improve, will the Republicans admit that he may not have been the root of all evil, and that maybe it's not an our side v/s their side thing?


I am not a Republican, but I lean more right than left.

Yes. In fact, I don't think he's the worst president we've ever had. Two of my least favorites are Woodrow Wilson and Richard Nixon.

But Obama is not a good president, and I seriously doubt that if anything improves it will be because of his policies. If they do, it is likely from natural growth of economy recovering from a burst bubble and from being pumped up from quantitative easing (which will undoubtedly burst at some point in the next few years anyway). If Obama does do things that help the economy though then yes! Absolutely.
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mptighe
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Report this Post10-05-2012 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Hah, I didn't even know that was an option! That's like asking me if I think elephants can fly, and then wanting to know what I think about it if it was to happen.

If Obama fixes the economy, I will be shocked and awed!



You didn't answer the question any more than the original question was answered. Nice deflection there. See, it goes both ways.
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maryjane
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Report this Post10-05-2012 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

Lyndon Johnson tilled the soil in which the seeds were planted. Barack Obama has harvested the crop. It will take more than a generation to repair the rift that has been created in the American population.


Sorry--it was Harry Truman. LBJ just watered the weeds.

And, in 2008, at least by the end of 3rd qtr, virtually everyone with any kind of economic and fiscal knowledge knew full well just how desperate the situation was. Lehman had already fallen--the Dow had it's infamous 1000 pt drop, The Big 3 (2 actually) were already begging in Congress, US GDP had already begun contracting (fully discussed here and elsewhere) and TARP was already being proposed.
Anyone who DIDN'T know were were in full recession in 4th qtr 2008 is a moron. Anyone who believed it would be easy and quick to fix is a double moron and grossly un-informed or simply outright lying.

Did ANY of you bother watching or reading the financials or economic reports in 4th qtr 2008?

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-05-2012).]

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-05-2012 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

You didn't answer the question any more than the original question was answered. Nice deflection there. See, it goes both ways.


I was pretty clear that was obvious.

Yes, if Obama wins re-election and turns the economy around I will be impressed and I won't blame him anymore.

Now let's see you do it. If Romney wins the election, and turns the economy around, you won't blame Republicans anymore.
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