And there is no room for religion in the military. They have a job to do.
While I agree that as a public institution, religion should not have any official role in the military IMO, the fact is that there isn't a better way to make people kill or die happily than a belief that "deus vult". Disclaimer: this is not aimed at the US military in particular but all of them.
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08:10 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by yellowstone: While I agree that as a public institution, religion should not have any official role in the military IMO, the fact is that there isn't a better way to make people kill or die happily than a belief that "deus vult". Disclaimer: this is not aimed at the US military in particular but all of them.
That may be true. I don't know. I never had that feeling or belief. Religion or faith of any kind was never pushed on us. People attended church of their own free will.
Serving in the military is not about turning normal people into killing machines. It is a job like many others. Some people go into it for reasons more patriotic or more mercenary than others. That is the individual. They are all trained to do a job or MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). That MOS might be truck driver, heavy equipment operator, military police, payroll or benefits clerk, etc. The "jobs" that military personnel perform usually have a civilian equivilant. Service members spend a far greater time performing the duties of their MOS than they spend pointing weapons at live targets.
So it stands to reason that if military personnel spend most of their time being normal people in normal jobs, they would need to also be able to practice their faith as they normally would. That has always been allowed until now. But that's all fine. We have too many pesky rights and privileges now and they do little more than confuse the poor souls they were created for. Thank goodness this administration will clear out as many as they can. God bless them.
So it stands to reason that if military personnel spend most of their time being normal people in normal jobs, they would need to also be able to practice their faith as they normally would.
Absolutely, why shouldn't they? Just the military itself should not have a role in it.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-02-2013).]
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09:16 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
What if one has an opinion that those who say they follow and are example of the Christian ways are condescending in speech, crass is conduct, selfish in love, hypocritical in faith, and exemplify no purity. What if one believes Christians are evil. What then?
We all have opinions. The true Christian should continue to do it right, and maybe they'll get noticed by the person with that opinion instead of the people you describe above. Maybe they wont. But Jesus is the real example.
Texasfiero said it well.
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09:57 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by yellowstone: Absolutely, why shouldn't they? Just the military itself should not have a role in it.
Some bases are tighter than others. Field operations can last for weeks and longer. What if a soldier is on restrictions and cannot leave the base? What if the unit is in a lock down? Who's going to be authorized to come onto those bases to conduct services? Who's going to be allowed into secure or tactical exercise areas to conduct services. For security and safety purposes alone, the military needs to provide these things to their own.
Some bases are tighter than others. Field operations can last for weeks and longer. What if a soldier is on restrictions and cannot leave the base? What if the unit is in a lock down? Who's going to be authorized to come onto those bases to conduct services? Who's going to be allowed into secure or tactical exercise areas to conduct services. For security and safety purposes alone, the military needs to provide these things to their own.
Or people can just practice quietly on their own ( and not try to indoctrinate others ). Since everyone there currently is a volunteer, they should have accepted the restrictions up front. Due to its very nature, military life requires compromises, and this is one of them. There are others too.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-02-2013).]
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10:29 AM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by User00013170: Or people can just practice quietly on their own ( and not try to indoctrinate others ). Since everyone there currently is a volunteer, they should have accepted the restrictions up front. Due to its very nature, military life requires compromises, and this is one of them. There are others too.
I read my contract. There was no mention of religous restrictions up front. Military life DOES require compromises. The practice of faith is NOT one of them. The military, like most industries, try very hard to attract a representative sample of the population. Integration of all kinds is the goal.
I have yet to go to any church service where members drag unsuspecting citizens in and "try to indoctrinate" them. If a soldier doesn't want to attend the worship service, he doesn't have to. His choice. Some faiths are not meant to be quietly practiced on your own. Christianity for example. Why don't people get taken to Heaven as soon as they give their lives to Jesus? Simple, they need to spread the gospel (good news) of Jesus.
Mark 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Why is it OK for you to say what a Christian should do when you're not one but it is wrong for a Christian to do what they think is right?
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Why is it OK for you to say what a Christian should do when you're not one but it is wrong for a Christian to do what they think is right?
Because they are wrong.
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12:24 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
I read my contract. There was no mention of religous restrictions up front. Military life DOES require compromises. The practice of faith is NOT one of them. The military, like most industries, try very hard to attract a representative sample of the population. Integration of all kinds is the goal.
Not everything is in black and white. I still say 'faith' has NO place in the military. It only gets in the way of the job that needs to be done.
Nurb, What branch of the military did you serve in?
It isn't relevant. I'm was referring to Christians being wrong ( in response to the question of why i can say what i said, aside from my right of free speech... ).
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 05-02-2013).]
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12:28 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by User00013170: It isn't relevant. I'm was referring to Christians being wrong ( in response to the question of why i can say what i said, aside from my right of free speech... ).
Originally posted by User00013170: Or people can just practice quietly on their own ( and not try to indoctrinate others ).
When I was in the military, nobody tried to indoctrinate anyone with religious ideology. Church attendance was voluntary. It is a service that the military provides to those who want it, not a requirement or an indoctrination tool.
There are very good reasons for the military to have their own clergymen. Even as an agnostic, I understood why the religious service members should have clergymen available to them. The conditions that soldiers endure while on duty can absolutely crush their morale. For a military unit, keeping morale up is EXTREMELY important. For many soldiers, spiritual support can help with that. But trucking in 3rd-party clergymen can quickly become a logistical (and security) nightmare. Hence the military chaplains.
On a side note, I find it ironic that some of the atheists here are just as intolerant as the religious people whom you are mocking. And you seem just as eager to push YOUR ideology on THEM. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
When I was in the military, nobody tried to indoctrinate anyone with religious ideology. Church attendance was voluntary. It is a service that the military provides to those who want it, not a requirement or an indoctrination tool.
I didn't mean that it was, just that it shouldn't be.
On a side note, I find it ironic that some of the atheists here are just as intolerant as the religious people whom you are mocking. And you seem just as eager to push YOUR ideology on THEM. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
I'm not an Atheist, but thanks for playing
( and Christians/etc can believe what they want, even when it is mostly a scam based on superstition and peoples innate weaknesses . But until i have proof otherwise, ill still say they are wrong and misguided for not having facts but claiming its 'truth'. )
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01:18 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.
Luke 6:28 Bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
2.5 hang in there bud. Boostdreamer I am with you brother. Surprised by the people whom seem to be decent on this forum, yet you mention the Lord and they become just the opposite.
Peace be with you
[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 05-04-2013).]
Originally posted by solotwo: 2.5 hang in there bud. Boostdreamer I am with you brother. Surprised by the people whom seem to be decent on this forum, yet you mention the Lord and they become just the opposite.
Peace be with you
Thanks for the support! I appreciate it! This thread has been very eye opening for me.
Question! Let's take one version, like Mark. The vast majority of Christians never have read or heard the entire story of the book of Mark. So how can you know what example Jesus needs to be to you.
If Jesus is the example, I have to ask, Why Jesus. Is there not others?
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07:32 PM
CrazyDragn Member
Posts: 1400 From: Kingsport, TN 37663 Registered: Aug 2009
Question! Let's take one version, like Mark. The vast majority of Christians never have read or heard the entire story of the book of Mark. So how can you know what example Jesus needs to be to you.
If Jesus is the example, I have to ask, Why Jesus. Is there not others?
Yes, there are other Jesus has placed here to lead by example. However, those people follow Jesus so they can lead by example, at least the moral ones. The first four books of the Bible are there to show the different understanddings that lead to one conclusion. HE IS LORD OF ALL. Doesn't matter if you believe in Him, He believes in you.
Originally posted by Wichita: Which version of Jesus?
Question! Let's take one version, like Mark. The vast majority of Christians never have read or heard the entire story of the book of Mark. So how can you know what example Jesus needs to be to you.
If Jesus is the example, I have to ask, Why Jesus. Is there not others?
Asking which version of Jesus is like asking which version of Jonathan do you want to respond to this thread. Do you want "husband Jonathan" ? Do you want "student Jonathan"? Do you want "father Jonathan"? Do you want "neighbor Jonathan"? Do you want "lazy bum around the house in my underwear Jonathan"?
They are all me. I'm not any one of them all day long. I have to be different things to different people and different in different situations. All still me, though.
If Jesus is the example, I have to ask, Why Jesus. Is there not others?
Jesus is the example because He is the only being to have ever been born, lived, and died without sin. There are no others that I'm aware of who make that claim.
Jesus is the example because He is the only being to have ever been born, lived, and died without sin. There are no others that I'm aware of who make that claim.
Why then that most versions (canonized versions) only have Jesus life referenced the day he was born, then nothing for 33 years of his life, then Jesus story resumes only the last year if his life. Who knows if Jesus sinned during those 33-years of his life that were not spoken of (canonized versions).
There are other gospels that speak of Jesus during childhood, where Jesus sinned and even murdered a kid.
Jesus was baptized, so that is when his sins were washed away.
To me, there isn't anything appealing or exciting about Jesus. Not for sure he is a good enough. It is so ambiguous and clouded by doubt, just don't see why God would choose such a unclear and mildly complicated story of a Jewish Preacher. It doesn't feel like something a God would do.
If this story of Jesus and the belief of that story is the work of God and the only way to that God's home and salvation. Dang, I really question the intelligence of such a God. It's not a God I would follow.
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10:19 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Originally posted by Wichita: Why then that most versions (canonized versions) only have Jesus life referenced the day he was born, then nothing for 33 years of his life, then Jesus story resumes only the last year if his life. Who knows if Jesus sinned during those 33-years of his life that were not spoken of (canonized versions).
There are other gospels that speak of Jesus during childhood, where Jesus sinned and even murdered a kid.
Jesus was baptized, so that is when his sins were washed away.
To me, there isn't anything appealing or exciting about Jesus. Not for sure he is a good enough. It is so ambiguous and clouded by doubt, just don't see why God would choose such a unclear and mildly complicated story of a Jewish Preacher. It doesn't feel like something a God would do.
If this story of Jesus and the belief of that story is the work of God and the only way to that God's home and salvation. Dang, I really question the intelligence of such a God. It's not a God I would follow.
We know Jesus DID NOT sin because Satan had to go to Him personally and tempt Him to sin.
If there is a story of Jesus sinning as a child, it is not a "gospel" and it is a false writing.
Baptisim does not wash away sin. It is a public showing of a commitment to God.
Need an exciting savior? He walked on water. He resisted sin including the direct temptation of Satan. He brought people back from the dead. He healed blind and lame people, He healed lepers, He turned water into wine. He fed multitudes with five loaves and two fish. He stood up to every authority figure of His time. He was beaten until He could bleed no more and was still not dead. He rose from the grave on His own power. He asked for forgivness of those who nailed Him to the cross. He could have called angels down to set Him free from the cross but He CHOSE to stay there until His life was finished.
We know Jesus DID NOT sin because Satan had to go to Him personally and tempt Him to sin.
If there is a story of Jesus sinning as a child, it is not a "gospel" and it is a false writing.
Baptisim does not wash away sin. It is a public showing of a commitment to God.
Need an exciting savior? He walked on water. He resisted sin including the direct temptation of Satan. He brought people back from the dead. He healed blind and lame people, He healed lepers, He turned water into wine. He fed multitudes with five loaves and two fish. He stood up to every authority figure of His time. He was beaten until He could bleed no more and was still not dead. He rose from the grave on His own power. He asked for forgivness of those who nailed Him to the cross. He could have called angels down to set Him free from the cross but He CHOSE to stay there until His life was finished.
What more were you looking for?
It's just a story that is made up like many of them are. I can tell you the story of Superman or lets take Buddha for example. The day he was born Buddha he was able to talk and took seven steps. Buddha utter these words the day of his birth:
"I am chief of the world, Eldest am I in the world, Foremost am I in the world. This is the last birth. There is now no more coming to be."
Buddha also had miracles quite similar to Jesus. He healed people, he walked across water, he turned undrinkable water into clean drinkable water, he saw the future and also went to a deathless state where he left his earthbound body after he had his final meal with his disciples (last supper).
The story of Buddha is quite similar to Jesus, with the only exception is that the story of Buddha was before Jesus.
Besides that point. I have some questions for you.
Question: You speak of Angels. What are Angels? What do they look like? What do you do in heaven when you get there?
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 05-05-2013).]
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12:14 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Thinking about it like that, it could start to seem like slavery.
Once to are granted entrance to Heaven, can you ever do anything to be kicked out? Do you have free will in heaven? Because, if achieving Heaven is still no guarantee to everlasting peace & joy, then all it really is just more hoops to jump through. For eternity.
The Everlasting Upsale....
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-05-2013).]
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12:22 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20687 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Thinking about it like that, it could start to seem like slavery.
Once to are granted entrance to Heaven, can you ever do anything to be kicked out? Do you have free will in heaven? Because, if achieving Heaven is still no guarantee to everlasting peace & joy, then all it really is just more hoops to jump through. For eternity.
The Everlasting Upsale....
But you can get there with just your last dying breath. You can go your whole life sinning, then at the last moment, say you believe in Jesus and be at the pearly gates.
Sort of like Jesus's whole life didn't matter much, just the last year towards his death that matter.
"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
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12:46 AM
CrazyDragn Member
Posts: 1400 From: Kingsport, TN 37663 Registered: Aug 2009
It's just a story that is made up like many of them are. I can tell you the story of Superman or lets take Buddha for example. The day he was born Buddha he was able to talk and took seven steps. Buddha utter these words the day of his birth:
"I am chief of the world, Eldest am I in the world, Foremost am I in the world. This is the last birth. There is now no more coming to be."
Buddha also had miracles quite similar to Jesus. He healed people, he walked across water, he turned undrinkable water into clean drinkable water, he saw the future and also went to a deathless state where he left his earthbound body after he had his final meal with his disciples (last supper).
The story of Buddha is quite similar to Jesus, with the only exception is that the story of Buddha was before Jesus.
Besides that point. I have some questions for you.
Question: You speak of Angels. What are Angels? What do they look like? What do you do in heaven when you get there?
Confucius was before that time too yet he still lays where his heart stopped.
I CAN take you to Buhda's Grave, however - Jesus is not in his. Matter of fact, all those who claim to be the messiah are all in their graes still to this day - all but ONE.
Budhism and all other forms of religion are just that religion -this is because you have to do things to stay in good standings. Faith is of Jesus Christ - you do nothing but believe and follow Him in his teachings and turn your ways away from the evil one.
The Greatest trick the Devil ever pulled - was trying to make you think he (the Devil) didn't exist.
If you really read the Bible, then you know of storys when Jesus was a child. Being taught to be a carpenter, and stories of being left behind in the city (as a child) who was "about his Fathers work" teaching to the elders of the church - during the time a census was being taken in bethelham. Also, they were hiding Jesus from Harod.
The Bible was also passed down first hand. You don''t get this just by reading but by researching geneology - the Bible gives you this geneology for a purpose. Adam lived long enough and new Methusela the oldest recorded living human on earth (Noah's Daddy) and I could continue about who new who and how it was passsed down - but I would rather you find these things out by reading the Bible - It's there.
I tell you this thru peacefull thoughts and pray for you my brother.
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