quote Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: ..Would that really make me feel better?

That is why real justice is justice and not revenge. Its not about anyone feeling better, it is about punishment for a crime. Thats why we have a justice system and a jury, that is what they are supposed to do.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I can understand the emotions behind what happened, and sympathize with the murderer. But, I can't say it's okay. It's not.

I agree.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 02-14-2013).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: According to your own statistics, the odds of him doing good from now on wouldn't be favorable. 2 DUIs get ya mandantory jail time many places, yet 90% of those don't learn, and get yet a 3rd one. What if he went to jail for this deadly accident, then got out, had another one--back to jail, and drove under the infuence yet again and had a 3rd deadly DUI accident?

That's true, but now, we'll never know. I guess that's my point.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: We're all looking at this in hindsight. Unless we've experienced something like this ourselves, we can't say what we would do. Walking 250 feet to get a weapon and use it does not take long, particularly if you are just beginning to process the grief that ensues from violently losing one's children.

I can't say what I would do, because I've never been in that situation. But if I had done that, I would know that what I did was wrong. I'm just saying, it ain't okay.

Very tragic.

I can sure understand the fathers reaction but would be much more likely to side with him if he had beat him to death right then and there.

The article seamed far more into the shooting than the accident. Not much onfo there other than the guy was theoretically drunk. Who knows, might be the family that was at fault here, doing something stupid on the side of a dark narrow road, or out in the middle, they never told us what happened. Just because he was drunk does not automatically make it his fault. A revenge shooting and a drunk driver is not much to go on.

That was tragic and what he did was wrong…

However… If I were in his shoes at that time and had access to a weapon, I would of done the exact same wrong…

He has a good case for temporary insanity. I don’t in anyway condone what he did, all I can say as a parent is I understand where that reaction came from.

It's very sad.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: The article seamed far more into the shooting than the accident.

Of course.

The father did what the courts were unwilling to do: stop this man from injuring or killing any more people with his choice to drive drunk. He took a killer off the streets. I have the utmost sympathy for the father and would have likely done the same thing myself. Just recently I had a friend killed by some drunken indian who led the police on a lengthy high speed chase before slamming into my friends SUV, killing her and her soon to be born baby. The thing is, being as the kid is an indian, he will likely do little to no jail time because of his race, and will be back on the streets in no time putting others lives at risk. It's just too bad someone wasn't able to put a bullet, or a dozen bullet, in this scumbag as well.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: so then you should let the burgler rob you and wait for the police to arrest him so he can have his day in court?

Hey look, compairing two things that are nothing alike and have nothing to do with each other to make some kind of point, that has no bearing on this situation.. Nice job! If you want to start an argument, you need to dig a little deeper, didn't work here. Next time at least make sure your subject you bring up for argument is at least similar too the topic being discussed..

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: How did the father know the driver was drunk?

In most cases, that's pretty obvious and unmistakeable.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If you believe in America, The Constitution, This Country, etc, etc., then you believe in The Rule Of Law. You cannot take the law into your own hands. It's one of the main things that makes America America. It makes me feel stupid to have to remind good men of that, time & time again.

Of course, after seeing his two sons run over, he probably didn't care anymore. Though, now his two other children and wife will grow up with a father in jail?

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Hey look, compairing two things that are nothing alike and have nothing to do with each other to make some kind of point, that has no bearing on this situation.. Nice job! If you want to start an argument, you need to dig a little deeper, didn't work here. Next time at least make sure your subject you bring up for argument is at least similar too the topic being discussed..

i made quite a good comparison im sorry you lack the ability to see that.

"broken-down pickup truck along a dark, narrow, rural road."

As+h0le parent fails to consider his fault in accident that kills his children and becomes judge, jury, and executioner.

I know it hurts but, the dead guy could have been any driver coming down the road, always think before you act.

Monday morning quaterbacking.

Tragedy on both sides.
I lost a good friend many years ago, he was changing a tire on the side of the road and someone side swiped him and the car. Just a stupid accident, I know his wife would have liked to put the guy in the ground next to him but the facts are facts. It was just an accident.
It wasn't even his car, he pulled over and was helping a stranger that was stranded.
All of our lives are poorer for it, but ending the other guy wouldn't bring him back. I can only hope that all involved lived a better life in spite of it.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:. All of our lives are poorer for it, but ending the other guy wouldn't bring him back. I can only hope that all involved lived a better life in spite of it.

Amen.


No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.

Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

~ John Donne~

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 02-14-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Monkeyman: Doesn't matter if he walked 20 feet or 20 miles to his house. The fact that what he did wasn't pretty much instantaneous means it's not "in the heat of the moment". If he had the gun on his person or even in the car, maybe. We'll see.

Think of it this way, you have just seen your 2 children practically cut in half that right there would put anyone in shock. Then you walk the few yards to your home to call the police or maybe tell your wife that her 2 sons are dead. Now you are even more pissed off and still in shock, and go off the deep end and see your gun. You grab it and remember you are still in shock from seeing you’re your TWO sons cut in half by some drunk underage driver.

You are still in shock and you return to the accident only to see your TWO sons hanging there almost cut in half, blood everywhere, your son’s blood. Now shock turns to rage

While as I already said I don’t know what I would have done I think under that scenario I would have put a bullet in the ass myself. Screw the consequences.

I would also be willing to bet you would do more time than the person who deliberately killed YOUR 2 sons. Why is that even possible?

I still think the drunk by law should have gotten his day in court, but I also think the father should as well.

We still don’t know if the truck had its flashers or lights on, that may come out in the trial and would anyone not have them on in this situation?

Like I said Shock makes you not right in the head. Ever been in shock?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Justice was served,,as a younger man I would have strangled him,going by my previous activities.
Now at 70 years old ,I,m much mellower?? I might still strangle Him
it is a tragedy.., a queer moslested my nephew, & it took a few men to pull my hands away from his neck.after i beat the queer out of him, there are still men in America, who react like a man !!

Slow down, Steve. Yes, I've been in shock and yes, I've seen some "bad" things. The guys wife and other kids were in the truck so he didn't have to go home to tell them. My guess is (and it's only a very uneducated guess) that he went home to get his gun. That's premeditation according to most states legal systems. You can't have premeditation and "temporary insanity" at the same time. Either you knew what you were doing or you didn't. Just because you're really super pissed and upset, that doesn't mean legally you're "temporarily insane" or have diminished capacity in any way.

Would I have done the same thing? God willing, no but I guess it would be possible. Will the courts see it as "temporary insanity" or justifiable homicide? No way. Unless he pleads to a lesser charge (like manslaughter), he'll be prosecuted for murder. If the prosecutor is smart, he'll let him plead guilty to manslaughter as it would be fairly easy to sway a jury in a case like this. I doubt he'd be convicted for murder even though, by law, that's exactly what it is.

I feel bad for the father. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: ..there are still men in America, who react like a man !!

Much of the time it is important to do more than just react.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Much of the time it is important to do more than just react.

General George Armstrong Custer: We're Americans, we don't plan, we do!



steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: there are still men in America, who react like a man !!

He broke the law & murdered a man.
He then hid the gun and denied doing it.
Being a criminal & a lier is not what makes a man.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: .. by some drunk underage driver.

I really want to know how the father determined that on the spot.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: Justice was served,,as a younger man I would have strangled him,going by my previous activities. Now at 70 years old ,I,m much mellower?? I might still strangle Him it is a tragedy.., a queer moslested my nephew, & it took a few men to pull my hands away from his neck.after i beat the queer out of him, there are still men in America, who react like a man !!

Stan I hear you, it wouldn't make it right but the police would have found me holding my children weeping. The other guy would probably be dead or not moving anymore.
Either way I would need a lot of help after it was all said and done.

React I would, regret yes but I would still react.
Let me tell you about the time I jumped out of a moving car and pushed it out of raising water to save the rest of the passengers
(Yes one of them was a dark haired lass with smoldering eyes and an ass that wouldn't quit, ok not quite the same thing but I am impulsive that way)

quote Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: I really want to know how the father determined that on the spot.

I will not fool myself by thinking that the father cared weather the person was a kid, drunk, white, black, brake malfunction, oil patch in road, etc. etc.
He just wanted to kill the guy that hit (i'm not even sure he knew his kids were dead at the time, as well as why was he not admineristing CPR instead of satiating his own selfish anger) his kids.

I'll bet he wasn't thinking justice, he was thinking revenge.
Before he even knew any facts past "He hit my kids".
This guy is no hero or "real American".

To those that say they don't know what they would do, but probibly the same thing if "they just lost it".
You do realize that you just gave yourself permission to "lose it"?
And with that, all the excuse you need.

And just to be clear, I would never say that I would not kill a man that layed a hand on my family.
I may or may not.
But It will not be because "I just lost it".
I will know exactly what I am doing.
I'm no robot.
And I will admitt to it and take my lumps.
I'm no criminal or coward like someone who trys to hide it.

And for those that think this guy did the right thing and also believe in God; When this guy stands before his maker, will God think it was "OK"?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 02-15-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I will not fool myself by thinking that the father cared weather the person was a kid, drunk, white, black, brake malfunction, oil patch in road, etc. etc. He just wanted to kill the guy that hit (i'm not even sure he knew his kids were dead at the time, as well as why was he not admineristing CPR instead of satiating his own selfish anger) his kids. I'll bet he wasn't thinking justice, he was thinking revenge. Before he even knew any facts past "He hit my kids". This guy is no hero or "real American". To those that say they don't know what they would do, but probibly the same thing if "they just lost it". You do realize that you just gave yourself permission to "lose it"? And with that, all the excuse you need. And just to be clear, I would never say that I would not kill a man that layed a hand on my family. I may or may not. But It will not be because "I just lost it". I will know exactly what I am doing. I'm no robot. And I will admitt to it and take my lumps. I'm no criminal or coward like someone who trys to hide it. And for those that think this guy did the right thing and also believe in God; When this guy stands before his maker, will God think it was "OK"?

There are too many anologies here to be written by Boondawg.

Just being observant, but you pretty much are against pidgeon holeing folks, and I find this last post to be strewn with that.

Nobody on this forum knows what the guy was thinking, or if he even was.

Not a real American? Hero no, American I believe I read so.

No excuses here. I still stand by my statements that make me not a "real American".

Nobody knows just what they will do in said situation. Nobody.

If there were to be a god, how would you know what he thinks? Perhaps this was his intention all along, and those that interpreted his words misunderstood?

Food for thought. Not attacking you.

American, African, Afganastan... We are all human and my God forbid lets hope we are not tested.

Someone who has zero sympathy for drunk drivers I sympathize with this father, i don't condone murder but i'm not sure if i could take the high road if something like this happened to my family.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Just being observant,

Not very, in this case.
See below.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: but you pretty much are against pidgeon holeing folks, and I find this last post to be strewn with that.

Show me where.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Nobody on this forum knows what the guy was thinking, or if he even was.

I never said I did.
Only that "I bet...."

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Not a real American? Hero no, American I believe I read so.

I was refering to Stans comment about there still being "real" men in America because he killed someone (retribution?).

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: If there were to be a god, how would you know what he thinks?

I never said I did.
I only asked.

These questions don't seem very observant of what I wrote.
Just an observation. Not attacking you.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 02-15-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I will not fool myself by thinking that the father cared weather the person was a kid, drunk, white, black, brake malfunction, oil patch in road, etc. etc. He just wanted to kill the guy that hit (i'm not even sure he knew his kids were dead at the time, as well as why was he not admineristing CPR instead of satiating his own selfish anger) his kids.

So the posters in here that have said they wouldn't doubt themselves if they did the same thing, would the person that killed your kid have to be drunk? Or at least negligent somehow? Or doesn't it matter- you kill my kid, I try kill you no matter what?

And would you plead temporary insanity to avoid going to prison?

I guess I can't see myself ever doing something like the father in the story did, but I don't have children so maybe my opinion doesn't really count for much.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: ...

Responding to let you know that I will NOT get into it with you about this. No way. No how. No possible good can come out of it.

Peace

The father was, without a doubt, WRONG to shoot the driver. By doing that, he showed that his reactions were all about HIM, and not his dead and dying sons. He changed from being a distraught father to a selfish bastard.

It was not "My sons are DEAD."


It was: "Somebody killed MY sons."


So Dad feels HE is entitled to revenge. Not justice. Don't kid yourselves. No justice was done here, just cold, hard, calculated revenge. And it was easy to do. After all, the driver was drunk. And after decades of demonizing drunk driving, MADD and the Safety Nazis have their wishes. A drunk driver is less than a human being, and no longer deserves to be treated as one. Certainly not due his Civil Rights that every one of us defends to the bitter end.

All of you who say: "I would've done the same." or "He was drunk, and deserved it." are just making it all about YOU. YOU just appointed yourself judge, jury, and executioner. And you're not any good at it. I don't want you to live in the same country as me, if you think you can do that whenever it strikes your fancy. So, take your gun, and use it to remove another murderer from our streets. Because that's all you'll be.

quote Originally posted by Zeb: The father was, without a doubt, WRONG to shoot the driver. By doing that, he showed that his reactions were all about HIM, and not his dead and dying sons. He changed from being a distraught father to a selfish bastard. It was not "My sons are DEAD." It was: "Somebody killed MY sons." So Dad feels HE is entitled to revenge. Not justice. Don't kid yourselves. No justice was done here, just cold, hard, calculated revenge. And it was easy to do. After all, the driver was drunk. And after decades of demonizing drunk driving, MADD and the Safety Nazis have their wishes. A drunk driver is less than a human being, and no longer deserves to be treated as one. Certainly not due his Civil Rights that every one of us defends to the bitter end. All of you who say: "I would've done the same." or "He was drunk, and deserved it." are just making it all about YOU. YOU just appointed yourself judge, jury, and executioner. .

Somebody gets it.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 02-15-2013).]

One thing is for sure. The guy will never drive drunk again. (or drive at all for that matter.)

Some of the older members on the forum may remember Gary Plauche of Louisiana. This was big news in 1984.
He shot and killed a child molester at the Baton Rouge Airport. The shooting was filmed by a tv crew waiting for the police to bring the molester back from California. The video has been on youtube for years now, and show the shooting clearly. It was a remarkable shot, considering the nerves that must have been involved.
He pleaded no contest to manslaughter, and was sentenced to five years probation and 300 hours of community service work. As the judge determined that sending Plauche to jail would not help anyone, and that there was virtually no risk of him committing another crime.
This was definitely premeditated murder, but when harm to children is the issue, the law seem to become a lot more flexible, or forgiving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._Plauche#cite_note-4

quote Originally posted by commerce: Some of the older members on the forum may remember Gary Plauche of Louisiana. This was big news in 1984. He shot and killed a child molester at the Baton Rouge Airport. The shooting was filmed by a tv crew waiting for the police to bring the molester back from California. The video has been on youtube for years now, and show the shooting clearly. It was a remarkable shot, considering the nerves that must have been involved. He pleaded no contest to manslaughter, and was sentenced to five years probation and 300 hours of community service work. As the judge determined that sending Plauche to jail would not help anyone, and that there was virtually no risk of him committing another crime. This was definitely premeditated murder, but when harm to children is the issue, the law seem to become a lot more flexible, or forgiving. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._Plauche#cite_note-4

I absolutly do remember that.
Just referenced it the other day in a conversation about this very thing.

I have always been amazed at the lightness of that sentence.
I mean, it was a premeditated murder for revenge.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I absolutly do remember that. Just referenced it the other day in a conversation about this very thing. I have always been amazed at the lightness of that sentence. I mean, it was a premeditated murder for revenge.

Premeditated murder or the justice that the courts were scared to deliver?

If Plauche had gotten to court, the court may or may not have delivered justice.

He never got there. He was murdered on the way. That's not justice.

[This message has been edited by Zeb (edited 02-16-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: i made quite a good comparison im sorry you lack the ability to see that.

I have to agree with him, its 2 different unrelated situations. If you wanted to compare a ongoing break in to a drunk driver trying to run you down, sure. But as presented, no its a ludicrous comparison.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Premeditated murder or the justice that the courts were scared to deliver?

He never made it to court.
And it wasn't even an eye for an eye.
A life was taken in payment of one that was not.
That is not justice, and the reason why vigalate justice does not work.

And Rule Of Law can be the only way.
You can not have people (personally connected, driven by emotion) taking the law into their own hands.
Everything in life must be delt with rationally.

And you do realize that our court punishments are of, by, & for the people?
If the majority of this country wants a death sentence for a particular crime, we have a system of making that become a reality.
Lynching is not that system.
All those other ways of justice have been tried.
And they have all brought us to the one we have today.

It will never be perfect, but justice must never be left to the whim of one man.
That is the way of rulers & masters.
Is that what everyone wants to go back too?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 02-16-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: So the posters in here that have said they wouldn't doubt themselves if they did the same thing, would the person that killed your kid have to be drunk? Or at least negligent somehow? Or doesn't it matter- you kill my kid, I try kill you no matter what? And would you plead temporary insanity to avoid going to prison? I guess I can't see myself ever doing something like the father in the story did, but I don't have children so maybe my opinion doesn't really count for much.

I also would never stoop to the level that this guy did and would want 'process' to take its due course.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: What about breakfast? /me ducks

Breakfast is ALWAYS an option!