And some Christian sects even baptize people posthumously without their consent. But they mean well, right?
I think that the tone and probably the intention of the OP was nice but the concept is condescending.
I was raised in my early years in a Methodist church with my parents. They also had me "baptized". Later as a teen I chose to attend a Baptist church. At that time I made the conscience decision to get truly baptized. Of my own free will, in the presense of witnesses, full immersion. I wanted to make sure I was doing what was pleasing to God.
I don't understand your comment that the concept of praying for someone is condescending. As it has been mentioned several times, this was discussed with Wichita before hand. He has agreed to it and I have PM'd him that he can call for the plug to be pulled at any time.
This is not an experiment or a test. It is one person calling like-minded people to pray for another individual. There is no guarantee that Wichita will give his life to Jesus. We accept that. That doesn't change our HOPE that he will.
If gods existed and/or intervened in an individuals actions or circumstances, that would definitely infringe on the "victim's" right to self-determination!
With the assumption of the existance of "gods" we also must assume that they created us. What right would we, as the product of their efforts, have to deny them anything? How does a chair have the right to tell the carpenter that he doesn't have the right to break it up and toss it in the fire for his own warmth?
James 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Proverbs 3:13-18 Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. ...
How do you know when someone prays for you? Which of your rights have been damaged? What is the result of that damage?
The soul belongs to the individual (and their god, if they have one, and choose it to be). By praying, you are asking your God to oversee the handling of another person's soul, which could already be "taken" by another god, therefore jeopardizing that relationship.
Plus, when someone says "I will pray that you find God".... that seems to state that anything else that person believes, it must be false. As if there is only one god and it is a Christian god. If you really wanted to help someone out, wouldn't you ask them which god (or "thing") they believe in and pray to that "being". This way, that person will feel comforted knowing that you are supportive of their beliefs?
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10:21 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
exactly. What if I worshiped Zeus, and a Christian prayed for me. Zeus might find that offensive and hold it against me. (note... I am not a greek god worshiper, just using it as an example)
All of the "major religions" in the world suggest a single "deity". This tell us that if ANY of the religions that exist are correct, it is likely one of the major ones and therefore a single god is the creator. So logically, the next question would be, "does this one god hear prayers not directed toward him?"
I don't know? Why would he? Even so, if he did, he'd already know that he was the only god and therefore that misdirected "prayer" was nothing more than misguided thought.
Originally posted by jaskispyder: The soul belongs to the individual (and their god, if they have one, and choose it to be). By praying, you are asking your God to oversee the handling of another person's soul, which could already be "taken" by another god, therefore jeopardizing that relationship.
Plus, when someone says "I will pray that you find God".... that seems to state that anything else that person believes, it must be false. As if there is only one god and it is a Christian god. If you really wanted to help someone out, wouldn't you ask them which god (or "thing") they believe in and pray to that "being". This way, that person will feel comforted knowing that you are supportive of their beliefs?
You share some widely held misconceptions. If I am a member of the Christian faith, and I truely believe its teachings, then I don't believe in the possiblity of any other religions being true. Because I AM of the Christian faith, I DO NOT believe other religions are possible. Therefore I can't understand the concept of "another god taking posession of a soul". I don't believe God "takes" our soul, we have to give it over to His care.
If I did have some other religion and my "god" was so weak that he might lose control of the soul I placed with him, I think I'd be shopping for a better god!
I do not want to falsly comfort someone by assuring them that their way is as good as any other. That is not what I believe.
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Its a power struggle and pizzin contest to join or not join a cult (whichever one), some of us are determined we wont join and will defend ourselves, sometimes to the death---and others are determined we will join, and will do anything--even post-death, to try and force us.
Believe me, I have seen Muslum, LOA, Scientologist, Baptist --all of 'em-- customers and co-workers just as wound up as things get here when somebody wont change to thier way of thinking and believing. frack 'em and feed 'em manure. Last time I looked I own my own mind, not them.
You say THEY are the ones getting wound up but look who's posting in a Christian thread! Perhaps it is your statements to them that cause the "pizzin contests" you so frequently find yourself in. Instead of butting heads with them, I'd say a simple "I'm not open to that discussion" and walk away would be pretty sufficient to stop them. If they follow, that may be harassment. I do not condone this kind of behavior. If you address questions and comments to me, I will do my best to respond in a respectful way.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: How do you know when someone prays for you? Which of your rights have been damaged? What is the result of that damage?
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder: The soul belongs to the individual (and their god, if they have one, and choose it to be). By praying, you are asking your God to oversee the handling of another person's soul, which could already be "taken" by another god, therefore jeopardizing that relationship.
Plus, when someone says "I will pray that you find God".... that seems to state that anything else that person believes, it must be false. As if there is only one god and it is a Christian god. If you really wanted to help someone out, wouldn't you ask them which god (or "thing") they believe in and pray to that "being". This way, that person will feel comforted knowing that you are supportive of their beliefs?
You stated a definative "YES" your rights were damaged by someone praying for you. You are not answering the question. Please, give a definative example of how your rights have been damaged and the result of that damage.
Wasn’t going to join this thread but am I missing something here? I thought Wichita was cool with this, why the hell does anybody have a problem with this or care in the least?
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11:34 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
You stated a definative "YES" your rights were damaged by someone praying for you. You are not answering the question. Please, give a definative example of how your rights have been damaged and the result of that damage.
I will tell you when I get back from the other side
To you, there is one god.... God. There is nothing I can say that would convince you otherwise.
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12:59 PM
PFF
System Bot
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Instead of butting heads with them, I'd say a simple "I'm not open to that discussion" and walk away would be pretty sufficient to stop them.
I have a friend who lives a couple of doors away. He's of the Jehovah's Witness faith. He has often brought literature for me to read. I've told him that I don't share his beliefs, but I will accept and read the booklets. He understands that I have no desire to convert. We don't argue points in our beliefs. His faith doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays, but I send him a Christmas card and a card celebrating his personal birthday. He knows that these are a wish coming from me for his well-being.
Red88FF, good point. What difference should it make to anyone else?
You share some widely held misconceptions. If I am a member of the Christian faith, and I truely believe its teachings, then I don't believe in the possiblity of any other religions being true. Because I AM of the Christian faith, I DO NOT believe other religions are possible. Therefore I can't understand the concept of "another god taking posession of a soul". I don't believe God "takes" our soul, we have to give it over to His care.
If I did have some other religion and my "god" was so weak that he might lose control of the soul I placed with him, I think I'd be shopping for a better god!
I do not want to falsly comfort someone by assuring them that their way is as good as any other. That is not what I believe.
You share some widely held misconceptions that anyone here gives a crap!
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01:54 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Maybe by you, personally, I think the best thing that could happen to this craphole corpocrocy and bankocrocy socirty is an ELE-level asteroid strike....wipe out this so-called "civilization" and start again from "go"
LOL, if Cliff High from Half-Past-Human and his web-bots are right, it'll take about about 6 weeks or so......
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03:19 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by jaskispyder: I will tell you when I get back from the other side
To you, there is one god.... God. There is nothing I can say that would convince you otherwise.
I don't want you to attempt to convince me there is something other than one god. That is not what we were discussing. We were talking about your rights and how they have been stripped away by people praying for you. Never mind that you suggested that all of humanity be prayed for.
Can we just agree that you responded out of emotion and your rights have not been damaged in any way that you know of now or have ever known of in the past as you suggested they might be?
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Did I just hear someone say, "Holier than thou"?
You did not. I am stating what I believe. I am not asking for a debate. I am responding to questions and comments that were never supposed to be here in the first place. I have asked politely that the thread be used as it was designed. That request has been thoroughly trampled. So be it. Now this thread is what it has been made to be. If it offends you, please don't blame me.
You say THEY are the ones getting wound up but look who's posting in a Christian thread! Perhaps it is your statements to them that cause the "pizzin contests" you so frequently find yourself in. Instead of butting heads with them, I'd say a simple "I'm not open to that discussion" and walk away would be pretty sufficient to stop them. If they follow, that may be harassment. I do not condone this kind of behavior. If you address questions and comments to me, I will do my best to respond in a respectful way.
I'm not that kind of personality, Johnathon...I say "no thank you" nicely once or twice, then it becomes a hostile "no"....then it becomes "what are you?, deaf or stupid?" and by the time I have to say it a 5th time my fists are balled and somebody is going down....LOL, its not just relegion, I treat salesmen the same way ...What I dont do is turn my back and run in fear, I stand my ground. When I say "no" yer choices are respect my answer, or go to war over it. There are no onter options....I'll do it nicely to start with, but in the end I aint backing down. MY time, MY property, MY money, MY brain....means that MY is in charge, not THIERS...
I have recomended reading on this forum before, "Anthem", chapter 11, Ayn Rand... That about covers relegion for me...
It seems more genuine and honest, than condescending to me. But much of that is subjective, thus holding ones tongue is a wise choice sometimes, I know I have. To mess with an old cliche : If you cant say something sincere, say nothing at all?
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03:32 PM
PFF
System Bot
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Who are you trying to comfort? Yourself or them? Why wouldn't you provide comfort in the form the person wants? If I like coffee, don't give me tea
(I know, we won't agree, but that is the nature of religion... heck, wars are fought over it).
You brought up the comforting question. We were talking about comforting someone else if I understood the question correctly. If someone has a faith, why does he need the approval or support of another person to make him feel good about it? I am obviously in the minority here by being a Christian and it doesn't change my beliefs at all that very few here agree with me.
I respect other people's viewpoints and respect their right to believe what they want. I have not asked anyone to believe what I believe. I did not ask Wichita to believe what I believe. I asked if I could start praying for him, etc. I have not belittled anyone for thier beliefs. If this is not so, please show me the thread and I will promptly apologize.
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03:37 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
"The old tolerance is the willingness to put up with, allow, or endure people and ideas with whom we disagree; in its purest form, the new tolerance is the social commitment to treat all ideas and people as equally right, save for those people who disagree with this view of tolerance. Advocates of the new tolerance sacrifice wisdom and principle in support of just one supreme good: upholding their view of tolerance. So those who uphold and practice the older tolerance, enmeshed as they inevitably are in some value system, are written off as intolerant. Thus banished, they no longer deserve a place at the table. "
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I'm not that kind of personality, Johnathon...I say "no thank you" nicely once or twice, then it becomes a hostile "no"....then it becomes "what are you?, deaf or stupid?" and by the time I have to say it a 5th time my fists are balled and somebody is going down....LOL, its not just relegion, I treat salesmen the same way ...What I dont do is turn my back and run in fear, I stand my ground. When I say "no" yer choices are respect my answer, or go to war over it. There are no onter options....I'll do it nicely to start with, but in the end I aint backing down. MY time, MY property, MY money, MY brain....means that MY is in charge, not THIERS...
Mike
If that's the way you handle it, I've got no problem with your actions. I'm not looking for a debate with anyone. I don't feel the Christian faith needs defending and if it did, I'm certainly not the most qualified to do so. In the mean time, I'll do my best to answer the many questions people seem to have about my personal faith experience.
"The old tolerance is the willingness to put up with, allow, or endure people and ideas with whom we disagree; in its purest form, the new tolerance is the social commitment to treat all ideas and people as equally right, save for those people who disagree with this view of tolerance. Advocates of the new tolerance sacrifice wisdom and principle in support of just one supreme good: upholding their view of tolerance. So those who uphold and practice the older tolerance, enmeshed as they inevitably are in some value system, are written off as intolerant. Thus banished, they no longer deserve a place at the table. "
So when the tolerant banish the intolerant because they are intolerant of intolerance, don't they become intolerant, too?
If that's the way you handle it, I've got no problem with your actions. I'm not looking for a debate with anyone. I don't feel the Christian faith needs defending and if it did, I'm certainly not the most qualified to do so. In the mean time, I'll do my best to answer the many questions people seem to have about my personal faith experience.
Ya know the funny part, man...if ya came to me and asked that the kids baseball field beside the church needs the grass cut..Oh, Hell ya I'll run the tractor, even take a day off work to do it (not like I never have before)....If ya say "gods house needs maintaince"...the answer is "let him crawl out of isreal and cut it himself".....even though its the exact same place and piece of land.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-26-2013).]
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03:47 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Ya know the funny part, man...if ya came to me and asked that the kids baseball field beside the church needs the grass cut..Oh, Hell ya I'll run the tractor....If ya say "gods house needs maintaince"...the answer is "let him crawl out of isreal and cut it himself".....even though its the exact same place and piece of land.
I dont know about that...(thinking about an old boss and a micro-group here)
But ....if one individual is SO hell-bent determined to impose thier way of thinking, thier beliefs, on all around them..with absoloute disregard for even the SLIGHTEST freedom and zero-tollerance for dissent....if this pesron silences all people mid-sentance, forces them to re-phrase words until they agree with them, openly brags that they "play circuis music" in thier head until they hear what they want to.....
A child sticking fingers in the ears ???...OK, they are children.......A grown adult?---they are a psycopath TO be ostrizied--which is exactly what happened...
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04:01 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20687 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
To understand how your actions impact me, you have to believe in other "beings"... "gods"... or the absent of such things.
Also, when did I say that all humanity be prayed for? Maybe it was someone else.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
I don't want you to attempt to convince me there is something other than one god. That is not what we were discussing. We were talking about your rights and how they have been stripped away by people praying for you. Never mind that you suggested that all of humanity be prayed for.
Can we just agree that you responded out of emotion and your rights have not been damaged in any way that you know of now or have ever known of in the past as you suggested they might be?
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04:19 PM
CoryFiero Member
Posts: 4341 From: Charleston, SC Registered: Oct 2001
I'm parked at a church parking lot right now. I can't seemed to get myself to say a prayer or to believe. No vibes are being felt by the church.
I guess I'll go over to Wendy's and get a vanilla frosty.
Keep the prayers coming. I came close to the Lord's house but can't get myself to enter through the doors.
Progress. You made it to the parking lot! We have a church here in downtown Charleston that has been converted (pun intended) into a bar. I think it's the next logical step for you to take. Beers on me! http://www.madrivercharleston.com
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04:37 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
This is what I am saying.... why does someone find the need to pray for someone else? What is the point? If someone doesn't believe in Christianity, why would having someone pray to God help them? Why does someone say "I will pray for you"? I believe it is to make them feel better, as if they are doing something helpful. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, as people need to find comfort in their actions. The person saying "I will pray for you" is comforted by this and maybe they feel better by telling the person. But in reality, the receiving person doesn't benefit (if they don't believe in the same religion).
Eh, again, you would have to accept that other gods/beliefs exist, and I think that is the part we can't get past.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
If someone has a faith, why does he need the approval or support of another person to make him feel good about it?
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04:43 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40962 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I chose this as a place to collect encouraging messages for Wichita. Please see my original post if you have any doubt...
I would appreciate it if everyone from here forward would respect the original intention of this thread. If anyone has a problem with the intent of this thread or my intentions to care about someone, please feel free to PM me.
Actually, when I first read this thread, I figured that you were attempting to pull everyone's chain. Apparently with Wichita's cooperation. (Call me cynical.) It appears that I was wrong in my original assessment. My apologies for that.
I'm not one to wear my faith (or my emotions, or a lot of other things) on my sleeve, because I believe that it's truly personal. I don't have to beat people over the head with "my way", nor do I appreciate having it done to me.
But, to the topic at hand.... Yeah. Why not. I'm on board. You won't hear about it every day, though. That's just me. Like I said.
I do wish Wichita well in whatever he decides, going forward. <going back into lurk mode>
Originally posted by Wichita:I'm parked at a church parking lot right now. I can't seemed to get myself to say a prayer or to believe. No vibes are being felt by the church.
I was not thinking this was about pressuring you into a church. I am not an active follower of any church because of all the hypocrites I met there.
All of the "major religions" in the world suggest a single "deity".
Not true (Buddhism) and definitely only (more of less) true today. In the past, most major religions were polytheistic (Romans, Egyptians, Greek, Germanic...)
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 04-26-2013).]
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07:03 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12929 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
Not trying to sound sarcastic, but 'church' is a scam anyway. One doesn't need to go to a building to have faith and 'be a good person'.
Exactly! Today, Church is often a public display. Showing others that you may have a belief in a particular faith. To some, it's nothing more than that. Social acceptance.
To some, it's a place to learn more about their choice of faith. Just as we see these strange shapes printed in magazines, newspapers and billboards, as kids, we don't understand them. We go to school to learn their meanings and how to utilize them to make the best of our lives. For some, Church is a school that teaches them about their chosen faith.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 04-26-2013).]
...What I dont do is turn my back and run in fear, I stand my ground. When I say "no" yer choices are respect my answer, or go to war over it. There are no onter options....I'll do it nicely to start with, but in the end I aint backing down. MY time, MY property, MY money, MY brain....means that MY is in charge, not THIERS...
