Has it never struck you that talking to an imaginary entity in any other circumstance would be considered madness?
Which begs an interesting question; Does one religion think all the others are not talking to any God at all? Are all other's that pray in that way seen as delusional?
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12:37 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I haven't even been given the opportunity to ATTEMPT to make a point using this example yet! With all the strong opinions here, I'm surprised that NOONE will commit to agreeing that the pencil statement is logical. Are you all THAT afraid to be aligned with the "village idiot"? Or maybe it is because you find yourselves on the opposite side of the debate table so you REFUSE to concede ANY points, valid or otherwise? And yet, we hear so many comments about what is scientific and what is fantasy, what is a waste of time and what is reality. Apparently you do not have to go to church to find the hypocrites many of you so deeply detest.
U mad bro?
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I don't know the first thing about Mass. I'm not Catholic. I consider Catholicism to be a religion, not a faith. I'm not into "religions". I don't expect you to find the sort of thing you seem to be looking for at a Catholic church.
Now here's something I can agree with. I never understood why someone would want to have a bureaucracy placed between him / her and God. IMO, that just serves to further remove you from your god.
Which begs an interesting question; Does one religion think all the others are not talking to any God at all? Are all other's that pray in that way seen as delusional?
I wouldn't say that to a Viking if I was you.
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12:44 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
No, not mad. Most of that was generic and not meant to be directed at you personally. However, let no one think that I don't realize that I'm being grilled here and those holding the tongs don't have the courtesy to answer my questions.
Originally posted by Boondawg: Which begs an interesting question; Does one religion think all the others are not talking to any God at all? Are all other's that pray in that way seen as delusional?
Speaking only for myself, I do not think others who pray to gods other than mine are delusional. I assume they are sincerely doing what they think is right. I, however, believe they are not connecting with the one and only God.
No, not mad. Most of that was generic and not meant to be directed at you personally. However, let no one think that I don't realize that I'm being grilled here and those holding the tongs don't have the courtesy to answer my questions.
What questions? Was it that thing about the pencils?
Sorry, but it made no sense. "All pencils are yellow, all pencils are blue, all pencils are green..." Make up your mind. Are they all one color or not? I am sure I'm not the only one who was bewildered by your post.
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12:56 PM
TheDigitalAlchemist Member
Posts: 12623 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Jan 2012
Speaking only for myself, I do not think others who pray to gods other than mine are delusional. I assume they are sincerely doing what they think is right. I, however, believe they are not connecting with the one and only God.
I can see that. Has it ever crossed your mind that "the others" are thinking the same about you and that it may just be that they're right and you're wrong? Since there is no proof either way, it could very well be so, couldn't it?. Or, you may all be wrong but then at least it doesn't matter in the (non-existent) afterlife.
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01:28 PM
PFF
System Bot
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
When we sign on to any particular faith, we generally accept that faith and its beliefs as being the only and correct one. If not, we become a Doubting-Thomas in respect to is it the Only and True faith.
It might be equated with any discretionary decision one would make. Should I open a personal trainer type gym, should I open a yoga studio, should I open a day care, should I be a stock broker, should I sell used Fieros? If we don't make a hard line decision and not look back, then we would never accomplish anything and out mind just might go to the funny farm.
Jonothan has made a decision that his faith is the only one for him, and as most faiths believe, their faith is the supreme faith over all others. Many of you have made the choice that there was never any being who gave his life for the salvation of the world. Just because you didn't see him in person or the miracles of his workings. With that, I guess George Washington, Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, or John Hancock didn't exist.. So be it.
Your beliefs doesn't allow you to speak to wishing (hoping, praying) for the well-being of others. Think about it when your Mother, Father, dear friend, spouse or someone very close to you is critically ill. If you ever do, who are you making that request of? Go grab a homeless guy and see if he can turn things around.
Jon has only asked those who believe in a Supreme Being of the Christian Faiths to request that Wichita's eyes and mind be opened to the possibility that there might be a Supreme Savior. With Wichita's approval, I might add. Why is he being castigated?
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03:25 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by yellowstone: I can see that. Has it ever crossed your mind that "the others" are thinking the same about you and that it may just be that they're right and you're wrong? Since there is no proof either way, it could very well be so, couldn't it?. Or, you may all be wrong but then at least it doesn't matter in the (non-existent) afterlife.
I'm sure others ARE thinking the same thing about me. I have had periods of doubt in my life. God has always brought me back. I thank Him for that.
Proof is in the heart, mind, and eye of the beholder. I have see sufficient proof. What has convinced me might not cause you to bat an eyelash. I cannot speak for you or anyone else as to what might trigger faith.
And let's be very clear here. We are talking about FAITH. It is no coincidence that Jesus came to us before the time of cameras, etc. If there were pictures of Him, those pictures would probably be worshiped. That is not the answer. God wants us to hear His word and see His good works and know that He is God. To believe without proof is much sweeter to Him than believing because of proof. You can't really call that faith, now can you?
I believe you are refering to a leap of faith. That, I get, and am sometimes envious of.
And although I desire for it to be true, the strength of my faith will not support it.
"In short, the older tolerance recognized that there were genuine differences of viewpoint that were under contention, which were mutually exclusive of one another, and which necessitated disagreement — while insisting that those who contended for different perspectives would permit opposing views to be expressed.
The new tolerance insists in the moral equality of all positions, except for the belief that any point of view was wrong, immoral, etc. ... the belief that truth objectively exists, catches up with everyone who believes that there is a fixed reality which must be acknowledge: “… this truth question catches up with all of us. And it affects our broadest visions of what we think is wrong with the world, and how to address it. All of us think in terms of (our own equivalents of) sin and redemption.”
Originally posted by css9450: What questions? Was it that thing about the pencils?
Sorry, but it made no sense. "All pencils are yellow, all pencils are blue, all pencils are green..." Make up your mind. Are they all one color or not? I am sure I'm not the only one who was bewildered by your post.
It is a simple test of logic. Without assuming any information that is not given, see if you agree or disagree with the conclusion.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
If I make the statements:
All pencils are yellow. All pencils are blue. All pencils are green. All pencils are different colors. Some pencils share the same color.
Without seeing the pencils or knowing what pencils are or only having posession of one pencil, we cannot confirm any of the statements. What we do know is that if any of them are true, only one can be true.
When we sign on to any particular faith, we generally accept that faith and its beliefs as being the only and correct one. If not, we become a Doubting-Thomas in respect to is it the Only and True faith.
It might be equated with any discretionary decision one would make. Should I open a personal trainer type gym, should I open a yoga studio, should I open a day care, should I be a stock broker, should I sell used Fieros? If we don't make a hard line decision and not look back, then we would never accomplish anything and out mind just might go to the funny farm.
Jonothan has made a decision that his faith is the only one for him, and as most faiths believe, their faith is the supreme faith over all others. Many of you have made the choice that there was never any being who gave his life for the salvation of the world. Just because you didn't see him in person or the miracles of his workings. With that, I guess George Washington, Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, or John Hancock didn't exist.. So be it.
Your beliefs doesn't allow you to speak to wishing (hoping, praying) for the well-being of others. Think about it when your Mother, Father, dear friend, spouse or someone very close to you is critically ill. If you ever do, who are you making that request of? Go grab a homeless guy and see if he can turn things around.
Jon has only asked those who believe in a Supreme Being of the Christian Faiths to request that Wichita's eyes and mind be opened to the possibility that there might be a Supreme Savior. With Wichita's approval, I might add. Why is he being castigated?
Thanks for your thoughts. That is one way of looking at it. Not far from my own!
Originally posted by fierofool: Jon has only asked those who believe in a Supreme Being of the Christian Faiths to request that Wichita's eyes and mind be opened to the possibility that there might be a Supreme Savior. With Wichita's approval, I might add. Why is he being castigated?
"Castigated" - Good word! I'll add that one to my book!
Heh That woman's makes me chuckle. "And he without sin, cast the first negative rating..."
edit:
OOoOo, Boosted, I just rated you (+) and your bar showed up!
I feel like we just had a baby together or something. Or maybe it's just that I haven't had my coffee yet...?
Thanks for the (+) ! Interesting position of the Arrowhead! I'm pretty certain I've been respectful in my posts. Anybody want to PM me as to why I got negs? And for the record, I've not given any negs since I started this thread.
Originally posted by 85sliverGT: I can tell you why your getting negs, it's because a lot of people disagree with you and unfortunatly people use the rating system to express that.
If they disagree with me, then I obviously disagree with them. Am I supposed to give them negs also? I want to be sure I'm doing this right.
Do whatever you feel. I don't think giving someone a neg because you disagree with them is proper use of the rating system, but that's how it works in O/T
Disclaimer: *I have not given any ratings in this thread*
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08:33 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Do whatever you feel. I don't think giving someone a neg because you disagree with them is proper use of the rating system, but that's how it works in O/T
Disclaimer: *I have not given any ratings in this thread*
Looks like I got another neg. Eh... don't express an opinion, otherwise you are neg'ed
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09:03 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Do whatever you feel. I don't think giving someone a neg because you disagree with them is proper use of the rating system, but that's how it works in O/T
Disclaimer: *I have not given any ratings in this thread*
I was being a little sarcastic. I have felt like giving negs in this thread but I haven't because I felt it went against the theme. I'd be lying if I said I didn't care. I've waited 6 years and 3500 posts to get a ratings bar and when I finally do, there are just as many negs as positives. I feel like I've been kicked in the gut. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
Has it never struck you that the central premise of religion is that you're not talking to an imaginary entity?
Your point is important and valid. Without the three fundamental assumptions:
1. God is real, 2. Jesus had supernatural powers and therefore can't be questioned, 3. Jesus showed up for a reason ...
... there is nothing to discuss beyond those points and I don't understand why people try. Any disagreement on the assumptions dead-ends the discussion. If someone does agree with those assumptions then it moves directly into theo-philosophy and anything goes but it's irrelevant to a non-believer.
I remain perplexed on the direction of this thread.
I applaud you for your thought for Wichita, but not so much for the public display to do so. Pray in private for him or others if need be. Due to my past dealings with Christians, I haven't been to church in three years and have no desire to go back. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in God, but I've gotten a hardened heart from Christians that've stabbed me in the back at work. Society has played a part as well. I'll pull out of it........IN MY OWN TIME.
I know now what MEM comes from when he's said multiple times for religious people to just leave him alone. The family had a cookout Sunday and my dad let me know that he gave the church my new address and the "G.R.O.W." team will be making a visit. I dread that day and am afraid that it won't be a pleasent time.
Paul
[This message has been edited by kyunderdawg (edited 04-30-2013).]
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12:26 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
I applaud you for your thought for Wichita, but not so much for the public display to do so. Pray in private for him or others if need be. Due to my past dealings with Christians, I haven't been to church in three years and have no desire to go back. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in God, but I've gotten a hardened heart from Christians that've stabbed me in the back at work. Society has played a part as well. I'll pull out of it........IN MY OWN TIME.
I know now what MEM comes from when he's said multiple times for religious people to just leave him alone. The family had a cookout Sunday and my dad let me know that he gave the church my new address and the "G.R.O.W." team will be making a visit. I dread that day and am afraid that it won't be a pleasent time.
Paul
Paul, thanks for the applause. It has been much different than I ever expected it to be. I agree with the "pray in private" part. I do. I have not let my actual prayers be known. I am just letting one subject of my prayers be known. This thread was started as a reminder. A reminder to me to do what I told Wichita I'd do. A reminder for other Christians who wanted to participate that the quest was on-going.
I never expected this thing to run away like wild fire but I guess it is better than being ignored. Gotta take the good with the bad ( or inconvenient). Even with all the ridicule, I have been blessed by this thread. I have re-newed my commitment to daily prayer and I get to explore my own faith as I try to answer questions.
I understand what you mean about people wanting to witness but can't take a hint when they're not welcome. That goes both ways. People who don't believe try just as hard to influence those that do. I guess it is an "A" type personality thing.
I applaud you for your thought for Wichita, but not so much for the public display to do so. Pray in private for him or others if need be. Due to my past dealings with Christians, ......................
Paul
Paul, I'd like to echo your thoughts. It is the duty of a believer to pray for the lost. It is our duty to pray "unceasingly". With Wichita's permission, I applaud and support this thread.
The result, however, is up to Wichita.
Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Luke 11:9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
The bumper sticker said, "If we were perfect, we wouldn't need forgiveness." Christians aren't perfect, ESPECIALLY in some of their 'church' activities.
I'd encourage you, AND Wichita to focus on the cross. That is were Christianity began. Focus on what Jesus did and what it means. The 'church', (all of them) in many cases has so distorted the gospel message that it is unrecognizable. Jesus chastised the Jews of his day for their rituals and "laws of men" and their hypocrisy.
Matthew 15:9 ESV "In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”
Long before Jesus; long before the church and her rituals, Abraham was a wandering herdsman. The Bible says of him, "And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith." Genesis 15:6
Jesus said, "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.", and then there is John 3:16.
Jesus told the disciples to shake the dust off their feet if their testimony was rejected and to move on. Sometimes we have to do that with churches too. We shouldn't stay so long in a church that it weakens or destroys our faith.
Turn your eyes toward Jesus. Renew your faith and reject that which is not true to God's word. The church didn't, can't, and won't save us.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8-9
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02:03 PM
kyunderdawg Member
Posts: 4373 From: Bowling Green, KY. USA Registered: Aug 2008
Thank you, texas. I will respond later when I'm away from work and have more time. Though we've never met, I have much respect for you..........and your comedic timing ( in other threads ) .
I dread that day and am afraid that it won't be a pleasent time.
