quote A faith-healing couple serving probation for the death of their 2-year-old son is in trouble once again after a second child died. The 8-month-old son of Herbert and Catherine Schaible, fundamentalist Christians who believe in the power of prayer ahead of modern medicine, died last week, according to Philadelphia Police spokeswoman Jillian Russell. The couple have been serving a 10-year probation sentence in the 2009 death of 2-year-old Kent Schaible. At a hearing Monday, Philadelphia Judge Benjamin Lerner said the Schaibles violated the most important condition of their probation: to seek medical care for their remaining children. Authorities have yet to file criminal charges in the death of the child last week, after he suffered with diarrhea and breathing problems for days. But charges could be filed once authorities pinpoint how the boy died. An official cause of death is pending an autopsy, according to police. The child was taken to a funeral home by an as yet unknown individual and the undertaker alerted police, Russell said. In 2010, a jury convicted the Schaibles, who have seven other children, of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in Kent's death from pneumonia. The Schaibles were sentenced to probation over prison time. As part of their sentence, the Schaibles were required to arrange medical examinations for each of their children, to immediately consult with a doctor when a child became sick and to follow the doctor’s treatment recommendations. During their trial, the Schaibles' lawyers said the parents were targeted because their fundamentalist Christian beliefs espouse faith healing. Pennsylvania law says parents have a legal duty to protect their children's health and safety, although the law does not specify if or when medical care must be sought. Prosecutors said Kent could have been saved with basic medical care -- probably even over-the-counter medication -- but the couple relied on prayer instead. Defense attorneys argued that their clients did not know how sick the child was, and their beliefs played no role in their decision. When asked for comment outside his Rhawnhurst home Friday, Herbert Schaible, 44, told NBC10’s Chris Cato, “We don’t want to talk.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_...no-medical-care?lite

God told me to not be stupid. He gave us doctors and modern medicine to reduce our suffering.

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: God told me to not be stupid.

Billions didnt listen.

I believe in science not prayer. Jesus never reveled any science or medicine so I don't think praying to a dead person will help heal you nor give us advances in science and technology.

But I'm sure somebody will post the starving man in a boat analogy.

That is sad.

I really dont see a ligitimate reason why someone decides medicine is something inherently bad, or that they are not trusting God if they use it.

Also in regards to prayer, the answer is not always what we would like it to be.

Repeat offenders huh? Holy crap. These people are mentally ill. In fact...... never mind

God helps those who help themselves. This couple didn't help themselves at all.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I believe in science not prayer. Jesus never reveled any science or medicine so I don't think praying to a dead person will help heal you nor give us advances in science and technology.

Science ? Really ? Science ? Really ?
God invented science, .
Science never revealed proof that the universe was created out of a big bang which exploded from nothing. We don't have to debate science. Let's talk history. Even scientific history. When did an explosive force ever produce anything but mayhem ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Science ? Really ? Science ? Really ? God invented science, . Science never revealed proof that the universe was created out of a big bang which exploded from nothing. We don't have to debate science. Let's talk history. Even scientific history. When did an explosive force ever produce anything but mayhem ?

My bad. Posted on my phone. Revealed rather.

Let me know what Jesus did in the last 2000 years after his death that helped in any way bring about medicine in science?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...eed-God-set-off.html

"The Big Bang and the subsequent expansion of the Universe did not need God to set it off, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking suggested to an audience in California this week.

A combination of quantum theory and the theory of relativity would a better explain our existence than divine intervention, he told a packed auditorium at the California Institute of Technology."

We cannot dictate how God should answer prayer. He can work through doctors, etc. I have no doubt that this couple was sincere in their prayers. This is an unfortunate example of people not knowing enough about what they claim to believe.

I agree with not praying to dead people. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Jonathan

When will my faith get shaken ? When that particular couple's second child died because of their beliefs of faith healing, I need to ask when their faith gets shaken. I have my proof.

I am guessing some people believe "modern medicine" is the work of Satan (preventing the person from entering the kingdom of heaven... yada yada)...

I am guessing some people don't ?

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: We cannot dictate how God should answer prayer. He can work through doctors, etc. I have no doubt that this couple was sincere in their prayers. This is an unfortunate example of people not knowing enough about what they claim to believe. I agree with not praying to dead people. That doesn't make any sense at all. Jonathan

That is a very weak argument and it doesn't appear very logical. It is very easy to say that "God's Plan" is this and that, but the fact remains is that prayer healing does not work.

God doesn't work through Doctors either. It is so easy just to say that without any proof yet you ask everybody to believe it. What if that doctor was a non-believer, as many of them are and they healed a person who was ill, was that a work of God? Does God work through Atheist? Why does God work through some and not others or at certain times with some and not all the time? Why does God need to work through others, if proof is what people seek, you would think that God would take credit as Jesus did in his time, but not anymore. A God that is inconsistent and cruel enough to chooses winners and losers, especially for the last 2000-years since the death of Jesus the world isn't better because of him and his disappearance from the public eye, that nothing can be really showed for it, yet people are to tell me that I must believe without proof, must believe in his power, must believe that he works miracles.

I guess the boy that was bombed and subsequently died of his injuries in the Boston Marathon Bombing was an act of God, because God works through people. It was God's Plan for him to leave this earth and be welcomed into Heaven.

Yet Prayer from this family was stronger than any Christian on this forum. A couple that believes in God's Powers so faithfully that they want God to heal their children, yet God let them DIE!

Yeah! God is real alright! Jewish Fairytales isn't in my book as something worth believing in, especially since nothing is there to show for it but a bunch of believers who cannot have their own prayers answered.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 04-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: "The Big Bang and the subsequent expansion of the Universe did not need God to set it off, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking suggested to an audience in California this week.

The "Big Bang" is the most outrageous fairytale ever conceived. I can't believe people fell for that! All of the universe's matter was tightly compacted to the size of a pin head then exploded. Ummm....OK.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Wichita: "The Big Bang and the subsequent expansion of the Universe did not need God to set it off, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking suggested to an audience in California this week. A combination of quantum theory and the theory of relativity would a better explain our existence than divine intervention, he told a packed auditorium at the California Institute of Technology."

Two theories explain our existence, theories about how things work, things we dont even know how they got there?

"Dont need God."
It is a reoccuring statement. It is a strange statement when you think about it. Strange the need for the thought or statement as well.

---

"Indianapolis - New billboards go up in Indianapolis next week, telling drivers they don't need God. The signs target every side of the city as part of a nationwide campaign about living without religion.

The Center for Inquiry says it wants to reach out to the non-religious in a positive way.

"Our intent is not to offend anybody, just to get our message out," Boyd Wooden said."
http://www.wthr.com/story/1...ds-you-dont-need-god

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I feel sorry for you. I hope your eyes are opened to the truth before it is too late. What a wonderful testamony you will have and I'm sure you would be just as vocal with it! Jonathan

I have friends in Hell, so I will have company.

Just pray for me and I'll be ok.

stupid brainwashed people.. I hope whatever remaining kids they have are taken away for there own safety and their parents thrown in prison..

Ugh sometimes people are so damn stupid!

Do I believe in the power of prayer. You betcha. I've seen it first hand with my wife and cancer, or lack of for better words. I or anyone else can choose to explain it away all day,.... the tests readings were incorrect the first time, the pain was something else, the symptoms were being mocked, etc, etc, etc..... But again, I've seen it first hand and choose to believe, which is my prerogative.
However, for the many times that prayer was not answered, or at least in the way we thought it should have been, we were at the doctors.

------------------
When in doubt, replace everything!!!!

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I feel sorry for you. I hope your eyes are opened to the truth before it is too late. What a wonderful testamony you will have and I'm sure you would be just as vocal with it! Jonathan

Blind faith in something that can't be proven is, well stupid, and if you think everything was done by some creature who knows all and does all is also stupid. we live in the real world, you want to pray and ask god for help go ahead, me, i'll go to the doctors.

they have kept me alive so far, god hasn't done sh!t for me and if he even does exist he is doing one sh!tty job.

steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I'll give you the common sense answer that everyone already knew before coming in here...

It's ok to have faith, it's not ok to be stupid.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: When did an explosive force ever produce anything but mayhem ?

Correct.. If you knew anything about the universe, you would know, there is no such thing as "order" in the universe.. It quite literally is "mayhem"..

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I am guessing some people believe "modern medicine" is the work of Satan (preventing the person from entering the kingdom of heaven... yada yada)...

Some do. And who is to say they are wrong?

Reminds me of the serpent handling preacher who was bitten and died some time ago. And his dad had died of the same thing...

I guess the lord called them to his side because he wanted to improve the human genome.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: When did an explosive force ever produce anything but mayhem ?

Uh.. Do you know how the elements that make up your body were created?

quote Originally posted by FlyinFieros: I disagree completely.

You go on believing that. Don't let me stop you.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Just pray for me and I'll be ok.

Wichita, this is a GREAT idea!!

With your permission, I'll pray for your salvation every day.

With your permission, I'll change my signature to say "Pray for Wichita"

With your permission, I'll start a thread asking all Christians here to pray for you and to add you to their personal and church prayer lists.

With your permission, I'll PM a scripture or two every so often.


What do you say? Are you up to it? If prayer doesn't really work, you have nothing to loose!

I would appreciate a response posted in this thread.

Thank you for the opportunity,
Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Wichita, this is a GREAT idea!! With your permission, I'll pray for your salvation every day. With your permission, I'll change my signature to say "Pray for Wichita" With your permission, I'll start a thread asking all Christians here to pray for you and to add you to their personal and church prayer lists. With your permission, I'll PM a scripture or two every so often. What do you say? Are you up to it? If prayer doesn't really work, you have nothing to loose! I would appreciate a response posted in this thread. Thank you for the opportunity, Jonathan

I'll take that deal!

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Wichita, this is a GREAT idea!! With your permission, I'll pray for your salvation every day. With your permission, I'll change my signature to say "Pray for Wichita" With your permission, I'll start a thread asking all Christians here to pray for you and to add you to their personal and church prayer lists. With your permission, I'll PM a scripture or two every so often. What do you say? Are you up to it? If prayer doesn't really work, you have nothing to loose! I would appreciate a response posted in this thread. Thank you for the opportunity, Jonathan

You have my blessing and permission brotha.

I think that would be a great idea, and as you say, I have nothing to loose. Maybe Saul will turn into Paul again.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I think that would be a great idea, and as you say, I have nothing to loose. .

I know, right!

Somebody praying for me all the time?!
If even a tenth of it gets through, it's better then all those that don't give half a shizz about me!
Then if I can get 10 more to do it, and they get 10 more, well, you can see how big it gets real quick.
Pretty soon, i'm invincable!

Then I will have the power to punish all those that didn't give a shizz about me enough to pray for me!

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: I guess the lord called them to his side because he wanted to improve the human genome.

I was thinking along the same lines. They say God works in mysterious ways.

That said, if your religious beliefs result in the deaths of two of your children, then maybe it's time to re-examine those beliefs. But I'm betting these parents won't do that.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-23-2013).]

A good thing to pray for is wisdom.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I was thinking along the same lines. They say God works in mysterious ways. That said, if your religious beliefs result in the deaths of two of your children, then maybe it's time to re-examine those beliefs. But I'm betting these parents won't do that.

Does this family see those deaths as a bad thing? Their children are in heaven now (they believe). Just asking, as society looks at death as an end, while some believers see death as a beginning.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Does this family see those deaths as a bad thing? Their children are in heaven now (they believe). Just asking, as society looks at death as an end, while some believers see death as a beginning.

Death is always sad, it should not be longed for. But if you believe as Christians do, it is not the end. Like you said.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I know, right! Somebody praying for me all the time?! If even a tenth of it gets through, it's better then all those that don't give half a shizz about me! Then if I can get 10 more to do it, and they get 10 more, well, you can see how big it gets real quick. Pretty soon, i'm invincable! Then I will have the power to punish all those that didn't give a shizz about me enough to pray for me!

Wow, you'll quickly become a god yourself and won't have a need for God.
Awesome!!

Harvard Prayer Study 2006

Many - if not most - people believe that prayer will help you through a medical crisis such as heart bypass surgery. If a large group of people outside yourself, your family, and your friends add their prayers, that should be even more helpful, or so such reasoning goes.

Researchers have been trying to prove this and even to measure the effect of prayer. Since 1988, at least two studies have found that third-party prayers bestow benefits, but two others concluded that there are no benefits. These and other studies have been soundly criticized for flaws in both method and outcome. The fuzzy results goaded researchers to conduct the largest and most scientifically rigid investigation to date. It covered 1,802 people who underwent coronary bypass surgery at six different hospitals from Oklahoma City to Boston. The cost was $2.4 million, paid by the John Templeton Foundation and the Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation of Memphis.

In a clear setback for those who believe in the power of prayer, their prayers were not answered. Prayers offered by strangers did not reduce the medical complications of major heart surgery. Not only that, but patients who knew that others were praying for them fared worse than those who did not receive such spiritual support, or who did but were not aware of receiving it.


"We thought that the certainty of knowing about the prayers of outsiders would reduce complications that accompany bypass surgery," notes Jeffrey Dusek, an instructor in medicine at Harvard Medical School. "But the results were paradoxical."

Dusek and his colleagues are quick to say that the study results do not challenge the existence of God. Also, the investigators did not try to address such religious questions as the efficacy of one form of prayer over others, whether God answers intercessory prayers, or whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another, according to the Rev. Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.

Other participants in the study, who include researchers from Harvard Medical School and Harvard affiliates Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and the Mind/Body Medical Institute in Boston, agree. As do the teams from medical institutions in Oklahoma City, Washington, D.C., Memphis, Tenn., and Rochester, Minn.

Some skeptics believe that studying prayer wastes time and money because its reach goes beyond science. Dusek and Marek, scientist and clergyman, disagree. There's enough anecdotal evidence that prayer influences recovery after surgery and in other circumstance to take a scientific look at the results, they say. "Physicians and health-care providers want to understand if prayer can be used as part of medical treatment," Dusek points out. "In this example, could prayer be used in addition to drugs and other treatments to reduce the complications of coronary bypass surgery?"

The answer apparently is "no."

STEP up to pray

Known as STEP (Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer), it investigated patients undergoing coronary artery bypass surgery, wherein a vein is grafted into the heart to bypass clogged blood vessels. According to the STEP report, 350,000 people in the United States and 800,000 people worldwide have such grafts each year, making it one of the most common surgical procedures.

Researchers enrolled the first patients in STEP in 1998. Collection of data ended in 2001 and analyses of it were finished in 2005. People of any or no religious faith were eligible to participate. Those chosen included Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and people of no faith.

The 1,802 participants were divided into three groups of about 600 each, with a mean age of 64 years. One group received no prayers. A second group received prayers after being told that they may or may not be prayed for. Members of the third group were informed that others would pray for them for 14 days starting on the night before their surgery.

The prayers came from three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant. The investigators report that, "We were unable to locate other Christian, Jewish, on non-Christian groups that could receive the daily prayer list required for the study." Such lists provided the first name and initial of the last name of the patients.

The intercessors could pray in any way they wished but with limitations. Prayers started at a standardized time, lasted a given duration, and included the message "for successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications." This system provided a practical way to conduct the research, but limited its results to one type of prayer.

Many different kinds of complications can occur during, and for 30 days following the surgeries, such as abnormal heart rhythms. Among the group that knew outsiders were praying for them, researchers recorded 197 cardiac complications, compared with 187 and 158 in the other two groups. Eighteen percent of those who received outside prayer without their knowledge suffered major complications like heart attack or stroke, compared with only 13 percent of the group that went without such support.

In total, complications occurred in 59 percent of those who were prayed for, compared with 51 percent of those who received no prayers, a significant difference.

Deaths during the 30 days after surgery were similar across groups, 13 and 16 in the prayed-for group, 14 in the no-prayer group.

The big mystery is why there was an excess of complications in patients who knew all those people were praying for them. The researchers admit they have "no clear explanation."

One theory is that those who knew so many outsiders were praying for them felt a stressful anxiety to do well. "It might have made them uncertain, wondering, Am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" says Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center, who was part of the research group in Oklahoma City.

"We found increased amounts of adrenalin, a sign of stress, in the blood of patients who knew strangers were praying for them," notes Dusek, who is also associate research director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute. "It's possible that we inadvertently raised the stress levels of these people."

The full STEP report was published in the April 4 issue of the American Heart Journal. Herbert Benson, director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute and lead author of that report, notes it is not the last word on the effects of intercessory prayer. Questions raised by the study, he says, "will require additional answers."