quote Originally posted by TK: In conclusion - let's stop with the "government overthrow" argument and figure out why we are seeing more spree killings.

Probably it doesnt cause enough arguments or further agendas

quote Originally posted by TK: How are you defining as "nothing"? My point is that the argument that citizens need to be armed to defend themselves against the government was made moot long, long ago. That ship has sailed so it's a silly argument to make. Sounds good but it doesn't overcome the facts -we are severely under-armed in a conflict with the government. Are there any law enforcement officers or government agents that actually think "we need to leave them alone, they have guns!"? No, they just get bigger weapons. The arms owned by the majority of citizens will not overpower the government. Of course, we can again run a guerrilla war and be a constant annoyance but in the end it's very unlikely we can outlast them. It was one thing to do it when the arms where equal, but they ain't anymore by any stretch. The fact that various founding father's said it was important for the citizens to be armed to throw out the government if they went too far is of zero value today other than philosophically. Anyone proposing an attack on Washington, DC? Only an idiot. Of course if the military and other armed agencies join the citizens, then we certainly could throw them out but at that point our consumer guns will be of little consequence. I do not at any level support the restriction of gun ownership although I do think there is a limit on what "arms" someone can possess, but my threshold is well above what is practical to own (I don't want to citizens to have nuclear arms for example.) Fully auto? Sure. Howitzer? Maybe not. One-on-one violence in America is declining but we are seeing an increase in spree killing. That is the problem to be solved. Restricting gun ownership won't solve that. But the number of spree killings is so rare that we can't draw ANY statistical conclusions on the cause. We're only shooting in the dark (I made a pun!) In conclusion - let's stop with the "government overthrow" argument and figure out why we are seeing more spree killings.

Your logic has no place here...move along! I don't know how many times it can be said in how many different ways (I commend your wording BTW), they are too set in their thinking to realize the message. I guess it's a good thing their need for this battle is only working against them, as it shows their lack of reason. People without reason (see mentally unfit) will probably be on the list of people not allowed to possess certain weapons if not an outright ban for them. Keep going off all batshit crazy guys, I'm sure it's going to help your cause.

quote Originally posted by TK: One-on-one violence in America is declining but we are seeing an increase in spree killing. That is the problem to be solved. Restricting gun ownership won't solve that. But the number of spree killings is so rare that we can't draw ANY statistical conclusions on the cause. We're only shooting in the dark (I made a pun!) In conclusion - let's stop with the "government overthrow" argument and figure out why we are seeing more spree killings.

I've read and interesting article somewhere that stated the lack of mental health care and decline of mental institutions has ties to these spree killings.

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quote Originally posted by mptighe: Your logic has no place here...move along! I don't know how many times it can be said in how many different ways (I commend your wording BTW), they are too set in their thinking to realize the message. I guess it's a good thing their need for this battle is only working against them, as it shows their lack of reason. People without reason (see mentally unfit) will probably be on the list of people not allowed to possess certain weapons if not an outright ban for them. Keep going off all batshit crazy guys, I'm sure it's going to help your cause.

What you seam to think passes for logic I and others see as chicken sh!tt, sooo your "logic" is, I don't think I can win against these odds so let's talk about hunting and mass murders and to hell with the founding fathers and the body of laws and protections this country was founded on. I think those that follow this line of thinking are mentally challenged at best and spineless air pee'rs at worst. What other rights are you too chicken sh!tt to stand for?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Your logic has no place here...move along! I don't know how many times it can be said in how many different ways (I commend your wording BTW), they are too set in their thinking to realize the message. I guess it's a good thing their need for this battle is only working against them, as it shows their lack of reason. People without reason (see mentally unfit) will probably be on the list of people not allowed to possess certain weapons if not an outright ban for them. Keep going off all batshit crazy guys, I'm sure it's going to help your cause.

Fine. I will take my flail and find another sand box.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: What you seam to think passes for logic I and others see as chicken sh!tt, sooo your "logic" is, I don't think I can win against these odds so let's talk about hunting and mass murders and to hell with the founding fathers and the body of laws and protections this country was founded on. I think those that follow this line of thinking are mentally challenged at best and spineless air pee'rs at worst. What other rights are you too chicken sh!tt to stand for?

That would make sense if I was the big bad Democrat trying to take all your guns. Unfortunately I'm not one of them, and so far no one has tried to come to your door and take anything. You can call me what you want, but I'm not the one trying to be an internet tough guy. Keep up the good work explaining why people like you should be able to have fully automatic assault rifles.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Probably more me than you, but since we seem to agree then yeah you're probably on the list too.

No, he responded to your reply to me. My "logic".

Nerferder!

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quote Originally posted by mptighe: Your logic has no place here...move along! I don't know how many times it can be said in how many different ways (I commend your wording BTW), they are too set in their thinking to realize the message. I guess it's a good thing their need for this battle is only working against them, as it shows their lack of reason. People without reason (see mentally unfit) will probably be on the list of people not allowed to possess certain weapons if not an outright ban for them. Keep going off all batshit crazy guys, I'm sure it's going to help your cause.

I think most folk who do possess firearms or enjoy the right of Americans to do so, would rather the focus be on why we have people on "kiling sprees". It just seems these legislations keep popping up.
Framing people as frantic or unstable is a tactic that is fairly transparent.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: That would make sense if I was the big bad Democrat trying to take all your guns. Unfortunately I'm not one of them, and so far no one has tried to come to your door and take anything. You can call me what you want, but I'm not the one trying to be an internet tough guy. Keep up the good work explaining why people like you should be able to have fully automatic assault rifles.

No, what you have is a lack of understanding of historical president and are jumping on the bandwagon of favor to infringe rights over an tragedy that has NOTHING to do with the restrictions the government you so trust is trying to cram down the citizenries throats.

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: I've read and interesting article somewhere that stated the lack of mental health care and decline of mental institutions has ties to these spree killings.

Case in point.

quote Originally posted by TK: No, he responded to your reply to me. My "logic". Nerferder!

I surrender, YOU are the chicken **** . Whew I thought I was gonna have to buy a plane ticket and go whup some ass to prove my manhood for a second.

quote Originally posted by TK: You calling me chicken **** ?

If the shoe fits wear it proud.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I think most folk who do possess firearms or enjoy the right of Americans to do so, would rather the focus be on why we have people on "kiling sprees". It just seems these legislations keep popping up. Framing people as frantic or unstable is a tactic that is fairly transparent.

Yup the guy behind Sandy Hook wasn't unstable and the people FREAKING THE **** OUT, and claiming that it's civil war time because the US Government is going to try to repeal the Second Amendment so they can then repeal the First Amendment or enslave us all when no one has made and credible threat to do so, are all perfectly stable and calm rational people.

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quote Originally posted by 2.5: Case in point.

There isn't enough commonality to draw that conclusion. Sure, some are obviously crazy but that doesn't necessarily point to them being a danger. And as we all know, crazies are able to act not-crazy when necessary. There are far more examples of people that seemed totally normal to everyone in their day to day lives that blew a fuse and took a bunch of people out. Only in hindsight and digging deeper were any signs of "crazy" found. Crazy can kick in anytime.

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quote Originally posted by Red88FF: No, what you have is a lack of understanding of historical president and are jumping on the bandwagon of favor to infringe rights over an tragedy that has NOTHING to do with the restrictions the government you so trust is trying to cram down the citizenries throats.

You don't even know who you're pissed at. I haven't proposed anything specific be done, I've made fun of the people who are all up in arms about something that hasn't even been attempted, people like that Alex guy in the Piers video. Go pee on a Democrat politician's lawn or something. Going all wackadoo on me doesn't do anytihng but make you look like one of the people that needs to be "evaluated". Or, are they evaluating you and watching you now through your television? I can never keep it straight.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-11-2013).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You don't even know who you're pissed at. I haven't proposed anything specific be done, I've made fun of the people who are all up in arms about something that hasn't even been attempted, people like that Alex guy in the Piers video. Go pee on a Democrat politician's lawn or something. Going all wackadoo on me doesn't do anytihng but make you look like one of the people that needs to be "evaluated". Or, are they evaluating you and watching you now through your television? I can never keep it straight.

You know, this isn't going to look good on your Texan Permanent Record. Here, it's attached to our 3rd grade Mensa scores.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: and so far no one has tried to come to your door and take anything.

Sorry just had to respond to this part too. So that is when we are supposed to stand up huh? Is that the line YOU draw and their is no danger ion your mind up until that point? Kinda too late then.

quote Originally posted by TK: Only in hindsight and digging deeper were any signs of "crazy" found.

I suppose crazy is subjective. But say it were true all these people had something in common woudl the answer be to remove that thing they had in common? What if for example it was having no father in their life, or a childhood of abuse, or a childhood of being spoiled, or a childhood filled with no reponsibility only 12 hour playstation Resident Evil marathons. What will we do? I suppose when government starts talking about taking away those freedoms we would speak up about it then?

What would your idea be of a reason? Maybe it shoudl be in another thread I'm not sure. But really I think this topic already was in a few threads. Causes, ideas of causes etc.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: If the shoe fits wear it proud.

Why am I chicken **** ?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You don't even know who you're pissed at. I haven't proposed anything specific be done, I've made fun of the people who are all up in arms about something that hasn't even been attempted, people like that Alex guy in the Piers video. Go pee on a Democrat politician's lawn or something. Going all wackadoo on me doesn't do anytihng but make you look like one of the people that needs to be "evaluated". Or, are they evaluating you and watching you now through your television? I can never keep it straight.

Fun to stir the pot isnt it? Frame people as whacko? Its not very becoming.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You don't even know who you're pissed at. I haven't proposed anything specific be done, I've made fun of the people who are all up in arms about something that hasn't even been attempted, people like that Alex guy in the Piers video. Go pee on a Democrat politician's lawn or something. Going all wackadoo on me doesn't do anytihng but make you look like one of the people that needs to be "evaluated". Or, are they evaluating you and watching you now through your television? I can never keep it straight.

Baloney, I am pissed at complacent overly trusting dupes that see problems where there are none, see solutions where there are none, and fail to see the obvious fallacies in there tired talking points. Well, like YOU.

quote Originally posted by TK: How are you defining as "nothing"? My point is that the argument that citizens need to be armed to defend themselves against the government was made moot long, long ago. That ship has sailed so it's a silly argument to make. Sounds good but it doesn't overcome the facts -we are severely under-armed in a conflict with the government.

You miss the point.
It doesn't matter that the military outguns the population. An armed populace is not easily quelled. Had Germany tried to extinguish the Jews in WWII without disarming them first - sure they still would have likely had the firepower and armament to do it, but there would have been heavy casualities on the German side as well.

Putting down an armed insurrection will not only incur losses on both sides, but the heavy losses can also turn public opinion against a totaliarian regime, possibly leading to more people resisting or world opinion leading to global intervention.

Finally, it means you can't easily enslave a population that resists. Sure, you can kill them, but dead people don't pay taxes. It's not in a government's best interest to kill it's people. It's far better to keep them pacified with bread and circuses so they keep producing, consuming and filling government coffers.

It's a much bigger deterrant than whether or not a revolt could ever succeed. Much like a nuclear arsenal, it's the deterrant. If you ever have to use it - you've already lost anyway.

Now, if you want to look at the real cause - do some research on the mass shootings and look at how many of them were on psychotropic drugs.

quote Originally posted by TK: Why am I chicken **** ?

I'm not sure on that. I think you just dont see a sign to be concerned yet, and Red does.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I suppose crazy is subjective. But say it were true all these people had something in common woudl the answer be to remove that thing they had in common? What if for example it was having no father in their life, or a childhood of abuse, or a childhood of being spoiled, or a childhood filled with no reponsibility only 12 hour playstation Resident Evil marathons. What will we do? I suppose when government starts talking about taking away those freedoms we would speak up about it then? What would your idea be of a reason? Maybe it shoudl be in another thread I'm not sure. But really I think this topic already was in a few threads. Causes, ideas of causes etc.

I agree with you. I think only in extreme cases can we be preemptive. One person's crazy is another person's brilliance. There will never be a checklist. And if we allow it, it will engulf more and more people that will likely NEVER do something is terrible. A parent is often the first to sense something is wrong but often the last to act. I think a parent should have to the ability to put their kid on a "Don't ever sell them a weapon" list and have it stick but few would. It's a tough call.

I sadly think these events will be something will have to live with. What ever logic we apply will just be skirted by whatever is motivating these people. I would hope the media would make these killers non-people by not mentioning their names but that will never happen. Too much advertizing to sell.

Seriously, I don't have an answer.

quote Originally posted by TK: There will never be a checklist. And if we allow it, it will engulf more and more people that will likely NEVER do something is terrible. .

I think a way to think about the people concerned with gun control would be to take your statement I quoted and realize that that is what they are concerned with. IMO

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Learn your history (since you were probably never taught it in the public school system): http://constitutionalistnc....er-leftist/id14.html

Never attended one....and I was pretty good in history.

Nope....I'm a University of Chicago Laboratory School brat from 1st grade thru high school.

GO MAROONS!!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You miss the point. ...

I believe if haven't missed the point. There is no stopping government firepower with consumer guns. If their goal is to take me, you, us, everyone out, they can and they can do it from a distance no gun will reach. That is my point. That day is gone. Threatening the government with gun violence is silly. We can be a guerrilla annoyance at best. I understand how painful and depressing it is to come to grips with that. I do agree that there is some tipping point (to your killing all of your tax payers.) But I don't know where that is.

I just not willing to over-estimate our abilities to actually take them on if it came to that.

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quote Originally posted by TK: I believe if haven't missed the point. There is no stopping government firepower with consumer guns. If their goal is to take me, you, us, everyone out, they can and they can do it from a distance no gun will reach. That is my point. That day is gone. Threatening the government with gun violence is silly. We can be a guerrilla annoyance at best. I understand how painful and depressing it is to come to grips with that. I do agree that there is some tipping point (to your killing all of your tax payers.) But I don't know where that is. I just not willing to over-estimate our abilities to actually take them on if it came to that.

Some call that a realistic look at the outcome of confrontation,some will call it something less flattering. If you are unwilling to defend the second amendment due to thinking it is unimportant and or outdated, or we just can’t win, that is certainly your choice. It does not change what the second amendment is there for.

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quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Baloney, I am pissed at complacent overly trusting dupes that see problems where there are none, see solutions where there are none, and fail to see the obvious fallacies in there tired talking points. Well, like YOU.

See, here's the rub. I don't trust them any more than you do, but obviously for different reasons. The difference is I'm not waging war AGAINST OTHER CITIZENS on an online car forum because the government MIGHT do something that's pretty farfetched. Are they going to over-react to recent events? Sure. Will it balance out eventually? Probably. Do you know what they're going to do? No. Will you balance out eventually? Maybe.

Get pissed at me all you want. I have a life to live, a business to run, kids to raise, etc. I haven't seen anything that looks to jeopardize that any worse than it already is at the moment, so I'm going to focus on the issues at hand. This doesn't mean I'm obtuse, it means I'm a realist. If you want to react to every single perceived threat imaginable, go for it. When people show up at my door and demand to disarm me, or when I see that a plan has actually been made to do so, then I'll decide how to react. Like TK said, it's not like we really have the weapons to win in an out and out battle, so if people show up carrying M16's and they want my 9 mm, rather than having them shoot up my house and kill my kids, I'll probably be handing it over.

You're going to have to forgive me if I don't start hording firearms and ammunition and moving my family to a bunker to get ready for outright war with a superiorly armed government BECAUSE YOU SAY. That clear it up a bit? You make your decisions, I'll make mine. Let me know when your appearance on Doomsday Preppers will be, I'll DVR it.

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quote Originally posted by V8 Vega: *snip*

We don't need another reason. Our right is clearly and unquestionably protected by the very foundation of this country. Its really as simple as that and no further 'justification' is required. Everything else discussed is just fodder for the anti-gun movement to twist around.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: See, here's the rub. I don't trust them any more than you do, but obviously for different reasons. The difference is I'm not waging war AGAINST OTHER CITIZENS on an online car forum because the government MIGHT do something that's pretty farfetched. Are they going to over-react to recent events? Sure. Will it balance out eventually? Probably. Do you know what they're going to do? No. Will you balance out eventually? Maybe.

Then why are you doing it? no really.

I only know what they have said they are planning to do, more worthless bans, demonizing law abiding people threats of executive orders too? and if calling me unbalanced makes you feel better, well doesn't bother me much so have fun.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: That is what they said in Germany just before millions were slaughtered. ( Or Russia, China, Iraq.... ) Hell, it was said in this country in the 20's when the clamp down first started, ( and in an incremental fashion ever since ). Don't ever underestimate the power of a government to suppress its people or you will be the one they suppress.. Freedom requires constant diligence, and apathy driven by a misplaced feeling of "it cant happen to me" only has one outcome in the long run. And that outcome is not good for the people. Besides, what makes our society any better than the countless ones that have fallen in this same way through history? We are watching the same pattern unfold, but far too many people are blind to what is happening.

Were you there to know what was said and what wasn't? Can you say how it went down with certainty? I don't underestimate, especially people's tendencies to read into a situation to try to justify their viewpoints. Sorry man, you're as clueless as everyone else (including me) when it comes to this. I'll take my own instincts over pretty much anyone's. It's ok to be you, but being mad at people who are being "not you" (this isn't necessarily directed at you personally) isn't productive, and usually defeats their own purpose.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I'm not really calling you unbalanced, but ..........

Heh