Without proof they can all just as equally be correct or incorrect.
If I make the statements:
All pencils are yellow. All pencils are blue. All pencils are green. All pencils are different colors. Some pencils share the same color.
Without seeing the pencils or knowing what pencils are or only having posession of one pencil, we cannot confirm any of the statements. What we do know is that if any of them are true, only one can be true.
All pencils are yellow. All pencils are blue. All pencils are green. All pencils are different colors. Some pencils share the same color.
Without seeing the pencils or knowing what pencils are or only having posession of one pencil, we cannot confirm any of the statements. What we do know is that if any of them are true, only one can be true.
You first have to prove a pencil exists in the first place to begin the argument of which color is valid. Just saying they exist, doesn't make them real..
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02:31 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by User00013170: You first have to prove a pencil exists in the first place to begin the argument of which color is valid. Just saying they exist, doesn't make them real..
You are incorrect. You do not need to prove the pencil exists. You do not need to determine which color.
My statement was that WE KNOW that if ANY of the statements are true, ONLY ONE of the statements can be true.
It doesn't matter if you substitute pencils with fairys, gremlins, sea shells, bubble gum, etc. It's not about the subject, it is about the statements.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: You are incorrect. You do not need to prove the pencil exists. You do not need to determine which color.
I don't have to prove diddly as i don't believe in imaginary entities. Its on you to prove it exists.
Until there is proof it exists, its all hearsay and imaginary. Be it your pencil that i have not seen, or your imaginary deity that i have not seen.
( i am talking simple scientific process here.. If you ask others to believe in a theory, you have to prove its a valid one, its not on them to disprove you. And no, wishing it real isn't proof )
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 04-28-2013).]
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03:22 PM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5491 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
I don't believe that multiple religions can be equally correct. I believe only one can be correct. All others are distractions. I believe the one and only one that is correct is Christianity.
Suppose after all this praying, Wichita turns not to Jesus and God but instead turns to, say, Islam or Hinduism. Is that OK? Hindus and Muslims have a god too I think.
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04:13 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
I don't have to prove diddly as i don't believe in imaginary entities. Its on you to prove it exists.
Until there is proof it exists, its all hearsay and imaginary. Be it your pencil that i have not seen, or your imaginary deity that i have not seen.
( i am talking simple scientific process here.. If you ask others to believe in a theory, you have to prove its a valid one, its not on them to disprove you. And no, wishing it real isn't proof )
You're NOT TALKING scientific process here. I am. If you cannot follow a simple example of logic, there's really not much else I can do for you. Re-examine my pencil example and explain to me how any two of those statements can be true at the same time.
Originally posted by css9450: Suppose after all this praying, Wichita turns not to Jesus and God but instead turns to, say, Islam or Hinduism. Is that OK? Hindus and Muslims have a god too I think.
Define OK. What he does or does not do will not change my hope for him that he will spend eternity in Heaven. Do I believe he can do that through Islam or Hinduism? No. I believe that Christ is the one and only path to Heaven.
Originally posted by User00013170: I give up, go ahead and believe in your fairy tails and waste your life living a lie.
And no, don't start praying for me too, its not welcome.
Nurb,
I'm not trying to run you off. Don't get mad. Do you truely not understand the pencil example?
quote
Originally posted by User00013170: I don't have to prove diddly as i don't believe in imaginary entities. Its on you to prove it exists.
Until there is proof it exists, its all hearsay and imaginary. Be it your pencil that i have not seen, or your imaginary deity that i have not seen.
( i am talking simple scientific process here.. If you ask others to believe in a theory, you have to prove its a valid one, its not on them to disprove you. And no, wishing it real isn't proof )
It is clear to me that you have a tendency to read into things. I have not asked you to prove anything. I did not ask you to prove the existance of pencils or prove what color they were. I have not asked you to believe in a deity. I have not asked you to take my word for anything. I have not asked yu to believe in any theories.
I have only stated what I believe. Why does the activity inside my head, heart, and soul trouble you so much?
Define OK. What he does or does not do will not change my hope for him that he will spend eternity in Heaven. Do I believe he can do that through Islam or Hinduism? No. I believe that Christ is the one and only path to Heaven.
I thought so.
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06:36 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Actually, you didn't, other than to confirm you said what you meant to say.
So just to clarify - your personel belief is that those persons who happen to follow a faith other than your own, are not going to heaven? Gosh, I would think (or hope) that a religious person such as yourself would at least consider the possibility that all those millions or billions of Muslims and Hindus might make it to whatever heaven their religion teaches them awaits. Perhaps I am naive, but then again, they're your beliefs, not mine.
Are they going to hell instead? Hell is going to get awfully crowded if you're right.
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07:06 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Actually, you didn't, other than to confirm you said what you meant to say.
So just to clarify - your personel belief is that those persons who happen to follow a faith other than your own, are not going to heaven? Gosh, I would think (or hope) that a religious person such as yourself would at least consider the possibility that all those millions or billions of Muslims and Hindus might make it to whatever heaven their religion teaches them awaits. Perhaps I am naive, but then again, they're your beliefs, not mine.
Are they going to hell instead? Hell is going to get awfully crowded if you're right.
Maybe there are several sets of heaven and hell, segregated by religion, denomination, sect and cult. Or - the Muslim hell is the Christian heaven and vice versa.
In any case, based on the criteria required most heavens must be pretty empty.
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07:15 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I always have to be very carefull when I like something so much that I want others to feel as blissfull as I do. I can get carried away.
Because when I thought about it, it was because "I" wanted it for them. It was about me. They didn't request it, and the best I could do was to make them aware that the same opportunity at bliss that I found also exsisted for them too. And leave it at that.
I can't gaurentee you'll like sweet 'tater pie, but I can make you aware it exsists, and that it tastes alot like punkin' too me!
I have never met anyone that encouraged me to simply find God. They were more interested in me finding their God. It felt more like a sales pitch then a gift.
But I don't fault the game. Compitition is good for everyone. I like pudding. You like cake. We both like sweets.
More pudding for me!
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07:29 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by css9450: Actually, you didn't, other than to confirm you said what you meant to say.
So just to clarify - your personel belief is that those persons who happen to follow a faith other than your own, are not going to heaven? Gosh, I would think (or hope) that a religious person such as yourself would at least consider the possibility that all those millions or billions of Muslims and Hindus might make it to whatever heaven their religion teaches them awaits. Perhaps I am naive, but then again, they're your beliefs, not mine.
Are they going to hell instead? Hell is going to get awfully crowded if you're right.
I think you've got a pretty good handle on it. I don't know if I'm a "religious person", though. I guess it depends on, Your defination.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: You said your rights have been infringed upon yet you don't know when, where, or how.
Just as you can believe in God, I can believe my rights would be infringed upon. Since you don't believe in other religions, or beliefs, you will never see how your actions could infringe upon others.
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07:46 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by jaskispyder: Just as you can believe in God, I can believe my rights would be infringed upon. Since you don't believe in other religions, or beliefs, you will never see how your actions could infringe upon others.
Your responses in this thread are no different than what they are in any other. You hedge. You balk. You avoid. I'm calling BS on this again.
I went to Mass today. I didn't participate in song or ritual. Felt nothing from the Holy Ghost. I did put a few dollars in the offering plate, so I sacrificed for the Lord.
I couldn't help but to think I may be in the wrong church. Although the Catholic Church is a very old one, It might not be a Christian Church, so says a lot of American Evangelicals whose church may have started in 1978, but somehow the 1500+years of the Catholics have been wrong all along.
Dear Mr. Screwtape, please shine some clarity to what this Christian God is and for whom. If their God or followers can't answer this, then may I find salvation within the Lord of the underworld, Mr. Satan himself.
If the Christians cannot save me, then Mr. Satan, my soul is yours.
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08:25 PM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5491 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
All pencils are yellow. All pencils are blue. All pencils are green. All pencils are different colors. Some pencils share the same color.
Without seeing the pencils or knowing what pencils are or only having posession of one pencil, we cannot confirm any of the statements. What we do know is that if any of them are true, only one can be true.
You're attempting to use logic to prove an argument about faith. That, in and of itself, is a logical fallacy. Faith doesn't follow the rules of logic. Faith lives in the realm of emotion, which can and often does defy logic.
Second of all, you're condensing entire belief systems down to a single data point. Belief systems are much more complex than that. For example, many belief systems have similar moral/ethical values. If two different religions both condemn murder, how can one be right and the other wrong, when they're both saying the same thing?
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09:43 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12915 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
Wichita, may I suggest something if you should decide to visit another place of worship? It's something my wife and I did when we lived in New England. On Sunday, we would take the bike out for a ride. A different route every Sunday. When we were in a town and came upon a church around worship time, we would stop and attend worship service. It didn't matter what denomination it was. We attended Church of God, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Methodist, Baptist and even some that I'd never heard of. It gave us a little broader perspective than the religious spectrum in which each of us had been raised. We eventually settled on a particular denomination that we felt was best for us, though it took a couple of decades of not attending at all.
Maybe it will come to be that none will be to your liking, but at least you will have made a more informed decision.
<snip> I couldn't help but to think I may be in the wrong church. Although the Catholic Church is a very old one, It might not be a Christian Church, so says a lot of American Evangelicals whose church may have started in 1978, but somehow the 1500+years of the Catholics have been wrong all along.
Maybe you're looking for something more non-denominational. Reading your responses in this thread I get the sense that there's actually some views we do share, specifically those of traditional religion. Ironically, I'm a long-time member of this group, and even presently serve as VP of the board of trustees or our specific church. And yet, despite my involvement I find I often have far more intelligent conversations with agnostics and atheists than I do your average Bible-thumper. I really have little respect for most traditional religions.
We don't believe in heaven or hell. There's no such thing as "sin", and we focus on living today for the purpose of making the MOST of today, and the afterlife (whatever, if anything that might be) will take care of itself. There' s no guilt, no fire and brimstone. It's based on a metaphysical interpretation of the Bible as opposed to a literal interpretation. Each church has it's own personality, some are more formal and refer to the Bible regularly, others refer to it seldom or not at all. In general, we have a lot in common with Unitarian Universalists, but Unity is a bit more touchy feely where the UU seem to be a much more intellectually based group. I tend to see Unity as a compromise between the UU and the traditional religions. http://www.unity.org/
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10:43 PM
Apr 29th, 2013
css9450 Member
Posts: 5491 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
You're attempting to use logic to prove an argument about faith. That, in and of itself, is a logical fallacy. Faith doesn't follow the rules of logic. Faith lives in the realm of emotion, which can and often does defy logic.
Second of all, you're condensing entire belief systems down to a single data point. Belief systems are much more complex than that. For example, many belief systems have similar moral/ethical values. If two different religions both condemn murder, how can one be right and the other wrong, when they're both saying the same thing?
I haven't even been given the opportunity to ATTEMPT to make a point using this example yet! With all the strong opinions here, I'm surprised that NOONE will commit to agreeing that the pencil statement is logical. Are you all THAT afraid to be aligned with the "village idiot"? Or maybe it is because you find yourselves on the opposite side of the debate table so you REFUSE to concede ANY points, valid or otherwise? And yet, we hear so many comments about what is scientific and what is fantasy, what is a waste of time and what is reality. Apparently you do not have to go to church to find the hypocrites many of you so deeply detest.
Originally posted by css9450: This reminds me SO MUCH of the last "religion" thread I participated in here on the forum. It turned into a game of semantics.
It got old real quick.
It is only semantics if a distinction is never made. I can do that. But you didn't ask.
Originally posted by jaskispyder: Typical response.... only believe in what you want to believe and you call BS on me? hmmm.... yeah.
I never said you couldn't BELIEVE something!! You said that your rights had been infringed on. That is not a matter of "belief"! You made a statement that there was a cause and effect but you have yet to cite an example. So instead of being man enough to admit that you shot off your mouth before putting your brain in gear, you'd rather continue down this rediculous path of bickering. Go roll your eyes somewhere else until you can admit when you were wrong or at the very least, mis-spoke.
You said that your rights had been infringed on. That is not a matter of "belief"!
IT IS a matter of belief. If you believe you can pray to God for someone, I can believe those actions infringe upon my rights (soul). Since you don't believe in any other gods, you will never accept that your actions could be wrong (in a spiritual sense).
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09:02 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by jaskispyder: IT IS a matter of belief. If you believe you can pray to God for someone, I can believe those actions infringe upon my rights (soul). Since you don't believe in any other gods, you will never accept that your actions could be wrong (in a spiritual sense).
I completely disagree. I don't believe in Bigfoot but if you come to me and said you were bit by him, I'd be interested in hearing about it. If you then told me that you have no memory of the incident, no bite marks, no pictures, and no witnesses, you're not TRYING to explain or convince me, you're just BSing me.
Let's pretend I'm a small child in your "Sunday school" or what ever you call the learning system of your belief for children. Please regale me with the tale of the time your rights were infringed upon by an unwanted prayer.
Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'm a long-time member of this group, and even presently serve as VP of the board of trustees or our specific church. And yet, despite my involvement I find I often have far more intelligent conversations with agnostics and atheists than I do your average Bible-thumper. I really have little respect for most traditional religions.
We don't believe in heaven or hell. There's no such thing as "sin", and we focus on living today for the purpose of making the MOST of today, and the afterlife (whatever, if anything that might be) will take care of itself. There' s no guilt, no fire and brimstone. It's based on a metaphysical interpretation of the Bible as opposed to a literal interpretation. Each church has it's own personality, some are more formal and refer to the Bible regularly, others refer to it seldom or not at all. In general, we have a lot in common with Unitarian Universalists, but Unity is a bit more touchy feely where the UU seem to be a much more intellectually based group. I tend to see Unity as a compromise between the UU and the traditional religions. http://www.unity.org/
You USE the Bible for this? The Christian King James sort of Bible? It sounds like you've completely thrown out what Jesus did. If you did not, what was the reason He did what He did?
If you then told me that you have no memory of the incident, no bite marks, no pictures, and no witnesses, you're not TRYING to explain or convince me, you're just BSing me.
Just curious, do you have "bite marks", "pictures" or "witnesses" of which you speak of?
I'd realy like to see the pictures.
Kevin
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10:58 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by Wichita: I went to Mass today. I didn't participate in song or ritual. Felt nothing from the Holy Ghost. I did put a few dollars in the offering plate, so I sacrificed for the Lord.
I couldn't help but to think I may be in the wrong church. Although the Catholic Church is a very old one, It might not be a Christian Church, so says a lot of American Evangelicals whose church may have started in 1978, but somehow the 1500+years of the Catholics have been wrong all along.
Dear Mr. Screwtape, please shine some clarity to what this Christian God is and for whom. If their God or followers can't answer this, then may I find salvation within the Lord of the underworld, Mr. Satan himself.
If the Christians cannot save me, then Mr. Satan, my soul is yours.
I don't know the first thing about Mass. I'm not Catholic. I consider Catholicism to be a religion, not a faith. I'm not into "religions". I don't expect you to find the sort of thing you seem to be looking for at a Catholic church.
Might I suggest a Baptist church? I don't know anything about any houses of worship in your area so I can't say one denomination there does a better job of teaching. In general, Baptists are more basic and fundamental without all the ornamental junk too often found in church.
You say you didn't get the feeling you are looking for. What are your expectations? Have you defined what you want God to be to you or are you willing to open yourself to what God WANTS to be for you? That is a key point. God is what He is. Not what you want Him to be. Get away from religion and find Bible teaching. If the speaker is reading a generic prayer from a book full of them, you're in the wrong place. Prayer is personal. It is talking to God. It is not what someone else thinks it should be. It is YOUR way of communicating with God. It doesn't need to be flowery and impressive to anyone.
God is for everyone but not everyone is for God. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
"The Christians" cannot and will not save you. If that is what you want, you will will not find that here. You will be right about Satan, though.
Originally posted by Lambo nut: Just curious, do you have "bite marks", "pictures" or "witnesses" of which you speak of?
I'd realy like to see the pictures.
Kevin
Exactly which claim that I made do you want pictures from? I have made no claims. I have only told what I believe. That is the difference. You are free to believe me or anyone else.
Exactly which claim that I made do you want pictures from? I have made no claims. I have only told what I believe. That is the difference. You are free to believe me or anyone else.
