Just FYI, one mating pair is not enough to repopulate a species... at least, not for complex organisms. There would be a LOT of in-breeding, which would completely wreck the gene pool. With stuff like bacteria and algae, you could probably get away with it. But for birds, reptiles, mammals, etc... not a chance.
But it is a nice little story, isn't it?
I wonder if there were several different kinds of rhino on the ark or if one breeding pair evolved into what we have now in just a few thousand years:
And I don't even want to start thinking about the 6-10 million different species of insects....
And that's just the eukaryotic species on this chart!
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-07-2013).]
Can you please explain for the group why you feel an uncontrolable urge to convince people that something DOESN'T EXIST? I can imagine you at Wal-Mart just before Easter! Do you go up and down the isles shouting "THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY!! THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY!!" as I picture you do? Why not? Isn't that also superstition? Don't you care about kids?
Kinda ironic coming from a christian, whos main job in your religion is too "convert" others and "convince" them they are wrong and your way is right.. Yet you get upset, (very apparently) when someone attempts to opposite on you..
Interesting.
Some of us might picture you running through Walmart screaming "FOLLOW JESUS OR BURN"!!!
[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 05-07-2013).]
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09:49 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
I wonder if there were several different kinds of rhino on the ark or if one breeding pair evolved into what we have now in just a few thousand years:
I don't know. Interesting question. Think about dog breeds for a minute. They are all said to have the wolf as a common ancestor. Some are huge like the Mastiff (my favorite) and some are tiny like the teacup Chihuahua. What would you say is the average age of dog breeds? I'd think most are 300 years or less and just look at the variety. And that's just "purebred" dogs, anyone care to count the mixed breed dogs?
I don't know. Interesting question. Think about dog breeds for a minute. They are all said to have the wolf as a common ancestor. Some are huge like the Mastiff (my favorite) and some are tiny like the teacup Chihuahua. What would you say is the average age of dog breeds? I'd think most are 300 years or less and just look at the variety. And that's just "purebred" dogs, anyone care to count the mixed breed dogs?
The majority of different breeds of dogs where created by man by mixing different breeds together.. Most dogs you probably see as pets arent even "natural" breeds created by nature.
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10:01 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Just FYI, one mating pair is not enough to repopulate a species... at least, not for complex organisms. There would be a LOT of in-breeding, which would completely wreck the gene pool. With stuff like bacteria and algae, you could probably get away with it. But for birds, reptiles, mammals, etc... not a chance.
But it is a nice little story, isn't it?
Probably reduce the variations in species dramatically right? Alot of variations of kinds of animal would go extinct. We'd probably see that in our research.
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10:03 AM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5500 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
Kinda ironic coming from a christian, whos main job in your religion is too "convert" others and "convince" them they are wrong and your way is right..
This is significant. I keep seeing the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Bigfoot mentioned; the difference being, those characters don't have a multi-billion-dollar worldwide organization advocating on their behalf, trying to draw in more members.
Why else would the church teach its members they oughta be out drumming up new members all the time?
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10:06 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Kinda ironic coming from a christian, whos main job in your religion is too "convert" others and "convince" them they are wrong and your way is right.. Yet you get upset, (very apparently) when someone attempts to opposite on you..
Interesting.
It is not ironic for a Christian to become upset. I'm just as human as you. I experience all forms of emotion including RAGE! I'm absolutely guilty as charged. I'm not proud of those times but there's no point in pretending they don't happen. The quote you cited was not one of those times, anger or rage. It was something completely different. It was me being a smart-ass! I do that too.
Converting and convincing is not the main job in my "religion". It is not my job at all. All I'm supposed to do is tell. The rest is between you and God. I would like it some day for someone to come up to me and shake my hand and say "thank you for pointng me to Jesus". I think that would feel really good. Dare I say "prideful"? It would be really hard NOT to feel that way. Maybe it would be different. I don't know. It hasn't happened yet.
If you got the impression that I was upset because of opposition, I gave the wrong impression. That is not how I feel at all. I used to have a manager who was a Muslim. He might have been the best guy I've ever worked for. He was from Egypt and I remember the day that he passed his test to be an American citizen. He was so happy! I always called him "my American friend" after that. It always made him smile.
What I got upset about was the choice of language rayb used to tell his opinion. "I don't believe what you believe" would have been fine, sufficient, relevant, and respectful. Instead he chose words like, "foolish, delusions, fantasy, cults". That is neither constructive or appropriate. I wouldn't want that said to me on the street by a complete stranger much less here on a forum where I've been a member for about six years. If that way of thinking doesn't line up with yours, I don't know what else to say because I won't apologize for it. That is a part of me that I have no desire to change.
The majority of different breeds of dogs where created by man by mixing different breeds together.. Most dogs you probably see as pets arent even "natural" breeds created by nature.
Originally posted by yellowstone: I wonder if there were several different kinds of rhino on the ark or if one breeding pair evolved into what we have now in just a few thousand years:
Some thoughts.
We look back assuming a few thousand years ago things on earth were as they are now. We see millions of years of data. Because we look back that way things look very limited by time. Also we see specific limits of genetics within one creature such as today.
The bible talks about each animal according to their "kind".
“kind” is often at the level of “family” in our modern classification scheme. For example, zebras, horses, and donkeys all belong to the family Equidae and can mate with each other to form hybrid animals such as mules (from a horse and donkey) and zonkeys (from a zebra and donkey). However, there is no reason to assume a one-to-one correspondence between our manmade system and the biblical terminology. So “kind” may be at a higher taxonomic level in some cases, lower in others. Since two of each kind of land animal (and seven of some) were brought aboard the Ark for the purpose of preserving their offspring upon the earth (Genesis 7:3), it seems clear that a “kind” represents the basic reproductive boundary of an organism. That is, the offspring of an organism is always the same kind as its parents, even though it may display considerable variation. Dogs, for example, exhibit tremendous variety. Yet diverse breeds of dogs can produce offspring with each other—indicating that all dogs are of the same kind."
Humans, what about the differect "races" we see today.
"Noah and his family were probably mid-brown, with genes for both dark and light skin, because a medium skin color would seem to be the most generally suitable (dark enough to protect against skin cancer, yet light enough to allow vitamin D production). As all the factors for skin color were present in Adam and Eve, they would most likely have been mid-brown as well, with brown eyes and brown (or black) hair. In fact, most of the world's population today is still mid-brown. " . . http://www.answersingenesis...variety-within-kinds
This is significant. I keep seeing the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Bigfoot mentioned; the difference being, those characters don't have a multi-billion-dollar worldwide organization advocating on their behalf, trying to draw in more members.
Why else would the church teach its members they oughta be out drumming up new members all the time?
My point each time is if these people REALLY believe there is no god whatsoever, why do they put so much effort into proving it? First of all, if they are students of science they should know that you CANNOT PROVE THE NON-EXISTANCE OF ANYTHING. I don't believe in Bigfoot, fairies, etc so I don't care what people say about them. If you want to start an excursion company taking people out into the woods to make Bigfoot calls in the dark, I don't have a problem with it. I don't know what the value of the global market of cryptozoology is but I'm sure there are big numbers there. But yet no one gets up in arms about those things. Why? Because they REALLY don't believe in Bigfoot. Not so with God. They can say they don't believe but every time they post on a Christian thread, they are showing me something entirely different.
I'm not a multi-million dollar enterprise. If they have problems with those things, that is what they should say and that is who they should say it to. I didn't ask for any contributions here or ask for any converts. I asked if I could pray for Wichita because I am concerned for his soul. I have not even asked HIM to convert. That is not my purpose. That is for him to decide. If his answer is no, that does not change my desire for him. I will continue to pray for him until he tells me to stop. I will do that if that is what he wants.
I'm sorry if you have been offended or harassed by church members at any point in your life. I don't know where they came from and if their motivation was pure but I hope that they were just trying to be good neighbors as they had been taught. Believe me, very few church members WANT to go door to door! It can be scary and nerve wracking. They are putting themselves out there where they are uncomfortable in an attempt to do something they believe is good.
"Noah and his family were probably mid-brown, with genes for both dark and light skin, because a medium skin color would seem to be the most generally suitable (dark enough to protect against skin cancer, yet light enough to allow vitamin D production). As all the factors for skin color were present in Adam and Eve, they would most likely have been mid-brown as well, with brown eyes and brown (or black) hair. In fact, most of the world's population today is still mid-brown. "
I'm not so sure this is accurate. If you google "orthodox jew" and check "images", many of them are white to the point of being pale. I don't know if this is just the accepted "stereotype" jew but I think direct decendants of Jews in the middle east are light skinned. I guess it is possible that mid-brown people could produce light-skinned offspring but I believe it is more likely that light-skinned people turned darker.
I'm not so sure this is accurate. If you google "orthodox jew" and check "images", many of them are white to the point of being pale. I don't know if this is just the accepted "stereotype" jew but I think direct decendants of Jews in the middle east are light skinned. I guess it is possible that mid-brown people could produce light-skinned offspring but I believe it is more likely that light-skinned people turned darker.
Have a look at the site.
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10:54 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
We look back assuming a few thousand years ago things on earth were as they are now. We see millions of years of data. Because we look back that way things look very limited by time. Also we see specific limits of genetics within one creature such as today.
The bible talks about each animal according to their "kind".
“kind” is often at the level of “family” in our modern classification scheme. For example, zebras, horses, and donkeys all belong to the family Equidae and can mate with each other to form hybrid animals such as mules (from a horse and donkey) and zonkeys (from a zebra and donkey). However, there is no reason to assume a one-to-one correspondence between our manmade system and the biblical terminology. So “kind” may be at a higher taxonomic level in some cases, lower in others. Since two of each kind of land animal (and seven of some) were brought aboard the Ark for the purpose of preserving their offspring upon the earth (Genesis 7:3), it seems clear that a “kind” represents the basic reproductive boundary of an organism. That is, the offspring of an organism is always the same kind as its parents, even though it may display considerable variation. Dogs, for example, exhibit tremendous variety. Yet diverse breeds of dogs can produce offspring with each other—indicating that all dogs are of the same kind."
Humans, what about the differect "races" we see today.
"Noah and his family were probably mid-brown, with genes for both dark and light skin, because a medium skin color would seem to be the most generally suitable (dark enough to protect against skin cancer, yet light enough to allow vitamin D production). As all the factors for skin color were present in Adam and Eve, they would most likely have been mid-brown as well, with brown eyes and brown (or black) hair. In fact, most of the world's population today is still mid-brown. " . . http://www.answersingenesis...variety-within-kinds
DNA records what changed when there is NO record of a limited animal bottleneck about 2500bce at the time of the claimed flood that is also true of humans IF as the flood legends claim every animal was reduced to a pair or even 7 the DNA would show that clearly it doesNOT
btw the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramids were built around the claimed flood date as in before during and after Year of the Flood after creation in year 1 = The Hebrew Calendar has traditionally, since the 4th century AD by Hillel II, dated the creation to 3761 BCE Masoretic = 1656 AM or 2105 bce Alexandrinus = 2262 AM or 1499 bce Vaticanus = 2242 AM or 1519 bce Samaritan = 1307 AM or 2454 bce
or 2500 to about 1500 bce PROBLEM THERE ARE NO RECORDS OF A WORLD WIDE FLOOD IN THAT TIME PERIOD THERE ARE RECORDS OF WHO WAS THE RULER AND WHAT THEY DID THEN IN EGYPT SUMMER CHINA AND INDIA
SORRY THERE WAS NO FLOOD
BTW THE JEWS IN ETHIOPIA ARE BLACK THE JEWS IN EUROPE ARE WHITE INTERMARRIAGE WITH THE LOCAL PEOPLE IS THE RIGHT ANSWER
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 05-07-2013).]
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11:35 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
DNA records what changed when there is NO record of a limited animal bottleneck about 2500bce at the time of the claimed flood that is also true of humans IF as the flood legends claim every animal was reduced to a pair or even 7 the DNA would show that clearly it doesNOT
btw the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramids were built around the claimed flood date as in before during and after Year of the Flood after creation in year 1 = The Hebrew Calendar has traditionally, since the 4th century AD by Hillel II, dated the creation to 3761 BCE Masoretic = 1656 AM or 2105 bce Alexandrinus = 2262 AM or 1499 bce Vaticanus = 2242 AM or 1519 bce Samaritan = 1307 AM or 2454 bce
or 2500 to about 1500 bce PROBLEM THERE ARE NO RECORDS OF A WORLD WIDE FLOOD IN THAT TIME PERIOD THERE ARE RECORDS OF WHO WAS THE RULER AND WHAT THEY DID THEN
SORRY THERE WAS NO FLOOD
BTW THE JEWS IN ETHIOPIA ARE BLACK THE JEWS IN EUROPE ARE WHITE INTERMARRIAGE WITH THE LOCAL PEOPLE IS THE RIGHT ANSWER
I call this evidence of a "closet believer". You're not fooling me, rayb!
My point each time is if these people REALLY believe there is no god whatsoever, why do they put so much effort into proving it? First of all, if they are students of science they should know that you CANNOT PROVE THE NON-EXISTANCE OF ANYTHING. I don't believe in Bigfoot, fairies, etc so I don't care what people say about them. If you want to start an excursion company taking people out into the woods to make Bigfoot calls in the dark, I don't have a problem with it. I don't know what the value of the global market of cryptozoology is but I'm sure there are big numbers there. But yet no one gets up in arms about those things. Why? Because they REALLY don't believe in Bigfoot. Not so with God. They can say they don't believe but every time they post on a Christian thread, they are showing me something entirely different.
This. I can't agree enough. I have never seen people on talk shows or writing a series of books, etc on how there is no bigfoot and how foolish people are for believing there is. Maybe someone has done this but it is not some common practice. Even respected scientists, who have no belief in bigfoot, ufo abductions, chupacabra, etc, don't waste their time trying to convince people of the non-existence of said creatures. I have said it before, but the reactions of those who are hostile to the Gospel, and the time and energy they waste trying to convince everyone not to believe would be enough to convince me that Christianity is worth looking into. The more energy people expend trying to disprove God to me, the more convinced I am. I grew up in a large multicultural city where there were people of many religions, and at that time I was not a believer in any religion, and I never heard people trying to convince my Hindu friends that their gods did not exist. Same with my Muslim friends or others... Maybe I'll just shut up now and say a prayer for Wichita.
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12:34 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
[It's] all about you. And there's that pride. You're misunderstood, you're attacked, you're unappreciated, you're accused, you're disrespected, you're mistreated.
You turned a conversation about religion into a conversation about you.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
Once again, this has nothing to do with pride. Almost every single question and answer posted here has been directed at me and my personal experience and beliefs. I did not ask for it to be that way. I do not like it this way so I’m certainly not prideful about it. ... This thread was NEVER supposed to be a religious conversation. It was only meant to be positive messages to Wichita from Christians. Was that plan prideful?
Your decision to pray for Wichita was probably well intentioned, if misguided. But when you chose to start a thread on a public car forum, sounding a clarion call for "ALL CHRISTIANS" ... whom you seem to your think your personal belief represents (or should represent) ... to join in, you made it all about you. Do you still not recognize the Pride in that act?
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-07-2013).]
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01:17 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Your decision to pray for Wichita was probably well intentioned, if misguided. But when you chose to start a thread on a public car forum, sounding a clarion call for "ALL CHRISTIANS" ... whom you seem to your think your personal belief represents (or should represent) ... to join in, you made it all about you. Do you still not recognize the Pride in that act?
Well, I don't think my personal belief represents anyone but me. I hope that Christainity represents US. I requested prayer. This is something that is done in most church services I have attended. Some ask for prayer requests and they are given vocally right there in the service, some have a "sign up" sheet for it. I suppose you could call it in and have your prayer request added to the list of your church. Those calls for prayer requests do not make the service "all about the preacher". What it it is all about is turning a problem over to God's care. This thread is no different. I made a prayer request to my Christian brothers. There is no pride in that. if you don't understand it that way, maybe you weren't supposed to. Jaskispyder suggests that people of differing religious beliefs cannot understand the principals of another belief system. I can't explain it like he can.
I grew up in a large multicultural city where there were people of many religions, and at that time I was not a believer in any religion, and I never heard people trying to convince my Hindu friends that their gods did not exist. Same with my Muslim friends or others...
You haven't been reading the thread close enough then.
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02:17 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
That depends. Are you saying that anyone (other than non-believers) have tried to convince anyone that their god doesn't exist?
I'm referring to this post:
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
Do I believe he can do that through Islam or Hinduism? No. I believe that Christ is the one and only path to Heaven.
That's on Page 6. I even asked for a clarification at the time.
Are you saying the Hindu or Muslim god doesn't exist? Do you really mean to say that? Are you really saying that your belief involves the necessity of the other guy being wrong? I think the Hindu or Muslim forum member might differ in that opinion.
Doesn't the notion that one religion thinks the other religions are wrong, pretty much suggest they all might be wrong?
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03:07 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
That's on Page 6. I even asked for a clarification at the time.
Are you saying the Hindu or Muslim god doesn't exist? Do you really mean to say that? Are you really saying that your belief involves the necessity of the other guy being wrong? I think the Hindu or Muslim forum member might differ in that opinion.
Doesn't the notion that one religion thinks the other religions are wrong, pretty much suggest they all might be wrong?
I was thinkign we were discussing whether or not someone was trying to convince another that some god didn't exist. That didn't happen. Yes, I made the statement you quoted and I stand behind that statement. Christian teachings tell me that there is only one God and only one path to Heaven. That is what I completely believe. This also means that I do not believe in other "gods". You can't have it both ways. You either believe the teachings or you don't. If someone tells you he's a Christian but believes in other gods and other paths, he's either a liar or he's sadly misinformed.
At no point in this entire thread has anyone come on here and said, "I believe this..." where I responded, "You're wrong, believe my way". Not a single person has stated they believe in any particular belief system other than Christianity or atheism.
I requested prayer. This is something that is done in most church services I have attended ... This thread is no different. I made a prayer request to my Christian brothers.
A call for prayer is fully appropriate in a church. But this is an Internet car forum, not a church. Your public call to "ALL CHRISTIANS" for prayer is inappropriate here. You seem either not to realize or not to care about the difference.
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03:36 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
A call for prayer is fully appropriate in a church. But this is an Internet car forum, not a church. Your public call to "ALL CHRISTIANS" for prayer is inappropriate here. You seem either not to realize or not to care about the difference.
This section of the forum is called Totally Off Topic which means anything can be discussed here. In fact, there is a feature that you can use to identify a thread as being of a religious nature. There is also a filtering system for those who would prefer not to see the religious threads. This particular thread was properly identified and titled to ensure that anyone who might be offended by the content would not have to open the thread or use the preview feature to see what it was about.
Each and every one asking for prayer or about prayer. Have you spoken to Cliff about this outrage? There is nothing inappropriate about a prayer request thread. It is not required reading. No participation is required. To quote rayb, "YOU ARE WRONG".
At no point in this entire thread has anyone come on here and said, "I believe this..." where I responded, "You're wrong, believe my way". Not a single person has stated they believe in any particular belief system other than Christianity or atheism.
Of course not. But you ARE attempting to steer the unaligned persons towards a particular belief system (IE, Wichita), by suggesting there is a wrong way and a right way.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
Do I believe he can do that through Islam or Hinduism? No. I believe that Christ is the one and only path to Heaven.
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04:11 PM
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
That's why I like rayb. He doesn't push anything as the fact. Only his opinion of how he see's it. His fact.
You know that going in. No games, no "club" to support or impress, no pretense (a false appearance or action intended to deceive).
There used to be a lot of people like that around here. They were really interesting.
Now pretty much 90% of the people here are (for the most part) of the same mind. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not very interesting, or seemingly conducive to expanding you range of thoughts & ideas.....and therefore possibilities.
Watching everyone agree all the time is boring!
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04:22 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Of course not. But you ARE attempting to steer the unaligned persons towards a particular belief system (IE, Wichita), by suggesting there is a wrong way and a right way.
I'm attempting to tell the story of my experience. The only people that can be "steered" are the ones that have an interest in what I'm saying. Those set in their ways will not be influenced. My hope is that everyone will turn to Jesus, that includes Wichita. But that is all a given since that can pretty much be figured out in the very first post of the thread.
I do believe there is one right way and countless wrong ways. In short, I'm a Christian. That is also pretty clear from the first post.
That depends. Are you saying that anyone (other than non-believers) have tried to convince anyone that their god doesn't exist?
your christian's with in a few years after the romans stopped persecuting them destroyed all the older gods temples in rome burned their books and killed their priests
once you understand why you think Jupiter and Ra or Vishnu never existed sure they had believers priests and temples but no god lived in them or heard the praying may be you will understand your religion is also man made just like all the other religions
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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10:24 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Doesn't the notion that one religion thinks the other religions are wrong, pretty much suggest they all might be wrong?
Logically, no.
Every religion states "in the beginning, our god did.... and to get into paradise you have to ...". NONE of the religions say, "our god got together with the god of different religion... and together they created the world". Since they all say something different and none of them claim a partnership with another religion, logic demands that IF any of them are true, only ONE of them CAN be true. That is the point I wanted to make with the pencils question.
So, LOGICALLY, if you believe in ANY religion, you SHOULDN'T believe in any others.
