I spent most of today putting them on. Most of that time was spent getting all of the old glue off of the contact surface. If you don't get it all, the window has a good chance of coming loose. That being said Jeremy let me use some 3M adhesive remover. It's supposed to work very well. But this is 19 yr old dried glue so it took a bit of effort.

Jetro - how do they look?

If you have old glue that is stuck on, 3m makes a really good erasing tool that attaches to a drill. It is a 5 inch round eraser that you put on the end of a drill and then power erase all the glue and adhesive with. I was amazed when I used it before and it did not effect the paint even in the slightest and quickly removed all the glue. It would proably take 2-3 minutes to completely remove both sides and costs about 6-7 dollars at the local autozone etc. It works by attaching the eraser to the glue and then effectively spins it off.

tim

quote Originally posted by tharvey: If you have old glue that is stuck on, 3m makes a really good erasing tool that attaches to a drill........ It would proably take 2-3 minutes to completely remove both sides and costs about 6-7 dollars at the local autozone etc. It works by attaching the eraser to the glue and then effectively spins it off. tim

Tim,
It is information like that, and guys like you that makes this Forum such a great place. Thanks for sharing that information. Sure makes the job easier!!! Bill

------------------
88 GT 5 Speed - Black
88 GT Auto - Red 4.9 engine swap in progress
88 GT Auto - Yellow
88 GT Auto - White
87 Coupe 4cyl - 5Speed - Maroon - For Sale
86 GT Auto - Black - For Sale - No Title
86 GT Auto - White- Longpre Edition
86 SE V6 5sp converted to GT - Silver - For Sale
62 Vette
62 Impala - Anniversary Gold
95 Vette - Auto-White-41,000 miles-For Sale

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: Jetro - how do they look?

They look great. Lori is going to have to post pictures of them for me. Right now I'm in TN. and the car is still in AL.
On the down side it looks like I'll have to get a paint job to match the new windows.

quote Originally posted by JetroGT: They look great.

I could not agree more. Mine look as good if not better than the ones that came on it from the factory new, and thanks to the tip Tim shared with us, the installation was not as difficult as I had anticipated. Thanks again Ms Lori for providing the Fiero community with another GREAT product.

quote Originally posted by JetroGT: They look great. Lori is going to have to post pictures of them for me. Right now I'm in TN. and the car is still in AL. On the down side it looks like I'll have to get a paint job to match the new windows.

I guess that is why after 27 days I got absolute junk in the mail because you took the good ones to the swap meet to sell. I tried to informally work this out but it is not just myself who received the junk/garbage windows but other who have sent you pm for fear that you have had our money for 4 weeks and have been using it to fund your development. I will post further e-mails from her whereby she doesn't even have the funds to pay to replace for the windows that are garbage and been spray painted. When I had the nerve to demand either my money or replacement windows I was told I was a whinner and she even sent me a crying cat picture.

She is funding this project from presales which is against the law. She wanted me to repack the windows and bring them back to the post office claimind that I did not open them and refuse shipping. Rather impossible if not completely illegal to do especailly when you must sign for them when you receive them and the bar code is scanned. This is also postal fraud. When I sent her the usps investigators opinion she replied that is a pile of crap.

I am out $247.00 and have hand painted windows that come pre-scratched and even the dot matrix is completely painted over on one side. As for the delay being the tape she sent garbage windows half applied the tape then sprayed over them.

Her excuse is that someone else did them, and somebody else took them from the trash to send me and someone else did this and that. It really does not matter as I placed an order with her and entered into a legal binding contract. She then used the usps to legally send garbage windows through the us postal service across many state lines.

When asked to rectify it, she replied that it would be done in a couple days after she resolved her supplier problems and then after the next run. She then replied that she has to pay for the windows and that she has no money at this time unless I want her to pay it personally out of her own money.

Do not be fooled by the one picture from the swap meet, I have something that I would toss in the garbage, and some of the things I cannot even understand why it is being done.

$247.00 is a lot of money to me, 4 people equals a thousand, 8 is 2 thousand and so on. I only see one happy customer.

I will post exact details tomorrow, along with my pictures

tim

quote Originally posted by tharvey: I guess that is why after 27 days I got absolute junk in the mail because you took the good ones to the swap meet to sell. I tried to informally work this out but it is not just myself who received the junk/garbage windows but other who have sent you pm for fear that you have had our money for 4 weeks and have been using it to fund your development. I will post further e-mails from her whereby she doesn't even have the funds to pay to replace for the windows that are garbage and been spray painted. When I had the nerve to demand either my money or replacement windows I was told I was a whinner and she even sent me a crying cat picture. She is funding this project from presales which is against the law. She wanted me to repack the windows and bring them back to the post office claimind that I did not open them and refuse shipping. Rather impossible if not completely illegal to do especailly when you must sign for them when you receive them and the bar code is scanned. This is also postal fraud. When I sent her the usps investigators opinion she replied that is a pile of crap. I am out $247.00 and have hand painted windows that come pre-scratched and even the dot matrix is completely painted over on one side. As for the delay being the tape she sent garbage windows half applied the tape then sprayed over them. Her excuse is that someone else did them, and somebody else took them from the trash to send me and someone else did this and that. It really does not matter as I placed an order with her and entered into a legal binding contract. She then used the usps to legally send garbage windows through the us postal service across many state lines. When asked to rectify it, she replied that it would be done in a couple days after she resolved her supplier problems and then after the next run. She then replied that she has to pay for the windows and that she has no money at this time unless I want her to pay it personally out of her own money. Do not be fooled by the one picture from the swap meet, I have something that I would toss in the garbage, and some of the things I cannot even understand why it is being done. $247.00 is a lot of money to me, 4 people equals a thousand, 8 is 2 thousand and so on. I only see one happy customer. I will post exact details tomorrow, along with my pictures tim

the battery box i got from her was very poorly made also !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i tried to not say anything hoping it was just mine . I GOT THE SAME GREAT CUSTOMERS SERVICE THAT IS WHY I WILL NEVER GIVE HER A DIME OF MY MONEY AGAIN
just my 2 cents

quote Originally posted by tharvey: I guess that is why after 27 days I got absolute junk in the mail because you took the good ones to the swap meet to sell. I tried to informally work this out but it is not just myself who received the junk/garbage windows but other who have sent you pm for fear that you have had our money for 4 weeks and have been using it to fund your development. I will post further e-mails from her whereby she doesn't even have the funds to pay to replace for the windows that are garbage and been spray painted. When I had the nerve to demand either my money or replacement windows I was told I was a whinner and she even sent me a crying cat picture. She is funding this project from presales which is against the law. She wanted me to repack the windows and bring them back to the post office claimind that I did not open them and refuse shipping. Rather impossible if not completely illegal to do especailly when you must sign for them when you receive them and the bar code is scanned. This is also postal fraud. When I sent her the usps investigators opinion she replied that is a pile of crap. I am out $247.00 and have hand painted windows that come pre-scratched and even the dot matrix is completely painted over on one side. As for the delay being the tape she sent garbage windows half applied the tape then sprayed over them. Her excuse is that someone else did them, and somebody else took them from the trash to send me and someone else did this and that. It really does not matter as I placed an order with her and entered into a legal binding contract. She then used the usps to legally send garbage windows through the us postal service across many state lines. When asked to rectify it, she replied that it would be done in a couple days after she resolved her supplier problems and then after the next run. She then replied that she has to pay for the windows and that she has no money at this time unless I want her to pay it personally out of her own money. Do not be fooled by the one picture from the swap meet, I have something that I would toss in the garbage, and some of the things I cannot even understand why it is being done. $247.00 is a lot of money to me, 4 people equals a thousand, 8 is 2 thousand and so on. I only see one happy customer. I will post exact details tomorrow, along with my pictures tim

Well, since Tim has decided to do this, I have to tell my side here also. Tim did receive a bad set of windows, there were a few sent out without my knowledge and I am working to resolve this with everyone. Everyone but Tim agreed to work with me to resolve this issue, and it will be resolved for everyone. I explained to Tim I need him to return the ones he has so I can get replacements for him, he refused, I also told him it would be a few days before I could get some new ones made, but he demanded I send him something I don't have yet, I can't. So this is his way of handling this. I was deceived as well as the people that received the bad windows and I have to resolve this issue with him also, Tim said that wasn't his problem, and I agree, I was only explaining the problem with him. Tim only seems concerned about making this matter worse than what it is. I know he received a misprinted set which shouldn't have happened and I trusted someone else to pack them because I had my hands full at work lately, I have apologized to everyone and I will resolve this with everyone. Tim has sent me several pictures of the windows he received and every picture shows more damage than the previous picture, so he is adding more and more damage with every one, they weren't that damaged when they were shipped as I have some of the misprinted ones also that came from the same batch and I know what they look like. I have been nicer to him than he has been to me, but I had to finally tell him I will not argue with him any more and this is what I get. This is the picture I sent him of the cat he claims is crying, so now you can see how he perceives things

Well I recieved my QT windows the other day and after a close inspection,I guess I got about what Tim got.I have sent them back as of Saterday(04-29-06) I HOPE I can get GOOD replacements! The tape was all messed up and they had painted over the dot matrix at the end near the front of the window. I inserted a note telling them to just send the windows with just the GT logo and the dot matrix AND nougthing else. I can finish them up the way I want.
OK LORI?

quote Originally posted by 87V6GT: Well I recieved my QT windows the other day and after a close inspection,I guess I got about what Tim got.I have sent them back as of Saterday(04-29-06) I HOPE I can get GOOD replacements! The tape was all messed up and they had painted over the dot matrix at the end near the front of the window. I inserted a note telling them to just send the windows with just the GT logo and the dot matrix AND nougthing else. I can finish them up the way I want. OK LORI?

Yes. that will be ok. And again I apologize to everyone that received these

lets look at the facts, A group of people paid 247.00 for these windows, at least 3 or more people got crap, rather then just replace them with the ones she has in stock she decided it was better to sell the good ones at the swap meet and make everything else wait further even though they have patiently waited 4 weeks. Lets not mention that she has had our money for this 4 weeks.

Now let look at the logs.

April 3rd, she places this post that the gt windows are ready and now taking orders.
does ready not mean ready
now a bunch of people immediately pay to be first in line to receive the windows
about a week no answer on the shipping when someone has the nerve to question her on where are the windows she replies
I posted that it is a 2 week period between ordering and delivery
People are then forced to wait because she dictates the circumstances and she has our money.
She never posted here there was a 2 week waiting period for delivery
She actually posted on another thread that she would expect it to be 2 weeks from ordering to delivery
Anyone seeing this thread would not know that unless they read all her threads and she has sold and abandoned a lot of items in her past.
Well the 2 weeks came and went and then she sends an e-mail to a group of us whom I persume is the people whom have already paid for our windows.
The e-mail states she does not have the tape and does not want to send them out without the correct tape, as she does not want to ship the panels until they are absolutely perfect.
In this e-mail she states that the tape will be in monday
Monday comes and goes, no answer until the following thursday, she advises us that the tape came in and the panels are ready to go
Thursday friday and saturday come and go and no panels shipped out and they finally getted shipped out sometime the following monday.
The panels are then received by some the evening of the 27th some the 28th and some the 29th.
All in all 26 days for mine to be received, not the 14 day start to finish as she later changed to

Now I open the package and immediately see what crap they are, they are coivered in scratches and scuffs, the tape is half off, someone has spraypainted the rear oblittering the dot matrix on one side completely and even the black is two toned.

Now I am about 30 miles from home the panels came in a big box which I could not put in the trunk as it was too big as I carry tools in a bag, towels and a shipping mat in the event of a break down in which to lie on.

I unpackaged the panels with their saran tape stuck to them, I wrapped them in two clean pink towels I always carry in event of problems on the road etc and I throw the wrappings in the garbage. I then drive home to further expect them.

When I got home I was even more upset, I take digital time/stamped pictures at 8 meg resolution and then send her an immediate p-mail which is as follows

MsLoriFiero
Member
04-28-2006 05:49 PM

I received these windows finally after 25 days of waiting.
Your posting clearly states that they were ready, and ready to ship.

It must have taken so long as I got absolutely Junk and I mean Crap.

Now lets investigate and see what went wrong here.

The delay was caused by you waiting for the tape, however mine have been sprayed with black paint on the rear to cover up the mistakes, and this spray paint is directly over the red tape. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the tape went down before the paint went on.

And why did we paint to cover the dot matrix to give the appearance it is a straight line and cover up the inital mistake.

why didn't we paint to cover up the numerous places where the backing did not take, and there are clear spots where it is supposed to be black.

why did we start with used panels, I have more scratches then my original panels do, I even have a large scratch through the center portion of the clear.

As for the tape we must have only had 3 seconds to apply as the red release barrier has come off on the end and curled over, and the suran wrap has stuck to it.

It is not one mistake but numerous the back and front are scratched the rear is covered with some type of spray overcoat that someone must haved been clear coating their vehicle while you let them sit there.

These are absolutely junk, the mold might be the right side by absolutely everything else is terrible from front ot back.

I was always wondering why you never even took the time to answer my e-mails, and just placed me on ignore.

You used the usps to transport these items which are far less then represented or displayed. This it itself constitutes fraud.

I have had three people look at them and they thought I got them at a garage sale and could not believe they were supposed to be new.

I will await my refund before shipping them back to you collect.

Not the slightest bit a happy customer

Tim Harvey


She eceived this p-mail and did not reply

further posting to update

My, I see you have been busy, but you seem to have forgotten a couple of the emails you sent to me, so let me help, I wouldn't want anyone to miss anything here, I want everyone to know that I got all of these emails within a 2 day period and since I don't have access to a computer at work, I can only check my emails once I get home in the evenings

4/28/2006 10:57:49 PM Central Daylight Time
Under the law it is fraud to knowingly ship, sell or otherwise misrepresent for sale anything and use the postal service as a means of conducting this sale by transporting or disposing of any product. This law however only applies to the usps and is not enforceable if you have used fed-x, ups etc. This also applies to payments made by the mail service for a product which is or was never received. If you remember in the movie “the firm” the lawyers had committed fraud by overcharging and sending there bills out by mail and not fax or other means. It was not the overcharging which was the problem it was the use of the usps to convey their fraudulently exaggerated invoices to their respective clients. Regardless, this is also open for explaination, which I believe you have met the burden of proof on.



Thus I bought what I felt was brand new near perfect 99% original windows. What in fact I received was in fact the worst pieces of fiero products that I have ever seen, the black is two tone, the tape is off they are full of scratches they have been painted and re-painted the back of one was lying around somewhere, where unknown person was painting. I patiently awaited for these and was in fact the second person to pay for them. I awaited 25 days after payment and this is what I received.



I have e-mailed you some 4-5 times requesting an update on the shipping status of the windows and never received a reply. Today I went down after contacting the post office to pick them up and this is what I found. I have now shown them to 5 different people including one of the major suppliers in the Northwest and to quote his comment



“Wholey CRAP!



With emphasis on the *crap*. Cuz that's what those are!!!!



These are by far the worst copies that I have seen. I presently have the fierewarehouse ones, and was looking for better ones. The person even sprayed the matrix on the side for what reason I do not understand. There is white paint, two tone blacks, clear spots in the black and even a scratch along the middle.



Needless to say it appears that someone is attempting to sabotage your partnership or business. These panels in my opinion if not garbage were purposely sent for a specific purpose, even my wife looked at them and could not believe the condition.



However I am sure that you know this already as I understand there are 3 more persons with the same condition panels.



I had and still do have the opportunity to buy original panels in the box for considerable more money, however if you can not guarantee me a perfect set without scratches flaws, bubbles then I would demand my money be returned immediately.



However if you can supply me a set as described and displayed without these hideous flaws then I would accept these.



I have been and still am a Policeman for 30 plus years and I cannot defraud the usps. It is in fact a federal offence to make a false claim or statement to them when shipping or receiving a parcel from the usps. I can simply not repack them up and re-seal the package and tell them that I did not open the parcel and request it be returned to sender. I have dealt with this post office for decades and I am well known by name and face and I will not ethically do anything to deceive them in any way.



What I propose to do is that you personally inspect and send me a new non defective set to the same address, along with a return pre-paid stamp to return these to yourself. As they are virtually worthless I would suggest the return set be for parcel post with tracking. You paid 16.90 to send them priority with tracking, return should be about 7-8.00 with tracking. Upon receipt of the items I will inspect and return the defective items to you, in the provided box and shipping label.



I was extremely dis-pleased upon receipt of the units I received, and upon listening to your explanation, which is plausible, it makes sense and I can understand on how you got into this predicaments.



If this is fine with you I ask that you forward me the tracking number for the new windows ASAP.



If you are unhappy with then I will list the other alternatives in a further e-mail. I would like to point out to you that I have trusted you on faith for the last 25 days and from your e-mail there seem to be some lack of faith on your part. I did not post the pictures and attempted to contact other purchasers before going any further



Respectfully submitted.





Tim







-----Original Message-----
From: LoriAnn099@aol.com [mailto:LoriAnn099@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:17 PM
To: tharvey@dccnet.com
Subject: Re: GT windows



Tim, I have looked over the pictures you sent me, and I fully agree with you, I am as upset about this as you are. I apologize to you for this. I want to try and explain, although I know it may not make things any better. I do not make these myself, I have to hire people to do the molding and graphics for me. I have to work full-time somewhere else and lately have had to put in extra hours and effort there. I have a partner whom I have tried to keep unnamed. He had some problems getting everything correct and that was part of the holdup along with waiting on the correct tape. He assured me that he had gotten all of the problems resolved, and even showed him some perfect windows which I approved, and asked him to go ahead and pack them up as I had to spend most of my time at work. What I didn't know was he took some of the windows I thought he had thrown away and tried to patch them, because he was short on having enough perfect windows to ship to everyone and was trying to recover some of the money he had invested in making these. I was totally unaware of this, and I am just as unhappy as you are about it, and I am just now finding out about it as I trusted him and did not open the boxes to inspect them. We have been having a very heated discussion about it all day today. I will resolve this matter with you and make you as happy as possible, but I cannot get my money back without having the windows back first. What I would like for you to do is get these back to the post office and tell them you refuse to accept them, they will then return them to me without another charge, and then I will be able to refund your money, I have to get mine back also. As far as you saying that because I shipped them with the USPS was fraud, I would like to know how you came up with that one? I will assume it was because you are upset. No where did I ever mention that I will ship them any other way, I ship almost everything with the USPS



Lori
4/29/2006 1:19:36 PM Central Daylight Time
foxgapfiero
Member

Posts: 1588
From: Bangor PA USA
Registered: Sep 2001

Rate this member



04-28-2006 07:56 PM




Saw these today at the swap meet. I have to raise a few more bucks and a set will go home with me.








I would contact Lori....I had similar issues with mine....apparently, she entrusted someone else to QA and package them...she is quite upset about it....and has given a new set to a friend of mine at the swap meet who assures me that they look quite nice...the one thing I cannot understand is why the black was painted AFTER the tape was put on...and by what kind of numbskull...I think she really needs to make good on these things or else she is going to lose her butt on them....I sent these pics to her...

----- Original Message -----
Chris, I am very sorry, I do not know how a set of these windows got shipped out looking like this and I will replace them ASAP. Please have your friend find me at the swap meet, I will be working in the kitchen. What is his/her name? I have been very busy getting everything ready for the swap meet and had to trust my partner to do the QA inspections, I WILL inspect every window myself from now on to be sure this does not happen again. I will only sell quality products and I do not want/need a reputation of any less. Please return the set you have, you should be able to take them to the post office and tell them you refuse to accept them and send them back for free, if not I will reimburse you for the postage.

Lori
---- Original Message -----
Lori-









Tim, I am trying to resolve this issue with you honestly, and I DID NOT knowingly send you a bad set of windows and I have apologized to you for the one you received. There is no need for threats here. And speaking of ethics, I think it is unethical of you to start talking around to my other customers and to the people YOU told me you have without first giving me the opportunity to resolve this issue, which I am honestly trying to do. I will get you a nice set of them made, it may take a few days as there are issues with my supplier I will have to resolve also, but I guarantee, I will resolve it. I don't know how else to explain it.



Lori









I guess I have to wait until you have sold what you have? As you can see, other people can see you at the swap meet for replacement, and other persons have seen perfect ones at the swap meet which you are at.





I was number 2 on the list and I have now waited 27 days and I am on the back burner because you have my money already, I mean really what is the hurry to take care of me first.



As for not, knowingly, maybe you should read your own postings. “I” “I shipped them” etc.etc.



As for threats I have not threatened anything. You are asking me and others to commit postal fraud by attempting to re-wrap the items and submit them to the post office as refused in attempts to save yourself some money for return postage, You want us to commit the offence all for a couple of bucks, you are also committing the offence by advising and condoning persons to do such. If this you consider this is a threat then I am sorry you are the one at fault.







Subject

---------------------------------------------------------------

How do I report a (complaint removed)





Discussion Thread

---------------------------------------------------------------

Response (Rachel A)

Tim,



Thank you for visiting our website. I understand you are aware of an individual who is misusing the services offered by the United States Postal Service (USPS).



If you suspect any sort of fraudulent activity that involves the U.S. Mail (mail fraud is any activity that uses the United States Postal Service® with the intent to cheat the United States Postal Service or its customers) then you should report it to your local Postal Inspection Service. You may contact the Seattle Postal Inspectors at 206-442-6300.



If I can offer any further assistance, feel free to contact me. Thank you for using the United States Postal Service.



Rachel



Customer (tim harvey)



As for your comment on “ethics” don’t even go there, I have done nothing wrong, I received junk and used the list which you yourself supplied to me in an e-mail to check with other recipients to see if they also received the same product before taking any further action. My e-mails went un-answered it was only when another client mentioned his same problem and mentioned how displeased I was that I suddenly got a reply. You have never replied to a single e-mail of mine after you got my money on the 3rd. Below is what I sent to people in regards to my reasoning.





This is how I received my panels, did anyone else have any problems, or is mine a unique problem.



I am awaiting to post a reply and start a new thread in the mall but want to verify that my problem is not unique first, in which case I will simply get my money refunded and buy a set from the other sellers.



I am extremely upset as three persons whom I showed them to all assumed they were used and had been sitting around for several years. One person assumed I got them from a garage sale.



Please reply asap as I would rather others did not have to endure the 26 days of waiting to only get these



Tim Harvey







Regardless, I was the second to support you with an actual payment, hundreds have commented on how they want several sets, but I doubt that you have received hundreds of orders. I now hear that people can see you at the swap meet, others have seen perfect products that they could purchase at that very time from you and for me I will have to wait until you first resolve your manufacturing problems and then wait for a pair to be produced and another 3-4 days for shipping. Not exactly fair in anybody’s opinion







Tim

I guess the pictures speak for themselves, can not get anymore clear.

I also purchased a set of these windows. I have no complaints.
Obviously (as Lori stated) you were shipped windows that were not meant to be shipped out at all. It was a mistake.
She also told me that several other people received misprinted or otherwise "bad" windows.
This is a new product. They are attempting to sort out bugs, and ramp up production. Mistakes happen (obviously.)
I can't speak to the delays, as I sent my money at probably the same time you did, but was not in a hurry for them. It was not an issue for me.

Regardless, she said she would make good on them.
Regarding that subject... There may be a few vendors out there who will ship replacement products without having received the original defective ones back, first. But not all will (or even can, for that matter.)

The Federal Trade commission regulates on how small buisness can operate, i.e. a person setting up, and selling products simular to these.

Of paticular note, is the shipment and time period where a persons takes money and promises a 2 week or 14 day delivery and fails to completewithin the specified time period.

The rule is quite clear in that they must obtain permission from the respective purchasers or immediately refund their monies, if on the 14th day they have not delivered the item as stipulated to the USPS for delivery.

There is not an opt out clause in that the sellor cannot simply state "it will be delayed for xx reasons" it clearly states the seller must obtain consent from the purchaser or immediately refund the monies, if they are not able to, or have not received a reply of agreement from the respective buyer to the delay.

As there are a lot of people selling on a regular basis it covers phone, mail and internet soliciting. The clock starts once the money has been transmitted and does not stop until the product is submitted to the USPS for delivery.

Travel time is not counted.

Thus in this case where 2 weeks from order to delivery is stated, delivery to the USPS must be within 14 days which are counted as first and last day.

The only exception is if the person agrees in writing of which e-mail is acceptable to waive the delay in which case the 30 day rule applies.

This 30 day rule applies where there is absolutely no promise or indication of expected delivery. An example of this would be purchasing a vehicle on line and that there is no definite date as to when the vehicle will be produced. If a 48 hour shipment time is indicated the article must be delivered or picked up by the USPS within 48 hours. If a two week delivery from time of order to delivery is stipulated then the item must be delivered to the USPS within the two week period.

As this is such a significant offence, the penality is quite high and is, $11,000 us dollars per offence.

here attached is the link for in-depth explaination and complaint filing procedure.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.htm

From the smiley in the header of your post, I'm taking it that you are getting a great deal of amusement out of busting the chops of someone who has made a mistake.

She said that she would make good on the transaction.

What do you want? Blood?

It's not like she is running a huge business. She's trying to come up with a product that people have been clamoring for, for quite a while. She's had some screwups and mis-steps getting things off the ground.

Damn... It's a wonder that anybody bothers to go into the Fiero parts business.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Regardless, she said she would make good on them. Regarding that subject... There may be a few vendors out there who will ship replacement products without having received the original defective ones back, first. But not all will (or even can, for that matter.)

This is the part I don't understand in these disputes--and I need to say up front this one involves me in no way whatsoever. Didn't buy any-don't own a GT. I know neither of these parties, and take no side whatsoever--But just generally speaking regarding buying & selling on PFF--explain this to me:

1. Seller has a product in their possession for sale.
2. Buyer has their own money in their possession and wants the product.
3. Buyer sends the money to the seller. Until the product arrives, all the buyer has is a promise that he/she will recieve that something for the $$ he/she just sent to the buyer-may be days-may be weeks-all depends on a number of factors, but he/she is stil in possession of just a promise, while the seller has the buyer's money.. In other words-the buyer has to rely on trust, integrity, and honesty.
4. The seller recieves the payment. Now, (hopefully for a very short period of time) the seller is in possession of both the product and the buyer's money. This is when the trust and honesty part really comes into play.
5. The seller ships out the product. Hopefully, within a reasonable amt of time, it arrives at the buyer's home. All is well and good if the product is acceptale. If not, the seller once again asks the buyer to trust them-
"send it back, and we will make it right."
If the buyer does as instructed-he/she is once again left with nothing but a promise until the seller makes good on yhat promise.

WHY? Why should the seller always be the one to be trusted? At no time is the seller out anything. The seller either has in their possesion the product, the buyer's money or both--never 'nothing'--yet the seller expects the buyer to be in possession of 'nothing' not once, but twice--if there is a problem. Once, when he/she originally sent the payment in advance-and again when he/she returned the product for replacement/refund.

Why can't the seller take on the trust part during at least 1/2 of the transaction? The buyer did his/her part already. Why can't the seller now say:
"A problem? Ok, it happens sometimes. I'll send you another. If it's good-send the bad one back. If the replacement is still not to your satisfaction-send both back and I'll refund your $$ once they arrive here."
Or-even better,
"Hey. Sorry it happened. I'll send you a refund immediately. When it gets to you-send the unsatisfactory product back to us".

Why is the onus always on the buyer to do all the trusting? Fact is, since there is almost always a profit margin built in, the buyer is always out MORE than the seller. The payment the seller recieves is almost always more than the cost of the product.

Remeber-I said PFF-not ebay or anywhere else on the internet.
Good luck to both of the parties here.

Rather interesting that because I post a happy face you make this assumption. I am out 247.00 and you have the nerve to make this assumption just because you have a nice set of panels. Are you freaking crazy and think I have nothing better to do, my wife skipped he coffee breaks for months to buy these for easter and I have absolute crap. I could read into your posting and make assumptions especially on previous comments made by her "that these are yours, I didn't get ones like that , heck I never even got a reply to an of my e-mails for the first 3 weeks. Get a life, really there are a lot of people who are out a lot of money and received items not even close to the quality of yours.

Yea i had a small problem... but i thanked Lori for taking up such a big (needed) endevor that would help the hobby and now all we see is the whiners comming out of the Fiero abis....I also told her... have the replaced set be up to snuff ,i'll take another set...She apoligized and woukd handle the problem... again thanks for the up'comming great product... Oh by the way i did buy from 3 other vendors and i will publicly state theirs WAS JUNK... I just ripped them OFF because i couldnt stand how cheapened i made my GT. I went out and bought the NOS and that was great ... til it had 5 hours of FL sun then they started to split... so this is My last resort... ill then sell the car and buy a HONDA!!! Lori the whole hobby of collecting Fiero-GTs is in your hands.. and i believe she (you) can "Save the FIERO" The name of my Club...thanks for all the effort.....

So what I understand here is that you are another person whom received a defective set. Did I understand she replaced them for you, how many defective sets went out.

I did not purchase from a unknown un-named partner, we all based these purchases under her reputation, and she is having other persons do the quality and control for her, heck if I had known that I would never have even contemplated a purchase.

As for other re-sellers the fierowarehouse is an excellent product, I hope you are not slagging him.

As for whinners rather crude and rude, I will not sit down and be a statistic, she has violated numerous laws of which we must all be governed by.

I have lost all faith and trust in her

quote Originally posted by tharvey: Rather interesting that because I post a happy face you make this assumption. I am out 247.00 and you have the nerve to make this assumption just because you have a nice set of panels. Are you freaking crazy and think I have nothing better to do, my wife skipped he coffee breaks for months to buy these for easter and I have absolute crap. I could read into your posting and make assumptions especially on previous comments made by her "that these are yours, I didn't get ones like that , heck I never even got a reply to an of my e-mails for the first 3 weeks. Get a life, really there are a lot of people who are out a lot of money and received items not even close to the quality of yours.

You tell someone to get a life? Maybe you should, and not spend all of your time trying to trash other people. You act like I deliberately stole your money and ran away with it. I am not going anywhere, I have been a part of the Fiero community for a long time, and plan on being for a long time to come. I told you and everyone else I was sorry for this happening and would resolve it as quickly as possible, and you are the only one obsessed with destroying someone here. I think maybe you should sell your Fiero, because after postings this so people can see what type of person you are, no one is going to want to sell you anything for fear you will harasses them the way you are doing me.

Lori

quote Originally posted by maryjane: This is the part I don't understand in these disputes... But just generally speaking regarding buying & selling on PFF... Why should the seller always be the one to be trusted? At no time is the seller out anything.

Don, I don't think it's just PFF. I think it's the policy of a lot of places.

To address your statement about "at no time is the seller out anything".

The seller does have something to lose. His/her reputation.

I've met Lori. I've talked with her in person on several occasions. She has obviously gone to a lot of trouble to make these things happen. If I thought that she was in it to screw customers over, I wouldn't be here trying to defend her.
I also wouldn't have plunked down my hard-earned, when I still have a perfectly good set of windows on my car.

As for coming up with an immediate refund...
She is what I would consider a "small business" (if not a "tiny business"). Many small businesses run on a shoestring budget.
Tim can quote all the law that he wants. The fact of the matter is that real life isn't always done "by the book". Whatever book that may be.
All she can do is the best she can do. If she doesn't have the money for a refund, she can't just pull it out of her sleeve. (I don't know that this is the case. I said "if".)

As I said, she's gone to a lot of trouble to make these things happen. I'm certain that she'd like to keep producing them.
I also believe that she will rectify this situation as soon as she can.

There is a very simple solution return my money or send out a new set immediately.

4 weeks is way too long even the Federal trade commission agree with me, why do you think these laws were needed in the first place and there is a $11,000 offence per transaction

You are collecting pre sales to pay for old sales, your own admission is you have no available stock and you are not going to use your own money to pay for a set and send them to me. Heck you own the company or you claim to.

The above person hit it on the nail, when they commented on trust, which lasted 25 days. After that with the poorly supplied product the onus is now on you.

I have dealt with a lot of people on this forum, some have sent me screws free of charge, I have received headlights and other parts and advised to pay when I am happy with them, I even had my steering wheel refinished by a michigan man who called me 2 weeks afted I recedived the wheel back to insure I was happy with his work before he cashed the cheque.

I have also been scammed by forum members, and out money and product. I based each case on a case by case decision.

These are supposed to be the elite of windows, come on, you have been in the fiero community and you didn't even check the product, something to which you claim to be such an expert on. This is not the first enterprise on which you are involved in, and I am sure it will not be your last.

Surely as a buisness woman you know you had so many orders and you ordered so many units to send, This is basic invetory that we learn very young. If I ordered 10 sets and sold 8 then I have 2 left. If the garbage ones got sent out accidentally then you still have the good ones to fulfill all the orders. My invoice is dated april 3rd and indicates invoice #2 so I know you are keeping track of all your orders including shipping addresses etc.

My question was and still is where are all these excess units, or were they all sold at the swap meet.
Your reply was that you are having supplier problems, which will be resolved in a couple of days and that I will get one of the panels in the next run. If I wanted to wait this long why order immediately after all I never got any of the panels from the first run.

Use some common sense here, first in is first out, you have threatened me that the more I complain the longer this will take. Talk about a threat, under civil law the first order in is the first order to be fulfilled.

Imagine been the first or second in line for sold out concert tickets and waiting up all night to get a ticket. Now the person comes out and goes to the back of the line and gives the tickets to the last person who just showed up. This is what you have done, you even posted pictures on this, on the vehicle in this same thread, talk about adding insult to injury.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Don, I don't think it's just PFF. I think it's the policy of a lot of places. To address your statement about "at no time is the seller out anything". The seller does have something to lose. His/her reputation. I've met Lori. I've talked with her in person on several occasions. She has obviously gone to a lot of trouble to make these things happen. If I thought that she was in it to screw customers over, I wouldn't be here trying to defend her. I also wouldn't have plunked down my hard-earned, when I still have a perfectly good set of windows on my car. As for coming up with an immediate refund... She is what I would consider a "small business" (if not a "tiny business"). Many small businesses run on a shoestring budget. Tim can quote all the law that he wants. The fact of the matter is that real life isn't always done "by the book". Whatever book that may be. All she can do is the best she can do. If she doesn't have the money for a refund, she can't just pull it out of her sleeve. (I don't know that this is the case. I said "if".) As I said, she's gone to a lot of trouble to make these things happen. I'm certain that she'd like to keep producing them. I also believe that she will rectify this situation as soon as she can.

Raydar, I never said she was out to 'screw' anyone. I said "in general". "On PFF" And, that's exactly what I meant. In a dispute, at some point or another, someone has to bite the bullet and show some trust. Buyer or seller-doesn't matter which. The buyer has already done so once in almost every transacttion. Why can't the seller do so when it comes up the 2nd time? It makes the customer happy--and it makes the seller happy. Keeps both party's reputations spotless-even admirable.

I can understand it in the ebay world etc, where no one really knows anyone, but tell me when was the last time you saw a complaint about a buyer on PFF? They are very rare.
I do understand it's the way things are done, but it doesn't seem right all the time. Trust is a 2 way street.

Sorry, Don.
I didn't mean to imply that you said anything of the sort. (That was left over sentiment from some of the other posts.)
My point to you was that, frequently, vendors (NOT just Fiero vendors) insist that the original defective product be returned before they will issue a credit/refund/replacent. This is often because the person who did the manufacturing needs to have it in their hands to verify a problem. Sometimes, it's just... policy. (I personally know another sail panel vendor who has gotten screwed by not enforcing such a policy. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.)

All of that aside... Based on the pictures, there obviously was a problem with Tim's windows. Lori has freely admitted as much.
I have stuck my neck out here to defend her. I trust that she will make this right, as soon as humanly possible.

Aside from the dispute happening at the moment, I am interested in a set of these and would like to see more pictures from anyone that can post them. I'd like to see some on the car showing the curves. My thanks go out to all that have posted a picture already. The things that I have been wondering about are getting answered with each new picture I see. I know these have to be better than a flat piece of plastic with paint on it. The flat aftermarket windows that have been produced in the past look a little out of place on the car.

I was wondering if the dot matrix should follow the entire inside border.

Thanks!

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Got Blue?

BlueGT

Tim, I have explained this to you many times now, I do not have a good set to send you at the moment, nor your money, I have apologized to you repeatedly and promised you that I will resolve this as soon as I can and I will. I in no way threaten you with the longer you complain the longer it will take. Let me explain this to you one last time. This is how it works, when you send me your money, I take it to the person that I had manufacture these for me, I keep a small portion of it for me, my portion was invested in having boxes made and bubble wrap, etc., to ship these in. At this time I am way in the hole. I asked you to return these as I need these to present them to the person that manufactured them so I can get a replacement set or a refund for you. I cannot do that until you return them. You say you are on a limited budget then you of all people should understand what I am saying as I too am on a limited budget. I know of no store anywhere that will give you a replacement or refund without have the defective product returned, it isn't any different here. One last time, I am sorry this happened, but we need to work together to get it resolved. sitting on the computer all day complaining isn't going to get it done any sooner. So I ask you again, please return these windows to me so I can get your refund and get this behind us.

Lori

Tim -

I am growing ill of your emails and selective information that you are posting on this post....we get the point. You are pissed!

You contacted me within what seemed to be minutes of recieving your panels at which time I asked you to lay low and resolve this in a rational manner. You have mentioned that you have discussed your issues with others and they had the same issues. I hope that I am not one that you are referring to in that statement. My panels had similar issues regarding the paint, but mine had none of the physical damage you claim to have receieved yours with. You mentioned that you would not include anyone's names here, but when you posted my name and Jack's name, you blew that one...AND....you pissed ME off!

Since being a member of this forum, I have never been party to, nor even read anything like your posts on this issue. Your approach is embarrasing and should be embarrassing to anyone in policing for "30 years." I also have never been quite so moved as to post such a derogatory message on the forum.

That beng said, I said in my replies to your PM's, I think you have completely over-reacted. You have presented this as an investigation right from the start from the level of documentation and nausiating tact that you have approached this with. I would suggest that if you would have worked with Lori from the start, you may be in a different place right now. If you have been involved in police work for 30 years, I dare say that it might be time for a retirement. You clearly have no concept of effort vs. reward and are showing symptoms of having been blessed with unlimited budgets to work with in the past. I can't imagine any industry that I have worked that would have allowed you to waste this much effort for such little reward. (I too have been around the law enforcement arena as well as the audit arena and have plenty of experience at this sort of thing, yet I still see no relavence of this experience to this issue). Aside from wasting valuable time, your tactics are bullish, infantile and reminicent of a time in which smacking someone around in the interview room was an official method of getting someone to give you what you want. For these reasons I ask that you discontinue contacting me, and posting up any information regarding my receipt of panels....in fact, since you seem to have planty of time on your hands, why not go back and edit your previous posts to remove any reference to my corroboration of your issue from your posts.

I have tried to be reasonable with you by providing some feedback in a constructive form, but you have not gotten the hint.....I hope this more direct path gets you to understand that your actions are out of line.

Boy,are some of us LONGGGGG winded,but the pics DO show just what I recieved. I'll just give Lori time to correct the misstake.Sh-t happeneds.

[This message has been edited by 87V6GT (edited 05-01-2006).]

I have issues with my order as well, but Lori has assured me it will be corrected with parts as promised, which I am comfortable with.

Being an Engineer, I fully understand that with first run parts there can be Quality Issues, on parts that find their way into the customers hands. I also understand that there is no way that Lori can 100% inspect all the parts that are being shipped, she has to rely on people she has contracted to deliver quality parts.

As said above, shi$ happens, doesn't matter what business you're in, it's just a matter of getting the problem corrected to the satisfaction of both parties, which can sometimes be difficult as seen above. One thing to keep in mind in the process, is not to rush things. Quality Issues do take some time to resolve, and can go much deeper than suppling just one person with a correct set of windows. Every complaint issue item has to be reviewed, and root caused back to why/how it happened, then steps defined to correct each defect, to establish "Process Controls", so this doesn't happen again. This all takes time, I don't want my re-placement order rushed, and I believe I'll be placing another order for my other GT.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-01-2006).]

I am one of those that recieved the wrong windows. Lori is working with me for a resolution. I didn't say anything earlier so as not to make things worse for her. Going public seemed a needless exercise in chest thumping.
I am not a sh*thouse lawyer, nor do I play one on TV

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'87 GT, daily driver
'78 Toyota longbed, parts runner
'84 F250 Xcab, BIG parts runner
'87 30' Kit Classic TT, living in it.

I have been following this thread from the start - and have a little insight into the whole "car-based" micro business thing. I have not done anything Fiero related, but for 6 years have produced calendars for varying organizations from Buick Clubs to Turbo Buick based web-boards.

It seems to to me there is an awful lot of stuff that doesnt add up.
On one hand, people are discussing the fact that this is such a small business with a small budget - yet it is too large to notice some garbage product going out? If this is such small numbers and she subbed out the manufacture - what is left for her to do but take inventory, handle orders, and ship product?

Each year I produce several hundred calendars for all different groups - I have made mistakes, I admit. One year, the first 10 went out without holes pinched in them to hang them. Obviosly a hole-punch isnt that big of a deal - but you can bet it never happened again!

Another conflict - she has such small numbers to deal with (in terms of orders) - yet there seems to be a large percentage of the first orders out that are defective. I cannot see how that can't be on purpose. One or two out of 20 I could see - it looks like 5 or 6 out of ten?

Those of you playing the "we wouldnt have fieros withouyt vendors like this" card can drop it too. Lori is doing it to make a profit of some sort. It may be small, but there is money there, I guarantee it. Now, if she has personal issues draining too much of that money, well, then there is the problem. Because to me, if I print 10 calendars and sell 10 calendars (which means I dont have any in inventory) that means I should not be short any money, correct??? Each year I have to outlay about $1500 of MY OWN MONEY to purchase toner, printer supplies, paper, envelopes, postage, binding combs, etc. I dont even include the $2200 I paid for the printer. I sell 100 calendars at $20 each. That's $2000 that trickles back in. The $500 is my profit to keep for doing it. That's it, real world numbers and profit. I suspect Lori's numbers should work the same way. Any tooling or up front money should be funded by the owner - not paid for by the first few orders - that's a BAD way of running a business and it just gets you into trouble. If that's what you have done - change it - now....

Of course, I am very proud of my reputation in those communities and NEVER, NEVER, take anyone's money unless I have them printed and ready to ship. I feel guilty sometimes if they pay me on Saturday and I know the mail wont go out until Monday...

I have had some people say they never got them - I just send another one out and hope they aren't taking advantage - no questions asked.

No one is forcing Lori to make Fiero parts - its her choice. If no one made these windows, I guarantee the sun will still come up tomorrow.

But it looks bad if you have unhappy customers and you KNOW the customer is right to then be selling good product at a swap meet. Looks fishy at best. Those should have gone to make the already paid customers happy FIRST. Then, sell them at swap meets, and sell the bad ones for half price to those that don't need a show car or just want something for a window.

I have been in business long enough to know that budgets can be tight - but if inventory is all spoken for, that means the money has all been collected.

To me, my reputation is all that I have - you can't see me, see my life, see how hard I work, all that matters is the service I provide is top-notch, and if something is wrong, I make it right - right away! There are always people in this world that won't be happy no matter what you do - but in this case all I see is a customer who kept it quiet the first month and is now worried about not getting any money back.

For those defending her - I see some have bad windows too.... did you get good windows yet? How long will you wait?

As for this quote -

quote I would suggest that if you would have worked with Lori from the start, you may be in a different place right now

While trying to defend her, sir - you basically stated that she IS dragging it out longer as a punishment for complaining...

As far as Lori goes, openly stating that you won't take any of your personal money to make this right just sums up your inability to be a successful businesswoman - because this one set of windows is going to turn off a LOT of potential buyers....

As far as everyone else goes - I have been involved in LOTS of small run production stuff over the years. For every hundred people that will chime in "I want one" when some product is announced - about 3-5 will actually come through and pony up the cash. That is a fact any vendor will back me up on. EVeryone wants one until its time to put up.....

I hope Lori makes this right - either refund the money of those that want it - even if it takes a cash advance on a credit card to do so, or else its gonna be a long and painful road I think. This guy is just hacked off enough to make it a fight on principle, as opposed to just some poorly made windows....

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Todd Thorson
Current Fiero - 86 GT auto
http://www.toddsplace.com

[This message has been edited by tjthorson (edited 05-01-2006).]

You know, the problem here is that everyone seems to have an opinion....I especially enjoy comments from those not involved that only have the words written here to hyper-analyze. I too, could pick apart any thread here for the details...fortunately I have a better use for my time. The problem is that some of you posting do not know all of the facts and you do not know the conversations that are happening behind the scenes. My comments are based solely on the info I have.

As for the "you would be in a better place right now" statement I made. This makes no implications of the vendor's action or inaction....it simply states the fact that Tim has alienated everyone he has contacted, including me....I extended an olive branch to him and he thought it was wiser to go in a different direction. I hve been told that I was not the only one that initially told him this. The results he is experienceing are a function of his behaviors including the responsiveness of the vendor to his outrageous claims of fraud and lawsuit. If this cannot be understood by some, then I probably cannot make you understand. Try his tactic with any company anywhere, any size, any location and you will be met with similar results.....