Budhism and all other forms of religion are just that religion -this is because you have to do things to stay in good standings. Faith is of Jesus Christ - you do nothing but believe and follow Him in his teachings and turn your ways away from the evil one.
I would argue that there is a contradiction in these two sentences.
quote
Originally posted by CrazyDragn: The Bible was also passed down first hand.
Right from when the earth was created about 6600 years ago...
Have you ever played the game of telephone? Now do that over thousands of years with primitive semi-nomadic tribes and tell me what you think you'll get.
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09:53 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20687 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Confucius was before that time too yet he still lays where his heart stopped.
I CAN take you to Buhda's Grave, however - Jesus is not in his. Matter of fact, all those who claim to be the messiah are all in their graes still to this day - all but ONE.
They found Jesus's grave along with his family. The Israeli government has it sealed, so you can't open the box and see the bones of Jesus, much like the others you mentioned grave sites. But Jesus is in a tomb inside a box and you can go visit that site.
The only thing that is really missing is Noah's Ark. That boat must have either been striped down for its materials or never existed.
I just want to do a time check here. We're at the end of the hour. Should we reschedule for next week? I don't think we are going to close all of the action items in one meeting.
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11:49 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
They found Jesus's grave along with his family. The Israeli government has it sealed, so you can't open the box and see the bones of Jesus, much like the others you mentioned grave sites. But Jesus is in a tomb inside a box and you can go visit that site.
The only thing that is really missing is Noah's Ark. That boat must have either been striped down for its materials or never existed.
How long does it take for wood to rot and decay? 1000 years? 2000? 3000?
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11:51 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
It's just a story that is made up like many of them are. I can tell you the story of Superman or lets take Buddha for example. The day he was born Buddha he was able to talk and took seven steps. Buddha utter these words the day of his birth:
"I am chief of the world, Eldest am I in the world, Foremost am I in the world. This is the last birth. There is now no more coming to be."
Buddha also had miracles quite similar to Jesus. He healed people, he walked across water, he turned undrinkable water into clean drinkable water, he saw the future and also went to a deathless state where he left his earthbound body after he had his final meal with his disciples (last supper).
The story of Buddha is quite similar to Jesus, with the only exception is that the story of Buddha was before Jesus.
Besides that point. I have some questions for you.
Question: You speak of Angels. What are Angels? What do they look like? What do you do in heaven when you get there?
Stories are told. That neither makes them true or untrue.
If Buddha said this, "This is the last birth. There is now no more coming to be." He obviously got it wrong since you say Jesus came after him.
You cite the recorded "miracles" of Buddha but do you believe them? If you can, why can you not believe those told of Jesus? If you don't why give credit to them?
Angels are Heavenly beings. They are them and we are us. We DO NOT "become" angels when we reach Heaven.
I don't know what existance in Heaven will be like other than that there will be no sadness, no pain, no disease. Those details alone are all I need to realize I don't want to go to Hell and experience eternal torment.
Thinking about it like that, it could start to seem like slavery.
Once to are granted entrance to Heaven, can you ever do anything to be kicked out? Do you have free will in heaven? Because, if achieving Heaven is still no guarantee to everlasting peace & joy, then all it really is just more hoops to jump through. For eternity.
But you can get there with just your last dying breath. You can go your whole life sinning, then at the last moment, say you believe in Jesus and be at the pearly gates.
Sort of like Jesus's whole life didn't matter much, just the last year towards his death that matter.
You CAN get there with your last dying breath but not "just" your last breath. It will not be the words that save you, it will be the belief and conviction in your heart that drives you to cry out. If it is like that, yes, I believe you will be saved on your death bed. A prayer for salvation is not an insurance policy to be read at the last moment. If it were, it could be said that you saved yourself by your works ( timely reading of the prayer ). Not so.
You think that the person who lives his whole life as a rightous person, who gave to his church, who sacrificed, who resisted temptation gets the short end of the stick compared to the guy who lived his whole life doing exactly as he pleased til his final day. I say the death bed confession guy missed out on all those years of knowing God.
Jesus' WHOLE life mattered because He had to live the whole time without sin. That made Him worthy to be a fit sacrifice to God. God's plan is that the wages of sin is death. That's why they used to have burnt sacrifices. Blood had to be spilled to pay for sins. God allowed us to give up our best lamb, etc to pay for our sins. Once Jesus lived a sinless life, He became the "lamb" and His sacrifice of Himself was so great, it payed the price of ALL sin. The only catch is that you have to give Him the credit for it. If you believe he lived a sinless life then layed it down for you, and you believe he came from a virgin and is the Son of God, if you realize you have sinned and are not worthy of entry into Heaven, if you ask for forgivness and you ask Him to come into your heart, THEN YOU WILL BE SAVED.
They found Jesus's grave along with his family. The Israeli government has it sealed, so you can't open the box and see the bones of Jesus, much like the others you mentioned grave sites. But Jesus is in a tomb inside a box and you can go visit that site.
How do you know it was Jesus' family? Because they said so? Why do you not need irrefutable proof for that?
Maybe it is Jesus' family. Maybe they did create a box for His bones. What do you suppose they would have done with the empty box if He rose from the grave? I think it is not unreasonable to think they recycled it for another family member. To them it meant nothing, To them it was just a box. They had seen Jesus after His resurection so they knew there was no power in the box or any connection between it and Him. Also, the tomb that Jesus was placed in was a gift. It did not belong to Jesus' family. Perhaps they decided to return the favor by donating the burial box to another. I believe this scenario is completely plausible.
Is it possible to sin in Heaven? Is there free will in Heaven?
Can angels sin? Did Satan (a former angel) get kicked out of heaven for sinning? Did God know this would come to be, beforehand?
In essence, did God create Satan? If so, why? Why does God need Satan, or even allow his existence? How does it benefit God, or the cherished souls his much-loved children?
Why would you put evil in the same room as your children?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-05-2013).]
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01:32 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Wouldn't the logical answer be that it is just a story? Since we are on this subject of Noah, how did he have room to put 2 of every animal on that boat? What about the kangroo or other non-middle east animal? These are animals that people from that time never knew of yet they exist today. And what about dinosaurs and other extinct animals? Where they just victims of the flood? What about the "prehistoric" sea life? Why are they still not around, since they would have survived the loss of land? These are big holes in a document people take as historical fact.
For me, the story of the flood recounts the filling of the black sea with sea water. That would have been a "global" event to those in the area and it sure makes for a great story.... something only a god could do.
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Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
I'd say the logical answer is that they used it for firewood, housing materials, etc.
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02:02 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Is it possible to sin in Heaven? Is there free will in Heaven?
Can angels sin? Did Satan (a former angel) get kicked out of heaven for sinning? Did God know this would come to be, beforehand?
So, did God create Satan? If so, why? Why does God need Satan, or even allow his existence? How does it benefit God, or the cherished souls his much-loved children?
Why would you put evil in the same room as your children?
Good questions, but it does border on the unanswerable, like "Can God make a rock so big even He can't move it?"
But most of it is addressed by free will. Without free will, your followers/children/etc. have no choice and there's little meaning in their following. Have you ever dated someone or had a friend who was with you because they needed something, rather than someone who doesn't need you, but chooses to be with you. Which meant more to you? For there to be meaning, there has to be choice.
Everything isn't necessarily "good" or "evil." Much like hot and cold, there is not such thing as "cold" - only the absence of heat. The choice as I understand it is to accept God, or not. What we perceive as "evil" is simply the absence of God, or on a more non-religious level, the absence of "good."
If you tell a child that a hot stove will burn them, and then they touch it, did you burn them, or did they make a choice that lead to their being burned because they didn't heed your advice?
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02:18 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Formula 88, I ask myself why a being like god, who created the whole universe and is all-powerful and all-knowing, would need our adoration so much.
Not needs. Wants.
Think of the inventor of the battery operated monkey that bangs the cymbols together. That guy could create one that didn't have cymbols and just clapped his hands. The inventor would be pretty happy with himself for a while and whenever he felt down, he could turn on his clapping monkey. After a while, that doesn't work anymore because he realized that the monkey is MADE to applaud him. Now he wants something that can CHOOSE to applaud or not. The applause from something that can choose to or not is much more satisfying.
That is the way I think of God, the angels, and people. The angels were created to serve God with no choice. People were created to have a choice to praise Him. That is why our souls are so desireable to Him.
I thought it was common Christian dogma that Lucifer (as an angel) was the highest of all Angels before he was cast out with 1/3 of the angels that had chosen to follow Lucifer in his attempt to overthrow God because they were jealous of the unconditional love God showered on his favorite creation, humans, even above his own perfect angels.
I was looking for the source of the1/3 of angels wanting to kill God thing.
Are you more comfortable with overthrow?
But I contend it means the same thing. There can only be one God in Heaven. And Lucifer wanted to be it, and talked 1/3 of the angels into following him.
Would you agree that Christianity believes that was the series of events?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-05-2013).]
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07:42 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
But I contend it means the same thing. There can only be one God in Heaven. And Lucifer wanted to be it, and talked 1/3 of the angels into following him.
Would you agree that Christianity believes that was the series of events?
I'm not uncomfortable with kill. Overthrow is fine too. I was asking about the source of 1/3 of angels.
It is my understanding that Lucifer was an angel and he was the most beautiful creature in existance. He became boastful and prideful and did want to be God or at least God's equal. He was cast out of Heaven by God. I've heard of Satan's angels but I don't know where they came from. Were they other Heavenly angels that were also cast out at the same time? Were they new creatures created in Hell? I don't know. I would take the word of the Bible if I knew of the reference.
I'm not uncomfortable with kill. Overthrow is fine too. I was asking about the source of 1/3 of angels.
It is my understanding that Lucifer was an angel and he was the most beautiful creature in existance. He became boastful and prideful and did want to be God or at least God's equal. He was cast out of Heaven by God. I've heard of Satan's angels but I don't know where they came from. Were they other Heavenly angels that were also cast out at the same time? Were they new creatures created in Hell? I don't know. I would take the word of the Bible if I knew of the reference.
There's lots of references to it everywhere. No exact number, but a third is the most common held belief I have found about the number of angels that stood with Satan. Are these legit?
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-05-2013).]
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08:12 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
There's lots of references to it everywhere. No exact number, but a third is the most common held belief I have found about the number of angels that stood with Satan. Are these legit?
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Those are the ones I came up with also. I don't believe they tell of the original time that Lucifer was cast out. I believe this tells of an attack on Heaven by Satan.
A dragon appeared in Heaven - If this was when Lucifer was cast out, why did he suddenly appear to be a dragon first? He was very happy with his appearance and I doubt he would change it on his own.
The dragon stood before the woman ready to devour her child. Can we agree this is a reference to Jesus? Lucifer was cast out long before the birth of Jesus.
Michael fought the dragon - Lucifer wasn't called Satan, Devil, or dragon until after he was cast out. Until that time he was still Lucifer and still an angel.
Rev 12:9 shows us that the dragon, Satan, and Devil are all the same. It also calls him "old serpent" not new serpent. He had been in serpent form for some time at this point. It also says he had deceived the world. Lucifer had not done that while still an angel.
yes but who is on the light side and who is on the darkside
over time the religions are NOT a force for good or progress or even the general welfare or community health they are a reason to hate, and subdivide, people
I place all religions on the DARKSIDE sure some less then others but still all a shade of grey
rejection of superstitions is important as only then can one see things as they really are
to achieve the only kind of immortality we have [the dna lives on]
I find christian versions of heaven BORING IN THE EXTREME no thanks I bet he!! would be far more FUN
but I worry not at all as nether exist in reality rejection of superstitions is important as only then can one see things as they really are so please doNOT prey on me
So you say that Heaven doesn't exist, religion/faith is superstition, and Christianity is boring. So why do you go to the trouble to ask that no one prays for you? Afraid you might be wrong?
Next question, I've noticed this boring thread certainly has gotten your attention. Why are you not only READING a boring Christian discussion but POSTING IN IT? How strange!
Can you please explain for the group why you feel an uncontrolable urge to convince people that something DOESN'T EXIST? I can imagine you at Wal-Mart just before Easter! Do you go up and down the isles shouting "THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY!! THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY!!" as I picture you do? Why not? Isn't that also superstition? Don't you care about kids?
Wouldn't the logical answer be that it is just a story? Since we are on this subject of Noah, how did he have room to put 2 of every animal on that boat? What about the kangroo or other non-middle east animal? These are animals that people from that time never knew of yet they exist today. And what about dinosaurs and other extinct animals? Where they just victims of the flood? What about the "prehistoric" sea life? Why are they still not around, since they would have survived the loss of land? These are big holes in a document people take as historical fact.
For me, the story of the flood recounts the filling of the black sea with sea water. That would have been a "global" event to those in the area and it sure makes for a great story.... something only a god could do.
There are about 10 million species of modern animals (I'm not counting anything in the water). That would be 20 million animals on a boat. I'm not even counting the dinosaurs, because the Bible only depicts the world being like 6,500 years old to 10,000 years if you stretch it.
I don't even think modern engineering could ever build a boat that big to hold all the species of the world. Not only that, but what about all the plant life that would have been totally destroyed by the water.
Not only that, but the Kangaroo and the American Bison for example. So Noah would have had to go get these animals from America and Australia and put then on a boat for 40-days and nights and then when the flood water receded, then Noah and family would have to go and put these animals back to their place in America and Australia.
There is too much scientific evidence that areas that would have been totally destroyed that appear to be untouched by any evidence of a flood, even going back to hundreds of thousands of years. The ice core samples also show no evidence of a global flood.
The Jewish God of the Old Testament that showed a lot of anger and having no problem killing people with his own acts, either through a flood or even destroying all the inhabitants of the city of Jericho for just a couple of examples doesn't seem like a God I would like to love or worship.
Maybe God had a change of heart when he had a child, but then I think of all the insane and senseless killing of people in war or lets just use the Holocaust as an example. Did God kill them too?
If Jesus says that anger is a sin, but Jesus himself showed anger at the money changers at the temple and even at his own disciples, so Jesus sinned. Jesus even mentioned that any person without sin may cast the stones, but Jesus didn't cast the stones because he I assume was with sin. Jesus was so mad at Peter one day that he even called him Satan himself. Clearly Peter wasn't Satan, so why did Jesus call him such a harsh name. Was it the drink that did it?
I have no idea how believers find sense in all of this. Especially since most of you haven't even read the Bible. So what compels you to really believe and have so much faith? What is it that triggers it? Is there like one passage from the Bible or just the story itself of Jesus? I can't seem to figure it out.
Where is that moment or what was it that made you believe? Or have you always believed since your youth?
