quote Originally posted by Formula88: ray believes the government should tax wealth.

yes he does

where did your all or nothing BS post go ?

quote Originally posted by ray b: wealth is the most rational thing to tax

So if a person acquires a fair amount of wealth, but looses his ability to add to it, do you tax his wealth until he as what, homeless?
How much gets taken from him? What dollar value does one gather before he is determined they have enough wealth that it becomes taxable?

Will we have a couple of million wealth inspectors for those items that the government can't see?
What if the person has his wealth in collectables, will the government have inspectors that are experts at determining the value of those?

Doubt if the loonies who push this have it all figured out, but it sounds so fair.
Guess they will read the bill "AFTER IT PASSES".
Working out so well for the unaffordable healthcare act so far.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: So if a person acquires a fair amount of wealth, but looses his ability to add to it, do you tax his wealth until he as what, homeless? How much gets taken from him? What dollar value does one gather before he is determined they have enough wealth that it becomes taxable? Will we have a couple of million wealth inspectors for those items that the government can't see? What if the person has his wealth in collectables, will the government have inspectors that are experts at determining the value of those? Doubt if the loonies who push this have it all figured out, but it sounds so fair. Guess they will read the bill "AFTER IT PASSES". Working out so well for the unaffordable healthcare act so far.

How about we tax everyone the same, no deductions for anyone or anything, would that make you happy?

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

there is the all or nothing tax him untill he is homeless BS

wealth tax would be a small % only on the millionaire up classes

quote Originally posted by ray b: wealth tax would be a small % only on the millionaire up classes

What is small, what %?
Please explain millionaire class.
Is it what one makes in salary or what one has acquired in tangible items?
Sure the way you are pushing this you have the answers.
Lay it out exactly how it will work and how it will be enforced so no one cheats.
Love to hear it.

quote Originally posted by ray b: there is the all or nothing tax him untill he is homeless BS wealth tax would be a small % only on the millionaire up classes

You moron. Libertarians don't want to tax ANYONE, but that don't make you happy because you want to see people get a free ride. Who becomes the slaves then?

Idiot.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: You moron. Libertarians don't want to tax ANYONE, but that don't make you happy because you want to see people get a free ride. Who becomes the slaves then? Idiot.

I guess you can't debate ideas that donot fit your dogma

the people currently getting a free ride are the Rmoney class people
who export our jobs
and hide their wealth offshore too

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: How about we tax everyone the same, no deductions for anyone or anything, would that make you happy? Steve

I am not pushing anything, so I cannot answer your question.
Besides who get to determine what is fair, don't think it is you or me.

But for sure I am against any HATE tax that is put on any class of people.
That seems to be what goes on allot.
You get the sheep to hate something or someone to the point that taxing them to the max makes the haters feel they got their revenge.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: What is small, what %? Please explain millionaire class. Is it what one makes in salary or what one has acquired in tangible items? Sure the way you are pushing this you have the answers. Lay it out exactly how it will work and how it will be enforced so no one cheats. Love to hear it.

what is the current property tax rates ?
there is a good model for wealth tax rates

no one cheats ? I live in the real world !
like nobody cheats on income tax now ?

quote Originally posted by ray b: what is the current property tax rates ? there is a good model for wealth tax rates no one cheats ? I live in the real world ! like nobody cheats on income tax now ?

Lay out your "detailed" plan to tax wealth so one can debate you.
Doing what you say would be very complicated, not just one liners.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I guess you can't debate ideas that donot fit your dogma the people currently getting a free ride are the Rmoney class people who export our jobs and hide their wealth offshore too

More brilliance from the moron. The irony just don't quit with you.

Talk about not being able to debate ideas that don't fit *your* "dogma". Where's your rebuttal to no one paying taxes? Oh yeah, that's right, no free rides if no taxes.

Talk about dogma.

idiot.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Lay out your "detailed" plan to tax wealth so one can debate you. Doing what you say would be very complicated, not just one liners.

yes it would
but doing the right thing even if hard
is no excuse for not doing the right thing


like our current system is not complicated ?
or unfair with workers paying far more as a % then Rmoney does

btw this is a car board with a very far right slant to it mostly
and I am not in a position to pass any tax reform program anyway

can we discuss ideas without demanding every last detail ?

quote Originally posted by ray b: yes it would but doing the right thing even if hard is no excuse for not doing the right thing <snip>

Oh, you mean, doing the "right" thing, like letting everyone KEEP what they earn, and requiring people to EARN the things they want, and no free handouts? I couldn't agree more.

quote Originally posted by ray b: yes it would but doing the right thing even if hard is no excuse for not doing the right thing like our current system is not complicated ? or unfair with workers paying far more as a % then Rmoney does btw this is a car board with a very far right slant to it mostly and I am not in a position to pass any tax reform program anyway can we discuss ideas without demanding every last detail ?

Let's stick to taxing wealth.
Sure you must have some details how that would work beyond taxing one's house works. Homes can be seen and have addresses.
This idea is so complex, how would you even begin to asses ones wealth that they have acquired?
A friend of mine has no income, but has several million in collectables. Is he exempt, if not who determines what they are worth?
Simple questions for you.?

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Let's stick to taxing wealth. Sure you must have some details how that would work beyond taxing one's house works. Homes can be seen and have addresses. This idea is so complex, how would you even begin to asses ones wealth that they have acquired? A friend of mine has no income, but has several million in collectables. Is he exempt, if not who determines what they are worth? Simple questions for you.?

so under the current system your millionaire collector example pays very little tax [ no income]
but joe mini wage worker get hit with ss 15% plus a little income tax and other consumption taxes like beer or sales taxes
and with a flat tax many on the right favor joe pays even more
and your millionaire NOTHING
AND THAT IS FAIR JUST AND RIGHT ? OR AT LEAST RIGHTWING ?

DETAILS are far out of my hands
will be argued by the house and senate to death
idea is low tax on all wealth with high starting point
a millionaire tax basicly
so yes your millionaire should pay too

The drooling envy and attempt to forcefully covet what some one else might have using a mob has got to be one of, if not the lowest form of human behavior.

The constant barrage of Romney this and rich guy of the week that, and how they are somehow cheating by using tax right offs (laws) to lower their tax burden that were in fact enacted for the sole purpose of social engineering in the first place! is beyond stupid. Or the ever popular unicorn they named "loophole" to get their idiot base excited and lighting the torches.

and you want joe 1099 to pay more tax in total % on mini wages
then Rmoney paid on millions

and that is fair

btw the right has also wanted no capitail gain tax at all
so both Rmoney and your millionaire collector pay nothing
and you want no red ink ether
so joe 1099's pay even more ?

Romney paid/pays MILLIONS your Joe blow probably paid single digit thousands. Pesky dammed math always get's in the way of progressive theory/fantasy.

What do you think social engineering through taxation IS, how do you think he "got away" with it. This is of course rhetorical, that means I do not expect an answer

SO FREE RIDES FOR THE RICH IS THE PROGRAM

and tax the poor harder too

and you wonder why the GOP is shrinking ?

Why not free rides for everyone in the form of no tax at all. You know, like I said earlier, keep what you earn, and earn what you want. Where's the unfairness there?

I also don't expect an answer. Again.

quote Originally posted by ray b: so under the current system your millionaire collector example pays very little tax [ no income] but joe mini wage worker get hit with ss 15% plus a little income tax and other consumption taxes like beer or sales taxes and with a flat tax many on the right favor joe pays even more and your millionaire NOTHING AND THAT IS FAIR JUST AND RIGHT ? OR AT LEAST RIGHTWING ? DETAILS are far out of my hands will be argued by the house and senate to death idea is low tax on all wealth with high starting point a millionaire tax basicly so yes your millionaire should pay too

Well he did acquire what he has with money that was taxed during his working years. If he sells any of them for more than he paid he will be taxed on the profit he makes.
And if he dies before that his estate will be hit.
So that is not fair to you?

And your tax the wealth will never come to pass, it is not viable.
You or no one else alive has the brains to figure this pipe dream out.

Maybe you should send your proposal to the head of the senate, I am sure Harry and his wealth will welcome it with open arms.
Remember he is on your side, can't get much more left than him.

left of a sitting senator is far eazyer then you think

I class most all demo's as centrists far closer to center then you or me on our sides anyway
you do note their leadership is rich there is a clue

problem is the rightwing has no idea how far off center they are
and they think centrists are reds or at least very pink

I am not a commie or really socialist just an extreme liberal
but
unlike the extreme rightwing
I understand I am on a fringe
your side doesNOT grasp that fact about their positions

If everyone should be taxed equally and I believe they should, then the Mega-Billionaires should be taxed at the same percentage as the grocery store clerk, the fast food worker, the receptionist, the Executive Secretary, and so on up the income ladder. The real estate and personal property taxes are a function of local governments and those are based upon the value of the particular commodity. Everyone pays the same percentage on their real estate or personal property should it be located within the same tax district.

Income is currently taxed on a progressive percentage. The less your income the lower percentage income tax is paid. The higher the income, the higher the percentage of income tax is paid. Income differs from investment income. That's what the media and the government failed to point out when during all the hulla-balloo about Warren Buffet and his Secretary. Warren Buffet had investment dividends as the source of his continued wealth. He was taxed at 15% and he paid what the law required.

Isn't our goal to become successful and wealthy? Why do we want to tax success at such a high rate? So the money can be used as handouts to those who know they can get a free paycheck from the government if they sit on their butts. Feed, clothe, house your kid, provide his transportation, support his girlfriend or wife and his kids and he'll never leave your home. Provide Section 8 housing, food stamps, welfare, cell phones at no cost to the person and they'll never pay a dime in taxes.

His secretary worked for a salary or paycheck and that's where her wealth came from. As a person receiving a paycheck for the fruits of her labor, she was required to pay more than 33% of her income in the form of tax. Under the current tax laws, both were paying what was legally required of them. So was the janitor that cleaned Mr. Buffet's and his Executive Secretary's office each night, though each was likely paying a different percentage.

The only way to make it fair on the janitor, the secretary and Mr. Buffet or anyone that falls into the same bracket of wealth as those or any other person, is to enact a national sales tax. So far the only equitable proposal has been the Fair Tax whereby everyone pays the same percentage of tax on every dollar they spend. Now, rayb, would that be fair to you if Mr. Buffet paid the same percentage of tax that you do?

No taxes on any money you receive until you spend it. That would encompass those who currently don't pay taxes, like the ones who who work for cash under the counter, tax cheats who don't report all their income and even including people from foreign countries who come here as tourists.

quote Originally posted by ray b: left of a sitting senator is far eazyer then you think I class most all demo's as centrists far closer to center then you or me on our sides anyway you do note their leadership is rich there is a clue problem is the rightwing has no idea how far off center they are and they think centrists are reds or at least very pink I am not a commie or really socialist just an extreme liberal but unlike the extreme rightwing I understand I am on a fringe your side doesNOT grasp that fact about their positions

I am very far right, have no problem admitting it.
But define the middle.
That is the tricky part, as you won't get many to agree with you.

For me the middle is simple, is is the documents that our forefathers laid out.
Define your middle.
For

equal numbers on both side defines the center

quote Originally posted by fierofool: If everyone should be taxed equally and I believe they should, then the Mega-Billionaires should be taxed at the same percentage as the grocery store clerk, the fast food worker, the receptionist, the Executive Secretary, and so on up the income ladder. The real estate and personal property taxes are a function of local governments and those are based upon the value of the particular commodity. Everyone pays the same percentage on their real estate or personal property should it be located within the same tax district. Income is currently taxed on a progressive percentage. The less your income the lower percentage income tax is paid. The higher the income, the higher the percentage of income tax is paid. Income differs from investment income. That's what the media and the government failed to point out when during all the hulla-balloo about Warren Buffet and his Secretary. Warren Buffet had investment dividends as the source of his continued wealth. He was taxed at 15% and he paid what the law required. Isn't our goal to become successful and wealthy? Why do we want to tax success at such a high rate? So the money can be used as handouts to those who know they can get a free paycheck from the government if they sit on their butts. Feed, clothe, house your kid, provide his transportation, support his girlfriend or wife and his kids and he'll never leave your home. Provide Section 8 housing, food stamps, welfare, cell phones at no cost to the person and they'll never pay a dime in taxes. His secretary worked for a salary or paycheck and that's where her wealth came from. As a person receiving a paycheck for the fruits of her labor, she was required to pay more than 33% of her income in the form of tax. Under the current tax laws, both were paying what was legally required of them. So was the janitor that cleaned Mr. Buffet's and his Executive Secretary's office each night, though each was likely paying a different percentage. The only way to make it fair on the janitor, the secretary and Mr. Buffet or anyone that falls into the same bracket of wealth as those or any other person, is to enact a national sales tax. So far the only equitable proposal has been the Fair Tax whereby everyone pays the same percentage of tax on every dollar they spend. Now, rayb, would that be fair to you if Mr. Buffet paid the same percentage of tax that you do? No taxes on any money you receive until you spend it. That would encompass those who currently don't pay taxes, like the ones who who work for cash under the counter, tax cheats who don't report all their income and even including people from foreign countries who come here as tourists.

i favor progressive tax rates
those with the most pay the most

I doNOT favor regressive taxes that take from those with the least the most
like flat or sales taxes

quote Originally posted by ray b: equal numbers on both side defines the center

An undefinable middle, pretty much.
Considering many in this country have no idea where they stand, as you stated earlier.
So I guess we will have to let you tell the country where it actually stands.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: An undefinable middle, pretty much. Considering many in this country have no idea where they stand, as you stated earlier. So I guess we will have to let you tell the country where it actually stands.

And don't forget there is a significant group of people that believe the right vs. left and republican vs. democrat are complete false dichotomies.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: And don't forget there is a significant group of people that believe the right vs. left and republican vs. democrat are complete false dichotomies.

quote Originally posted by ray b: i favor progressive tax rates those with the most pay the most I doNOT favor regressive taxes that take from those with the least the most like flat or sales taxes

Then you don't think that every person should pay the same tax on each dollar they have?

From WikiPedia:
A flat tax (short for flat tax rate) is a tax system with a constant marginal rate, usually applied to individual or corporate income. A flat tax falls under proportional tax as they allow certain deductions.

Progressive Tax: A flat tax (short for flat tax rate) is a tax system with a constant marginal rate, usually applied to individual or corporate income. A flat tax falls under proportional tax as they allow certain deductions.

Fair Tax: The FairTax is a tax reform proposal that would replace all federal income taxes (including the alternative minimum tax, corporate income taxes, and capital gains taxes), payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes), gift taxes, and estate taxes with a single broad national consumption tax on retail sales. The Fair Tax Act would apply a tax, once, at the point of purchase on all new goods and services for personal consumption.

So, Flat Tax allows wealthier individuals to take advantage of tax laws that lower income people don't qualify for. (Compare Warren Buffet and his Secretary)

Progressive Tax takes more from each dollar as an individual makes more. The hard working '80 hour a week guy that wants to get his family out of the subsidized housing in the 'hood' pays more in tax of each dollar than the guy who only wants to work 40 hours a week, even though they make the same hourly pay.

The Fair Tax taxes the 40 and 80 hour a week and the Millionaires and Billionaires the same amount on each dollar they spend on a new item.

Now, since the lower income people tend to purchase used vehicles, buy clothing from GoodWill stores, go to flea markets and yard sales, buy used homes, they aren't paying tax on those items under the Fair Tax proposal. The ones who purchase jewelry, new clothing, new homes, cars, boats, aircraft and the like are paying the consumption tax.

This certainly removes some of the taxes that are currently heaped on the backs of the poor, underprivileged, disadvantaged or whatever label you'd like to put on them.

Which is more equitable in your eyes?

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: And don't forget there is a significant group of people that believe the right vs. left and republican vs. democrat are complete false dichotomies.

Yup, it's like choosing what gang you want to get jacked by.
Crips or Bloods, Priest or Police, you're still getting jacked.

And there probably ain't no way out, either.
After all, how much freedom is really freedom, and how little slavery does it take to make a slave?

quote Originally posted by ray b: i favor progressive tax rates those with the most pay the most I doNOT favor regressive taxes that take from those with the least the most like flat or sales taxes

Here's a story someone once told me that details the inevitable flaw with that school of thought. Imagine you have $20 in your pocket and you and three of your friends go to get lunch. Each of you gets the same meal that costs $5. Your friends realize that you have $20 and each of them only have $5 for lunch. Because you have more money than they do, they decide that it's only fair that you pay for all of their lunches. After all, you have $20 and they only have $5. So you're in a far better position to pay for lunch than they are. Being their friend, you go along with this until one day you have nothing left. But each day, your friends brought their $5 to pay for their lunches. So now you have nothing and they still have what they had in the name of "fairness." To quote the late Margaret Thatcher, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Tax everyone who has anything until they have nothing and eventually you run out of people to tax. France learned the hard way that if you overtax the so-called rich, they take their money as well as the companies they have and jobs those companies provide, and go elsewhere. Then, instead of revenue from the taxes you had before, you're left with a lot of unemployed people. Some people just fail to understand that the purpose of a business is NOT to create jobs. It's to provide a product or service to make the owner(s) a profit so that they can enjoy living the American dream of success. But to some people, that's just eeeeeee-vil.

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Whade' "Darkwing" Duck
Fieroless (11/18/12)

'' It's to provide a product or service to make the owner(s) a profit ''

fine until the owner decides he will make more profits with illegal workers in a unsafe sweatshop
in a unlicensed non code built building in an area it is not zoned for

or moves to china

civilization demands certain things from citizens

government is necessary to limit your owner from some act that may increase his profits
at the expense of the community's health and welfare

or we wind up living in haiti an good example of limited government in action

quote Originally posted by Formula88:

How true. It's just absurd really.

quote Originally posted by fierofool: Then you don't think that every person should pay the same tax on each dollar they have? From WikiPedia: A flat tax (short for flat tax rate) is a tax system with a constant marginal rate, usually applied to individual or corporate income. A flat tax falls under proportional tax as they allow certain deductions. Progressive Tax: A flat tax (short for flat tax rate) is a tax system with a constant marginal rate, usually applied to individual or corporate income. A flat tax falls under proportional tax as they allow certain deductions. Fair Tax: The FairTax is a tax reform proposal that would replace all federal income taxes (including the alternative minimum tax, corporate income taxes, and capital gains taxes), payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes), gift taxes, and estate taxes with a single broad national consumption tax on retail sales. The Fair Tax Act would apply a tax, once, at the point of purchase on all new goods and services for personal consumption. So, Flat Tax allows wealthier individuals to take advantage of tax laws that lower income people don't qualify for. (Compare Warren Buffet and his Secretary) Progressive Tax takes more from each dollar as an individual makes more. The hard working '80 hour a week guy that wants to get his family out of the subsidized housing in the 'hood' pays more in tax of each dollar than the guy who only wants to work 40 hours a week, even though they make the same hourly pay. The Fair Tax taxes the 40 and 80 hour a week and the Millionaires and Billionaires the same amount on each dollar they spend on a new item. Now, since the lower income people tend to purchase used vehicles, buy clothing from GoodWill stores, go to flea markets and yard sales, buy used homes, they aren't paying tax on those items under the Fair Tax proposal. The ones who purchase jewelry, new clothing, new homes, cars, boats, aircraft and the like are paying the consumption tax. This certainly removes some of the taxes that are currently heaped on the backs of the poor, underprivileged, disadvantaged or whatever label you'd like to put on them. Which is more equitable in your eyes?

total dogma BS

if a laborer works 80 hours he makes less then a skilled trades man at 40
or a contractor who has others do the work while he ''works'' maybe 20 hours but makes many times the others earnings

any flat tax is unfair by nature
it takes the most from those who have the least
and the least from those who have the most
that I call unfair and it ain't flat ether

Didn't we just have this 'debate' a week or so ago?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/101001.html

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Drive safely!

quote Originally posted by ray b: fine until the owner decides he will make more profits with illegal workers in a unsafe sweatshop in a unlicensed non code built building in an area it is not zoned for

There are laws in place to guard against such actions. But little good they do if they're not enforced. So the typical answer is, instead of enforcing the laws on the books, make new laws. You cannot legislate morality into someone. But you appear to be making the assumption that all businesses are corrupt. In my opinion, the ones who are corrupt ruin it for the ones who're playing by the rules. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's like people thinking, after seeing a story about a plane crash, that all planes are unsafe. That ONE plane that crashed is but one of the thousands in the air that day. But that doesn't make news. The one that crashed did. So goes the one business that abuses it's workers gets the press coverage while hundreds more play by the rules. But because of the actions of the one business and the people who are more than willing to believe that those actions are typical for all businesses, the good ones get more rules, more regulations, and less able to actually conduct business. All the while the ones who are breaking the rules just continue to do so until their caught. Be wary of making broad, blanketing assumptions.

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Whade' "Darkwing" Duck
Fieroless (11/18/12)